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Layoffs & now Bankruptcy

raykorraykor Member UncommonPosts: 326

News from Gamasutra.

 

Update: 12/13

Seems they have filed for banruptcy.  Another article on the same topic.

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Comments

  • todeswulftodeswulf Member Posts: 715

    More proof that a MMo based soley on PVP will fail every single time.

  • raykorraykor Member UncommonPosts: 326
    Originally posted by todeswulf


    More proof that a MMo based soley on PVP will fail every single time.



    Nah, I think this game failed simply because it was a bad game.  However, I suspect this will make other developers reluctant to risk making a pure PvP game and that's a shame.

  • ColdmeatColdmeat Member UncommonPosts: 3,409


    Originally posted by todeswulf
    More proof that a MMo based soley on PVP will fail every single time.

    More proof that an unfinished game pushed out the door too early will fail every time.

    A PvP game with the production values, and polish of WoW would be successful. Would it do WoW numbers? Not a chance in hell, but it would definitely do well for itself.

  • OculitusOculitus Member Posts: 203

    Originally posted by Coldmeat


     

    Originally posted by todeswulf

    More proof that a MMo based soley on PVP will fail every single time.

     

    More proof that an unfinished game pushed out the door too early will fail every time.

    A PvP game with the production values, and polish of WoW would be successful. Would it do WoW numbers, not a chance in hell, but it would definitely do well for itself.

    I agree that the problem with most floundering MMOs is being overall incomplete at release.  Whether in bugs, content, or design, launching an unfinished game will not succeed.   Not since 2004 anyway.

     

  • raykorraykor Member UncommonPosts: 326
    Originally posted by Coldmeat
    A PvP game with the production values, and polish of WoW would be successful. Would it do WoW numbers? Not a chance in hell, but it would definitely do well for itself.



    I agree that a well-designed and polished PvP game would be successful.  I think it could have 300-400k loyal and happy subscribers.  Unfortunately, I think most developers—more importantly, most of the investors behind the developers—are not willing to invest tens of millions to create a game unless it has the "potential" of millions of subscribers.  I don't think any are willing to invest such large sums in a project which they know from the beginning has no chance of hitting it big.

  • ColdmeatColdmeat Member UncommonPosts: 3,409


    Originally posted by raykor
    has no chance of hitting it big.


    That's the problem. Everyone thinks of WoWs numbers, and seemingly forgets that every other MMO out there has that was successful had only 300-400k subs. And depending on the cost of the game, it could even get by with 200k.

    WoW is a one off anomoly, outside of the free to play Asian stuff. And despite the dollar signs in everyones eyes thinking they can replicate the feat, it just isn't going to happen.

    Just as in the thread in the Pub re: EA Bioware. Their MMO is going to be considered a failure. Why? Because it won't get ~10 million subs. Blizzards success was due to polish, accessibility, an existing fanbase, and a good bit of luck. Bioware has an existing fanbase, though it's nowhere near the size of Blizzards when you factor in Asia. Polish and accessibility are easy enough. The question is what's the IP, and how lucky will they be?

    Fury was somewhat doomed from the start, though. It's main competition was GW, which is entirely free, aside from the box purchase. In both cases, you can pay to unlock skills, but in GW, you got the skills through PvE stuff. Unlike Fury, where you have to PvP to unlock them. Which means you'll be spending a good bit of time getting your butt kicked while you make your way to a point where you can compete. So the perception was, that despite being free to play, you had to buy your skills to be competitive in Fury. It was also plagued by performance issues, and other bugs.

    These lead to the biggest problem Fury has: a painfully low population. This ultimately causes a failure cascade, as new players are thrown in against advanced players in guild groups, and they just get stomped on over and over. So they play for a day or two, make little or no headway, and say screw it and quit. Eventually all you have left are the handful of organized guilds that dominate the ladders playing against themselves, and how long will that last before they get bored and go back to GW, WoW, Eve, or whatever.

    Add in the problems that Adam C. talks about in the F13 interview I posted, with a part of the team not being behind the game, and you just compound all the problems above.

    Then you have fans like Xtort that sit around and lob childish insults at people on forums. Potential buyers see someone mention a problem, or say they didn't like X, Y, or Z, and then some fan shows up and starts in with the Junior high name calling, that's going to be that much more of a turn off than the original post complaining about whatever. Even fans like A55a55in can potential hurt a game. Specifically his attempt to consolidate the Pro and Con threads. While I get why he's trying to do so, it does also sort of look like there is something being hidden by reducing the ratio of 'bad' posts to 'good' ones. Especially when he says he will report anyone not following his rules, as if he's somehow in charge of this forum, or something.

