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I knew it was too good to be true! :P Look at the post I was responding to if you don't understand the context of my comment. UtMoon was putting the focus on those who get in fights with the GMs (etc), but I think that's misleading. Also, if UtMoon wants to defend the game's officials by saying it has problems just like every other game, then I think that's true but I also think it's shortsighted and, if I dare make the suggestion, it also shows UtMoon to be somewhat out of touch with the Planeshift community.
The point of your 'fill in the blanks' post does not even address what I what I wrote, and is therefor invalid beside being generic.
I stated there is a complaint forum. It is still there, and used dailly. Most well written complaints are addressed nicely by mods or Devs if it is deemed nessisary. You did not address that at all.
I stated that there are rules for adressing the complaints against GMs/Dev/mods/other players, and it is not done in an open forum public manner. You did not address that at all.
I stated -clearly- that the people who fight with Devs/mods/GMs in PS are the ones looking for a fight "as I have seen".You did not address that either.
What you did do, is responded with a comment about people who don't fight with those people as having complaints. Yes, your comment was right. The sky is bue. People have complaints. Duh. That is obvious from your own posts here. Is is obvious from my own posts, and by my stating there is a complaint forum and other rules for addressing complaints about GMs/Devs/mods/other players in private. So, in fact, you were agreeing with me, and saying I am right.
On to your next inane gibbering, yes, those who cry the loudest are those who try to bring fights with GMs out into the open. AKA, they go looking for a fight. Despite what some people here seem to believe, GMs Devs and Mods do not actively go looking for people to pick on in PS. If there is a complaint about a particular person, it is generally handled in private. Why? Well, if you have to ask that question, you don't understand people very well. I can explain it to you if you really don't know. Would you like it done in the open, or in private?
I am not defening the game's officials. They have their flaws, yes. Humans tend to have that quality. What I am doing is simply pointing out the exagerations, half-truths, and outright lies being told.
The simple fact is this: Planeshift does not have a serious Dev/GM/mod problem. In fact, they listen to what players have to say far more then other games I have seen. Things are done as fair as possible if changes have to be made. Constructive complaints are not crushed under the heavy boot of vindictive mods.
If there truly was the problem you are stating, the IRC channel would be full of constant bitching about the Devs or GMs. Which it is not. It is barely moderated, so that is not a valid arguement. People get muted or kicked for talking foul once in a great while, or spamming the room.
The forums would be assulted by constant "The devs was bad to me!" threads. Which it is not. We don't have a mod on 24/7 to make sure those threads are deleted or locked, so I would see more of them. I see very few very far between, and most over silly things.
If anyone does not understand the context of your post, it is for good reason. It has no context. It is a tangent that addresses nothing in the previous post. Therefor, I repeat: Try again.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
Maybe it was generic and irrelevant to your post (though I'm not convinced it was), but that doesn't make it invalid. You even agreed with the statement in its strictest sense.
I'm not sure what there is to say about the complaint forum. It was created so that threads with negativity could be moved out of the General Discussion forum. I don't think it represents any significant change, unless you consider it an admission that people complain about this and that from time to time.
There are rules about what you can complain about and where you can complain about it, but I think the nature of those rules supports the case people like me have made. I'm not sure why you would want to draw attention to them since they work against you.
I don't think that every person who has been drawn into a fight with the devs (or whoever) was looking for a fight. To suggest such a thing is to make a horribly broad generalization. Fights happen because egos get hurt, because people disagree on the facts, for many reasons other than people trolling. To say that anyone who butts heads with the devs/GMs is a troll is disingenuous IMHO.
I think the people who want to bring disagreements with GMs out into the open do so because they don't trust the system that is in place to be fair and unbiased. I can also imagine that a lot of people want to expose GMs that they see as out of line etc. People don't seem to trust the channels that are in place as a means to create change. The question to ask is "Why don't people trust the devs to take care of things?"
Sir, you just said a mouthful. You aren't allowed to talk about GMs on the IRC channel. You have to take it to a special channel where only devs and GMs can read your complaint. Talking about GMs on the IRC channel is neither permitted nor taken lightly. And the IRC channel is significantly moderated, I don't know how you can deny that.
