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Can a complex & dynamic MMORPG work...
phersso
Member Posts: 12
Can a MMOPRG, with a multitude of options (namely:skills) , keep people interested? (before you answer please browse through my post!) Naturally, my first answer would be yes, but the more i think about it, the more I begin to question if it could (or really, i question how complex a game could be)
In a level-less system, where EVERYTHING is based upon learning skills and advancing, can you have TOO many skills available?
Lets say, one area of Skills, under Trading, is Farming. Farming would have a subset of Skills to be learnt, if different areas of Farming. (see below)
Farming
Tilling - Skill 1 / Skill 2 / Skill 3 / Skill 4
Cultivation - Skill 1 / Skill 2 / Skill 3 / Skill 4
So already, there is 8 skills that can be learnt under Farming, and thats just the tip of the iceberg. You could end up with a lot of skills, just under Farming alone (if you had say, 8 sub-classes of Farming (tilling/cultivation/etc), each with 2-8 learnable skills (skill1/skill2/skill3/etc)). When you start adding in more trade skill areas (carpentry, metalsmithing, etc.) you may end up with hundreds, if not thousands of skills. You then need to think about Combat Skills, and skills that could be applied to many 'standard' areas that are usually a given: riding, trading, socialising and so on.
So there you have it, can a game with a LOT of skills keep a person interested, and keep the general MMORPG community interested? Or would it be to confusing, and drive new players away from the game and eventually die out in some sort of over-complex downfall?
PS. Is there a 'right' amount of skills? Is having sub-skills of skills a good/bad idea? etc
Comments
I think so. really the key is in your subject line I think. "Dynamic". If someone can make a complicated "system" but have easy to understand UI and a dynamic world, I think it would keep customers for the long haul. What it would take to make a game like this is beyond me, but if someone could fund it and really make it good, I could see myself playing and paying for it for many years.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
I would say yes.
Think of it: a MMO with no skills or character development besides leveling up a class is enough to keep players for years.
In skill based MMOs you have maybe a few thousands of different ways to develop ypur character.
And skill based MMOs are often sandbox, so they will need farmers to make the world work. So farming skills is always needed.
And the more complex a MMO is, the better. But you need to begin at some point. First one choice, then another and so on.
Yes, i can work but to what end? is having 250k subs still considered good with the increase of mmo cost?
but there is a valid point to be heard with too many skills. having to many can non combat skills woont really come into ppl's minds at first, the problem would stem from the combat skills. how can some one possible balace that many skills , this is the main reason we dont see sandbox style lvling sytems
every week therd be a new "alpha" build even in non sand box games theres always a "best" class or build of the month. ppl have no imagination they want to be the best and so they will always copy the guy who just killed them. then with so many skills the re-balancing would come and everyone will cry and quit for a week then come back and start the new alpha build lol
so can it work yes, but theres a reason we dont see many
The general MMOG community, i.e. the vast mass market of MMOG gamers, would be scared away the moment it is given too much choice. Most people, when faced with more then 3-5 choices, become more worried about making the wrong choice than anything else. This makes them less comfortable and hurts their enjoyment of the game. For this reason alone I think any MMOG with skill based progression instead of levels will have a hard time being a mass market hit of the scale that WoW is.
I also think going into a lot of detail on the skills is completely unnecessary. One skill for fishing is enough - no need for trolling, net fishing, dredging, spear fishing, etc as separate skills. For combat skills the general weapon type ("sword", "axe") and maybe combat moves ("swing", "thrust") would be the maximum. "Single-edged curved sword backhand swing" skill is far overdone. :-)
The system in Ryzom is interesting (description here is probably a bit wrong though), with all skills starting very general and then branching off as you advance them higher and higher. At the lowest level you increase "Combat" regardless of what weapon you're using. At 20 skill you branch into "Melee" and "Ranged", where use of weapons will naturally only increase skill in the appropriate branch. It then branches into different broad weapon groups like "Swords", more specific like "Two Handed Swords" and towards the 250 skill mark into individual weapons.