    And lastly, having one of the devs telling someone that they're just too dumb to get how awesome the game is doesn't look all that great either. If you can't keep your cool in the face of criticism, even if it is trolling, then you shouldn't be posting as a company rep. Period. See Brad McQuaid for further reference.

  • zaltarzaltar Member UncommonPosts: 125

    Originally posted by Coldmeat


     

    Originally posted by todeswulf

    More proof that a MMo based soley on PVP will fail every single time.

     

    More proof that an unfinished game pushed out the door too early will fail every time.

    A PvP game with the production values, and polish of WoW would be successful. Would it do WoW numbers? Not a chance in hell, but it would definitely do well for itself.

     

       More proof you don`t have a clue as to what your talking about.   http://www.f13.net/index.php?itemid=626

  • ColdmeatColdmeat Member UncommonPosts: 3,409


    Originally posted by zaltar
    More proof you don`t have a clue as to what your talking about. http://www.f13.net/index.php?itemid=626

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/158530/page/2

    Yeah, already seen that one, chief. An hour after it went up.

    However, I fail to see it's significance to the fact that a purely PvP game could be successful with the same polish, et all of WoW.

  • zaltarzaltar Member UncommonPosts: 125

    It is significant to your comments about Fury being a failed game . which it is not.

    Your ideas about Warcraft have nothing to do with this thread.

  • ZorvanZorvan Member CommonPosts: 8,912

    Originally posted by zaltar


    It is significant to your comments about Fury being a failed game . which it is not.
    Your ideas about Warcraft have nothing to do with this thread.
    It's now free with a gold/skill/item mall.

    mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/159057

    Game failed.

     

  • ColdmeatColdmeat Member UncommonPosts: 3,409


    Originally posted by zaltar
    It is significant to your comments about Fury being a failed game . which it is not.
    Your ideas about Warcraft have nothing to do with this thread.

    As Zorvan so kindly pointed out, successful games don't go F2P within a month or so. I mean seriously, how much reality do some of you need to be slapped around with before you come to grips with the fact that yes, the game failed?

    I realize the simple reading comprehension is beyond some people, but jesus. How hard is it to grasp that, before saying PvP games fail because they're PvP games, we should maybe try getting a PvP game that isn't a duct taped together technical failure, with poorly designed game mechanics and see if just maybe it does ok for itself?

    Because people like playing games that are done, and are fun, despite what the leftover EQ fans try to tell you...

  • cptgamecptgame Member Posts: 109

    I think GuildWars is better than Fury not because GuildWars has PvE. It is because GuildWars has a far more superior and well designed skills system.

  • NeptusNeptus Member UncommonPosts: 988

    It's horrible..
    Spam the hell out of skills in crappy choppy laggy ass PvP Arenas.
    The graphics really could have been done better.
    Seriously, have you ever seen that episode of family guy where they make fun of Six Million Dollar Man? "We can rebuild him, but I don't want to spend a lot of money." and he has a trashcan as a leg and stuff.

    The company didn't want to spend a lot of money and here's what they get.
    I believe Silkroad put more money into their game than these guys did.

    Neptus - FFXI - Pandemonium
    Neptus - WoW - Detheroc

  • Tachikoma00Tachikoma00 Member Posts: 49

    I remember a lot of morons here arguing with me that this game would be big. I kepy saying it was a sham and it will fail soon enough due to it being a complete rip off, unfinished, and just not fun to play.

    Guess I was right?

  • SalvatorisSalvatoris Member Posts: 1,360
    Originally posted by Tachikoma00


    I remember a lot of morons here arguing with me that this game would be big. I kepy saying it was a sham and it will fail soon enough due to it being a complete rip off, unfinished, and just not fun to play.
    Guess I was right?



    Now they all have to go jump on the darkfall fanboy bandwagon...  Or whichever no-name published PvP-heavy MMO is coming out (and promptly failing) next.

  • GofersGofers Member Posts: 1

    Lower the overall CC - Having 3 people attacking you because your in the #1 spot only to be hit by multiple forms of CC from all of them is not fun. When your only chance is to take your melee weapon off, put on a focus weapon so you can blink away and pick up one of the overpowered heals laying around is rather stupid.

     

    Lower overall healing from pickups,and slightly from players - Having everyone chase the same person down who does nothing but run around and pick up heals and picks off low health players, only to jump off a cliff when he gets near dead so no one gets the points for killing him, is not very exciting, I personaly run around picking up the heals even at full hp so that no one else can do this.