No, there isn't a mod on 24/7. There are quite a few people who serve that function, and I've seen quite a few threads of such a nature as you describe. That said, I think people have learned to avoid the official forums and they've learned that posting to the official forums doesn't yield positive results, so I don't think the official forums are a good measure for the frequency of such things.
Correct. A comment has no context if you only look at the comment by itself.
There are -very- few people like you around PS. There are -very- few people who have problems with the Mods/GMs/Devs. There are -very- few people that make the threads you are talking about.
You -are- a tiny minority. But, you are also the vindictive type of people that will spread from foru to forum like a plague, spreading what you view as the truth.
I have read other forums. I have seen what people say much of the time. "I have heard they have GM, mod and Dev issues, and that they should be avoided." Where do they hear that? Do they go go to the forum and check it out themselves? NO! They hear it from people like -you-. They post that that is was they heard, and it starts to spread. Is it the truth. NO! It is -your- personal opinion.
Let's hear from others. This is directly out of the PS IRC channel. I asked the questions. I am not going to spam the place with the full log, but I can if you feel it is not 'honest' (which would be an insult to me). There was one GM there at the time who did nothing to infuence people's words.
<Underthemoon> Everyone stop for a moment. I have a serious question I want answered truthfully, fully, and with no jokes.
In your opinion, is there a serious problem in Planeshift with the GMs, Devs, and Mods treating the players badly on a personal level?
In your personal opinion, is the stomping needed?
-there's problems on many levels. i always said that. i can't speak for the GM team these days but a year or so ago things were shit. but, as to your question i'd reply no
-no.
-no
Second question: Do you feel as if they ruthlessly stop out any negitivity on the PS forums and IRC channel?
- yes and no. if it was someone just outwardly bashing PS then yes probably. but constructive critism/debates no
-yes. not always though. there was the whole thing with 'netty'. and there's been pletny of time when the +m has been pulled out in here.
What kinds of neitivity do you see getting stomped out.
-when its trollish flammish or just mean for little reason
-i'd say stopming is a bit of a strong term
Kindly asking to stop, then stomping, then.
-I say stomp away!
In your opinion, the GMs and Mods in PS are [what] than other games?
-closer to the player population
-I don't know any GMs... i rarely see more than 1 online at any one time...the GMs and Mods in PS are more absent than other games
-more listening, and ask for more insight. as in they ask for more input from the players
That is from a random group of people. Serious problem? In -my- opinion, the only serious problems have stopped posting on the PS forum, and started posting here.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
The only part of that which is true is that few people make threads to voice their complaints or concerns. This is because they know that such threads are not allowed on the official forums, and they know the kind of reaction they'll get from the officials there.Also, it's a lie to say that threads on GM activities are allowed if those threads are constructive. Almost all threads about GMs are deleted if they have any negativity in them, no matter how constructive or intelligent they are.
The rest of your post is, for lack of a better word, petty and small minded. The IRC channel is not the place to go if you want diversity of opinion let alone free expression. You know this. Also, people are not going to open up about their thoughts just because you say it's ok. That is, unless you're someone very special in the PS community, which I don't believe you are. Even if you were, people would not open up after being trained so well by the devs and GMs to hold their tongue.
And given that, I am extremely surprised that the responses you got were as strong and as negative as they were - even though they were neutered. I can tell you that the GM team has made advances in the last year, but there are still serious problems and the GM team has even gotten worse in certain ways as well.
Your study wasn't with a random group of people. It was people inclined to use the IRC channel.
The thing you seem to miss is that my opinion doesn't really matter. I'm just one person, but there are many people out there who share my opinions. We aren't as loud as you and we surely aren't as public, so I can understand why you think you're standing so pretty. I'm not sure why you've made such a career out of defending the game though. Is it that you hope to become a GM or dev?
Yeah, yeah. I know you'd rather have everyone post on the official forums so things could get deleted and editted according to your agenda. There's a reason people don't like the official forums.
I take serious offence at you calling me a liar. You are the one making assumptions and exaggerating the 'delete happy' mods of PS. New people come to PS all the time. There is not a man standing at the door telling folks your so-called 'common knowledge' as they come into the game. So no, they do NOT know what the reaction would be.
