In games like WoW and EQ2 skill has very little to do with success, level and equipment do. It is very difficult to get established in these games unless you are there from the beginning.
This is not true for WoW anymore, if anything it's the opposite.
Firstly the biggest point: The expansion pretty much whiped any progress people made off the slate prett ymuch making any server = new server. The next expansion will do the same by raising the level to 80.
Secondly, since raiding gear these days is great for PvE it's missing essential pvP stats that the PvP gear has that you gain through PvP (Focus Stamina and resilience). They also changed it so you can get a Season 1 honor set with honor which is not that hard to get. S1->S3 is a difference but not insurmountable by a longshot + if yo uplay any area you'll be acquiring higher pieces yourself as well not to mention people in full S3 are a rare sight in general anyway.
To Sophist: no, no flaming. I am just saying there are people who do not care for PVE, and they have as much righ to enjoy a game as those who focus on PVP. Some games, notably RVR games from DAoC provides quite a good balance. In the "PVE" server, which basically means RVR servers, PVEers can stay inside the non RVR zone and enjoy the game, which PVPers have RVR zones at various lvls to fight for forts keeps and roll out their seige engines.
Sorry I might be using very personal terms, pretending I am a PVEer and talking to you like a PVPer, I was trying to illustrate using more direct terms, nothing against you. Actually I agree to your basic stance, that both are part of the game of WAR.
I do like to point out that there are those who pride on ganking, and thought that its a great honor to beat people and come to great measures to demonstrate their pride. They post here like Exneodeath, or trash talk in channels, or even resort to insulting gestures or moves like lying on a female body. Its the excessive moves and the excessive insults (like the use of the word "coward", "small brain people by exneodeath) that ruins the PVP game. They enjoy the game at the expense of people, exploiting game bugs, or whatever means they can lay hands on just to maximize their "enjoyment" with no respect for others. I for one do not enjoy being with them, so its good they stay in their own world of FFA PVP servers, while I play in my RVR servers, PVP or PVE as I deem pleased.
Its a game, after I log out, its gone, nothing to be proud of, nothing worth boasting online, on a message board, or in RL. In my humble opinion, there are lots more worth my pride that some pixels in a game, a game I will play on and off for months and move on.
Some of you guys are really in the game world, in there year 2007 nobody cares about honor it's about most effective way to take out the enemy/target. If I can beat you 5-6 moves in a chess game and have no honor rather than giving you a chance to win for honor... no thanks i'd rather just be a normal guy playing a game and pvp and kill someone for fun.. Best thing about pvp is I can gank ppl like you who cry about honor lol It cracks me up.
Then you go on th eforums crying about getting ganked by me giving me a big smile I think cowards like the games where you can't get ganked cause you don't have to fear nothing or be prepared for nothing or watch the enviroment I think these ppl are cowards and small brain people who can't think.
Coward -
Definition:
1. somebody lacking courage: somebody regarded as fearful and uncourageous
2. bully: somebody who harms or attacks people who are weaker or unable to defend themselves
3. anonymous enemy: somebody who anonymously harms those who cannot defend themselves
This was pulled strait from the dictionary. When people complain about getting ganked it usually falls under catagory number two (see above). People rarely complain about about dying to somebody their lvl in a normal fight.
"Then you go on th eforums crying about getting ganked by me giving me a big smile "
Most would consider this narcissistic (here's the definition since you don't seem to understand the language you use daily).
Definition:
1. self-admiration: excessive self-admiration and self-centeredness
2. personality disorder: in psychiatry, a personality disorder characterized by the patient's overestimation of his or her own appearance and abilities and an excessive need for admiration. In psychoanalytic theory, emphasis is placed on the element of self-directed sexual desire in the condition.
So in closing - Congrats your a self proclaimed Narcissistic Coward.
PWNT
I see this thread has become very... interesting. And combative.
I just wish to pose the question.... how does it require "skill" and/or "intelligence" to kill someone that has absolutely no chance of defending themselves? Is this not simply a slaughter? Would it not require skill and intelligence to defeat an evenly matched foe?
Let me, once again, define "ganking" as I see it. It's killing another player that has no chance of defending themselves, simply for the joy of it. "Griefing" is continuing this behavior for more then a single instance (i.e. spawn camping, etc.)
Ambushing another player of similar level/power? That's just good tactics. Outnumbering another player or group of players of similar level/power? That's just good tactics. Good tactics takes skill + intelligence.
Ganking/griefing take neither. Hence, I must agree with netevoni that most griefers/gankers are Narcissistic Cowards.
This chickenification will occur when you traverse the lvl boundry's. For expl.. a max lvl wants to go watch lowbies fight it out for an objective when they get into the lower area they will be pooffed into a chicken.(from my understanding you will only be able to do 1hp of dmge in this form) Now that being said my next delema is in figuring out how many im going to need in my group for that 1hp of dmge plus everyone else in my groups 1 hp of dmge its going to take to still gank newbs like you guys.
The thing I never could understand and devs even demonstrated this in real time on UO is that no matter the ganker or gank mob size you ALWAYS HAD the option to make a massive raid group to go gank THEM. The problem with you people is that you never understood the value of numbers and coordination. I played UO on GL and BC (huge guild) would raid our little 10 man guild at spawns everyday with 50+ people but because they sucked and never worked well together most of the time we owned them. As for my expl up top UO devs release a harrower in open land T2A once and announced it to Tram and a ton of blues came out. We tried to take the harrower from them being the dominant guild at the time and couldn't only due to numbers.
So the next time you get ganked in a game and dont seek help well TBH its your own damn fault sorry to say.
