Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
WAR will break the Casuals hate/fear PvP mold.
MrVicchio
Member Posts: 598
Why?
I know why, these are the same people that got me to love meaningful PVP through DAoC RVR. Only unlike DAoC, this game should break all but the most hardcore PVE's fear and/or hate of PVP.
How you ask?
Simple, they have eliminated the most jarring aspects of PVP through content driven to put the warfare into context and part of a rewarding story arc rather then just because, like so many games, or a an alternative grind for gear. Oh and the Chicken, one mustn't forget the Chicken. With Griefing countered so... visibly, so. nicely, the most annoying aspect of RVR/PVP play is gone. Being steamrolled and ganked by some lowlife with no skill, courage or honor.
It's sheer freaking genius is what it is. Players who always shy from PVP play almost always cite the Gankers, or the pointlessness of it all. Now I am sure there are other arguments, but those are a minority and really, you cannot please everyone. Just can't do it.
Always change your signature.
Comments
No one can say until it comes out really. I'd like it to be that way, but who knows.
Last paragraph somes up my exp with PVP
1) PvPers are on the most part, immature, anti-social brats - out of 10 years of MMOs, over 20-30 games played - ALL the same. Usually, teenie-boppers.
2) They gang-bang you - no honor! (not they they know what it is)
3) They gank you - no honor, again!
4) FFA PVP is a mess. Pointless, mindless, wreckless, out of control people killing for the sake of killing. You usually don't get gold, items, or anything either in return. People do it because it makes their online persona feel "tough", like bully's do in grade->high school... Any everyone LOVED them. Not.
5) My personal favorite, games that allow pvp in leveling zones. You're at 10% health, and just finished of a strong monster. Before you can even loot it, BAM, here comes the hiding pvp coward to finish off your remaining 10% hps.
6) Oh god, the teen-bopper bragging. WHO CARES. Kick my ass in real life, THEN I'll be impressed. Do it in a game, oh gawd, who the F cares? "I'll so pnwd you".. blah blah, and more AOL-speak. Can't stand it.
DAoC is the only game I've seen do PvP right, that I can remember. The ONLY one. Some others game close, but it never fully materialized. (bounties, etc). You just had bully's against other bully's.
What saved me? No pvp games, and instances. I could jump into an instance, explore, and go afk to settle things with my family, with no worries of being ganked while gone.
Please bring back the anti FFA games, where adventure/discovery what a large part of the game (UO, EQ, Horizons, etc), athough the early days of UO had the worst implements FFA pvp of any game ever. They learned from their mistakes, but 10 years later, other games STILL haven't. How many TEENs actually subscribe to games compared to their more mature counterparts? Looks like my 20+, 30+ MMO generation has been forgotten.
Honestly, I'm SICK of always waiting for a game to play. Played and bored of everything out there now, and all I do is read hype about games that are coming out in a year (they delayed 5 or more times, or worse, cencelled). I want to play something now.
Why can't there by mature servers.. no kiddies, no pvp, and faster and higher exp, loot, drop-rates for casual players like dads, and people with busy lives and so forth? The teenies would try to log into this server too, but to curb that, a damn level over time restriction!!.. so, you could play 8 hours a day if you wanted, but could only get so far, on THAT server, and there could be other servers for the power-gamers/ffa pvp/immature crowd.
I find myself playing only on private servers these days and not because they are free... because of the advanced rates. Who ever invented the (year to get to level xx mentality - EQ?) Also, people hate grinding so much, which should be called character development, but done badly, so they bot. What's the point of playing a game just to bot the first 30-odd levels? That's just a poorly designed game in my book.
Hmm, I gotta write a blog one of these days.
This is precisely how i feel this game is going to go, seemless pvp/pve experience with a decent community (hopefully), i have been on the recieving end of grief numerous times and its really not fun at all, i left eve because of griefing and i got annoyed with wow because of grief, i dont see why people do it for a "living" as some i have met on my travels seem to. its always the same names over and over again that haunt low level questing / grinding places and kill the little folks. im so glad they will be chikenified in WAR and it will hopefully drive these loosers away from the game if they cant indulge in their favorite passtime lol. and meaningfull pvp with decent rewards instead of paltry titles or crappy gear will be a breath of fresh air
so looking forward to WAR
Wishful thinking at it's best imo
We'll see when the game has been released for a while ^^
And your basis for this comment is....
