Originally posted by Teiraa This poll is flawed any way. Just read what the Bioware devs say about MMORPG developing, and you'll know it will be neither pre-cu SWG, nor KOTOR, nor a hybrid. It will be basically a more or less heavily modified WOW with more emphasis on "telling a story". So LotRo will probably come close.
Which is actually fine by me. I thought that LOTRO had an interesting concept going with telling a story as you adventure. I just hope Bioware will pump it up a couple ten notches lol! oh, and hopefully make a good crafting system as well as some form of housing where I can deposit/decorate stuff. Yeah, yeah, I know they said in one interview they weren't looking for housing necessarily, neither was LOTRO if I remember correctly, yet they're still going to put some form of housing to the style of DAoC, which is how housing should be made in a MMO game to begin with.
Companies go where the money is. In this case, the number of potential mmo players and money that would generate far exceeds the Kotor rpg player base.
That being said, game design is not necessarily either / or. Various play styles can and are incorporated into today's mmo's, and I see no reason why this would not be the case in a KOTOR mmo.
So pissing off 200.000 people to try and be like Blizzard was a success ? , look again.
Developers should look more to the community than to what other companies decide to make, i mean let WoW have their immature kids playing, and let the SWG players play their game.
Personally i still dont understand why Smedley havent been fired yet for his disaster moves.
SWG Pre-CU was the most perfect Sandbox game , until a certain somebody got greedy and shot him self in the head practially.
Companies go where the money is. In this case, the number of potential mmo players and money that would generate far exceeds the Kotor rpg player base.
That being said, game design is not necessarily either / or. Various play styles can and are incorporated into today's mmo's, and I see no reason why this would not be the case in a KOTOR mmo.
So pissing off 200.000 people to try and be like Blizzard was a success ? , look again.
Developers should look more to the community than to what other companies decide to make, i mean let WoW have their immature kids playing, and let the SWG players play their game.
Personally i still dont understand why Smedley havent been fired yet for his disaster moves.
SWG Pre-CU was the most perfect Sandbox game , until a certain somebody got greedy and shot him self in the head practially.
I don't see where Terranah said the NGE was a success. In fact, I see no mention of the NGE at all in Terranah's post. All I read is a true statement that companies will go where the money is most likely to be had, followed by an opinion that a balanced game can accomadate multiple play styles -in this case, sandbox and linear.
Developers need more than community to decide what type of game to create. The fact is, MMOs are mighty expensive. As much as some of you believe game companies should be altruistic to your desires, in the real world, game companies are out to make money. They require a massive payback, sooner than later. This is why you will continue to see more of the same rather than more innovation. It's faster, cheaper, with less risk.
Why wasn't Smed fired? I'll bet that despite the massive drop in subscriptions, the NGE acheived its goal numbers of reducing cost and becoming marginally profitable. I'm sure no one is doing backflips over SWG numbers, but the fact that it is still around and so is Smed, tells me they're managing to squeeze some cash out of it.
"Don't hold breath about another KOTOR game coming from Bioware" - Chris Preistly "Bioware is more intrested in pursueing development of it's own Intellectual properties" - James Henly
[Mid 2003]
KOTOR Fan: OMG OMG MORE KOTOR PLZ!!
BioWare Exec #1: No, no more KOTOR from us ever!
BioWare Exec #2: Indeed, LucasArts was a bit of a pain in the ass to work with on that.
BioWare Exec #1: We wound up having to just reuse the plotline from NWN, lol.
BioWare Exec #2: Well hey, it worked. We won a billion awards and sold a billion copies of the game. SOE even wants to take HK-47 and slip him into an expansion. The Lucas is pleased so much they actually want us to do a sequel!
BioWare Exec #1: Yeah, but we nearly lost our souls in the process with the first game. Fuck that. Mr. Lucas has one powerful grip. Let's just dump KOTOR on Obsidian. Jade Empire FTW, IMO. LOL!
BioWare Exec #2: lol.
[Apr 2005]
SWG Crafters: WTF?!?!?
SOE Execs: Nothing to worry about folks, no really stop /quitting, plz. Game is much better now, IMHO.
[Sep 2005]
GreenMarine: Hmmm... lol /ninjavanish
[Nov 2005]
SWG Fans: WTF?!?!?
PC Gamer Reviewer: NGE? 17%, lol. srsly.
Random SOE Exec: (You know I think we made a mistake here)
Smedley: SILENCE, WHELP! /forcechoke lol
Tiggs: Fuck this. /quit
[Early 2007]
Current SWG Fans: Yay! The game is actually improving! Come back and enjoy it!
SWG Vets: I guess it's easy to improve on zero, lol.
Current SWG Fans: No, really, the game is getting better.
SWG Vets: You guys are retarded, lol.
LucasArts Execs: Hm, even though we're fixing the game with a new set of enthusiastic staff that are introducing new content and making this desirable gameplay system work, people are still avoiding and badmouthing the game. Quick, SOE, try the carrot trick again!
SOE Execs: Here vets! Here vets! *whistles, dangling multiple veteran trial periods like a carrot*
SWG Vets: Typical. /flamewar, lol.
SOE Execs: (This doesn't appear to be working.)
LucasArts Execs: *menacing glare*
[Mid to late 2007]
LucasArts Execs: BioWare. How are you folks doing? Been a while. So... yeah. KOTOR? MMO?