So, yes, a game with many sub-skills can definitely keep some people interested. No, it wouldn't draw the majority of the community. The "right" amount of skills depends on many other factors in the game, but trying to make it very detailed with tons of skills is something I believe would be a big mistake.
"but there is a valid point to be heard with too many skills. having to many can non combat skills woont really come into ppl's minds at first, the problem would stem from the combat skills. how can some one possible balace that many skills , this is the main reason we dont see sandbox style lvling sytems"
This is where my train of thought was heading. You would have the player that enters the game, sees the large number of options available, and then rubs there hands together in delight.
The second player, enters the game, plays around a bit, but becomes confused which path to take, what to train and what not to, and may end up copying the first player.
Maybe it comes down to ease of understanding. Good descriptions of what each skill will do, and what it may be used for, would definately be required in my books.
"I also think going into a lot of detail on the skills is completely unnecessary. One skill for fishing is enough - no need for trolling, net fishing, dredging, spear fishing, etc as separate skills. For combat skills the general weapon type ("sword", "axe") and maybe combat moves ("swing", "thrust") would be the maximum. "Single-edged curved sword backhand swing" skill is far overdone. :-)"
I'm still not sold on which way to look at it. In my opinion, having different fishing skills could be quite fun, and would allow for the capture of different types of fish, in different depths of water (if you wanted to quickly get some fish, throw a net in the shallows and your done). BUT, I do understand that some people don't care about that sort of thing, and just want to fight etc.
I guess it depends on how true the game is to a honest Sandbox system.
The key to a good complex mmorpg to function with most of the players is to ease into it. Start it out simple and fun and foremost enchanting or charming and let the player gasp and enjoy the game and alittle later on give them dish after dish after dish of the massive options and paths of the game..
Thats how i would do it. And yes i truely think most players would love it!
What youve described was pretty much the way the skill system in The Saga of Ryzom worked.
For those that are looking for something more out of an MMO other than uber gear and highest level, I think a dynamic game would work obviously. The problem ends up being, how many of those players are out there in comparison to those who preffer level based games, and will they grow out of that and become more interested in sandbox games? If companies don't see any potential both in the now and in the future, they're not interested. Of course, the problem ends up being, without a good model of a sandbox out now for the public to play, how can they gauge the potential? SWG is butchered now, and UO, I think it's age and graphics work against it. So of course, any investors now look at those two models of a sandbox game, one butchered, and one aging, and then compare it with the other model (WoW) and end up thinking that level system is the way to go, so they don't bother investing on a future sandbox model.
But if a new sandbox game was made, using today's engines and using today's talents I think sandbox games could show to have a lot of potential. Heck a lot of players have been asking for something similar for years now.But again, the question is, how many of us are there, and how many will change from a level based MMO to a sandbox MMO.
In all honesty I would love a good dynamic skill based game. Is it possible? Yes. There is one problem though, the players, as , mentioned before me you have to find those that would prefer this type of game, i realize there is a number of them here, but the majority of the market is level based with instant gratification. there was nothing more that i liked about UO than he fact that I would spend days upon days upon days GMing Mining and Blacksmithy...then they ruined it with this weird AoS world, not to mention the lack of danger presented to us by UO:R. Granted I started playing when UO:R came out, but I stayed in Felucca, because I felt like i was cheating by not being able to be killed, i thrived on the danger. Every time I saw a player I would think "is this a good person, or is this someone who is going to end my life." I would like to see a MMO come out that captured me for as long as UO did, and can keep me playing. Sadly, I don't see that day coming, any game that talks about being sandbox usually gets nixed or you hear nothing about it (Darkfall or whatever). But I totally agree with you, I want to see a game like that
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Short answer to the OP's question is Yes.
Long answer is that what you described as a leveless game consisting of lots of skills instead with subskills as well can work because ive been palying that game for the apst 4 years.
Its called EvE online.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
If games were designed better people wouldn't have to worry about making the 'wrong' choice. I remember how fun Diablo2 was when I was like 12 years old and didn't have a freaking clue. When I revisited the game years later I approached it like a science, maximizing bonuses and minimizing penalties across the board. Not nearly as fun.