I got ganked for weeks in fel yet gained some respect after a while and then became the red instead of getting ganked by him. Most people need to learn that yes it was like this in these times. If I was a king and I wanted someones land I TOOK it. Why would I ask. But if I was so evil noone could stand me a force will rise to defeat me. That being my point if you can't handle human nature I don't know what to tell you.
The ultimate problem is mmo's do a pretty bad job of mimicing in real life. As you said, if you were a king and simply wanted a land, you would -try- to take it. Probably, you'd lose the support of the people unless you tossed propaganda or forced them to go to arms and send supplies. You'd also need to able to support the region, would need enough men to protect your kingdom and the one you conqured. Also, there's no levels in real life, you very well might lose, and what of allies or others watching and waiting for you to slip?
The point is, the mental decision to invade goes through a very different process then ganking. It's a horrible comparision. The point of ganking is fighting someone that can't beat you. Period. There's no point to ganking aside from emotional in most mmo's that allow it.
I personally don't care one way or another since all I lose is maybe a walk towards the area I was in or perhaps have to leave to another zone. As a real gamer, I have nothing to lose by losing to someone it's impossible to win against, so why should I as a gamer care? It would be different if we were on equal terms and I got raped, it would be obvious the skill (or gear -_-) difference was large, and then it's my loss and I chalk it up for them. That gets people respect, not chopping at grass and yelling in victory.
Also, even with guilds most people care about themselves most and others only if it helps themselves to some degree. Its quite difficult to gather a bunch of lowbies from what they are doing, enough to even have a chance of killing a ganker. And it's never simple as you think, I'll go ahead and lower myself a few pegs by using wow as an example. Should a group of lowbies kill a higher level that was ganking him, his teenage rage would likely prompt him to come back and gank worse (with caution this time) or, the more common tactic, call other gankers to your side.
In wow, people do that even during even matches. I recall a moment during my WoW career in which a 70 hunter was ganking my 66 in nagrand while I was questing, waiting only til I was low on mana and hp before attack for whatever reason. One time she got me fighting at half health and mana, and I fought back with a mob on me. Killed her, killed the mob, and waited. She game back, and after I bowed to her knowing full well she was going to rest and attack me again, I let her. Killed her again while full life, and she simply called three other 70's to camp me. /shrug. Logged on my war and happily went o my to shadowfang.
The point is, whatever the reason, fighting against gankers ends up being more pointless then anything else. There needs to be something on the game's end to discourage it.
I honestly dont't think there will be that big a differance between the casuals and the PVP. Look at Guildwars, even the most casual player does pvp from time to time, and WAR is intended to gradually get even the most hardcore PVEer into PVP.
Thats completly fine. The problem here is , however, that there is nothing casual about being killed by something you can not kill and nothing hardcore about killing something that can not kill you.
I honestly dont't think there will be that big a differance between the casuals and the PVP. Look at Guildwars, even the most casual player does pvp from time to time, and WAR is intended to gradually get even the most hardcore PVEer into PVP.
Thats completly fine. The problem here is , however, that there is nothing casual about being killed by something you can not kill and nothing hardcore about killing something that can not kill you.
Something needs to be implemented.
QFT
What has been implemented is the chicken/chaos chicken system.
The only question that remains in my opinion will be: how great is the power difference between players in the same Tier, but different levels?
For example, 40 ranks (levels) in 4 tiers, safe to assume Tier 1 = Level 1-10, Tier 2 = 11-20 etc.
We know that if a level 11+ tries to go into PvP area of Tier 1 zone, they will be chickenified.
But what about a level 10 versus a level 5? How great will the power difference be? Will the level 5 stand a chance? Should they? Will all PvP in the Tier be once people reach the top level or two (9/10 for Tier 1, 19/20 for Tier 2 etc) or will people go 1-40 all PvP?
Even more pressing, on a open RvR server, where you are PvP flagged all the time, even in the PvE area of a zone, will level 9-10 players be able to effectively gank/grief level 5 players all day long? Is this a bad thing?
In games like WoW and EQ2 skill has very little to do with success, level and equipment do. It is very difficult to get established in these games unless you are there from the beginning.
This is not true for WoW anymore, if anything it's the opposite....
I was actually referring to world PvP, should have mentioned that. Blizzard has done not a bad job in balancing the individual classes for BG/Arena PvP.
By choosing to have as many classes as they do, Mythic will have their hands full trying to balance individual/small group PvP.
The other thing that interests me in RvR is that it's PvP will mean something. I feel this is missing from most games today.
By choosing to have as many classes as they do, Mythic will have their hands full trying to balance individual/small group PvP. The other thing that interests me in RvR is that it's PvP will mean something. I feel this is missing from most games today.
Yes, I agree.
It will be difficult -- maybe impossible -- to balance each class versus every other class one-on-one.
What they will most likely have to do is balance on a Realm vs. Realm basis. If they can do that, that will be good for the game.
If you try to run around solo in RvR and try to wtfpwn players -- well, good luck with that. RvR is generally a realm effort and that's what it should be.
And, I do seriously agree and affirm that even PvE-loving Casual Carebears (no offense) will, if given a chance, truly grow to love the RvR style of PvP combat.
It's fun. It's exciting. It's meaningful for you and your Realm.
I honestly dont't think there will be that big a differance between the casuals and the PVP. Look at Guildwars, even the most casual player does pvp from time to time, and WAR is intended to gradually get even the most hardcore PVEer into PVP.
Thats completly fine. The problem here is , however, that there is nothing casual about being killed by something you can not kill and nothing hardcore about killing something that can not kill you.