Why is the forum not full of new people complaining that the officials of the game abuse them? Because there is not a serious problem.
Why do new people not come into IRC every day complaining that the GMs abused them? Because there is not a serious problem.
Why do a FEW people come to other forums and say this? Because they don't have to tell the full story where THEY are mostly likely at more fault than the official. This very thread was started by a person who I guaranty is not the innocent that he is professing. He just wanted to tell his side of the story without worry of the other parties involved having their say.
I call him a liar for not telling the whole truth.
I call all those who have claimed to be innocent victims of the PS staff liars.
I call others who have posted threads and 'truths' about PS in this forum liars for posting five year old texts and claiming "THIS IS HOW PS IS NOW!".
I call you a liar for giving your opinions as the truth, and pointing at all the 'threads you have seen deleted' as proof. Convenient that they 'do not exist' any more, isn't it? I call you a liar for saying that the people in IRC were 'neutered'. The most negative person in the room that day has -no- problem with voicing his opinion. He later PMed me saying he does have issues with the officials sometimes, but anyone (including himself) who is 'treated badly' by them deserved it in the first place. You are tossing up smoke and mirrors and expecting people to believe what you say. The emperor's new cloths do not fit you so well.
I call Zanzibar a liar for saying he is not at fault for getting banned from the game. There was no conspiracy against him. He was a paranoid troll who rubbed everyone the wrong way. He irritated me before I even knew he had issues with… well, people who did not instantly agree to everything he said.
I call others liars who said they were treated badly for no reason, even though they posted threads DEMANDING features get changed or added INSTANLY, and that they DESERVED them.
And yes. I am someone very special in the PS community. Am I without fault? No. I have been muted and had a few posts deleted (most for getting into fights with trolls). Was it deserved? Yes. Is the post deleting and muting a rampant, out of control thing that goes on daily? No. Weekly? No. Does it even happen monthly? No. It does not happen any more than any other well moderated forum. Look at THIS forum.
The only thing I am 'defending' in this game is against the lies and one-sided truth twisting that I have seen going on here. Read my other posts if you will. I clearly state where the problems and issues are. This is not one of them. People are used to being able to pick whatever lame 'l33tkiller' names they want in other games and do pretty much whatever they want. PS does not allow that. Players get indigent when their names are changed and will sometimes cry about it on the forum. Those get locked. They are used to being able to spam forums with any dribble they want, or instantly make new threads on every problem they have without searching for the problem in other threads. PS does not allow that. The mods try to keep duplicate threads to a minimum so information is easier to search for. In other words, they merge similar threads and delete rehashed ones.
These actions cause some complaints in people who think they should still be able to do those things. Those threads get deleted or locked. Why? Because the naming policy tells you what kinds of names are not allowed. The spam policy tells what you are not supposed to post. The Search policy tells you to look before you leap. And finally, the Mod policy tells exactly how to contact people if you have a problem with moderation on the forum, which likely came from not reading the rules in the first place.
I once again suggest to anyone reading this thread to go look at Planeshift yourself, and not go by the opinions of the jaded, paranoid, conspiracy theorist, one-sided liars, or trolls that have been posting here. And if you have a complaint about PS, and have the ability to post it in a well-mannered, polite way, do not hesitate. Just make sure you search the forum to see if there is already a thread on the subject, and post it there.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
From past experiences thats the truth. The problem is, its hard to find proof when things are deleted shortly after being posted. Or option b which is complete out of control flamage by the community.
hi luca
_________________
USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST
As one of the responders to Underthemoon's survey on IRC, i can vouch for his credibility and the fact that our answers were in fact NOT neutered. That said, I have never been told by a dev or GM to only speak a certain way about PS. I have never been "trained by a dev or GM" to "hold my tongue". The only instances where i have seen any harsh action by a GM or dev towards a player is when the player starts trolling and/or flaming..."PS is lame, why dont I get my problems fixed immediately"...basically when people bitch and moan about stupid things that they feel they are entitled to for no reason. When they dont get what they want, said players with the heightened sense of entitlement then proceed to start bashing PS and the devs and GMs in an immature, rude, childish fashion.