If the character creation system were much more forgiving then people could simply toss points willy nilly and still win fights through player skill.
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PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
Thing is, descriptions usually are misleading in MMOs. Obviously, two-handed should hit harder than the one-handed sword, hard enough to warrant not having a shield. But, you'd be amazed in some MMOs how much the two-hander is gimpy unless you're playing the right class or have the right backup skills. People would make a choice based on real-world logical reasoning (Fire will continue to burn doing extra damage), but the truth of the matter is, when it comes to MMOs, sometimes there's just not a lot of real world logic in it (That extra damage is almost negligible on the high-end). You won't see a mass market skill-based game because you won't see a balanced, sensible mass-market skill-based game.
As said a couple posts up, it has been done. EVE Online. Works well for over 200k subscribers, but not everyone seems to like it. I love the complexity and diversity you're allowed to have. Some people don't like it, or don't know what to do when presented with that many options and quit before they really begin to understand it.
Is there some rule that says skill based MMO games have to be sand-box and completely deviod of content? Or that they cannot have quests background stories and or linear content to make them more fleshed out?
I think part of the reason why EVE does well is because it has some components similar to quests ( missions ) which gives newer and more traditional players a feel for the game. It allows them a chance to stick to what they know until they get accustom to the freedom EVE offers outside of missions.
Once factional based warfare along with missions related too it are included I expect EVE's population to blossom even further while maintaining the ability to give players room to breath and grow outside the linear content already offered by EVE.
So why not make a skill based MMO with some content that people can enjoy which is linear in order to get them adjusted to the game but which is not all consuming. Meanwhile you can also offer the freedom to do other things outside the norm of this limited linear content that can also reward the player on the same level if not greater then said linear content does.
The problem with level based games is that they do not allow for alternate paths for enjoyment that also reward you in the same manner as linear content. So why not give rewards that are parallel to each other for either game play styles both linear and non-linear. Meanwhile you also maintain the ability to allow players to move out of sheltered regions/zones in the game and branch out to create their own stories and gaming experiences. IMHO this is what EVE does so well and why it's stayed around so long. Of course it's PvP component is just as important as well and effects almost everything in the game world and that is another factor in and of itself.
well sandbox games need content or they get boring fast linear games are easy to make and alot of people first game WAS wow and linear so theres alot of gamers that dont even know what a sandbox game is like only reason i dont like eve is because you cant fly the ship your self and have real time fights instead of how jumpgate 2 is going to be like is the way i like my space games or even like jump to light speed dont like everything to be auto like EVE othere words the game is fine
Sandbox is about freedom of choice and actually being able to accomplish things. However it's all too often used as an excuse for lack of any sort of provided content.
In any case, EVE is not a true sandbox. After all the devs have been caught red handed cheating and propping up their favorites and also rigging events. It's not a true sandbox when the devs are playing favorites and rigging others to fail.
First, sorry for the exceptionally long post. You've been warned!!
Ultima Online had a broad array of skills but limited each character to a certain number of skill points. Ashen Empires similar to had UO had similar skill-based play but let each player work any, or all, skills as they saw fit... as long as they were willing to put in the time and effort to train the skill. The link below is for the Ashen Empires skill list for reference. AE is kind of under most gamers' radars because of the UO-like graphics and other stuff. But when you played it, the game was fun. I think UO and AE are nice starts for a skill-based system. I'd like to see a next gen game take it even further though.
