The discussion is quite popular and came up during the last weeks, so:
The last weeks? Try the last years. This topic has been 'popular' ever since Mythic revealed their decision a long time ago in the development process.
Still it's amusing to see yet another Stealth poll pop up and watch it get buried under the 'NO' votes, showing that most people looking forward to WAR understand Mythic's decision and realize it will make a better game.
The discussion is quite popular and came up during the last weeks, so:
What do you mean out of? It was never in.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I don't really give a damn but I still stand for my opinion that balanced and well made stealth skill adds a lot more to a game. Reason:
I'm not a fan of invisibility, being 100% invisible is in most scenarios overpowered, stealth (partly invisible) is what I will be discussing here. Every skill in a game can be overpowered or underpowered, stealth is no exception. If the devs make the stealth skill balanced it won't be overpowered. There is no such thing as stealth=you win. Just because you can be partly invisible doesn't mean you will automatically win.
I personally believe that stealth adds more to a PvP experience as you aren't always sure that everyone you can see is everyone that is there. This makes you constantly ready to be attacked and thus keeping you focused all the time. Without stealth it's easy to get unfocused as you can spot a player from quite far away thus preparing yourself. A good PvP player should be able to overcome the "shock effect" stealth should have.
To sum it up: Stealth is just like any other skills, make it balanced and it's good. Stealth makes you as a PvP player more focused due to the constant threat of a person in stealth sneaking up on you.
Although I would agree a properally designed stealth methord would be welcome by all it's as I stated in the other stealth topic 'stealth' as many players know it doesn't exsist within the Warhammer mythos so it wont exsist in WAR..
This is because Mythic aren't doing what countless IP games have done which is just take the idea only and then mold it to a game (LOTRO as much as you look at it is still a cookie cutter MMO) they are making a Warhammer MMO thats the big difference, it's not based off Warhammer, it is Warhammer
Although I would agree a properally designed stealth methord would be welcome by all it's as I stated in the other stealth topic 'stealth' as many players know it doesn't exsist within the Warhammer mythos so it wont exsist in WAR.. This is because Mythic aren't doing what countless IP games have done which is just take the idea only and then mold it to a game (LOTRO as much as you look at it is still a cookie cutter MMO) they are making a Warhammer MMO thats the big difference, it's not based off Warhammer, it is Warhammer
It has nothing to do with Warhammer lore. They are going to put in what will make the game fun, whether its in the lore or not.
Originally posted by ghoul31 Originally posted by Kremlik Although I would agree a properally designed stealth methord would be welcome by all it's as I stated in the other stealth topic 'stealth' as many players know it doesn't exsist within the Warhammer mythos so it wont exsist in WAR.. This is because Mythic aren't doing what countless IP games have done which is just take the idea only and then mold it to a game (LOTRO as much as you look at it is still a cookie cutter MMO) they are making a Warhammer MMO thats the big difference, it's not based off Warhammer, it is Warhammer
It has nothing to do with Warhammer lore. They are going to put in what will make the game fun, whether its in the lore or not.
Although I would agree a properally designed stealth methord would be welcome by all it's as I stated in the other stealth topic 'stealth' as many players know it doesn't exsist within the Warhammer mythos so it wont exsist in WAR..
This is because Mythic aren't doing what countless IP games have done which is just take the idea only and then mold it to a game (LOTRO as much as you look at it is still a cookie cutter MMO) they are making a Warhammer MMO thats the big difference, it's not based off Warhammer, it is Warhammer
It has nothing to do with Warhammer lore. They are going to put in what will make the game fun, whether its in the lore or not.
And stick to the lore.
and they priity much have to:
people are forgetting that much like the reason why LOTRO doesn't have the armies of mordor as 'fully playable races' and pvp isn't 'pvp', Mythic can't just go and add a 'stealth class' into the game to appise players they have to answer to Games Workshop first who very much like their IP and are very very keen on keeping WAR to 'Warhammer' standards..