Something needs to be implemented.
QFT
What has been implemented is the chicken/chaos chicken system.
The only question that remains in my opinion will be: how great is the power difference between players in the same Tier, but different levels?
For example, 40 ranks (levels) in 4 tiers, safe to assume Tier 1 = Level 1-10, Tier 2 = 11-20 etc.
We know that if a level 11+ tries to go into PvP area of Tier 1 zone, they will be chickenified.
But what about a level 10 versus a level 5? How great will the power difference be? Will the level 5 stand a chance? Should they? Will all PvP in the Tier be once people reach the top level or two (9/10 for Tier 1, 19/20 for Tier 2 etc) or will people go 1-40 all PvP?
Even more pressing, on a open RvR server, where you are PvP flagged all the time, even in the PvE area of a zone, will level 9-10 players be able to effectively gank/grief level 5 players all day long? Is this a bad thing?
WAR is really RVR not PVP. 1-on-1 is not the major scenario. Take DAoC as illustration, its not wise moving around the frontier alone, apart from stealthers. When there is a a call to the frontier, people may head out to the battlefield singly but there are usually a lot more players of the same realm moving nearby, towards the same destination. A lvl 50 attacking a lvl 45 singly is not a sure win, if there are more lvl 40s of the same side nearby.
1-on-1 a lvl 10 will own a lvl 5, most likely, but in a RVR setting the lvl 5 does not need expose himself to that situation.
Generally speaking, the flaw in most previous games has been that leveling has been accomplished solely by doing PVE tasks for experience. PVP usually gains a player almost nothing in terms of experience therefore its avoided by players interested in leveling at a fast rate. When someone comes along and tries to gank, its a huge annoyance, which is why many players have come to despise PVP. My hope is that WAR will be different. We'll be rewarded for killing other players, not only in experience, but even in getting some random gear/gold. My worry is that somehow PVE activities will be more efficient than PVP, if so..then we're back to the same old problem. Until we get a chance to play it we won't know if they've managed to come up with a game design that encourages all players to enjoy PVPing..... (including limiting ganking opportunities).... Unfortunately, looks like we're going to be waiting until May or June (just my gut feel) before we get that chance.
But look at EQ2 PvP. They gave xp for pvp kills, and good xp too. What happened? People started disabling all xp so that they could stay at level 20 and gank people for fun and to farm status.
Part of the problem is leveling itself. Part of the problem is gear. People on this site like to snub Guild Wars but when it comes to stuff like this they nailed most everything. Admittedly they do not do "World" PvP. However all the same concerns pop up no matter what kind of PvP it is. It may not be reasonable for people to expect "fairness" in anything except match play but when did people start being reasonable?
It always amazed me how poeple on the WoW boards could say that the Test Servers had the best PvP because everyone was max level and had standard gear and then complain when people told them to go play Guild Wars if that is what they liked.
The fact is that many people know that many of the restrictions of Guild Wars are not just a good idea but flat out necessary to obtain the kind og good PvP they want. Yet at the same time they are not willing to accept the other consequences those restrictions cause.
They both want a game that works like a WoW test server and yet would throw a hissy fit if the game worked that way. This is because of the addictive nature of some MMORPG mechanics. Progression is usually part of an addictive paradigm. Addicts are irrational and will try to smash their addiction into anything even when its bad. They simply disconnect their brain from the consequences.
In general PvE style progression and PvP mix very badly. Yet many MMORPG players will demand either PvP progression or PvP that work in line with PvE progression. This is because they are addicts, not because this is a good idea. Invariably the progression is what makes the PvP so bad, they even say so. And then they go right on asking for more progression, because they need their fix. And anything that doesn't give them their fix is bad, no matter how good it is.
This game is on the top of my list right now because I can get into pvp right away (and not have to level to 60 first). And switch off from pvp to pve whenever I want. Sometimes I’m in the mood for one or the other.
And this looks like a game I can have fun playing without playing 80 hours a week.
Generally speaking, the flaw in most previous games has been that leveling has been accomplished solely by doing PVE tasks for experience. PVP usually gains a player almost nothing in terms of experience therefore its avoided by players interested in leveling at a fast rate. When someone comes along and tries to gank, its a huge annoyance, which is why many players have come to despise PVP. My hope is that WAR will be different. We'll be rewarded for killing other players, not only in experience, but even in getting some random gear/gold. My worry is that somehow PVE activities will be more efficient than PVP, if so..then we're back to the same old problem. Until we get a chance to play it we won't know if they've managed to come up with a game design that encourages all players to enjoy PVPing..... (including limiting ganking opportunities).... Unfortunately, looks like we're going to be waiting until May or June (just my gut feel) before we get that chance.
But look at EQ2 PvP. They gave xp for pvp kills, and good xp too. What happened? People started disabling all xp so that they could stay at level 20 and gank people for fun and to farm status.
Part of the problem is leveling itself. Part of the problem is gear. People on this site like to snub Guild Wars but when it comes to stuff like this they nailed most everything. Admittedly they do not do "World" PvP. However all the same concerns pop up no matter what kind of PvP it is. It may not be reasonable for people to expect "fairness" in anything except match play but when did people start being reasonable?
It always amazed me how poeple on the WoW boards could say that the Test Servers had the best PvP because everyone was max level and had standard gear and then complain when people told them to go play Guild Wars if that is what they liked.
The fact is that many people know that many of the restrictions of Guild Wars are not just a good idea but flat out necessary to obtain the kind og good PvP they want. Yet at the same time they are not willing to accept the other consequences those restrictions cause.