BioWare Exec #1: You've got to be out of your fucking mind.
BioWare Exec #2: Yeah, we're not that stupid. Not even for a million dollars.
LucasArts Execs: I see... how about five million?
BioWare Exec #1: lol
BioWare Exec #2: ...
LucasArts Execs: Ten million?
BioWare Exec #1: (I like where this is going, actually)
BioWare Exec #2: Sorry, but I'm going to have to give you a 'fuck no.'
LucasArts Exec #1: (This isn't working. We need to pull out the 'big guns.')
LucasArts Exec #2: Ok, ok. Ten million *AND* we'll throw in some free hookers. Triple D, serious stuff.
BioWare Execs: Free hookers? Well, why didn't you say so!
LucasArts Exec #1: (That one always gets them!)
LucasArts Exec #2: (Yeah, I remember how Smedley's face lit up when I mentioned it. Priceless. I got a phone video, you want to see?)
DISCLAIMER: Some parts of the preceeding timeline may or may not have happened. If it actually did, I must admit that I fear for all of us.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
These two interviews completely depressed me. And what is really strange is the men behind sandbox SWG type games seemed totally against that genre.
Its clear from these interviews we wont be getting a sandbox MMO. Its clear its going to be a WoW clone with heavy emphasis on forced questing.
I guess us SWG refugees will continue to look for a home. Very sad...
Yea, kinda depressed me too. All I could think of, was a WOW, NGE highbreed with a KOTOR type story line, and everyone was carrying a lightsaber. Not a good vision.
I'm glad people are learning lessons from WoW...there are alot of lessons to be learned. But I am worried by the amount of 'dumbing down' Bioware wants to do for their MMO.
"[paraphrasing] People don't want 10 choices, they want 1 or 2; 4 at most. All choices should have good results"
Are you kidding me? Isn't that what the NGE was? Sure, learn lessons from WoW, but you'd also benefit from learning what NOT to do by looking at SWG: NGE.
I think the major issue with a KOTOR MMO would honestly be the thousands of SWG vets. I can already see the thousands of people flooding the forums trying to change the game into pre nge swg. If Bioware was smart they wouldn't try to make a star wars MMO at the point of a gun.
I'm glad people are learning lessons from WoW...there are alot of lessons to be learned. But I am worried by the amount of 'dumbing down' Bioware wants to do for their MMO. "[paraphrasing] People don't want 10 choices, they want 1 or 2; 4 at most. All choices should have good results" Are you kidding me? Isn't that what the NGE was? Sure, learn lessons from WoW, but you'd also benefit from learning what NOT to do by looking at SWG: NGE.
Please don't tell me that was an actual quote. I'm getting far to disillusioned with this industry
I'll say this at the start: I'm an SWG pre-CU vet, and I judge MMOs by that standard. I think that there is a great market for a Star Wars MMO ever since the SoE disaster struck SWG. I understand people's fears that the forums will be filled with hordes of SWG refugees pressuring for another pre-CU. I love KotOR, and it as a pretty unique and different system from SWG. I believe that KotOR has the potential to redefine what a good Star Wars MMO really should be. Lets face it, while SWG was certainly the best MMO of its time, it had a significant amount of problem areas:
No collision system, people shooting through houses
unpredictable economy (devs had no idea how good stuff was going to be because of how the resources worked)
no dual wielding
overpowered buffs
anti-wookiee racists. I mean come on! its a fucking MMO, people should be tolerant
The KotOR system has a very different kind of character customization when compared to that of SWG, but a KotOR MMO with multiple classes has the potential to have just as much variability. Think about it, you have feats, skill, and force powers to choose from. With different kinds of classes you could potentially add things other than force powers (for the non jedi classes). This means, that even within classes, there could be a huge degree of customization. The game is based heavily off the D20 system, so why not add multiclassing like with Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, cause, like, who gives a fuck about the MMO?). The only thing that I can really see problems with is the zoning, if they do it like they did in the first 2 KotORs, and the fact that a big part of KotOR was the party members. They probably shouldn't stick with the turn based combat either.
There is, of course, the chance that they are not working on a KotOR MMO at all, but they should be. Think about it, if half the people here are for it, that must represent a small portion of MMORPG.com that is for it, and an even smaller portion of the greater online community who would be interested in such a game. The market is definitely there.
I'm glad people are learning lessons from WoW...there are alot of lessons to be learned. But I am worried by the amount of 'dumbing down' Bioware wants to do for their MMO. "[paraphrasing] People don't want 10 choices, they want 1 or 2; 4 at most. All choices should have good results" Are you kidding me? Isn't that what the NGE was? Sure, learn lessons from WoW, but you'd also benefit from learning what NOT to do by looking at SWG: NGE.
Please don't tell me that was an actual quote. I'm getting far to disillusioned with this industry
Its not an actual quote, its a paraphrase. That means that it contains the same information, but has a different sentence structure and avoids original wording.
Oronisi: so many SWG vets loved the ability to choose from 32 professions. It was the choice of creating a character that really fit the individual player as opposed to an archetypal character that allowed the player to really feel immersed in the game. I think that choice is the key to bringing a diverse crowd to an MMO, because it allows each and every person to get exactly what they want from the game. Balancing those choices, is, of course, the hard part, but thats why we pay monthly fees.