Always change your signature.
And your basis for this comment is....
How funny, that's exactly how I wanted to quote your first post
I must admit my ignorance to what will be different in Warhammer?
Can anyone point me to a link about what the chickenification or whatever Mythic is trying to do? I am very interested.
I don't know what exactal triggers it but...
Say a capped character wanted to go grief the lower levels well you may try HOWEVER if you do you've angered the Chaos gods (why they actally want a fair fight is behond me) and get turned into the dreaded chaos chicken!!! Which I hope the lowers can kill (ahhh.. THATS why cuz it's funny :P)
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Create a "casual" server with only completely consensual PvP, faster leveling rates, etc.
but the most important point is that there is a "cap" on how much you can advance in a given period. That is the key to making a very "casual" server work.
If you make a quicker/easier server, power gamers will flock to it to max out quickly... so as you said, limit how much they can advance in a 24 hour period or something... genius.
Anywho, to the OP.
I'll be playing on a normal and on an open RvR server, but I agree with the OP that I think WAR is going to be the "holy grail" of meaningful, fair PvP for those of us who have "been there done that" in other MMOs over the years..
From "PvP means nothing" WoW to "Paying to be ganked" pre-Trammel UO, I've been there done that... hopfully WAR will be the game to bring me back into PvP
Generally speaking, the flaw in most previous games has been that leveling has been accomplished solely by doing PVE tasks for experience. PVP usually gains a player almost nothing in terms of experience therefore its avoided by players interested in leveling at a fast rate.
When someone comes along and tries to gank, its a huge annoyance, which is why many players have come to despise PVP.
My hope is that WAR will be different. We'll be rewarded for killing other players, not only in experience, but even in getting some random gear/gold. My worry is that somehow PVE activities will be more efficient than PVP, if so..then we're back to the same old problem.
Until we get a chance to play it we won't know if they've managed to come up with a game design that encourages all players to enjoy PVPing..... (including limiting ganking opportunities)....
Unfortunately, looks like we're going to be waiting until May or June (just my gut feel) before we get that chance.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This chickenification will occur when you traverse the lvl boundry's. For expl.. a max lvl wants to go watch lowbies fight it out for an objective when they get into the lower area they will be pooffed into a chicken.(from my understanding you will only be able to do 1hp of dmge in this form)
Now that being said my next delema is in figuring out how many im going to need in my group for that 1hp of dmge plus everyone else in my groups 1 hp of dmge its going to take to still gank newbs like you guys.
The thing I never could understand and devs even demonstrated this in real time on UO is that no matter the ganker or gank mob size you ALWAYS HAD the option to make a massive raid group to go gank THEM.
The problem with you people is that you never understood the value of numbers and coordination.
I played UO on GL and BC (huge guild) would raid our little 10 man guild at spawns everyday with 50+ people but because they sucked and never worked well together most of the time we owned them.
As for my expl up top UO devs release a harrower in open land T2A once and announced it to Tram and a ton of blues came out. We tried to take the harrower from them being the dominant guild at the time and couldn't only due to numbers.
So the next time you get ganked in a game and dont seek help well TBH its your own damn fault sorry to say.
I got ganked for weeks in fel yet gained some respect after a while and then became the red instead of getting ganked by him. Most people need to learn that yes it was like this in these times. If I was a king and I wanted someones land I TOOK it. Why would I ask. But if I was so evil noone could stand me a force will rise to defeat me. That being my point if you can't handle human nature I don't know what to tell you.
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
I think that there will be more tolerance between the players who generally like to PvP and the players who like to PvE. The reason? Simply put, everything done by both groups goes toward the war effort for your side. So, a PvP'er will appreciate the casual gamer who is doing things for the war effort.
Each zone will have PvE and PvP areas.
If higher level toon enters low level PvP area, poofed to chicken/chaos chicken.
High level players can still be in lower level PvE areas w/o being a chicken.
Saw it in an interview/something somewhere.
How it's going to work on Open RvR servers? I dunno... because you're always "flagged" for PvP on those servers, even if in PvE part of a zone.