They are not allow it to go completely downhill like by allowing the devs to do what they like with the IP, they've made that mistake with Mark of Chaos. For instance THQ held and continue to hold the 40k lisence due to the fact it's games keep to the 40k IP, I've yet to see a somthing within their games which I wouldn't find within the 40k mythos, sure regiments unque to the games are made however they still are what they are ment to be..
What I'm getting at is players are expecting WAR to copy WoW mainly due to the claims the 'it's a WoW clone', yet complain that it doesn't have X, Y, or Z.. Thing is WoW is controled by the owners of the IP, they can feck about with it's design and lore till their hearts content (for instance the Draenei 'issue' and the fact players have 'killed' key characters within the Warcraft lore).
Mythic can't toy and just add things in without getting a nod from GW, otheriwse GW could just pull the IP, much like what Tolkin Ind. could have done with Turbine's atemps at adding 'pvp' to LOTRO, Tolkin adimently refused to allow players to fight their own people plus there wasn't enough 'lore' behind the mordor armies to allow them playable.
Dispite player's vew on wather the lore 'matters' or not, when it's not your lore to mess with you have to answer to the higher power who owns it, thats like writing a 'new' Starwars and saying Luke was actally Sith.. you can't go adding stuff which fundermentally changes the lore or the why the world of that lore works willy nilly.
Why do people hate stealthers? many reasons One is balance. Stealth, as in ability to not fight when you know you won't win and only fight when you want to is not overpowered by itself. After all, standing stealthed while a group of enemies runs by you isn't exactly fun, nor is waiting for the fight that you will want to engage (one where you can win)
So, because stealth by itself isn't powerful, you have to give stealthers abilitiy to kill other classes, You can't tell a stealther he'll do 20% damage of a none stealthed class, or stealthers will claim that they are uelsess (which they would be) There is no need for scouting in mmos (only eve makes scouting a very important role) so stealth itself is useless. So, instead of a stealther, you get a normal class with normal damage, but one that has stealth too. Depending on abilities stealthers get, they will have a natural target class (usually casters) and a natural enemy class (usually tanks)
Annoying part comes from the fact a caster can't do much, since you can't see a stealther, and when you can you are usually eating dirt. And tanks of course can't see stealthers, so unless you are bored even if a tank class could one shot stealthers, stealthers would still be overpowered.
Then of course the fact that you can have 3-8 stealthers together, which just gets stupid. pax3+5 arrows stickign out of you as you try to run by a bridge? "lawl, why would you run by a bridge? don't you know stealthers are camping it" is exactly why stealthers are hated. At least if it's a visible group, you can get a zerg and kill them, or soem other group will engage them and kill. But if it's stealthers, they will just move away/not engage if they feel like they can't win, then they will 3x1 you and whine on the forums how stealthers are nerfed and can't 1v1. Then when they get buffed to the point where they can 1v1, they still zerg and it gets even more stupid.
Stealthers would be fine if they were treated completely different from any other class. Things like cannot group, only one stealther can be in a given area (if another from your faction moves in you are both unstealthed) and the most imporant, there needs to be a class that not only can kill stealthers when they jump it (and wth would they jump a class that can kill them) but one that can hunt them, "see hidden" and abilities that let said class one shot stealthers.
But then, why make a stealther class and a stealther counter class, nither of which would add much to a group, when you can just cut stealthers and have balanced pvp? Oh, you need stealthers to solo with? You can solo just fine on a visible toon too, and would be able to do it much better if there weren't stealthers and stealth groups.
PS: "why would you as a caster, run solo in emain, you are just asking to be killed by a stealther, get a group noob" and then people wonder why solo rvr is dead. Screw stealthers, they kill solo game for visibles, and when no visibles solo stealthers group to win stealth wrs which completely kills solo game for visibles and almost kill it for stealthers.
Wow, the thread seems to have deviated a little...