"Don't hold breath about another KOTOR game coming from Bioware" - Chris Preistly "Bioware is more intrested in pursueing development of it's own Intellectual properties" - James Henly
[Mid 2003]
KOTOR Fan: OMG OMG MORE KOTOR PLZ!!
BioWare Exec #1: No, no more KOTOR from us ever!
BioWare Exec #2: Indeed, LucasArts was a bit of a pain in the ass to work with on that.
BioWare Exec #1: We wound up having to just reuse the plotline from NWN, lol.
BioWare Exec #2: Well hey, it worked. We won a billion awards and sold a billion copies of the game. SOE even wants to take HK-47 and slip him into an expansion. The Lucas is pleased so much they actually want us to do a sequel!
BioWare Exec #1: Yeah, but we nearly lost our souls in the process with the first game. Fuck that. Mr. Lucas has one powerful grip. Let's just dump KOTOR on Obsidian. Jade Empire FTW, IMO. LOL!
BioWare Exec #2: lol.
[Apr 2005]
SWG Crafters: WTF?!?!?
SOE Execs: Nothing to worry about folks, no really stop /quitting, plz. Game is much better now, IMHO.
[Sep 2005]
GreenMarine: Hmmm... lol /ninjavanish
[Nov 2005]
SWG Fans: WTF?!?!?
PC Gamer Reviewer: NGE? 17%, lol. srsly.
Random SOE Exec: (You know I think we made a mistake here)
Smedley: SILENCE, WHELP! /forcechoke lol
Tiggs: Fuck this. /quit Priceless!
[Early 2007]
Current SWG Fans: Yay! The game is actually improving! Come back and enjoy it!
SWG Vets: I guess it's easy to improve on zero, lol.
Current SWG Fans: No, really, the game is getting better.
SWG Vets: You guys are retarded, lol.
LucasArts Execs: Hm, even though we're fixing the game with a new set of enthusiastic staff that are introducing new content and making this desirable gameplay system work, people are still avoiding and badmouthing the game. Quick, SOE, try the carrot trick again!
SOE Execs: Here vets! Here vets! *whistles, dangling multiple veteran trial periods like a carrot*
SWG Vets: Typical. /flamewar, lol.
SOE Execs: (This doesn't appear to be working.)
LucasArts Execs: *menacing glare*
[Mid to late 2007]
LucasArts Execs: BioWare. How are you folks doing? Been a while. So... yeah. KOTOR? MMO?
BioWare Exec #1: You've got to be out of your fucking mind.
BioWare Exec #2: Yeah, we're not that stupid. Not even for a million dollars.
LucasArts Execs: I see... how about five million?
BioWare Exec #1: lol
BioWare Exec #2: ...
LucasArts Execs: Ten million?
BioWare Exec #1: (I like where this is going, actually)
BioWare Exec #2: Sorry, but I'm going to have to give you a 'fuck no.'
LucasArts Exec #1: (This isn't working. We need to pull out the 'big guns.')
LucasArts Exec #2: Ok, ok. Ten million *AND* we'll throw in some free hookers. Triple D, serious stuff.
BioWare Execs: Free hookers? Well, why didn't you say so!
LucasArts Exec #1: (That one always gets them!)
LucasArts Exec #2: (Yeah, I remember how Smedley's face lit up when I mentioned it. Priceless. I got a phone video, you want to see?)
DISCLAIMER: Some parts of the preceeding timeline may or may not have happened. If it actually did, I must admit that I fear for all of us.
I'll say this at the start: I'm an SWG pre-CU vet, and I judge MMOs by that standard. I think that there is a great market for a Star Wars MMO ever since the SoE disaster struck SWG. I understand people's fears that the forums will be filled with hordes of SWG refugees pressuring for another pre-CU. I love KotOR, and it as a pretty unique and different system from SWG. I believe that KotOR has the potential to redefine what a good Star Wars MMO really should be. Lets face it, while SWG was certainly the best MMO of its time, it had a significant amount of problem areas:
No collision system, people shooting through houses unpredictable economy (devs had no idea how good stuff was going to be because of how the resources worked) no dual wielding overpowered buffs anti-wookiee racists. I mean come on! its a fucking MMO, people should be tolerant
The KotOR system has a very different kind of character customization when compared to that of SWG, but a KotOR MMO with multiple classes has the potential to have just as much variability. Think about it, you have feats, skill, and force powers to choose from. With different kinds of classes you could potentially add things other than force powers (for the non jedi classes). This means, that even within classes, there could be a huge degree of customization. The game is based heavily off the D20 system, so why not add multiclassing like with Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, cause, like, who gives a fuck about the MMO?). The only thing that I can really see problems with is the zoning, if they do it like they did in the first 2 KotORs, and the fact that a big part of KotOR was the party members. They probably shouldn't stick with the turn based combat either.
There is, of course, the chance that they are not working on a KotOR MMO at all, but they should be. Think about it, if half the people here are for it, that must represent a small portion of MMORPG.com that is for it, and an even smaller portion of the greater online community who would be interested in such a game. The market is definitely there. Well, thats my 2 cents.