I fully expect to see chicken raids. I full expect to take part in a chicken raid. Why? 100 chaos chickens invading the PvP area of a lower Tier zone = quite possibly the funniest thing that could ever happen, even when we get slaughtered horribly doing our 1hp per peck-damage.
There is nothing honorable or competitive about ganking. It doesn't "teach" you anything, it's not an experience that you learn from... it's you being killed and having no chance to defend yourself.
Pre-Trammel UO, you had to grind your skills on training dumbies until they were maxed from that, I think you could only get to 25 out of 100 or so... and grind your attributes like strength on mining random rocks on the very outskirts of town, so you could still run back into town if you saw a red and spam your "Guards!" macro...
And then wait for the monster attacks on the city, so you could build your skills on mobs without leaving town. Then, once you did all of that for a long while, you might have been able to survive going out of Brittania and fighting the red gank squads who had been around since Beta, because they didn't reset Beta characters...
but if you went solo you were toast anyway.
Trammel was the best thing to happen to UO, and anyone who says otherwise is probably an @$$hat ganker d-bag. Factions PvP was the second best thing, because it brought people back into Felucca and gave them meaningful PvP.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
I look forward to WAR's implementation of pvp. I have tried pvp on AO, EQ2, WoW, and Eve...none have really done much for me. AO was alright because you always did pvp with a group (unless you're suicidal) so even if you had twinks running around you could gang up on them. EQ2 and WoW were positively annoying...ganked by twinks with higher level characters providing them with 'support', you call for help and get ignored. Eve also wasn't bad, just the rest of the game wasn't interesting. I do need something besides PVP to do in a game. WAR has me curious, with the RVR system and a PVE system that supports the RVR goals.
I play games for fun; if all I'm doing is dying to someone who is better equipped, well that's not fun.
Many casuals players do not hate/fear PvP.
All casual players hate/fear WASTING TIME.
Some basement dweller who plays 4 hours a day doesn't care if they get ganked for a whole hour, they still have 3 hours of good playtime. For a casual player, that's their ENTIRE evening session down the drain.
Wasted time is why many casuals hate PvP gankers not any "fear". If they had the time they could deal with them just as easily as hardcores.
WAR not only alieviates this but also makes PvP more than a timesink. Most games force playersto pick - advance your character or PvP. Casual players can't waste their limited sessions on timesinks, so they often don't bother with PvP.
I agree with the OP's assertion. WAR will change all this if Mythic pulls it off. But I disagree with the OP's assessment on why casuals have traditionally avoided PvP. It's not because they fear it, it's because PvP in other games has been garbage.
I honestly believe that one can be casual AND have PvP. Honestly I feel from my time on WoW that PVE is a lot harder on casual players. Especially on the mega raiding guild etc.
Also, I dont believe in the plight of the casual player. We are not as bad off as some people think. I see a lot of posts about how casuals cannot compete against a "power gamer". However, I have not had such a problem and i pride myself on playing smart. I play with friends and work on group fundamentals and support in PvP, powergamers have a nasty tendency to rely too much on thier equipment and tend to fight solo.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
I really hope they can pull it all off,
really.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
Human nature differs for each human. That makes diversity and individuality a meaningful word among humans.
There are PVEers who do not care for PVP, each for his own reasons. They pay for their game account, they pick the gameplay they desire. Luckily in many games (WAR included I suppose), PVEers can go about their own business ignoring things they do not feel interested, including PVPers. There is no point in explaining why they did so, everybody has his own reason, and the samebody may have different reasons on each day he log in. That is why there are PVPers who plays PVE and vice versa.
There are many who glorify ganging lvl 1 new characters. If you like that, fine, but don't complain if the lvl 1's learn about it and go play elsewhere, in servers where this won't happen to them.
I do not think that everyone like the chaotic PVP days of UO. UO dwindled fast when EQ comes, most of the friends I know left for EQ, some actually left earlier, for strategic games like Master of Orion 2. Once in a while we look back at UO and think about the good old days when we only have UO and a 16k modem on a 386SX. Its nostalgia, a mood common among us old men chatting after a barbeque. It does not mean we will drop our Lotro/EQ2/WoW or whatever we are playing and go back to a UO classic. No, none among my friends really want to go back and play those chaotic games. We all have matured. We will still talk fondly about our kid days, climbing rocks with a backpack, in the same mood, but that means history recalling. AND ONLY.
