Well EvE is a snadbox and it Works very well [partly thanks to 4-5 years of almost continuouse additions to content].
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Retired from: Neocron, Everquest, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, RF Online and Final Fantasy VII
I prefer a sandbox approach. It's not fair to say people don't want it, look at Ultima Online in it's day. I don't think anyone has brought out a sandbox fantasy game since. Maybe it's about time? I don't really see the point in grinding away, game after game, to collect better items then beat some big guy at the end for the uber item. *yawn* End games.....pfffft.
Sandbox is really not a cure for "grind." The sandbox games can be just as big a grind as level/class based. Grind like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One of the reasons I quit EVE was because after a while it felt like a grind. Every day that I logged on, I was defending the same bit of space (over and over and over and over again). After a while, I just didn't log in anymore.
Whether the mechanism is called experience points, levels, skill points, skills, or whatever, the purpose is to quantify an avatars battle prowess or some other activity. The name is meaningless. If progressing the avatar is unfun, it is going to be a grind. Instead of concentrating on a particular structure, I would prefer the developer spend time on making combat and progression enjoyable, immersive, and engaging.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Sandbox is really not a cure for "grind." The sandbox games can be just as big a grind as level/class based. Grind like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One of the reasons I quit EVE was because after a while it felt like a grind. Every day that I logged on, I was defending the same bit of space (over and over and over and over again). After a while, I just didn't log in anymore.
Duh! EvE is a PvP game of course you will get a lot of this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Retired from: Neocron, Everquest, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, RF Online and Final Fantasy VII
... If you could actually take over the world in WoW that would be an end game. If contested zones we actually contestable that would be an end game. As it is now you can go to some zones for the purpose of pointless PvP in Wow. Oh yeah sure you can get points to get more loot but that is just a variation on the evercamp tread mill really.
That is along the lines I was going to post. If you could actually take over cities and such it would be better, along the lines of what Warhammer is doing.
Sandbox is really not a cure for "grind." The sandbox games can be just as big a grind as level/class based. Grind like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One of the reasons I quit EVE was because after a while it felt like a grind. Every day that I logged on, I was defending the same bit of space (over and over and over and over again). After a while, I just didn't log in anymore.
Duh! EvE is a PvP game of course you will get a lot of this.
The purpose of the paragraph that you quoted was to show that even sandbox, skill-based, non-progression oriented (progression is time based and independent of the player's actions), FFA PVP games can be considered a grind by someone.
I enjoy PVP in MMORPGs, but it should be more than just territory control.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
I think for any game to keep players happy and active, a game needs to continually implement new game content and something for players to set a goal towards. So many games set the effort on the players by leveling up, getting loot, getting experience, etc. I like one attribute in SWG which was finding quality ores for crafting. It was refreshing to have the quality of the environment make a difference in the quality of the products I crafted. So many games currently equate time = success and not in other terms at all. I do enjoy games which implement dependability from other players support like crafting and fighting, to diplomacy.
I don’t’ necessarily believe that Eve-Online is a sandbox game after playing it for 4 years. After the 2nd year into playing it, I felt it lost it’s ‘be anything, do anything, dream anything’ and just became a global PvP based war from the noob zones to 0.0 space.
Everyone wants to be uber. Everyone wants to be a hero. That game does not allow that.
I actually have to disagree. Imo sandbox games have more opportunities for players to become heroes in their virtual worlds than they would in class-based, item-centric, linear questing worlds. And that only because sandbox games tend to go deeper in a community feel and versatility of skills and abilities opposed to being carbon copies of every other 'lvl 70 paladin'. Accomplishements get noted more often due to tight(er))knitness and your actions might actually affect the gameworld. (Although it goes without saying that a big deciding factor in this may be the average lower population of said sandbox games) When your virtual world's economy and evolution of the game world and storyline completely depends on players, recognition ain't far away.
If you want to be uber, a hero, recognition ... then work for it, do something no one else can or could do; something current players will remember you for, something future players will be curious after. Be it slaying an army, craft a superior item or building or woe your enemies with diplomacy. Hell, I've known players in sandbox games that amply got into fighting, magics or crafting but were real narative and orative talents and got known, stature, respected for their gameworld politics. These things are (again imo) way easier to accomplish in sandbox games or dynamic worlds than the static variety. Stature and fame doesn't get gained by simply accomplishing something but by making a difference or impact and making people remember you for it.
Everyone thinking they can become uber and a hero by just reaching the top tier levels needs to get their head out of their bumholes. They mean nothing more to the other Don Quichotte's out there chasing the same windmills who populate the gameworld. The False Uberness and Heroism those people wish to attain by simply progressing through the game is a nasty side effect of their dillussion they're still playing single player rpg's or fps games.
p.s. Neanderthal, thumbs up for your posts. I enjoyed reading them!
p.p.s. bahamut1; not entirely disagreeing with you since you've made good points, but that one line stood out for me.
Sandbox is really not a cure for "grind." The sandbox games can be just as big a grind as level/class based. Grind like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One of the reasons I quit EVE was because after a while it felt like a grind. Every day that I logged on, I was defending the same bit of space (over and over and over and over again). After a while, I just didn't log in anymore.
If you choose to defend space then that is your CHOICE. Great thing about sandbox games is that you are not forced into doing anything. There are other options you could have chosen like pirating for example. You just have to use your brain rather than be lead into a certain way of playing.
Being the #1 killer has to MEAN something beyond stats on a killboard.
Unfortunately for this to happen there has to be a "bottom" or an underclass, people that have to follow your orders or suffer the consequences.
In short there has to be winners and losers, haves and have-nots.