In responce to Kremlik, Its interesting you use Lucas as an example. I Followed the development to SWG, much like how i am following the WAR development....i read the newsletters and posted on forums. Anyway, there were many many questionable calls in it development...ranging from how wookies would communicate, to how anyone could be a TKA, smuggler or a Bounty hunter if they wanted to be...and how jedi would be an ALPHA class that was exceedingly rare. There were alot of these "Does this follow the continuity?" discussions.
Then We find ourselves here, what? 5 years later? The game has gone through at least 2 full revamps from what was innitaly anounced and released. Sometimes blindly following what seems to follow the IP does not always benifit the games health. Thats why i'm supprised you would use lucas as an example....because "he"(or rather lucas arts) has been so very VERY wishy washy with the development of the majority of his(thier) games.
So, because stealth by itself isn't powerful, you have to give stealthers abilitiy to kill other classes, You can't tell a stealther he'll do 20% damage of a none stealthed class, or stealthers will claim that they are uelsess (which they would be)
Bingo, I feel this is the main issue, too.
Stealth classes in existing MMORPGs are unbalanced and/or unfair in PvP because they are not properly balanced around the stealth mechanic, often so they are useful in PvE.
If stealth were to be properly balanced, the classes with it would need heavy penalties. Things like doing minimal damage while visible, only having positional attacks do any useful damage, dying easily, etc. If a class was designed so that it could kill people relatively easy when surprising them while stealthed but was quite useless when not stealthed, then it would be fair.
This, of course, is impractical in actual gameplay, as the previous poster noted. Few people would enjoy a class that is either on or off, with no in between, or could only be a scouter. So, developers tend to design a full class, with tons of combat abilities, like the WoW rogue, and then simply add stealth as a bonus but not a core feature that is essential to success. This results in a class that is at least competent when visible, and is superpowered when stealthed.
It is silly that a class can choose its fights, running and ganking at will, and can even put up a good fight when discovered. Discovery should equal death if concealment offers so many bonuses, but it does not.
Anyway, no mainstream games will ever make a stealth class so specialized, and so I am glad there will be no stealth class in WAR.
"Stealth class" and "High(est) damage class" have become synonymous in almost every other game. I think thats a large reason why alot of people are clinging to this lack of stealth class issue....wether they realize it or not. In the majority of MMO's if you play the stealth class it gives you a degree of "role security...kinda like job security.
I'm glad they have stuck to thier guns on the no stealth class....but i'm not entierly oppose to the idea of stealth classes. However, the concept and definition of a stealth class needs to be reworked.....they need to account for the fact that they have an ability no one else hass and add in other benifits to those classes that make them less then "worthless without top of the line DPS".
Wow, the thread seems to have deviated a little... In responce to Kremlik, Its interesting you use Lucas as an example. I Followed the development to SWG, much like how i am following the WAR development....i read the newsletters and posted on forums. Anyway, there were many many questionable calls in it development...ranging from how wookies would communicate, to how anyone could be a TKA, smuggler or a Bounty hunter if they wanted to be...and how jedi would be an ALPHA class that was exceedingly rare. There were alot of these "Does this follow the continuity?" discussions. Then We find ourselves here, what? 5 years later? The game has gone through at least 2 full revamps from what was innitaly anounced and released. Sometimes blindly following what seems to follow the IP does not always benifit the games health. Thats why i'm supprised you would use lucas as an example....because "he"(or rather lucas arts) has been so very VERY wishy washy with the development of the majority of his(thier) games.
Actally I was basing the 'luke' thing from the IP not SWG to state how that one little thing can destrictly change the whole story, I could have used 'Davros being a timelord' but very few would get that, but as you stated LA aren't too fussed about what happens from the moment they had over the keys to the IP as long as there is money in it, thankfully Games Workshop (and Tolkin Ind.) want their products to extend their IP's lore into other media, not let it be a standalone cash cow with little releavence to the actal core product, like SWG techically (at least KOTOR tries to keep everything in check).
I don't really care, tbh. It could have stealth or not. I've played a rogue in WoW, and a nightshade in DAoC. Both are pretty gimp when compared to other classes that aren't controlled by nubs, so I guess its a blessing in disguise for me.
warhammer has no stealth, no invisibility. stop asking for it please. it doesnt exist in the lore, and shouldnt be in the game.
if you want to play a rogue play wow.