SWG vets are their own worst enemy when it comes to a new star wars MMO. Vets like to say that 80 percent of the population left when the NGE came out. As a company looking to develop a game I would see that in reality that 80 percent is going to be my main customer base. that 80 percent spends countless hours whining and crying about how pre nge was the greatest game ever and how nothing else will ever compare and they want it back so bad. If you were a game developer, and you were smart enough to know what that 80 percent was going to be your primary customer base, would you really want to make that game? I mean come on guys, You don't do a very good job of making yourself look reasonable. Death threats and such against the president of the company that screwed up your game.
If Bioware releases a KOTOR MMO I will buy it and probably love it. I will rejoice as I am a huge star wars fan. However I am not a SWG vet so I will be able to enjoy the game for what it is. I just don't see swg vets being able to do that.
BLABLABLA my first post is up there so read it. Im saving space, so if you dont like it, ,,|,,
SWG vets are their own worst enemy when it comes to a new star wars MMO. Vets like to say that 80 percent of the population left when the NGE came out. As a company looking to develop a game I would see that in reality that 80 percent is going to be my main customer base. that 80 percent spends countless hours whining and crying about how pre nge was the greatest game ever and how nothing else will ever compare and they want it back so bad. If you were a game developer, and you were smart enough to know what that 80 percent was going to be your primary customer base, would you really want to make that game? I mean come on guys, You don't do a very good job of making yourself look reasonable. Death threats and such against the president of the company that screwed up your game.
If Bioware releases a KOTOR MMO I will buy it and probably love it. I will rejoice as I am a huge star wars fan. However I am not a SWG vet so I will be able to enjoy the game for what it is. I just don't see swg vets being able to do that.
I agree that we were unreasonable back then, and that SWG vets are their own worst enemies. I also hope you appreciate that, seeing as how you did not go through the SWG fiasco, you will never be able to truly relate to us. That being said, looking back at pre-CU, although it was really brilliant for the time, it is lacking a lot of major things (which I enumerated in my first post). I also appreciate the brilliance of the KotOR system, though it is far to simple for an MMO. I believe that, using the KotOR d20 system as a base and progressing from there will yield a good MMO.
The danger with SWG vets is that they are unable to see beyond SWG because it was such an amazing experience, and while other game might have cool things too (collision system, ect.) they will never live up to SWG because of the character customization possible, the holo grind, bounty hunting, ect.
I'm glad people are learning lessons from WoW...there are alot of lessons to be learned. But I am worried by the amount of 'dumbing down' Bioware wants to do for their MMO. "[paraphrasing] People don't want 10 choices, they want 1 or 2; 4 at most. All choices should have good results" Are you kidding me? Isn't that what the NGE was? Sure, learn lessons from WoW, but you'd also benefit from learning what NOT to do by looking at SWG: NGE.
Please don't tell me that was an actual quote. I'm getting far to disillusioned with this industry
To be more accurate:
Gordon Walton, co-studio director at BioWare Austin said, "The vast majority of customers -- particularly when you get out of the hardcore -- need the signposts."
Christian Nutt (person that posted the article/interview) wrote of Gordon, "He suggested that too many choices are paralyzing. If a player sees 10, he thinks, "I can make nine bad choices!" According to studies Walton has read about the human mind, "If you want people to do well, give them two, no more than four choices." "
I'm glad people are learning lessons from WoW...there are alot of lessons to be learned. But I am worried by the amount of 'dumbing down' Bioware wants to do for their MMO. "[paraphrasing] People don't want 10 choices, they want 1 or 2; 4 at most. All choices should have good results" Are you kidding me? Isn't that what the NGE was? Sure, learn lessons from WoW, but you'd also benefit from learning what NOT to do by looking at SWG: NGE.
Please don't tell me that was an actual quote. I'm getting far to disillusioned with this industry
Its not an actual quote, its a paraphrase. That means that it contains the same information, but has a different sentence structure and avoids original wording.
Oronisi: so many SWG vets loved the ability to choose from 32 professions. It was the choice of creating a character that really fit the individual player as opposed to an archetypal character that allowed the player to really feel immersed in the game. I think that choice is the key to bringing a diverse crowd to an MMO, because it allows each and every person to get exactly what they want from the game. Balancing those choices, is, of course, the hard part, but thats why we pay monthly fees.
Actually, balancing classes or skills wouldn't be an issue if you put the right people in charge. It just takes a certain approach that I guess isn't common amonst videogame coders. That's the problem, we've had coders steering the ships rather than idea-men. Or even worse, business people steering.
Basically, you make each skill box have a specific worth, and draw up clearly defined value for varying skills. Then you just give out percentages in the skill boxes. The overall skill is determined by a global value. This way if something is not balanced, the value or the global value can be tweaked without disrupting the skill trees or adding/removing/completely changing the overall skill sets.
What the SWG devs did was patch a system, responding to nerfs and never looking at the big picture. If someone complained that 1 handed swordsmen were too powerful, the 1handed swordsmen got nerfed. But the problem could have easily been that the 1handed swordsmen had dodge, and the dodge power was too powerful. By leaving the skill boxes alone and adjusting the underlying value of dodge, you could have fixed the system from a wholistic approach without nerfin 1handed swordsmen at all. Instead, it would be a nerf to dodge, and all builds that had dodge, and you would adjust it carefully and slowly rather than knee-jerk reactions.