Many (PVP including) games have matured over the years along with us aging. Totally formless structurelss PVP easily degenerates into total chaos, and not everyone likes it. Developers seems to feel that way too, and they are all coming up with numerous structures to keep PVP in place, and hopefully enjoyable to players from all walks of life. RVR of DAoC is one of the more successful system ever devised. Hopes are that the same success will be repeated with WAR. Fingers crossed.
If you think about it PvP will be in RvR designated areas that you can completely avoid, and if you want to PvP you can enter but you won't get ganked because you will know you are in a PvP area.
However, I would still like to see some servers where the whole game is FFA PvP. I know in games ganking can be bad, but I think when you are playing Realm Vs. Realm and you see an enemy you should be able to kill them. I like when you can't communicate with them also. There is a lot to balance though like keeping high levels from griefing and most systems are unrealistic like EQ2's level gap where people twink out a character a few levels above the norm for a zone and gank everyone they find, or WoW's old dishonor/honor thing which turned into Battleground grinding. I think if you are going to do it you should do it realistic and make it a true free for all with a law system similar to EVE where you lose what you are carrying, but players don't do it in highly secure areas, and a player can get through the game in fairly safe areas governed by some law. This won't be in Warhammer of course and i'm getting off topic.
I think the Warhammer setup is pretty solid when it comes to PVP.
Human nature differs for each human. That makes diversity and individuality a meaningful word among humans.
Agreed yet see statement above.
There are PVEers who do not care for PVP, each for his own reasons. They pay for their game account, they pick the gameplay they desire. Luckily in many games (WAR included I suppose), PVEers can go about their own business ignoring things they do not feel interested, including PVPers. There is no point in explaining why they did so, everybody has his own reason, and the samebody may have different reasons on each day he log in. That is why there are PVPers who plays PVE and vice versa.
And these games will never have substance or longevity.Its all about the MEMEME syndrome. The hardcore stuff teaches people to rely on thier counterparts (something that doesn't happen in Carebear mmo's as much) creating bonds and so forth.
And as for people who left uo I dont think the number people relate to lost subs is due so much to the pvp but more to do with newer graphical engines and so forth 360 environments. Ive never seen anyhting stateing this but I know thats why I left Went to L2 for graphics.
There are many who glorify ganging lvl 1 new characters. If you like that, fine, but don't complain if the lvl 1's learn about it and go play elsewhere, in servers where this won't happen to them.
First off I don't agree with ganking lvl 1 chars I gotta say that, but if you refer below you will see that I do think there has to be some type of segragation but it should be limited pushing people to unite. At no time in this era did many people "solo" per se. People would seek out groups and towns to establish a home.(granted you did have the ocational vagabond or outlaw/rogue) but they wouldn't try to gank a whole town they would come maybe cause some trouble maybe not then usually leave. These are the things I think need to be more closely looked at in terms of the separation of PVP to PVE.
I do not think that everyone like the chaotic PVP days of UO. UO dwindled fast when EQ comes, most of the friends I know left for EQ, some actually left earlier, for strategic games like Master of Orion 2. Once in a while we look back at UO and think about the good old days when we only have UO and a 16k modem on a 386SX. Its nostalgia, a mood common among us old men chatting after a barbeque. It does not mean we will drop our Lotro/EQ2/WoW or whatever we are playing and go back to a UO classic. No, none among my friends really want to go back and play those chaotic games. We all have matured. We will still talk fondly about our kid days, climbing rocks with a backpack, in the same mood, but that means history recalling. AND ONLY.
Many (PVP including) games have matured over the years along with us aging. Totally formless structurelss PVP easily degenerates into total chaos, and not everyone likes it. Developers seems to feel that way too, and they are all coming up with numerous structures to keep PVP in place, and hopefully enjoyable to players from all walks of life. RVR of DAoC is one of the more successful system ever devised. Hopes are that the same success will be repeated with WAR. Fingers crossed.
Now I must say I'm not trying to flame but making these games into something that is so far of from what it WAS like in these day in RL is taking away solid conflict components that make these MMORPG'sWithout conflict and social structure you have no REAL reason to fight for anything. I do think there can be a good mix and I'm hooping WAR has it nailed down but people need to understand that the pvp content needs to be accurate to create conflict between real people in order to have a shelf life otherwise it's do everthing and either quit or move on to the next game.