You're wrong, so maybe you need to look at Warhammer lore again. One class in particular called rangers. That's just one class I remember off the top of my head. Not to mention all the classes in 40K that can stealth.
I'm not advocating for stealth, but don't be a liar.
You are correct to an extent.There are a couple of stealth-like classes in Warhammer and 40K. Which tend to die horrible deaths after their initial attack. so thats sounds like a good way to make the class. Their 1st attack is crazy powerfull able to pretty much one-shot anything within a resonable level range. But after this initial attack they are pretty much worthless, and usually die fairly easily. Also they are unable to restealth until they completely leave the area of battle.
Sounds like a fun class. You can only successfully gank a single person after which you WILL die quite easily completely negating the pleasure you would have at your success. Hey, thats how it works in game though. And I can honestly only think of 1 for 40K, never was much a Warhammer Fantasy player. Also it's based off the RPG, NOT the tabletop versions.
It's not the lore keeping stealth out! As stealth skills exsist in the IP. It's game design! It't the thing that stealth some how had to add to the fun and gamequality in a RvR , not only of the fun of the one hitting the "give me an advantage" buttom.
It has to fit into the rock, sissor , paper concept that the classes are made around. Without taking over as the single thing everything is balanced around, because then the Rock, sissor , paper would resolve around - steath, detect stealth , the class that kills detect stealth classes and so on. Avoiding that can actual be a single reason stealth is out. I
Look at the part of WAR that is going to be instanced scenarios. Stealth is a singleability that makes balance a lot more difficult, and can change the whole strategic play.
Guild Wars where every thing is instanced scenarios, and PvP is very advanced, does not have stealth as a single ability. But battles are decided just around the case that one guy manage to sneak off, and kill enemies NPC's. If WoW's stealth ability was added , it would be a broken game on a stratetic level!
The argument that stealth can be good if balanced right, does actual derive from the fact that a games balance has to be bad before stealth adds something good! If a game is balanced and fun, the strategic choices that are for players to make, does not need to be improved by the option to stealth. They are plentyfull already, and the forced dealing with stealth take away from that.
Offcause we then also loose the individual satesfaction it is to gank someone without warning! And for players arriving from an addictive game like WoW thats can be a cold turkey, but don't worry, if the game is good you won't miss it after the abstineces is gone!
My personal opinion is Stealth as seen in WOW is a non needed gamefeature! And that Mythic has seen very right when decided that it doesn't belong into a RvR game!
Originally posted by jondifool It's not the lore keeping stealth out! As stealth skills exist in the IP. It's game design! It's the thing that stealth some how had to add to the fun and game quality in a RvR , not only of the fun of the one hitting the "give me an advantage" button.Stealth isn't a '"give me an advantage" button' just like no other skill can previous to the games release be stated is a overpowered. It's all a matter of how that skill is designed.It has to fit into the rock, scissor , paper concept that the classes are made around. Without taking over as the single thing everything is balanced around, because then the Rock, scissor , paper would resolve around - stealth, detect stealth , the class that kills detect stealth classes and so on. Avoiding that can actual be a single reason stealth is out.The same thing goes for every skill in a rock-paper-scissor concept. Every skill needs to have it's "counter" not just stealth. As WAR will be much about large battles you only need to equip one or maybe two classes with stealth counters which won't make any extreme difference.Look at the part of WAR that is going to be instanced scenarios. Stealth is a single ability that makes balance a lot more difficult, and can change the whole strategic play.The argument that stealth can be good if balanced right, does actual derive from the fact that a games balance has to be bad before stealth adds something good! If a game is balanced and fun, the strategic choices that are for players to make, does not need to be improved by the option to stealth. They are plenty full already, and the forced dealing with stealth take away from that.I disagree. If something can be improved that makes the game better then that thing should at least be considered to be made.Some stuff was removed which wasn't entirely necessary to be with. GW is another case.