One thought was to have individual spells be learned independently, so that not all mages have the same darn spells. To make that work fully, you might need to limit the number of spells each character could have or throw in a limited number of per character proficiencies in different spell schools/circles (e.g. abjuration, illusion, necromancy, transmutation, divination, evocation, potions, enchantment). One idea here is to let a character pick any three schools they want. Then they must pick and choose what spells they want to learn from each school because there will be more spells than spell "slots" available. Then, for a nice customization feature, the advanced player can create new spells unique to his set of 3 spell skills. A different selection of 3 spell schools would provide different spell creation possibilities. Combinations of spell skills and spell reagents could provide a huge diversity in the spells (and their effectiveness) able to be crafted and allow players to tailor their characters to suit them even better. None of this would preclude a player from going back and unlearning one spell and relearning another or even dropping one entire school for another. He/she would just have to put the time in to learn the newly selected spell/school from scratch and drop one of the previous spells/schools.
I think harvesting should be separated with things like foraging, planting, lumberjacking, skinning, reaping, trapping, spear fishing, hook fishing, netting, mining metals, mining minerals, cutting gems, and extracting gases, water, and other liquids all requiring separate skills. Make players really choose what they will spend their time on but then do it very well and let other players provide the harvesting skills you didn't pick. On the other hand if some hardcore player wants to learn every single harvesting skill and puts in the time and effort needed, then ok - let him... I doubt there would be many to do this though.
Crafting skills could be expanded as well (e.g. sculpture, carpentry, stone masonry, leatherworking, tailoring, tinkering, armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, alchemy, cooking, inscription, jeweler, painting, fletching, glass blowing, architect, shipwright, song writing, herbology, map making, repair skills, salvage/deconstruction, upgrade skills, etc.).
Come up with some useful merchant skills. Merchant skills could reduce the upkeep cost on vendors and shops, allow for identification of unknown loot items, sell more items, sell items to NPC vendors for higher prices, buy from NPC vendors for lower prices, allow the sale of bulk quantities (a whole sale skill for example could provide a player with the ability to see large amounts of ore while a typical player might be limited in the quantity of ore that could be sold to a given player within a certain time frame?), etc.
Add in some skills for piloting and crewing boats/ships and ship-to-ship combat skills.
Add skills for horsemanship (or whatever kind of mount you have) & mounted combat.
Expand weapon types (I see very few whips, blowguns/darts, nets, tridents, flails, etc. Why?) and make all weapons need a separate skill to use effectively.
There are several things you could do with combat skills too. Break things up into weapon+shield, dual wield weapons, ranged weapons, barehanded (martial arts), or two-handed weapon then have all the other basics like parrying, weapon proficiencies, tactics, anatomy, dodging, etc.
Don't forget swimming, running, & jumping. These need to be made into useful skills. One idea for running is let players start with say 10 seconds of burst run speed. Then the more they train the running skill, the long they get the burst speed for. And maybe even they get a bigger burst run speed too.
Add in some social skills similar to what SWG has - dancing, muscianship, acting, fortune telling, etc.
There are a ton of skills that can be used effectively in an MMMORPG. Doing so allows exceptional character customization and supports diversity in the game which all leads to a more immersive world and hopefully a better community too.
Just my thoughts... doubt I will ever see it happen, but I can dream I suppose...
Ashen Empires Skill List:
http://www.ashenempires.com/skills.aspx
Playing WoT now.
Favorite All-Time Games: Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Lord of the Rings Online
You know, one thing that I loved about KOTOR is that it was very dynamic and that it always offered different paths to achieving the same goal, even on dungeons.
One of the things I loved about the dungeons was, that if you didn't feel like fighting, or didn't have enough health pack to endure an attack, you could go to a room which had a monitor, you could see some of the rooms that had mobs through the monitor and then choose to a) explode that room, b) gas that room etc. I would like to see that dynamic brought in. Maybe if Bioware does end up bringing out an SW MMO, they can make it so that only someone with smuggling skills (smuggler and maybe even a BH) can do it, that way not everyone will try the easy route when doing dungeons, and it would give importance to a class other than jedi
Another dynamic I liked was that some door could be open with grenades or computer skills. So again, if you didn't feel like finding a key or monitor to open the door, you can make it so certain classes who use grenades or computer skills can open these doors. Of course this doesn't mean ALL doors should be opened this way. This just allows for more interaction with the world.