Ah well, that's not a 'basically' summary, is it? But suffice it to say you CAN balance a skill based game. You can even balance a skill-based game for pvp. All it takes is the right approach to design and adjustment. Unfortunately, since nobody has done it yet, people assume it can't be done. When the real issue is that we've had the wrong people in charge.
I think the major issue with a KOTOR MMO would honestly be the thousands of SWG vets. I can already see the thousands of people flooding the forums trying to change the game into pre nge swg. If Bioware was smart they wouldn't try to make a star wars MMO at the point of a gun.
I completely agree with you. I would love to see KOTOR Online but I am pretty much certain that SWG Vets would ruin it by btching about how it is not pre-cu. Im a vet too, and I loved pre-cu/hated the nge, but you can rest assured that the complaining and constant comparing to pre-cu/nge SWG would never end.
I would also suggest to Bioware one thing... If the game is simply set in the same timeline as KOTOR but uses game mechanics from SWG pre-cu, they better make sure the name isnt KOTOR online. Check the fansites out there. Mention KOTOR in any form and people get angry if they think its going to be a MMORPG. These folks want KOTOR 3 and are going to take that anger and resentment out on the SWG ex-players. Go with KOTOR Online if the game mechanics will be the same. The marketing folks will agree its a good idea to take advantage of KOTOR's good rep. However, please dont make us ex SWG refugees a target of anti-MMO KOTOR 3 hopefuls. Go with something new for the name
I wouldnt play that shit, if it is a bioware game it should be 100% bioware, dont take anything from the previous starwars mmo.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I would also suggest to Bioware one thing... If the game is simply set in the same timeline as KOTOR but uses game mechanics from SWG pre-cu, they better make sure the name isnt KOTOR online. Check the fansites out there. Mention KOTOR in any form and people get angry if they think its going to be a MMORPG. These folks want KOTOR 3 and are going to take that anger and resentment out on the SWG ex-players. Go with KOTOR Online if the game mechanics will be the same. The marketing folks will agree its a good idea to take advantage of KOTOR's good rep. However, please dont make us ex SWG refugees a target of anti-MMO KOTOR 3 hopefuls. Go with something new for the name
I wouldnt play that shit, if it is a bioware game it should be 100% bioware, dont take anything from the previous starwars mmo.
I agree to a point . I think they shouldn't take anything from ANY mmo. Just make KOTOR online their own way. By that I mean don't copy anyone.
If you really believe that the KOTOR MMO will use the Pre-CU System, well then I'm most likely the next in line for the Pope!
See the whole Pre-CU system was one of the things that helped SWG fail out the door... You 'want' a big name IP game to be dumbed down, yes that sounds stupid I know... However by keeping the game based on the big name IP dumbed down you'll get more people staying in the game. Remember that was one of the big faults with SWG Pre-CU, people did come and try the game out, and then left due to the system being more for the hardcore MMO Player.
Not only that look at Mass Effect, no real 'stats' in the game for the most part. Level based rather then skill based, and much more story driven...
Chances are that's what we will see if it ends up being the KOTOR MMO. You will have Classes and Races, it will be somewhat WoW like for the most part, you'll have a few elements from Mass Effect in it as well. And it will be more storydriven rather then SWG's "Here's a Blaster, 100 credits and a Mellon... Welcome to SWG!"
Comments
I'm thinking a MMO based on MASS EFFECT.
This poll is flawed any way.
Just read what the Bioware devs say about MMORPG developing, and you'll know it will be neither pre-cu SWG, nor KOTOR, nor a hybrid.
It will be basically a more or less heavily modified WOW with more emphasis on "telling a story".
So LotRo will probably come close.
Which is actually fine by me. I thought that LOTRO had an interesting concept going with telling a story as you adventure. I just hope Bioware will pump it up a couple ten notches lol! oh, and hopefully make a good crafting system as well as some form of housing where I can deposit/decorate stuff. Yeah, yeah, I know they said in one interview they weren't looking for housing necessarily, neither was LOTRO if I remember correctly, yet they're still going to put some form of housing to the style of DAoC, which is how housing should be made in a MMO game to begin with.
sigh
These two interviews completely depressed me. And what is really strange is the men behind sandbox SWG type games seemed totally against that genre.
Its clear from these interviews we wont be getting a sandbox MMO. Its clear its going to be a WoW clone with heavy emphasis on forced questing.
I guess us SWG refugees will continue to look for a home. Very sad...
So pissing off 200.000 people to try and be like Blizzard was a success ? , look again.
Developers should look more to the community than to what other companies decide to make, i mean let WoW have their immature kids playing, and let the SWG players play their game.
Personally i still dont understand why Smedley havent been fired yet for his disaster moves.
SWG Pre-CU was the most perfect Sandbox game , until a certain somebody got greedy and shot him self in the head practially.
List of SOE lies
So pissing off 200.000 people to try and be like Blizzard was a success ? , look again.
Developers should look more to the community than to what other companies decide to make, i mean let WoW have their immature kids playing, and let the SWG players play their game.
Personally i still dont understand why Smedley havent been fired yet for his disaster moves.
SWG Pre-CU was the most perfect Sandbox game , until a certain somebody got greedy and shot him self in the head practially.