I really haven't read thru ALL the thread, but thought I'd post my 2 cents here. A note: I've been waiting for this game since I first heard about it's first iteration some time ago, and have played the pen & paper version since the late 80s (yes, I'm an old fart).
To me, the way WoW does it isn't very "realistic". Having someone running full speed and suddenly vanish in a field? Not too cool. But I like the additional aspect of being able to "hide". Granted, it's not my class to play, I'm not a big rogue playing type of guy, but having this mechanic can make those situations where you think you're alone a little more nerve wracking.
For me, I would make stealth like they do in a few other games, you need "shadow" or cover to hide. And if you're in an open field, you can still do it, you however have to go prone, laying down, and then you can crawl around in an open area hidden, but if someone/thing walks over you, there you are!
Or, without stealth at all, at least let people hide behind trees & whatnot. Make it so their names don't show up over their heads of they are on the other team. Can't hide in bushes if you have these big red or blue letters sticking up over your head.
Anyway, just throwing what I think out there. Can hardly wait until this comes out.
For me, I would make stealth like they do in a few other games, you need "shadow" or cover to hide. And if you're in an open field, you can still do it, you however have to go prone, laying down, and then you can crawl around in an open area hidden, but if someone/thing walks over you, there you are! Or, without stealth at all, at least let people hide behind trees & whatnot. Make it so their names don't show up over their heads of they are on the other team. Can't hide in bushes if you have these big red or blue letters sticking up over your head. Anyway, just throwing what I think out there. Can hardly wait until this comes out.
I agree with you there mate! No name tags above enemy heads would be brilliant, and would add a lot of those stealthy features you mentioned without the need of a stealth class.
They had this in DAoC, you couldn't see their names until you were up-close and personal. It was always a case of "oh who's that over there!?" in RvR, and this is another point of being able to identify your enemy with only a visual aid. (well designed -distinctive- characters, armor, weapons etc...)
Honestly i think them turning down the CC is a mistake and a relief. It added a way for players to work aorund something added that tactical part to the game and so does stealth. I think all the things DAOC has is the best it's going to be PVP wise for MMO's. It all about being tactical and figuring ways around it. I've seen people not even be messed by half the crap the CCer's throw at them. But it's also a relief for the people that get frustrated and are to lazy to delve deeper int oa game that they pay to play and figure out how to be dominate hell sometimes i loved being CCed and sometimes it mad me mad but it's all about the game and being smart not complaing
But hey, if they dont have it im pretty sure they'll add in somethign diffrent to make people mad. If it's not the CC its the stealth and how weak that particular class is,if its not that its a class being nerfed if its not that then its how unbalanced the realms are...it's always going to be something. I dont complain just adds challange to the game im choosing to pay to play for.
It's not the lore keeping stealth out! As stealth skills exist in the IP. It's game design! It's the thing that stealth some how had to add to the fun and game quality in a RvR , not only of the fun of the one hitting the "give me an advantage" button.
Stealth isn't a '"give me an advantage" button' just like no other skill can previous to the games release be stated is a overpowered. It's all a matter of how that skill is designed. It has to fit into the rock, scissor , paper concept that the classes are made around. Without taking over as the single thing everything is balanced around, because then the Rock, scissor , paper would resolve around - stealth, detect stealth , the class that kills detect stealth classes and so on. Avoiding that can actual be a single reason stealth is out. The same thing goes for every skill in a rock-paper-scissor concept. Every skill needs to have it's "counter" not just stealth. As WAR will be much about large battles you only need to equip one or maybe two classes with stealth counters which won't make any extreme difference. Look at the part of WAR that is going to be instanced scenarios. Stealth is a single ability that makes balance a lot more difficult, and can change the whole strategic play. The argument that stealth can be good if balanced right, does actual derive from the fact that a games balance has to be bad before stealth adds something good! If a game is balanced and fun, the strategic choices that are for players to make, does not need to be improved by the option to stealth. They are plenty full already, and the forced dealing with stealth take away from that. I disagree. If something can be improved that makes the game better then that thing should at least be considered to be made. Some stuff was removed which wasn't entirely necessary to be with. GW is another case.