They both want a game that works like a WoW test server and yet would throw a hissy fit if the game worked that way. This is because of the addictive nature of some MMORPG mechanics. Progression is usually part of an addictive paradigm. Addicts are irrational and will try to smash their addiction into anything even when its bad. They simply disconnect their brain from the consequences.
In general PvE style progression and PvP mix very badly. Yet many MMORPG players will demand either PvP progression or PvP that work in line with PvE progression. This is because they are addicts, not because this is a good idea. Invariably the progression is what makes the PvP so bad, they even say so. And then they go right on asking for more progression, because they need their fix. And anything that doesn't give them their fix is bad, no matter how good it is.
EQ 2 should have never let players 'disable' their experience..... you're describing the 'twink' phenomenon, where players like to stop at the top of a certain level bracket, and trick out their character with all sorts of uber gear/enchantments that the average player doesn't have to give themselves an unfair advantage. Its not a practice I subscribe to, at least until players reach max level....then trick them out to the nines for all I care.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I know why, these are the same people that got me to love meaningful PVP through DAoC RVR. Only unlike DAoC, this game should break all but the most hardcore PVE's fear and/or hate of PVP.
How you ask?
Simple, they have eliminated the most jarring aspects of PVP through content driven to put the warfare into context and part of a rewarding story arc rather then just because, like so many games, or a an alternative grind for gear. Oh and the Chicken, one mustn't forget the Chicken. With Griefing countered so... visibly, so. nicely, the most annoying aspect of RVR/PVP play is gone. Being steamrolled and ganked by some lowlife with no skill, courage or honor.
It's sheer freaking genius is what it is. Players who always shy from PVP play almost always cite the Gankers, or the pointlessness of it all. Now I am sure there are other arguments, but those are a minority and really, you cannot please everyone. Just can't do it.
Last paragraph somes up my exp with PVP
1) PvPers are on the most part, immature, anti-social brats - out of 10 years of MMOs, over 20-30 games played - ALL the same. Usually, teenie-boppers.
2) They gang-bang you - no honor! (not they they know what it is)
3) They gank you - no honor, again!
4) FFA PVP is a mess. Pointless, mindless, wreckless, out of control people killing for the sake of killing. You usually don't get gold, items, or anything either in return. People do it because it makes their online persona feel "tough", like bully's do in grade->high school... Any everyone LOVED them. Not.
5) My personal favorite, games that allow pvp in leveling zones. You're at 10% health, and just finished of a strong monster. Before you can even loot it, BAM, here comes the hiding pvp coward to finish off your remaining 10% hps.
6) Oh god, the teen-bopper bragging. WHO CARES. Kick my ass in real life, THEN I'll be impressed. Do it in a game, oh gawd, who the F cares? "I'll so pnwd you".. blah blah, and more AOL-speak. Can't stand it.
DAoC is the only game I've seen do PvP right, that I can remember. The ONLY one. Some others game close, but it never fully materialized. (bounties, etc). You just had bully's against other bully's.
What saved me? No pvp games, and instances. I could jump into an instance, explore, and go afk to settle things with my family, with no worries of being ganked while gone.
Please bring back the anti FFA games, where adventure/discovery what a large part of the game (UO, EQ, Horizons, etc), athough the early days of UO had the worst implements FFA pvp of any game ever. They learned from their mistakes, but 10 years later, other games STILL haven't. How many TEENs actually subscribe to games compared to their more mature counterparts? Looks like my 20+, 30+ MMO generation has been forgotten.
Honestly, I'm SICK of always waiting for a game to play. Played and bored of everything out there now, and all I do is read hype about games that are coming out in a year (they delayed 5 or more times, or worse, cencelled). I want to play something now.
Why can't there by mature servers.. no kiddies, no pvp, and faster and higher exp, loot, drop-rates for casual players like dads, and people with busy lives and so forth? The teenies would try to log into this server too, but to curb that, a damn level over time restriction!!.. so, you could play 8 hours a day if you wanted, but could only get so far, on THAT server, and there could be other servers for the power-gamers/ffa pvp/immature crowd.
I find myself playing only on private servers these days and not because they are free... because of the advanced rates. Who ever invented the (year to get to level xx mentality - EQ?) Also, people hate grinding so much, which should be called character development, but done badly, so they bot. What's the point of playing a game just to bot the first 30-odd levels? That's just a poorly designed game in my book.
Eh, PvPers are only as imature as the people playing. There is really no difference between someone that PvEs and PvPs in level of maturity.
I've ways resonded kindly in fights. Mo matter the situation. Though I have to say I did roll one of the cheapest classes on WoW which of-course everyone hated (Pally). Though I loved the whole ideal of taking on and winning a 3v1 against a warrior and 2 rogues.
I don't know if you conduct yourself well, no matter who it is they'll respect you in the battlefield.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
I do like the chickenification idea, but I think you should be able to gank newbs once in a while.
The problem is when you can just camp out and do it over and over. If you have to go through a long hard pain in the arse convoluted seires of actions, and then you can gank some newbs, but if you get killed, then you won't be able to come back for a while until you do all that crap again, that would be OK.
It's kind of half way between newbs are totally protected, and high levels can just gank newbs all day long.
Coming from Vanguard's and EQ2's pvp servers. I am genuinely glad that they put this in place in the game, because it in affect makes it where the higher level ball sweats who like ganking new players can actually concentrate on the war effort instead of being a new player griefer.
I for one never found it fun for a player to interupt another player's leveling and enjoyment of a game period and I hope by Khaine, I find a newby killer ingame on opposite factions so I can grief the hell out of them everytime they log in.