If you consider deleting those posts being "neutered" or being "trained" by a dev or GM then you are sadly mistaken. That is just maintaining a level of maturity on the forums which you clearly are incapable of reaching.
Sincerely Yours,
Anumesa
'hi luca'
I assume that means A) You think I am Talad/Luca under another nick.
I am acting like Talad. C) I am a lackey.
The answers are No, not that I know of, and no.
maveric007... You have repeatedly said that anything negitive about PS is deleted rapidly. I have to point out that that is a lie as well. Proof?
Right in front of you.
hydlaa.com/smf/index.php
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
nah not you, pstruth sounds really familiar.
not saying he is but luca has been on these forums
and i've been a part of some PS convo's
although i have sorta stopped following PS as of late.
_________________
USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST
A lot of people don't give a 1______s what 2_______s says about 3_______.
1: Fill in the blank with your favorite four-letter expletive
2: Fill in the blank with some obsessed griefer who, Shal I say, has taken a few years to find some other game to play
3: Any game name here.
utmood first of all I think your under the moon on the ps forums, so I'm not under the impression your anyone but you. Second of all I did use my comment in past tense. I would be the first to say I'm not 100% sure that happens any more, however i did comment on the subject. Third I think ps will eventually be a fantastic game, if it would just listen to a larger audience and actually poll mmorpg players and not its small base of active users. Although its small base enjoys the game I think the game would expand far beyond its extremely limited subscriptions if they would bring outside help in, rather then move people from inside up the ranks.
Of course I am 'Under the moon'.
I have made no attemt to cover that in any way, and have bluntly stated it several times. Just felt like using a shorter nick on this forum. As for the comments I was talking about:
"As I posted in the other thread, this is extremely common for the ps forums and has been for years. Remove your current mods and start fresh. This will remove the I am so uber power attitude from your current moderators. They obviously haven't been doing their job correctly and this isn't a new complaint. Its just something you as an owner have never taken care of."
Dated less than two months ago. The highlights speak for themselves. The link I posted proves you very wrong.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
I never called you a liar. I simply said that statements of an untrue nature are lies. You are free to be offended, however the alternative to being a liar is being ignorant, and I don't know if you are ignorant.
The interesting thing is that so many people have come to the same conclusions despite this.
I don't think you need to have mobs of people breaking down the doors for there to be a problem. You have to make several unfair assumptions to say that if there was a problem there would be a mob of people breaking down the doors.
I'm not interested in proving much of anything to you, nor am I interested in defending people who have been "punished" by the game's GMs. I am merely sharing my opinions and observations, and you are free to share yours as well.
Everyone is special in their own unique way.:)Name changes and thread mergers don't really interest me. A problem would be if a GM changed the name of a player who had been around for a number of years, but I think that's happened rarely and I don't know of a case when the name wasn't reverted after a higher authority was invoked. Some might look at it as indicitive of arrogance on the part of certain GMs, and I'm inclined to agree.
I think everyone here is able to form their own opinions on things. I don't expect people to take what I've posted - or what you've posted - without a grain of salt.Anumesa , I appreciate your directness and sincerity. I also see UtMoon as someone who believes what he is posting, for the most part at least, but I find his way of looking at things to be very different than my own.
GMs haven't trained people to behave a certain way by telling them what to do and what not to do. That's not the way the facist game is played. This training is less intentional, more systemic, more incidental, and less direct. It's not necessarily even malicious. But it is there. It's the way a person can be stomped upon or marginalized if they express an inconvenient viewpoint. It's the way complaints are forced into a system that operates behind closed doors and that lacks transparency. And it's how those complaints are handled in official channels. This is something that is social in nature.
From your posts, you have a very positive view of the game and the team involved in running it. I don't think you really qualify for someone who would feel stepped upon.
So it is only the so called 'victims' who should have a voice, and 'fanboys' as you so insultingly stated in another thread, should just shut their mouths? Once again you act like those who don't have a porblem with the officials of PS don't have an opinion that matters.