It was considered and it was dropped. Deal with it.
Comments
The last weeks? Try the last years. This topic has been 'popular' ever since Mythic revealed their decision a long time ago in the development process.
Still it's amusing to see yet another Stealth poll pop up and watch it get buried under the 'NO' votes, showing that most people looking forward to WAR understand Mythic's decision and realize it will make a better game.
What do you mean out of? It was never in.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
The mechanics of War are setup so you wont need stealth to be stealthy you can use your surroundings to hide.
I don't really give a damn but I still stand for my opinion that balanced and well made stealth skill adds a lot more to a game. Reason:
I'm not a fan of invisibility, being 100% invisible is in most scenarios overpowered, stealth (partly invisible) is what I will be discussing here. Every skill in a game can be overpowered or underpowered, stealth is no exception. If the devs make the stealth skill balanced it won't be overpowered. There is no such thing as stealth=you win. Just because you can be partly invisible doesn't mean you will automatically win.
I personally believe that stealth adds more to a PvP experience as you aren't always sure that everyone you can see is everyone that is there. This makes you constantly ready to be attacked and thus keeping you focused all the time. Without stealth it's easy to get unfocused as you can spot a player from quite far away thus preparing yourself. A good PvP player should be able to overcome the "shock effect" stealth should have.
To sum it up: Stealth is just like any other skills, make it balanced and it's good. Stealth makes you as a PvP player more focused due to the constant threat of a person in stealth sneaking up on you.
Although I would agree a properally designed stealth methord would be welcome by all it's as I stated in the other stealth topic 'stealth' as many players know it doesn't exsist within the Warhammer mythos so it wont exsist in WAR..
This is because Mythic aren't doing what countless IP games have done which is just take the idea only and then mold it to a game (LOTRO as much as you look at it is still a cookie cutter MMO) they are making a Warhammer MMO thats the big difference, it's not based off Warhammer, it is Warhammer
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
And stick to the lore.
It has nothing to do with Warhammer lore. They are going to put in what will make the game fun, whether its in the lore or not.
And stick to the lore.
and they priity much have to:people are forgetting that much like the reason why LOTRO doesn't have the armies of mordor as 'fully playable races' and pvp isn't 'pvp', Mythic can't just go and add a 'stealth class' into the game to appise players they have to answer to Games Workshop first who very much like their IP and are very very keen on keeping WAR to 'Warhammer' standards..
They are not allow it to go completely downhill like by allowing the devs to do what they like with the IP, they've made that mistake with Mark of Chaos. For instance THQ held and continue to hold the 40k lisence due to the fact it's games keep to the 40k IP, I've yet to see a somthing within their games which I wouldn't find within the 40k mythos, sure regiments unque to the games are made however they still are what they are ment to be..
What I'm getting at is players are expecting WAR to copy WoW mainly due to the claims the 'it's a WoW clone', yet complain that it doesn't have X, Y, or Z.. Thing is WoW is controled by the owners of the IP, they can feck about with it's design and lore till their hearts content (for instance the Draenei 'issue' and the fact players have 'killed' key characters within the Warcraft lore).
Mythic can't toy and just add things in without getting a nod from GW, otheriwse GW could just pull the IP, much like what Tolkin Ind. could have done with Turbine's atemps at adding 'pvp' to LOTRO, Tolkin adimently refused to allow players to fight their own people plus there wasn't enough 'lore' behind the mordor armies to allow them playable.
Dispite player's vew on wather the lore 'matters' or not, when it's not your lore to mess with you have to answer to the higher power who owns it, thats like writing a 'new' Starwars and saying Luke was actally Sith.. you can't go adding stuff which fundermentally changes the lore or the why the world of that lore works willy nilly.