Coming from Vanguard's and EQ2's pvp servers. I am genuinely glad that they put this in place in the game, because it in affect makes it where the higher level ball sweats who like ganking new players can actually concentrate on the war effort instead of being a new player griefer.
I know why, these are the same people that got me to love meaningful PVP through DAoC RVR. Only unlike DAoC, this game should break all but the most hardcore PVE's fear and/or hate of PVP.
How you ask?
Simple, they have eliminated the most jarring aspects of PVP through content driven to put the warfare into context and part of a rewarding story arc rather then just because, like so many games, or a an alternative grind for gear. Oh and the Chicken, one mustn't forget the Chicken. With Griefing countered so... visibly, so. nicely, the most annoying aspect of RVR/PVP play is gone. Being steamrolled and ganked by some lowlife with no skill, courage or honor.
It's sheer freaking genius is what it is. Players who always shy from PVP play almost always cite the Gankers, or the pointlessness of it all. Now I am sure there are other arguments, but those are a minority and really, you cannot please everyone. Just can't do it.
I agree. Actually, I'm not a big fan of PvP either. I hated pvp in games like Lineage 2 because of griefing. Why should I pay monthly for a game where some high level kills me and I lose exp and money for it.
Why should I have to feel like crap when I log on because some clan has me B-listed for some frivolous action such as "talking to the wrong girl".
But playing WoW, I've gotten to enjoy PvP a little bit more because the environment of PvP is controlled. I can decide when Im ready to participate. The act of PvP isnt forced on me.
I'm drawn to WAR for some reason; Even though I dont like PvP that much. But all the features they are adding. Especially the whole "chicken" thing just sounds so appealing. Like I could really get into the whole war and pvp aspect of the game.
I think I'm living proof of your claim that most PvE-ers who shy away from PvP do so because of Gankers. It's like throwing a kid into the deep end of the pool and demanding he swim for the very first time. You never tell the kid when you're going to throw him into the pool, it could be now, could be later, could be at 3:30 in the morning.
PvP is always just shoved in your face and leaving you in a mental wreck. But with WAR and games like WoW, it feels more comforting and welcoming. I think WAR could be a game that gets more people to enjoy PvP.
PvP is really one of the best parts of any game. Please note I say PvP and not griefing or random killing. The sad thing is that griefers are probably the same guys that some of us older gamers were when we were young. You know what I mean, last picked for sports, bullied etc. Except that instead of dealing and growing past it they vent by being exactly like the people that they're being put down by, except they do it online. Yeah take that one Freud (eugh I hate Freud)
there is no doubt that this game will bring in players of diffrent types of background, the question though is , will there be enough content to make everyone happy ? , and a second question would also be will there be too much content that will make people unhappy ?
like most mmorpgs they attract a certain age group / status / hobbie / trend / aspect , you can make examples for every mmorpgs that out to current date. but the say that the current market is being dominated by only 1 game over another dose not reach true to all customers.
one player may say , "i love to pve and colect gear " , and then you may have another say the oppesite.
to break down the idea that a casual gamer will want one with out the other is silly at best because you could be talking about anyone really.
if the marketing is successful and accessable to a majority of the computer systems, then it will be a hit .
Comments
This is not true for WoW anymore, if anything it's the opposite.
Firstly the biggest point: The expansion pretty much whiped any progress people made off the slate prett ymuch making any server = new server. The next expansion will do the same by raising the level to 80.
Secondly, since raiding gear these days is great for PvE it's missing essential pvP stats that the PvP gear has that you gain through PvP (Focus Stamina and resilience). They also changed it so you can get a Season 1 honor set with honor which is not that hard to get. S1->S3 is a difference but not insurmountable by a longshot + if yo uplay any area you'll be acquiring higher pieces yourself as well not to mention people in full S3 are a rare sight in general anyway.
To Sophist: no, no flaming. I am just saying there are people who do not care for PVE, and they have as much righ to enjoy a game as those who focus on PVP. Some games, notably RVR games from DAoC provides quite a good balance. In the "PVE" server, which basically means RVR servers, PVEers can stay inside the non RVR zone and enjoy the game, which PVPers have RVR zones at various lvls to fight for forts keeps and roll out their seige engines.
Sorry I might be using very personal terms, pretending I am a PVEer and talking to you like a PVPer, I was trying to illustrate using more direct terms, nothing against you. Actually I agree to your basic stance, that both are part of the game of WAR.
I do like to point out that there are those who pride on ganking, and thought that its a great honor to beat people and come to great measures to demonstrate their pride. They post here like Exneodeath, or trash talk in channels, or even resort to insulting gestures or moves like lying on a female body. Its the excessive moves and the excessive insults (like the use of the word "coward", "small brain people by exneodeath) that ruins the PVP game. They enjoy the game at the expense of people, exploiting game bugs, or whatever means they can lay hands on just to maximize their "enjoyment" with no respect for others. I for one do not enjoy being with them, so its good they stay in their own world of FFA PVP servers, while I play in my RVR servers, PVP or PVE as I deem pleased.
Its a game, after I log out, its gone, nothing to be proud of, nothing worth boasting online, on a message board, or in RL. In my humble opinion, there are lots more worth my pride that some pixels in a game, a game I will play on and off for months and move on.
Coward -
2. bully: somebody who harms or attacks people who are weaker or unable to defend themselvesDefinition:
1. somebody lacking courage: somebody regarded as fearful and uncourageous
3. anonymous enemy: somebody who anonymously harms those who cannot defend themselves
This was pulled strait from the dictionary. When people complain about getting ganked it usually falls under catagory number two (see above). People rarely complain about about dying to somebody their lvl in a normal fight.