Why must any future Star Wars MMO allow players to become Jedi in the first place? Why can't people just be happy playing characters more akin to Uncle Owen (farmer) or Watto (merchant) or Lando (diplomat/administrator) or one of Jabba's no name guards (thugs) or some other low rank Imp or Rebel soldier? Really, do players HAVE to be larger than life heroic figures to feel that they are getting their money's worth from their MMO? Being a Jedi is not what interests me in a SW MMO at all. Just living in the SW universe like you see 99% of the characters in the movies doing would be enough to make a fun game (see original SWG before the Jedi hordes as an example of a good representation of SW in a MMORPG). Players are not, and should never be, peers or comrades of the likes of Yoda, Skywalker, Vader, Leia, Chewbacca, Han Solo, etc. Those characters, they're level of impact on the universe, and what they signify in the SW lore should be unobtainable by gamers. *sigh*
Playing WoT now.
Favorite All-Time Games: Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Lord of the Rings Online
Some good points and opinions are arising, I must thank you for that.
I'm beginning to think, that although most people do want to play in a skill-based system, they are craving for a non-linear gaming experience with good stories and content more-so (I do suppose they are linked).
Make the world big
A small world can only hold small amounts of content, and allows the player to explore this content relatively fast. By increasing world size, you not only give it a sense of grandeur, but allow for more content, that will potentially allow players to visit new content years after playing. (this world NEEDS to be filled with good content, having a big world half-filled just wouldn't cut it)
Make the content broad and fun
We have all seen it, "Kill 20 boars". Whilst being time consuming (especially when every 3rd quest is similar to this), it is rather unrealistic (yes i realise this is fantasy). What i would rather, is to kill 5 boars, the boars live in a forest with lots of underbrush, the boars are rather quick and hard to catch. They also they run and hide.
Make the game less quest based, more living based
Although quests are useless, can give players a sense of direction, I also think that players should need to make a living for themselves. Lets say your travelling through a snowy mountain town. Food is scarce as they've hunted down most of the easy prey. You think, "Food is scarce, i'm going to hunt some stuff". You head out, heading up the mountain (unknown to you, dangerous territory). You come across a pack of fierce moutain creatures. After a long (lets say 30 minutes) and tiresome battle, you slay 5 and they other 4 retreat. You pack up the carcasses and head back to town. You enter town and the village praises you! Your a hero, not because you defeated the 'bad-ass moutain creature', but because you bring food and hides.
There you go, not only did you just make your own quest, you just sold meat and hides to the village, gaining money, but you kept some meat for yourself to eat. You also gaining skills in the progress, you gained popularity with the village, AND you helped the village out for a week.
Thats all i have for now. Time to get a Coffee
RE: Make less quest based more living based.
You know, I've always wanted to play the role of some wise old hermit who once was a soldier for whatever faction is in game and live out in the mountains somewhere. Problem is though, I know I'm not the only one, so I'm sure I'd see a bunch of other "hermits" living nearby when I'm supposed to be living in a secluded mountain area. Way to kill the mood >.< I do agree with you though, and I think if more emphasis can be made on living in the game world as opposed to simply jumping from mission to mission like a video game (yes, I know, MMO = game, but it doesn't have to be) then it would make the experience more personal.
The answer to your question: Yes, by all means.
Now, my question: Why? This would only serve to make the game over-complicated and potentially less fun.
The 'right' number of skills would depend on the game.
And how is this dynamic?
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Have played: RuneScape, EQ2 (free trial), Last Chaos, Silk Road, Dungeon Runners.
Currently playing: RuneScape, Dungeon Runners.
The notion that graphics, or anything else for that matter, are anywhere near as important as gameplay/fun is so utterly ridiculous that anyone who shares such a view should be placed in an asylum.
Sandbox games don't need content, sandbox games need features and world dynamics. Content in sandbox games is created by player interaction with those features.
*Ding* *Ding* *Ding*
I think it's all losely connected. Features define what the content does (in my opinion), BUT you could have features that are the content.
IMO, sandbox's DO need content, just how far you spoon feed the content is the question that needs to be asked.