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Why do people hate stealthers? many reasons One is balance. Stealth, as in ability to not fight when you know you won't win and only fight when you want to is not overpowered by itself. After all, standing stealthed while a group of enemies runs by you isn't exactly fun, nor is waiting for the fight that you will want to engage (one where you can win)
So, because stealth by itself isn't powerful, you have to give stealthers abilitiy to kill other classes, You can't tell a stealther he'll do 20% damage of a none stealthed class, or stealthers will claim that they are uelsess (which they would be) There is no need for scouting in mmos (only eve makes scouting a very important role) so stealth itself is useless. So, instead of a stealther, you get a normal class with normal damage, but one that has stealth too. Depending on abilities stealthers get, they will have a natural target class (usually casters) and a natural enemy class (usually tanks)
Annoying part comes from the fact a caster can't do much, since you can't see a stealther, and when you can you are usually eating dirt. And tanks of course can't see stealthers, so unless you are bored even if a tank class could one shot stealthers, stealthers would still be overpowered.
Then of course the fact that you can have 3-8 stealthers together, which just gets stupid. pax3+5 arrows stickign out of you as you try to run by a bridge? "lawl, why would you run by a bridge? don't you know stealthers are camping it" is exactly why stealthers are hated. At least if it's a visible group, you can get a zerg and kill them, or soem other group will engage them and kill. But if it's stealthers, they will just move away/not engage if they feel like they can't win, then they will 3x1 you and whine on the forums how stealthers are nerfed and can't 1v1. Then when they get buffed to the point where they can 1v1, they still zerg and it gets even more stupid.
Stealthers would be fine if they were treated completely different from any other class. Things like cannot group, only one stealther can be in a given area (if another from your faction moves in you are both unstealthed) and the most imporant, there needs to be a class that not only can kill stealthers when they jump it (and wth would they jump a class that can kill them) but one that can hunt them, "see hidden" and abilities that let said class one shot stealthers.
But then, why make a stealther class and a stealther counter class, nither of which would add much to a group, when you can just cut stealthers and have balanced pvp? Oh, you need stealthers to solo with? You can solo just fine on a visible toon too, and would be able to do it much better if there weren't stealthers and stealth groups.
PS: "why would you as a caster, run solo in emain, you are just asking to be killed by a stealther, get a group noob" and then people wonder why solo rvr is dead. Screw stealthers, they kill solo game for visibles, and when no visibles solo stealthers group to win stealth wrs which completely kills solo game for visibles and almost kill it for stealthers.
Wow, the thread seems to have deviated a little...
In responce to Kremlik, Its interesting you use Lucas as an example. I Followed the development to SWG, much like how i am following the WAR development....i read the newsletters and posted on forums. Anyway, there were many many questionable calls in it development...ranging from how wookies would communicate, to how anyone could be a TKA, smuggler or a Bounty hunter if they wanted to be...and how jedi would be an ALPHA class that was exceedingly rare. There were alot of these "Does this follow the continuity?" discussions.
Then We find ourselves here, what? 5 years later? The game has gone through at least 2 full revamps from what was innitaly anounced and released. Sometimes blindly following what seems to follow the IP does not always benifit the games health. Thats why i'm supprised you would use lucas as an example....because "he"(or rather lucas arts) has been so very VERY wishy washy with the development of the majority of his(thier) games.
Bingo, I feel this is the main issue, too.
Stealth classes in existing MMORPGs are unbalanced and/or unfair in PvP because they are not properly balanced around the stealth mechanic, often so they are useful in PvE.
If stealth were to be properly balanced, the classes with it would need heavy penalties. Things like doing minimal damage while visible, only having positional attacks do any useful damage, dying easily, etc. If a class was designed so that it could kill people relatively easy when surprising them while stealthed but was quite useless when not stealthed, then it would be fair.
This, of course, is impractical in actual gameplay, as the previous poster noted. Few people would enjoy a class that is either on or off, with no in between, or could only be a scouter. So, developers tend to design a full class, with tons of combat abilities, like the WoW rogue, and then simply add stealth as a bonus but not a core feature that is essential to success. This results in a class that is at least competent when visible, and is superpowered when stealthed.