I don't see where Terranah said the NGE was a success. In fact, I see no mention of the NGE at all in Terranah's post. All I read is a true statement that companies will go where the money is most likely to be had, followed by an opinion that a balanced game can accomadate multiple play styles -in this case, sandbox and linear.Developers need more than community to decide what type of game to create. The fact is, MMOs are mighty expensive. As much as some of you believe game companies should be altruistic to your desires, in the real world, game companies are out to make money. They require a massive payback, sooner than later. This is why you will continue to see more of the same rather than more innovation. It's faster, cheaper, with less risk.
Why wasn't Smed fired? I'll bet that despite the massive drop in subscriptions, the NGE acheived its goal numbers of reducing cost and becoming marginally profitable. I'm sure no one is doing backflips over SWG numbers, but the fact that it is still around and so is Smed, tells me they're managing to squeeze some cash out of it.
[Mid 2003]
KOTOR Fan: OMG OMG MORE KOTOR PLZ!!
BioWare Exec #1: No, no more KOTOR from us ever!
BioWare Exec #2: Indeed, LucasArts was a bit of a pain in the ass to work with on that.
BioWare Exec #1: We wound up having to just reuse the plotline from NWN, lol.
BioWare Exec #2: Well hey, it worked. We won a billion awards and sold a billion copies of the game. SOE even wants to take HK-47 and slip him into an expansion. The Lucas is pleased so much they actually want us to do a sequel!
BioWare Exec #1: Yeah, but we nearly lost our souls in the process with the first game. Fuck that. Mr. Lucas has one powerful grip. Let's just dump KOTOR on Obsidian. Jade Empire FTW, IMO. LOL!
BioWare Exec #2: lol.
[Apr 2005]
SWG Crafters: WTF?!?!?
SOE Execs: Nothing to worry about folks, no really stop /quitting, plz. Game is much better now, IMHO.
[Sep 2005]
GreenMarine: Hmmm... lol /ninjavanish
[Nov 2005]
SWG Fans: WTF?!?!?
PC Gamer Reviewer: NGE? 17%, lol. srsly.
Random SOE Exec: (You know I think we made a mistake here)
Smedley: SILENCE, WHELP! /forcechoke lol
Tiggs: Fuck this. /quit
[Early 2007]
Current SWG Fans: Yay! The game is actually improving! Come back and enjoy it!
SWG Vets: I guess it's easy to improve on zero, lol.
Current SWG Fans: No, really, the game is getting better.
SWG Vets: You guys are retarded, lol.
LucasArts Execs: Hm, even though we're fixing the game with a new set of enthusiastic staff that are introducing new content and making this desirable gameplay system work, people are still avoiding and badmouthing the game. Quick, SOE, try the carrot trick again!
SOE Execs: Here vets! Here vets! *whistles, dangling multiple veteran trial periods like a carrot*
SWG Vets: Typical. /flamewar, lol.
SOE Execs: (This doesn't appear to be working.)
LucasArts Execs: *menacing glare*
[Mid to late 2007]
LucasArts Execs: BioWare. How are you folks doing? Been a while. So... yeah. KOTOR? MMO?
BioWare Exec #1: You've got to be out of your fucking mind.
BioWare Exec #2: Yeah, we're not that stupid. Not even for a million dollars.
LucasArts Execs: I see... how about five million?
BioWare Exec #1: lol
BioWare Exec #2: ...
LucasArts Execs: Ten million?
BioWare Exec #1: (I like where this is going, actually)
BioWare Exec #2: Sorry, but I'm going to have to give you a 'fuck no.'
LucasArts Exec #1: (This isn't working. We need to pull out the 'big guns.')
LucasArts Exec #2: Ok, ok. Ten million *AND* we'll throw in some free hookers. Triple D, serious stuff.
BioWare Execs: Free hookers? Well, why didn't you say so!
LucasArts Exec #1: (That one always gets them!)
LucasArts Exec #2: (Yeah, I remember how Smedley's face lit up when I mentioned it. Priceless. I got a phone video, you want to see?)
DISCLAIMER: Some parts of the preceeding timeline may or may not have happened. If it actually did, I must admit that I fear for all of us.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
That frackin' made my morning! Thank you!
sigh
These two interviews completely depressed me. And what is really strange is the men behind sandbox SWG type games seemed totally against that genre.
Its clear from these interviews we wont be getting a sandbox MMO. Its clear its going to be a WoW clone with heavy emphasis on forced questing.
I guess us SWG refugees will continue to look for a home. Very sad...
Yea, kinda depressed me too. All I could think of, was a WOW, NGE highbreed with a KOTOR type story line, and everyone was carrying a lightsaber. Not a good vision.
I'm glad people are learning lessons from WoW...there are alot of lessons to be learned. But I am worried by the amount of 'dumbing down' Bioware wants to do for their MMO.
"[paraphrasing] People don't want 10 choices, they want 1 or 2; 4 at most. All choices should have good results"
Are you kidding me? Isn't that what the NGE was? Sure, learn lessons from WoW, but you'd also benefit from learning what NOT to do by looking at SWG: NGE.