Most of the stuff you 'believe' seems to be paranoid delusions. There is not a greater agenda behind PlaneShift to control people's minds. It is not a fascist organization. I really have -no- idea where you are pulling this drivel from. If you truly do hang around PS much, which I sincerely doubt, you would see that I am very vocal about things I like and dislike in the game and community. I have never once felt oppressed, and not able to speak my opinion. How long has it been since you have even posted in the forum or played the game?
I do not have a clue what you are expecting. You seem to want something where anyone can spit out any garbage they want at any time, and everyone should stand up and listen. Should the mods just quit all together?
The ONLY complaints that are handled 'behind closed doors' are those about other people. That is not for fascist reasons. It is for common sense and basic psychology. Two things I am seriously questioning if you are considering, or even understand. You don't even seem to understand the 'fascist' mentality of control. It is not done behind closed doors. What do fascists do? They drag the offending person out in public and whip them to make an example. This is to demoralize everyone else, making them easier to control, -including- their own members. They crush personal rights to support their structure.
What 'rights' are being quashed? Who is being made an example of? What the hell do you want? Public trials if someone has a problem with a GM? Demoralize the entire staff of PS so they cave to the will of the masses? What you want is a fascist system where the people control the actions of the leaders. -You- want to be in control.
You accuse the PS staff of hiding all these dirty secrets behind closed doors, yet you still hide like a coward behind your little nick. You 'claim' that your opinion does not matter, while all along assuming you are right, and everyone should agree with you or they are the brainwashed supporters of PS. You are trying to manipulate and control people. Seriously, what did the evil PS staff do to you? Did a few of your ideas get turned down? Did some of your posts get deleted because you would not stop arguing, even when very few people agreed with you? Were you banned for being a troll? Your motivation is not spreading the truth, despite your pompous nick.
Some pissed off player comes on this forum with half a story that I find completely in question, and complains about being treated bad, and you jump right on it claiming it is a problem. Now you are calling the PS staff fascists without a single shred of proof. Oh yes. I forget. They systematically erased it all. I assume you have your tinfoil beanie on to be assured they do not use their fascist mind waves to erase your memories.
Let me lay it out in very simple terms for you. Try to keep up. The reason complaints about a person -any- person are not handled in public is because of common courtesy. Players are not pulled out in public and flayed for wrongdoing in the game. They are quietly warned and action is taken if needed. We don't have a public ban list like many other games. The reason GM/Dev/Mod problems are handled in private is because they are working hard in their free time. They are doing their best, despite the so-called issues from people like you. How do you think your god damned threads and posts make them feel? I will tell you -exactly- how it makes them feel. It makes them feel like shit. It makes them want to quit. Several of my good friends have already quit being Devs, Mods, and GMs because of people like you, and vanished. You and your self-righteous ilk. How do you think it would make them feel if aired out on the public PS forum? This is a project done as a hobby in people's spare time, not a damned government black ops. There are people with feelings working on it, and they don't need jerks attacking them personally.
Your issues are overblown. Your crushing of rights are imagined. You can't do anything about the problem because there is no more problem here than in any normal social situation. There are no power mad officials out to get you.
I believe what I am posting because it is either the complete truth, or my personal opinion. I have backed up what I have said with proof, quotes, and a link to the very thing that you seem to be saying is not allowed. Your way of looking at things is not normal, nor is your opinion held by the massive majority of PS players. Otherwise, they would be here as well. So, where are your followers? I am betting you know no more than ten people in all who all have your same slanted point of view, if that. It is truly sad how you think you have all these people who secretly agree with you. Really sad.
As far as I am concerned, you have trashed this forum. All the good people worth talking to stayed over on the PS forum, and voice any concerns they have there. You have wasted enough of my time.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
Pretty sure you have gone from sensible debate to flipping out at this point. Maybe take a step away from the computer and cool off before posting your massive font endings lol. I'm interested in the debate on this forum but not even I will read a full page of rant that you have posted.