"Then you go on th eforums crying about getting ganked by me giving me a big smile
"
Most would consider this narcissistic (here's the definition since you don't seem to understand the language you use daily).
2. personality disorder: in psychiatry, a personality disorder characterized by the patient's overestimation of his or her own appearance and abilities and an excessive need for admiration. In psychoanalytic theory, emphasis is placed on the element of self-directed sexual desire in the condition.Definition:
1. self-admiration: excessive self-admiration and self-centeredness
So in closing - Congrats your a self proclaimed Narcissistic Coward.
PWNT
I see this thread has become very... interesting. And combative.
I just wish to pose the question.... how does it require "skill" and/or "intelligence" to kill someone that has absolutely no chance of defending themselves? Is this not simply a slaughter? Would it not require skill and intelligence to defeat an evenly matched foe?
Let me, once again, define "ganking" as I see it. It's killing another player that has no chance of defending themselves, simply for the joy of it. "Griefing" is continuing this behavior for more then a single instance (i.e. spawn camping, etc.)
Ambushing another player of similar level/power? That's just good tactics. Outnumbering another player or group of players of similar level/power? That's just good tactics. Good tactics takes skill + intelligence.
Ganking/griefing take neither. Hence, I must agree with netevoni that most griefers/gankers are Narcissistic Cowards.
The ultimate problem is mmo's do a pretty bad job of mimicing in real life. As you said, if you were a king and simply wanted a land, you would -try- to take it. Probably, you'd lose the support of the people unless you tossed propaganda or forced them to go to arms and send supplies. You'd also need to able to support the region, would need enough men to protect your kingdom and the one you conqured. Also, there's no levels in real life, you very well might lose, and what of allies or others watching and waiting for you to slip?
The point is, the mental decision to invade goes through a very different process then ganking. It's a horrible comparision. The point of ganking is fighting someone that can't beat you. Period. There's no point to ganking aside from emotional in most mmo's that allow it.
I personally don't care one way or another since all I lose is maybe a walk towards the area I was in or perhaps have to leave to another zone. As a real gamer, I have nothing to lose by losing to someone it's impossible to win against, so why should I as a gamer care? It would be different if we were on equal terms and I got raped, it would be obvious the skill (or gear -_-) difference was large, and then it's my loss and I chalk it up for them. That gets people respect, not chopping at grass and yelling in victory.
Also, even with guilds most people care about themselves most and others only if it helps themselves to some degree. Its quite difficult to gather a bunch of lowbies from what they are doing, enough to even have a chance of killing a ganker. And it's never simple as you think, I'll go ahead and lower myself a few pegs by using wow as an example. Should a group of lowbies kill a higher level that was ganking him, his teenage rage would likely prompt him to come back and gank worse (with caution this time) or, the more common tactic, call other gankers to your side.
In wow, people do that even during even matches. I recall a moment during my WoW career in which a 70 hunter was ganking my 66 in nagrand while I was questing, waiting only til I was low on mana and hp before attack for whatever reason. One time she got me fighting at half health and mana, and I fought back with a mob on me. Killed her, killed the mob, and waited. She game back, and after I bowed to her knowing full well she was going to rest and attack me again, I let her. Killed her again while full life, and she simply called three other 70's to camp me. /shrug. Logged on my war and happily went o my to shadowfang.
The point is, whatever the reason, fighting against gankers ends up being more pointless then anything else. There needs to be something on the game's end to discourage it.
I honestly dont't think there will be that big a differance between the casuals and the PVP.
Look at Guildwars, even the most casual player does pvp from time to time, and WAR is intended to gradually get even the most hardcore PVEer into PVP.
Thats completly fine. The problem here is , however, that there is nothing casual about being killed by something you can not kill and nothing hardcore about killing something that can not kill you.
Something needs to be implemented.
Thats completly fine. The problem here is , however, that there is nothing casual about being killed by something you can not kill and nothing hardcore about killing something that can not kill you.
Something needs to be implemented.
QFT
What has been implemented is the chicken/chaos chicken system.
The only question that remains in my opinion will be: how great is the power difference between players in the same Tier, but different levels?
For example, 40 ranks (levels) in 4 tiers, safe to assume Tier 1 = Level 1-10, Tier 2 = 11-20 etc.
We know that if a level 11+ tries to go into PvP area of Tier 1 zone, they will be chickenified.
But what about a level 10 versus a level 5? How great will the power difference be? Will the level 5 stand a chance? Should they? Will all PvP in the Tier be once people reach the top level or two (9/10 for Tier 1, 19/20 for Tier 2 etc) or will people go 1-40 all PvP?
Even more pressing, on a open RvR server, where you are PvP flagged all the time, even in the PvE area of a zone, will level 9-10 players be able to effectively gank/grief level 5 players all day long? Is this a bad thing?
This is not true for WoW anymore, if anything it's the opposite....
I was actually referring to world PvP, should have mentioned that. Blizzard has done not a bad job in balancing the individual classes for BG/Arena PvP.By choosing to have as many classes as they do, Mythic will have their hands full trying to balance individual/small group PvP.
The other thing that interests me in RvR is that it's PvP will mean something. I feel this is missing from most games today.
Yes, I agree.
It will be difficult -- maybe impossible -- to balance each class versus every other class one-on-one.
What they will most likely have to do is balance on a Realm vs. Realm basis. If they can do that, that will be good for the game.
If you try to run around solo in RvR and try to wtfpwn players -- well, good luck with that. RvR is generally a realm effort and that's what it should be.