At the same time the people on the bottom have to have a path up the ladder, a means of becoming more powerful to have a chance at someday knocking the King off his throne and becoming the new Despot.
Eve-Online is my ideal as to what an endgame should be.
END GAME is not a concept invented by any game, especially not any MMO. It is a referance to the objective. The reason you are doing what you do.
Bahamut1, I loved your post it managed to spell out most of the major issues in providing a mass apppeal game. The whole problem with end game in a MMO, is the players. The bulk of them want to play a game that is basicly an interactive movie. They don't really want a challenge & they certainly don't want to come up with objectives or character goals that require more thought than " I need to Level". I would love a wide open game where end game was a concept PLAYERS used in referance to thier characters goals & methods to achieve them. "Sort of like real life"
Comments
Well EvE is a snadbox and it Works very well [partly thanks to 4-5 years of almost continuouse additions to content].
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired from: Neocron, Everquest, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, RF Online and Final Fantasy VII
Currently Playing : EvE Online.
Whether the mechanism is called experience points, levels, skill points, skills, or whatever, the purpose is to quantify an avatars battle prowess or some other activity. The name is meaningless. If progressing the avatar is unfun, it is going to be a grind. Instead of concentrating on a particular structure, I would prefer the developer spend time on making combat and progression enjoyable, immersive, and engaging.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Duh! EvE is a PvP game of course you will get a lot of this.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired from: Neocron, Everquest, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, RF Online and Final Fantasy VII
Currently Playing : EvE Online.
That is along the lines I was going to post. If you could actually take over cities and such it would be better, along the lines of what Warhammer is doing.
AKA - Bruxail
Duh! EvE is a PvP game of course you will get a lot of this.
The purpose of the paragraph that you quoted was to show that even sandbox, skill-based, non-progression oriented (progression is time based and independent of the player's actions), FFA PVP games can be considered a grind by someone.
I enjoy PVP in MMORPGs, but it should be more than just territory control.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
I think for any game to keep players happy and active, a game needs to continually implement new game content and something for players to set a goal towards. So many games set the effort on the players by leveling up, getting loot, getting experience, etc. I like one attribute in SWG which was finding quality ores for crafting. It was refreshing to have the quality of the environment make a difference in the quality of the products I crafted. So many games currently equate time = success and not in other terms at all. I do enjoy games which implement dependability from other players support like crafting and fighting, to diplomacy.
I don’t’ necessarily believe that Eve-Online is a sandbox game after playing it for 4 years. After the 2nd year into playing it, I felt it lost it’s ‘be anything, do anything, dream anything’ and just became a global PvP based war from the noob zones to 0.0 space.
Eve-Online, EQ2, DnL, SWG (Dead), Guild Wars, Anarchy Online, EQ, DAoC, Planet Side, WoW, LOTR, Tabula Rasa.
I actually have to disagree. Imo sandbox games have more opportunities for players to become heroes in their virtual worlds than they would in class-based, item-centric, linear questing worlds. And that only because sandbox games tend to go deeper in a community feel and versatility of skills and abilities opposed to being carbon copies of every other 'lvl 70 paladin'. Accomplishements get noted more often due to tight(er))knitness and your actions might actually affect the gameworld. (Although it goes without saying that a big deciding factor in this may be the average lower population of said sandbox games) When your virtual world's economy and evolution of the game world and storyline completely depends on players, recognition ain't far away.
If you want to be uber, a hero, recognition ... then work for it, do something no one else can or could do; something current players will remember you for, something future players will be curious after. Be it slaying an army, craft a superior item or building or woe your enemies with diplomacy. Hell, I've known players in sandbox games that amply got into fighting, magics or crafting but were real narative and orative talents and got known, stature, respected for their gameworld politics. These things are (again imo) way easier to accomplish in sandbox games or dynamic worlds than the static variety. Stature and fame doesn't get gained by simply accomplishing something but by making a difference or impact and making people remember you for it.
Everyone thinking they can become uber and a hero by just reaching the top tier levels needs to get their head out of their bumholes. They mean nothing more to the other Don Quichotte's out there chasing the same windmills who populate the gameworld. The False Uberness and Heroism those people wish to attain by simply progressing through the game is a nasty side effect of their dillussion they're still playing single player rpg's or fps games.
p.s. Neanderthal, thumbs up for your posts. I enjoyed reading them!
p.p.s. bahamut1; not entirely disagreeing with you since you've made good points, but that one line stood out for me.
To my mind any endgame has to be PvP-oriented.
Getting better equipment to get better equipment to get better equipment is not an endgame.
Taking over the universe is an endgame.
Lording over the other players and creating vassal states is an endgame.
Having enough money and power to manifest your will upon the gameworld is an endgame.
Even Arenas are not good enough.
It has to be more than just being the #1 killer.
Being the #1 killer has to MEAN something beyond stats on a killboard.
Unfortunately for this to happen there has to be a "bottom" or an underclass, people that have to follow your orders or suffer the consequences.
In short there has to be winners and losers, haves and have-nots.
At the same time the people on the bottom have to have a path up the ladder, a means of becoming more powerful to have a chance at someday knocking the King off his throne and becoming the new Despot.
Eve-Online is my ideal as to what an endgame should be.
END GAME is not a concept invented by any game, especially not any MMO. It is a referance to the objective. The reason you are doing what you do.
Bahamut1, I loved your post it managed to spell out most of the major issues in providing a mass apppeal game. The whole problem with end game in a MMO, is the players. The bulk of them want to play a game that is basicly an interactive movie. They don't really want a challenge & they certainly don't want to come up with objectives or character goals that require more thought than " I need to Level". I would love a wide open game where end game was a concept PLAYERS used in referance to thier characters goals & methods to achieve them. "Sort of like real life"