I think the major issue with a KOTOR MMO would honestly be the thousands of SWG vets. I can already see the thousands of people flooding the forums trying to change the game into pre nge swg. If Bioware was smart they wouldn't try to make a star wars MMO at the point of a gun.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Please don't tell me that was an actual quote. I'm getting far to disillusioned with this industry
I'll say this at the start: I'm an SWG pre-CU vet, and I judge MMOs by that standard. I think that there is a great market for a Star Wars MMO ever since the SoE disaster struck SWG. I understand people's fears that the forums will be filled with hordes of SWG refugees pressuring for another pre-CU. I love KotOR, and it as a pretty unique and different system from SWG. I believe that KotOR has the potential to redefine what a good Star Wars MMO really should be. Lets face it, while SWG was certainly the best MMO of its time, it had a significant amount of problem areas:
The KotOR system has a very different kind of character customization when compared to that of SWG, but a KotOR MMO with multiple classes has the potential to have just as much variability. Think about it, you have feats, skill, and force powers to choose from. With different kinds of classes you could potentially add things other than force powers (for the non jedi classes). This means, that even within classes, there could be a huge degree of customization. The game is based heavily off the D20 system, so why not add multiclassing like with Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, cause, like, who gives a fuck about the MMO?). The only thing that I can really see problems with is the zoning, if they do it like they did in the first 2 KotORs, and the fact that a big part of KotOR was the party members. They probably shouldn't stick with the turn based combat either.
There is, of course, the chance that they are not working on a KotOR MMO at all, but they should be. Think about it, if half the people here are for it, that must represent a small portion of MMORPG.com that is for it, and an even smaller portion of the greater online community who would be interested in such a game. The market is definitely there.
Well, thats my 2 cents.
Please don't tell me that was an actual quote. I'm getting far to disillusioned with this industry
Its not an actual quote, its a paraphrase. That means that it contains the same information, but has a different sentence structure and avoids original wording.Oronisi: so many SWG vets loved the ability to choose from 32 professions. It was the choice of creating a character that really fit the individual player as opposed to an archetypal character that allowed the player to really feel immersed in the game. I think that choice is the key to bringing a diverse crowd to an MMO, because it allows each and every person to get exactly what they want from the game. Balancing those choices, is, of course, the hard part, but thats why we pay monthly fees.
[Mid 2003]
KOTOR Fan: OMG OMG MORE KOTOR PLZ!!
BioWare Exec #1: No, no more KOTOR from us ever!
BioWare Exec #2: Indeed, LucasArts was a bit of a pain in the ass to work with on that.
BioWare Exec #1: We wound up having to just reuse the plotline from NWN, lol.
BioWare Exec #2: Well hey, it worked. We won a billion awards and sold a billion copies of the game. SOE even wants to take HK-47 and slip him into an expansion. The Lucas is pleased so much they actually want us to do a sequel!
BioWare Exec #1: Yeah, but we nearly lost our souls in the process with the first game. Fuck that. Mr. Lucas has one powerful grip. Let's just dump KOTOR on Obsidian. Jade Empire FTW, IMO. LOL!
BioWare Exec #2: lol.
[Apr 2005]
SWG Crafters: WTF?!?!?
SOE Execs: Nothing to worry about folks, no really stop /quitting, plz. Game is much better now, IMHO.
[Sep 2005]
GreenMarine: Hmmm... lol /ninjavanish
[Nov 2005]
SWG Fans: WTF?!?!?
PC Gamer Reviewer: NGE? 17%, lol. srsly.
Random SOE Exec: (You know I think we made a mistake here)
Smedley: SILENCE, WHELP! /forcechoke lol
Tiggs: Fuck this. /quit Priceless!
[Early 2007]
Current SWG Fans: Yay! The game is actually improving! Come back and enjoy it!
SWG Vets: I guess it's easy to improve on zero, lol.
Current SWG Fans: No, really, the game is getting better.
SWG Vets: You guys are retarded, lol.
LucasArts Execs: Hm, even though we're fixing the game with a new set of enthusiastic staff that are introducing new content and making this desirable gameplay system work, people are still avoiding and badmouthing the game. Quick, SOE, try the carrot trick again!
SOE Execs: Here vets! Here vets! *whistles, dangling multiple veteran trial periods like a carrot*
SWG Vets: Typical. /flamewar, lol.
SOE Execs: (This doesn't appear to be working.)
LucasArts Execs: *menacing glare*
[Mid to late 2007]
LucasArts Execs: BioWare. How are you folks doing? Been a while. So... yeah. KOTOR? MMO?
BioWare Exec #1: You've got to be out of your fucking mind.
BioWare Exec #2: Yeah, we're not that stupid. Not even for a million dollars.
LucasArts Execs: I see... how about five million?
BioWare Exec #1: lol
BioWare Exec #2: ...
LucasArts Execs: Ten million?
BioWare Exec #1: (I like where this is going, actually)
BioWare Exec #2: Sorry, but I'm going to have to give you a 'fuck no.'
LucasArts Exec #1: (This isn't working. We need to pull out the 'big guns.')
LucasArts Exec #2: Ok, ok. Ten million *AND* we'll throw in some free hookers. Triple D, serious stuff.
BioWare Execs: Free hookers? Well, why didn't you say so!
LucasArts Exec #1: (That one always gets them!)
LucasArts Exec #2: (Yeah, I remember how Smedley's face lit up when I mentioned it. Priceless. I got a phone video, you want to see?)
DISCLAIMER: Some parts of the preceeding timeline may or may not have happened. If it actually did, I must admit that I fear for all of us.
made my day. LOL
Thalos Vipav
Star Wars Galaxies: R.I.P.