And, I do seriously agree and affirm that even PvE-loving Casual Carebears (no offense) will, if given a chance, truly grow to love the RvR style of PvP combat.
It's fun. It's exciting. It's meaningful for you and your Realm.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Thats completly fine. The problem here is , however, that there is nothing casual about being killed by something you can not kill and nothing hardcore about killing something that can not kill you.
Something needs to be implemented.
QFT
What has been implemented is the chicken/chaos chicken system.
The only question that remains in my opinion will be: how great is the power difference between players in the same Tier, but different levels?
For example, 40 ranks (levels) in 4 tiers, safe to assume Tier 1 = Level 1-10, Tier 2 = 11-20 etc.
We know that if a level 11+ tries to go into PvP area of Tier 1 zone, they will be chickenified.
But what about a level 10 versus a level 5? How great will the power difference be? Will the level 5 stand a chance? Should they? Will all PvP in the Tier be once people reach the top level or two (9/10 for Tier 1, 19/20 for Tier 2 etc) or will people go 1-40 all PvP?
Even more pressing, on a open RvR server, where you are PvP flagged all the time, even in the PvE area of a zone, will level 9-10 players be able to effectively gank/grief level 5 players all day long? Is this a bad thing?
WAR is really RVR not PVP. 1-on-1 is not the major scenario. Take DAoC as illustration, its not wise moving around the frontier alone, apart from stealthers. When there is a a call to the frontier, people may head out to the battlefield singly but there are usually a lot more players of the same realm moving nearby, towards the same destination. A lvl 50 attacking a lvl 45 singly is not a sure win, if there are more lvl 40s of the same side nearby.
1-on-1 a lvl 10 will own a lvl 5, most likely, but in a RVR setting the lvl 5 does not need expose himself to that situation.
Part of the problem is leveling itself. Part of the problem is gear. People on this site like to snub Guild Wars but when it comes to stuff like this they nailed most everything. Admittedly they do not do "World" PvP. However all the same concerns pop up no matter what kind of PvP it is. It may not be reasonable for people to expect "fairness" in anything except match play but when did people start being reasonable?
It always amazed me how poeple on the WoW boards could say that the Test Servers had the best PvP because everyone was max level and had standard gear and then complain when people told them to go play Guild Wars if that is what they liked.
The fact is that many people know that many of the restrictions of Guild Wars are not just a good idea but flat out necessary to obtain the kind og good PvP they want. Yet at the same time they are not willing to accept the other consequences those restrictions cause.
They both want a game that works like a WoW test server and yet would throw a hissy fit if the game worked that way. This is because of the addictive nature of some MMORPG mechanics. Progression is usually part of an addictive paradigm. Addicts are irrational and will try to smash their addiction into anything even when its bad. They simply disconnect their brain from the consequences.
In general PvE style progression and PvP mix very badly. Yet many MMORPG players will demand either PvP progression or PvP that work in line with PvE progression. This is because they are addicts, not because this is a good idea. Invariably the progression is what makes the PvP so bad, they even say so. And then they go right on asking for more progression, because they need their fix. And anything that doesn't give them their fix is bad, no matter how good it is.
This game is on the top of my list right now because I can get into pvp right away (and not have to level to 60 first). And switch off from pvp to pve whenever I want. Sometimes I’m in the mood for one or the other.
And this looks like a game I can have fun playing without playing 80 hours a week.
Part of the problem is leveling itself. Part of the problem is gear. People on this site like to snub Guild Wars but when it comes to stuff like this they nailed most everything. Admittedly they do not do "World" PvP. However all the same concerns pop up no matter what kind of PvP it is. It may not be reasonable for people to expect "fairness" in anything except match play but when did people start being reasonable?
It always amazed me how poeple on the WoW boards could say that the Test Servers had the best PvP because everyone was max level and had standard gear and then complain when people told them to go play Guild Wars if that is what they liked.
The fact is that many people know that many of the restrictions of Guild Wars are not just a good idea but flat out necessary to obtain the kind og good PvP they want. Yet at the same time they are not willing to accept the other consequences those restrictions cause.
They both want a game that works like a WoW test server and yet would throw a hissy fit if the game worked that way. This is because of the addictive nature of some MMORPG mechanics. Progression is usually part of an addictive paradigm. Addicts are irrational and will try to smash their addiction into anything even when its bad. They simply disconnect their brain from the consequences.
In general PvE style progression and PvP mix very badly. Yet many MMORPG players will demand either PvP progression or PvP that work in line with PvE progression. This is because they are addicts, not because this is a good idea. Invariably the progression is what makes the PvP so bad, they even say so. And then they go right on asking for more progression, because they need their fix. And anything that doesn't give them their fix is bad, no matter how good it is.
EQ 2 should have never let players 'disable' their experience..... you're describing the 'twink' phenomenon, where players like to stop at the top of a certain level bracket, and trick out their character with all sorts of uber gear/enchantments that the average player doesn't have to give themselves an unfair advantage. Its not a practice I subscribe to, at least until players reach max level....then trick them out to the nines for all I care."True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Last paragraph somes up my exp with PVP
1) PvPers are on the most part, immature, anti-social brats - out of 10 years of MMOs, over 20-30 games played - ALL the same. Usually, teenie-boppers.
2) They gang-bang you - no honor! (not they they know what it is)
3) They gank you - no honor, again!
4) FFA PVP is a mess. Pointless, mindless, wreckless, out of control people killing for the sake of killing. You usually don't get gold, items, or anything either in return. People do it because it makes their online persona feel "tough", like bully's do in grade->high school... Any everyone LOVED them. Not.