Hmmmmm just a thought but i bet this is why he took so much offense. ^.^
Amen. PS was not created to ruin your life, nor to take over the world, nor to even intentionally irritate you. No matter what it started from (yes i have read PSTruth's "Truth" post) the fact is, it is a free project worked on in the spare time of many people who care about it immensely. You can bash it all you want but what are you getting? Good job, you are officially insulting a FREE game. Wow...that takes skill :P From all these posts, it seems like whiney players with the heightened sense of self entitlement, left the game because they didn't get what they wanted or things didn't happen exactly the way they wanted them to. Now they are trashing a free project (did i mention with no motives to take over the world?) here on this forum for personal revenge. If any of the above doesn't apply to you then that makes you just a jerk. You can give me your -fanboi- shpeal or the -I am informing the public for the greater good- line, but its really not true. There is NO reason for you to be trashing this project except out of personal spite.
Sincerely Yours,
Anumesa
Thats a much more reasonable response.
UtMoon,
I'm not sure how to respond to you except in a point by point fashion.
I think everyone should have a voice. But I think it's especially important to make sure that descenters and whistle-blowers are both heard and protected.
I put "fanboy" in quotes because I wasn't the first person to call you that. I now regret repeating it as I understand it is an insult.
There is no agenda to control people's minds. It's incidental and systemic.
The Planeshift team is authoritarian. That's not necessarily a bad thing, because it protects the project and it keeps things together. But it does have certain consequences. You use the example of offenders being dragged out in public and whipped. I think it's fair to see that a form of this does happen, only it's more in the form of flames etcetera. It's less like Stalin and more like a playground from childhood.
I don't think this is an issue of rights, but I do think people should be treated with decency, especially since community is so important to Planeshift.
The Planeshift team does hide secrets. It's largely to protect GMs - both their image and their authority. I am hiding my PS identity because I enjoy playing the game and I don't want to be harassed for what I post on the net.
If a bad GM quits because of "people like me", then I wish there was a better way. But I've seen good people quit because of bad GMs and bad devs. It's just that certain people are unable to change or compromise, and so the only option is for them to leave. I think it's sad.
Anumesa,
I am not insulting the game. I am being critical of the people involved in the project. I have nothing but good will towards the project, but I see certain attitudes and individuals as hurting the project and its community. I'm sorry if you aren't able to see that.
Keep in mind that most of the people who actually hurt the community are those who expect too much, twist posts to make devs seem worse than they are and act ungratefully. Granted, in most commercial MMOs one of the most important things in player input and, even when the players are rude, there is much to learn from their posts. But, here, rude posts are more likely to drive developers away than to contribute to the progression of the game. Would you stick around if you gave somebody something for free and they just hurled insults about your mistakes back at you?
There are hundreds upon hundreds of complaint topics and maybe a hundred "dev appreciation" posts, not topics, posts.
The most recent devs to leave are Karyuu and Vengeance. Vengeance had his reasons, I'm sure, I just never found them out.
Karyuu, though, left because of the community being [many many PG-13 and even a couple AO words] :P
Not to say that you are big, bad and evil. I'm just explaining the defensive behavior of many PlaneShifters. They aren't as much fanboys as people who realize that devs have left because of the community members being stupid.
I'm hoping you'll accept my words and not prove my point by twisting my post
maveric007: pstruth is referring to personal attacks getting deleted. Making comments against the rules is one thing, making comments against individuals is another. Of course personal attacks would get deleted on any sane moderated board.
It's funny how even here on MMORPG.com, when the axe is swung, there are people who complain...and for the record, I do not.
Hi all
I am a Planeshift GM, Forum Moderator and part time IRC op. I am the second longest serving regularly online GM and I started mid March of this year.
The GM team was disbanded just over a year ago and all then GM's had to undergo a reselection process, most failed for one reason or the other a lot because an 18+ age limit was introduced which has recently been raised to 21. At the same time all GM accounts started having their commands logged and available for peer review, we literally can not do anything without our actions being noted and looked over therefore if one of us is what we are accused of being then the whole team is.
I have been watching the veiled insults and accusations directed at myself and my collegues from certain posters here for quite some time in that time there has been no proof offered no single occasion illustrated its all smoke and mirrors the only excuse is avoiding harassment . There is no institutionalised fascism we are all ex players who want to give something back to the community we love.