If Bioware releases a KOTOR MMO I will buy it and probably love it. I will rejoice as I am a huge star wars fan. However I am not a SWG vet so I will be able to enjoy the game for what it is. I just don't see swg vets being able to do that.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
If Bioware releases a KOTOR MMO I will buy it and probably love it. I will rejoice as I am a huge star wars fan. However I am not a SWG vet so I will be able to enjoy the game for what it is. I just don't see swg vets being able to do that.
I agree that we were unreasonable back then, and that SWG vets are their own worst enemies. I also hope you appreciate that, seeing as how you did not go through the SWG fiasco, you will never be able to truly relate to us. That being said, looking back at pre-CU, although it was really brilliant for the time, it is lacking a lot of major things (which I enumerated in my first post). I also appreciate the brilliance of the KotOR system, though it is far to simple for an MMO. I believe that, using the KotOR d20 system as a base and progressing from there will yield a good MMO.The danger with SWG vets is that they are unable to see beyond SWG because it was such an amazing experience, and while other game might have cool things too (collision system, ect.) they will never live up to SWG because of the character customization possible, the holo grind, bounty hunting, ect.
Please don't tell me that was an actual quote. I'm getting far to disillusioned with this industry
To be more accurate:
Gordon Walton, co-studio director at BioWare Austin said, "The vast majority of customers -- particularly when you get out of the hardcore -- need the signposts."
Christian Nutt (person that posted the article/interview) wrote of Gordon, "He suggested that too many choices are paralyzing. If a player sees 10, he thinks, "I can make nine bad choices!" According to studies Walton has read about the human mind, "If you want people to do well, give them two, no more than four choices." "
Please don't tell me that was an actual quote. I'm getting far to disillusioned with this industry
Its not an actual quote, its a paraphrase. That means that it contains the same information, but has a different sentence structure and avoids original wording.Oronisi: so many SWG vets loved the ability to choose from 32 professions. It was the choice of creating a character that really fit the individual player as opposed to an archetypal character that allowed the player to really feel immersed in the game. I think that choice is the key to bringing a diverse crowd to an MMO, because it allows each and every person to get exactly what they want from the game. Balancing those choices, is, of course, the hard part, but thats why we pay monthly fees.
Actually, balancing classes or skills wouldn't be an issue if you put the right people in charge. It just takes a certain approach that I guess isn't common amonst videogame coders. That's the problem, we've had coders steering the ships rather than idea-men. Or even worse, business people steering.
Basically, you make each skill box have a specific worth, and draw up clearly defined value for varying skills. Then you just give out percentages in the skill boxes. The overall skill is determined by a global value. This way if something is not balanced, the value or the global value can be tweaked without disrupting the skill trees or adding/removing/completely changing the overall skill sets.
What the SWG devs did was patch a system, responding to nerfs and never looking at the big picture. If someone complained that 1 handed swordsmen were too powerful, the 1handed swordsmen got nerfed. But the problem could have easily been that the 1handed swordsmen had dodge, and the dodge power was too powerful. By leaving the skill boxes alone and adjusting the underlying value of dodge, you could have fixed the system from a wholistic approach without nerfin 1handed swordsmen at all. Instead, it would be a nerf to dodge, and all builds that had dodge, and you would adjust it carefully and slowly rather than knee-jerk reactions.
Ah well, that's not a 'basically' summary, is it? But suffice it to say you CAN balance a skill based game. You can even balance a skill-based game for pvp. All it takes is the right approach to design and adjustment. Unfortunately, since nobody has done it yet, people assume it can't be done. When the real issue is that we've had the wrong people in charge.
I still think they will nge it, if they dont get the numbers they want
I completely agree with you. I would love to see KOTOR Online but I am pretty much certain that SWG Vets would ruin it by btching about how it is not pre-cu. Im a vet too, and I loved pre-cu/hated the nge, but you can rest assured that the complaining and constant comparing to pre-cu/nge SWG would never end.
RIP SWG
Kaldin Brine - Master Armorsmith
Kaldier Brine - Master Rifleman
I wouldnt play that shit, if it is a bioware game it should be 100% bioware, dont take anything from the previous starwars mmo.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I wouldnt play that shit, if it is a bioware game it should be 100% bioware, dont take anything from the previous starwars mmo.
I agree to a point . I think they shouldn't take anything from ANY mmo. Just make KOTOR online their own way. By that I mean don't copy anyone.
If you really believe that the KOTOR MMO will use the Pre-CU System, well then I'm most likely the next in line for the Pope!
See the whole Pre-CU system was one of the things that helped SWG fail out the door... You 'want' a big name IP game to be dumbed down, yes that sounds stupid I know... However by keeping the game based on the big name IP dumbed down you'll get more people staying in the game. Remember that was one of the big faults with SWG Pre-CU, people did come and try the game out, and then left due to the system being more for the hardcore MMO Player.
Not only that look at Mass Effect, no real 'stats' in the game for the most part. Level based rather then skill based, and much more story driven...
Chances are that's what we will see if it ends up being the KOTOR MMO. You will have Classes and Races, it will be somewhat WoW like for the most part, you'll have a few elements from Mass Effect in it as well. And it will be more storydriven rather then SWG's "Here's a Blaster, 100 credits and a Mellon... Welcome to SWG!"