5) My personal favorite, games that allow pvp in leveling zones. You're at 10% health, and just finished of a strong monster. Before you can even loot it, BAM, here comes the hiding pvp coward to finish off your remaining 10% hps.
6) Oh god, the teen-bopper bragging. WHO CARES. Kick my ass in real life, THEN I'll be impressed. Do it in a game, oh gawd, who the F cares? "I'll so pnwd you".. blah blah, and more AOL-speak. Can't stand it.
DAoC is the only game I've seen do PvP right, that I can remember. The ONLY one. Some others game close, but it never fully materialized. (bounties, etc). You just had bully's against other bully's.
What saved me? No pvp games, and instances. I could jump into an instance, explore, and go afk to settle things with my family, with no worries of being ganked while gone.
Please bring back the anti FFA games, where adventure/discovery what a large part of the game (UO, EQ, Horizons, etc), athough the early days of UO had the worst implements FFA pvp of any game ever. They learned from their mistakes, but 10 years later, other games STILL haven't. How many TEENs actually subscribe to games compared to their more mature counterparts? Looks like my 20+, 30+ MMO generation has been forgotten.
Honestly, I'm SICK of always waiting for a game to play. Played and bored of everything out there now, and all I do is read hype about games that are coming out in a year (they delayed 5 or more times, or worse, cencelled). I want to play something now.
Why can't there by mature servers.. no kiddies, no pvp, and faster and higher exp, loot, drop-rates for casual players like dads, and people with busy lives and so forth? The teenies would try to log into this server too, but to curb that, a damn level over time restriction!!.. so, you could play 8 hours a day if you wanted, but could only get so far, on THAT server, and there could be other servers for the power-gamers/ffa pvp/immature crowd.
I find myself playing only on private servers these days and not because they are free... because of the advanced rates. Who ever invented the (year to get to level xx mentality - EQ?) Also, people hate grinding so much, which should be called character development, but done badly, so they bot. What's the point of playing a game just to bot the first 30-odd levels? That's just a poorly designed game in my book.
Hmm, I gotta write a blog one of these days.
Ganking is Fun.
Eh, PvPers are only as imature as the people playing. There is really no difference between someone that PvEs and PvPs in level of maturity.
I've ways resonded kindly in fights. Mo matter the situation. Though I have to say I did roll one of the cheapest classes on WoW which of-course everyone hated (Pally). Though I loved the whole ideal of taking on and winning a 3v1 against a warrior and 2 rogues.
I don't know if you conduct yourself well, no matter who it is they'll respect you in the battlefield.
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
I do like the chickenification idea, but I think you should be able to gank newbs once in a while.
The problem is when you can just camp out and do it over and over. If you have to go through a long hard pain in the arse convoluted seires of actions, and then you can gank some newbs, but if you get killed, then you won't be able to come back for a while until you do all that crap again, that would be OK.
It's kind of half way between newbs are totally protected, and high levels can just gank newbs all day long.
MMORPG Maker
Coming from Vanguard's and EQ2's pvp servers. I am genuinely glad that they put this in place in the game, because it in affect makes it where the higher level ball sweats who like ganking new players can actually concentrate on the war effort instead of being a new player griefer.
I for one never found it fun for a player to interupt another player's leveling and enjoyment of a game period and I hope by Khaine, I find a newby killer ingame on opposite factions so I can grief the hell out of them everytime they log in.
Yeah I can't wait to watch gankers go chicken.
Always change your signature.
I agree. Actually, I'm not a big fan of PvP either. I hated pvp in games like Lineage 2 because of griefing. Why should I pay monthly for a game where some high level kills me and I lose exp and money for it.
Why should I have to feel like crap when I log on because some clan has me B-listed for some frivolous action such as "talking to the wrong girl".
But playing WoW, I've gotten to enjoy PvP a little bit more because the environment of PvP is controlled. I can decide when Im ready to participate. The act of PvP isnt forced on me.
I'm drawn to WAR for some reason; Even though I dont like PvP that much. But all the features they are adding. Especially the whole "chicken" thing just sounds so appealing. Like I could really get into the whole war and pvp aspect of the game.
I think I'm living proof of your claim that most PvE-ers who shy away from PvP do so because of Gankers. It's like throwing a kid into the deep end of the pool and demanding he swim for the very first time. You never tell the kid when you're going to throw him into the pool, it could be now, could be later, could be at 3:30 in the morning.
PvP is always just shoved in your face and leaving you in a mental wreck. But with WAR and games like WoW, it feels more comforting and welcoming. I think WAR could be a game that gets more people to enjoy PvP.
PvP is really one of the best parts of any game. Please note I say PvP and not griefing or random killing. The sad thing is that griefers are probably the same guys that some of us older gamers were when we were young. You know what I mean, last picked for sports, bullied etc. Except that instead of dealing and growing past it they vent by being exactly like the people that they're being put down by, except they do it online. Yeah take that one Freud (eugh I hate Freud)
______________________________
WAR is coming. Look busy.
there is no doubt that this game will bring in players of diffrent types of background, the question though is , will there be enough content to make everyone happy ? , and a second question would also be will there be too much content that will make people unhappy ?
like most mmorpgs they attract a certain age group / status / hobbie / trend / aspect , you can make examples for every mmorpgs that out to current date. but the say that the current market is being dominated by only 1 game over another dose not reach true to all customers.
one player may say , "i love to pve and colect gear " , and then you may have another say the oppesite.
to break down the idea that a casual gamer will want one with out the other is silly at best because you could be talking about anyone really.
if the marketing is successful and accessable to a majority of the computer systems, then it will be a hit .
thats my two cents. how bout you !!?!