If one clan Hates another and not just cause of faction or what have you it will create its own content for the players with what is already in game.(expl.. Champ spawns in UO are still active after 5 yrs or so) thats why PVP survives there.
Now I don't want this to turn into a flame fest I am just discussing this heated topic I do hope war has good implementation of combining PVE/PVP but I cant understand why people want to dumb down and PVE'efy evey aspect of pvp to the point of grinding bordome.
If I can't loot your corpse whats the point of your Blacksmith making more armor and so on?? and if your BS can just run all over gods creation getting mats and I cant do anything to him why would we fight in the first place and please someone do not say honor points.
Now this is kind of where I mean Segregation needs to be done properly and the way War has it set up by areas seems good but A miner helping the War effort on the enemy faction should be vulnerable in some way you cant just give them a free pass to rome the land freely. Otherwise we are back to no reason for conflict.
Now I know in War its about capping your capitols city and all and thats great IMO I think it will work well with the experience they have on DaoC. But there should be more to it then just killing enough of the other side to get to that point. Back end warfare needs to be possible like cutting off supllies and controlling resources. This all makes for a more tactical game.
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
Some of you guys are really in the game world, in there year 2007 nobody cares about honor it's about most effective way to take out the enemy/target. If I can beat you 5-6 moves in a chess game and have no honor rather than giving you a chance to win for honor... no thanks i'd rather just be a normal guy playing a game and pvp and kill someone for fun.. Best thing about pvp is I can gank ppl like you who cry about honor lol It cracks me up.
Then you go on th eforums crying about getting ganked by me giving me a big smile
I think cowards like the games where you can't get ganked cause you don't have to fear nothing or be prepared for nothing or watch the enviroment I think these ppl are cowards and small brain people who can't think.
Thanks for the mature response Exneodeath, glad to see you're not trying to insult people.
I've stood my ground in the face of overwhelming odds, but it gets very tiresome to have to do that constantly and end up getting no where in the game. I'm not going to play a game where I have absolutely no chance of progressing because of the actions of some borderline sociopaths, that is a waste of my time and money. In games like WoW and EQ2 skill has very little to do with success, level and equipment do. It is very difficult to get established in these games unless you are there from the beginning.
And what is it with you so-called 'hardcore pvpers' insistance on using derogatory terms to describe those who don't subscribe to your views of what game play should be? All you do is alienate people.
Coward -
2. bully: somebody who harms or attacks people who are weaker or unable to defend themselvesDefinition:
1. somebody lacking courage: somebody regarded as fearful and uncourageous
3. anonymous enemy: somebody who anonymously harms those who cannot defend themselves
This was pulled strait from the dictionary. When people complain about getting ganked it usually falls under catagory number two (see above). People rarely complain about about dying to somebody their lvl in a normal fight.
"Then you go on th eforums crying about getting ganked by me giving me a big smile
"
Most would consider this narcissistic (here's the definition since you don't seem to understand the language you use daily).
2. personality disorder: in psychiatry, a personality disorder characterized by the patient's overestimation of his or her own appearance and abilities and an excessive need for admiration. In psychoanalytic theory, emphasis is placed on the element of self-directed sexual desire in the condition.Definition:
1. self-admiration: excessive self-admiration and self-centeredness
So in closing - Congrats your a self proclaimed Narcissistic Coward.
I think I like the initial option of signing up to play on a PvE server or a PvP server.
On a PvE server, you can run through 90% of the world without care... other than the environment.
On a PvP server, you can kill or be killed in 90% of the world by environment or players.
...
On a PvE server, you should have the option to flag yourself for PvP (PvP enabled). This means, you are open to attack from the opposing faction(s) players who are also PvP enabled.
On a PvP server, you don't get the option... you are flagged, automatically. The second you step outside of 'new player area', you are ready to rumble. (with certain conditions applying)
...
I like the concept of controlling PvP by level, however. Again, there is zero skill involved when a max level character kills a lowbie. It's stupid... period.
Maybe players should be within 10 or so levels of one another in order to be open to ganking?
As long as there is some kind of control system in place to prevent that type of garbage, I'm all for it.