    And there's no reason a healer should out heal 3 people beating on them.

    Each school should have it's own form of healing (Ex. Life has their direct heals, Growth should have regeneration, Death given Leach abilities, and Decay given damage shields) going down that line of most powerful healing to lowest.

     

    Class diffrences - The sum of it is that you have your healers, your melee and your ranged. And they all play mostly the same between the schools. Use the little ability, gain charges, use the bigger ability. Heal when you need to, use CC when you can. Mainly smash the same 2-3 keys unless you need a deathblow or CC.

     

    Wider range and seperation of ladder ranks and such - No reason I should be fighting someone who has 4k hp, can barly hurt me, and is easier to defeat than a bot.

     

    Overall this game is good, but you mostly play the same thing over and over, you will sooner or later get worn out and tired. Especially when everything you fight is the same, and you rarely need to change much of your tactics.

     

  • Tonka_TuffTonka_Tuff Member Posts: 14

    I love how people come on this forum and just bash on fury...Its hilarious how much thought and time they put into trying to bring somthing down.  Its you people thats making this game crash, not the game.

  • ArudanelArudanel Member Posts: 47
    the PVP had little to do with it. A horrible launch does it all. Back when SOE was king, then it was standard for a horrible, rushed launch. then came WOW, followed by LotRO, and people realized that a MMO wasn't 'Just too big to get fixed right at launch.' Just the suits behind the money were too impatient and cheap to do a job right. Most games, the first 2 expansions are really just finishing the game that should have been at launch. NOT months after (Jump to Lightspeed comes to mind. Seriously-Star Wars with no TIE vs XWing battles?) Back in the day, competition was nil. You had UO. EQ. SWG maybe, towards the end of it. Horizons.. Not much to pick from. Now we got new options opening every day.

    Until Developers and more importantly publishers get a clue, that unfinished games=bad press=no subscribers, we'll get plenty more turds to come. But eventually, some will catch on. And like Hollywood, we'll get some gemstones in the pile of crap. Vanguard's disasterous launch, Auto Assault being canned.. it's been a whopper of a year for the MMO business. But I hope there's at least been lessons learned. Vanguard has a lot of potential for the old school gamers wanting a home. NCSoft is still in business, Autoassault's failure didn't do them in. Which means we might see a new innovative title from them, that takes some of what they learned from that game, and puts a fresh spin on it. Even the great evil itself. Satan On Earth has shown some signs of getting a clue. the slower, more polished EQ2 and EQ1 expansions lately, the work done on Vanguard, the attempts to salvage what's left of SWG.

    Here's hoping someone gets a grip, and we see more of this gradual trend continuing. I'm not going to hold my breath for it, but ohwell, we'll see. Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Huxley, this looks to be a big year for MMO gaming, so long as we don't get a dozen more vanguard launches :)

    PS: This isn't a bash on Fury. Fury was a great idea. It was a great concept that just needed one thing- a publisher like Vivendi, willing to give them the time to finish the project right. If it had launched as a stable, smooth MMOFPS, well the numbers are there. Contrary to popular beleif, halo3 showed what a shooter can do for sales if it's polished right and marketed right. Unfortuneately Fury showed what happens when neither is the case, which is too bad really. With luck, and enough people holding in there on their subscriptions, they can fix it.
  • ArckenArcken Member Posts: 2,431

    Originally posted by Arudanel

    the PVP had little to do with it. A horrible launch does it all. Back when SOE was king, then it was standard for a horrible, rushed launch. then came WOW, followed by LotRO, and people realized that a MMO wasn't 'Just too big to get fixed right at launch.' Just the suits behind the money were too impatient and cheap to do a job right. Most games, the first 2 expansions are really just finishing the game that should have been at launch. NOT months after (Jump to Lightspeed comes to mind. Seriously-Star Wars with no TIE vs XWing battles?) Back in the day, competition was nil. You had UO. EQ. SWG maybe, towards the end of it. Horizons.. Not much to pick from. Now we got new options opening every day. Until Developers and more importantly publishers get a clue, that unfinished games=bad press=no subscribers, we'll get plenty more turds to come. But eventually, some will catch on. And like Hollywood, we'll get some gemstones in the pile of crap. Vanguard's disasterous launch, Auto Assault being canned.. it's been a whopper of a year for the MMO business. But I hope there's at least been lessons learned. Vanguard has a lot of potential for the old school gamers wanting a home. NCSoft is still in business, Autoassault's failure didn't do them in. Which means we might see a new innovative title from them, that takes some of what they learned from that game, and puts a fresh spin on it. Even the great evil itself. Satan On Earth has shown some signs of getting a clue. the slower, more polished EQ2 and EQ1 expansions lately, the work done on Vanguard, the attempts to salvage what's left of SWG. Here's hoping someone gets a grip, and we see more of this gradual trend continuing. I'm not going to hold my breath for it, but ohwell, we'll see. Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Huxley, this looks to be a big year for MMO gaming, so long as we don't get a dozen more vanguard launches :)
    Id just like to add that because of all these subpar games with their dismal launches, people are jaded with MMOs right now. Its why everytime a new game comes out, the wolves come out and tear it to pieces.

    Dont be suprised if this year is a big flop, companies have been promising a lot lately, and when the angry mobs are beating down their doors with pitchforks and torches, I think you'll find even more close up shop.

  • ColdmeatColdmeat Member UncommonPosts: 3,409


    Originally posted by Arcken
    Dont be suprised if this year is a big flop, companies have been promising a lot lately, and when the angry mobs are beating down their doors with pitchforks and torches, I think you'll find even more close up shop.

    And they should be forced to close up shop. If a dev team hasn't learned how to do it right by now, then they deserve to fail. It's not as if there aren't plenty of examples of how to do it right. And even more of how not to do it.

    Don't promise the sky to your potential playerbase, and you'll find they tend to be a lot less bitchy about things not making it into the game. AKA Managing Expectations 101. See Vanguard, or Darkfall, for how to bollocks this one up.

    Don't try to shoehorn systems into your game, or tack them on at the 11th hour. Avatar Combat in PotBS? Rushed in at the last minute, and it shows.

    Get your core gameplay working. Period. Then polish the shit out of it. Then start adding into it. Make a damned design doc, and stick to it. Don't let feature creep snatch failure from the jaws of victory.

  • ShiinekoShiineko Member Posts: 161

    Originally posted by todeswulf


    More proof that a MMo based soley on PVP will fail every single time.

    A mmo based soley on pvp will fail each time.... There's plenty of PvE only mmo's out there that have failed big time, too... does that mean the PvE genre is a failure?

     

    No. Judge games based on their gameplay and appearance, not their genre.  This isn't really one of the best games out there and it gets quite dull.

  • bverjibverji Member UncommonPosts: 722

    Originally posted by Shiineko


     
    Originally posted by todeswulf


    More proof that a MMo based soley on PVP will fail every single time.

     

    A mmo based soley on pvp will fail each time.... There's plenty of PvE only mmo's out there that have failed big time, too... does that mean the PvE genre is a failure?

     

    No. Judge games based on their gameplay and appearance, not their genre.  This isn't really one of the best games out there and it gets quite dull.


    That's a poor reactionary analogy. Sure there have been PVE games that have failed, but there have also been many PVE MMO's that have done very well. While I don't agree that a PVP MMO can't be successful at least I can admit that his observation is correect; thus far there haven't been any PVP focused MMO that haven't underformed.

    That being said I think you can make a case why the market for a 200-400k PVP MMO should be there, with out being stupid about it.

  • OrthedosOrthedos Member Posts: 1,771

    Originally posted by Tonka_Tuff


    I love how people come on this forum and just bash on fury...Its hilarious how much thought and time they put into trying to bring somthing down.  Its you people thats making this game crash, not the game.
    Blame the customer when you cannot sell your product?  How about blaming the police because you failed to rob the unwary.

    You got the logic reversed.  Its the duty of the seller to attract the clients.  If they failed, its their fault.  Not the clients'.

  • ColdmeatColdmeat Member UncommonPosts: 3,409


    Originally posted by Orthedos
    Originally posted by Tonka_Tuff I love how people come on this forum and just bash on fury...Its hilarious how much thought and time they put into trying to bring somthing down. Its you people thats making this game crash, not the game.
    Blame the customer when you cannot sell your product? How about blaming the police because you failed to rob the unwary.
    You got the logic reversed. Its the duty of the seller to attract the clients. If they failed, its their fault. Not the clients'.


    Don't ruin my fantasy.

    I'm enjoying wielding the ability to crush a game under my bootheel with a mere click of the 'Post Message' button.

    It's an intoxicating, and dizzying thing.

    And now that I've tasted this sweet, sweet power, I know my soul has been warped, and corrupted, and can never return to it's natural state.

  • monkrightmonkright Member Posts: 2

    Its destiny is doomed in the very beginning.

    Its unfished start and the flourished PVP games drove it to death.

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