It is silly that a class can choose its fights, running and ganking at will, and can even put up a good fight when discovered. Discovery should equal death if concealment offers so many bonuses, but it does not.
Anyway, no mainstream games will ever make a stealth class so specialized, and so I am glad there will be no stealth class in WAR.
Thats another thing i wanted to post...
"Stealth class" and "High(est) damage class" have become synonymous in almost every other game. I think thats a large reason why alot of people are clinging to this lack of stealth class issue....wether they realize it or not. In the majority of MMO's if you play the stealth class it gives you a degree of "role security...kinda like job security.
I'm glad they have stuck to thier guns on the no stealth class....but i'm not entierly oppose to the idea of stealth classes. However, the concept and definition of a stealth class needs to be reworked.....they need to account for the fact that they have an ability no one else hass and add in other benifits to those classes that make them less then "worthless without top of the line DPS".
Actally I was basing the 'luke' thing from the IP not SWG to state how that one little thing can destrictly change the whole story, I could have used 'Davros being a timelord' but very few would get that, but as you stated LA aren't too fussed about what happens from the moment they had over the keys to the IP as long as there is money in it, thankfully Games Workshop (and Tolkin Ind.) want their products to extend their IP's lore into other media, not let it be a standalone cash cow with little releavence to the actal core product, like SWG techically (at least KOTOR tries to keep everything in check).
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
I don't really care, tbh. It could have stealth or not. I've played a rogue in WoW, and a nightshade in DAoC. Both are pretty gimp when compared to other classes that aren't controlled by nubs, so I guess its a blessing in disguise for me.
I'm not advocating for stealth, but don't be a liar.
You are correct to an extent.There are a couple of stealth-like classes in Warhammer and 40K. Which tend to die horrible deaths after their initial attack. so thats sounds like a good way to make the class. Their 1st attack is crazy powerfull able to pretty much one-shot anything within a resonable level range. But after this initial attack they are pretty much worthless, and usually die fairly easily. Also they are unable to restealth until they completely leave the area of battle.
Sounds like a fun class. You can only successfully gank a single person after which you WILL die quite easily completely negating the pleasure you would have at your success. Hey, thats how it works in game though. And I can honestly only think of 1 for 40K, never was much a Warhammer Fantasy player. Also it's based off the RPG, NOT the tabletop versions.
It's not the lore keeping stealth out! As stealth skills exsist in the IP. It's game design! It't the thing that stealth some how had to add to the fun and gamequality in a RvR , not only of the fun of the one hitting the "give me an advantage" buttom.
It has to fit into the rock, sissor , paper concept that the classes are made around. Without taking over as the single thing everything is balanced around, because then the Rock, sissor , paper would resolve around - steath, detect stealth , the class that kills detect stealth classes and so on. Avoiding that can actual be a single reason stealth is out. I
Look at the part of WAR that is going to be instanced scenarios. Stealth is a singleability that makes balance a lot more difficult, and can change the whole strategic play.
Guild Wars where every thing is instanced scenarios, and PvP is very advanced, does not have stealth as a single ability. But battles are decided just around the case that one guy manage to sneak off, and kill enemies NPC's. If WoW's stealth ability was added , it would be a broken game on a stratetic level!
The argument that stealth can be good if balanced right, does actual derive from the fact that a games balance has to be bad before stealth adds something good! If a game is balanced and fun, the strategic choices that are for players to make, does not need to be improved by the option to stealth. They are plentyfull already, and the forced dealing with stealth take away from that.
Offcause we then also loose the individual satesfaction it is to gank someone without warning! And for players arriving from an addictive game like WoW thats can be a cold turkey, but don't worry, if the game is good you won't miss it after the abstineces is gone!
My personal opinion is Stealth as seen in WOW is a non needed gamefeature! And that Mythic has seen very right when decided that it doesn't belong into a RvR game!
I really haven't read thru ALL the thread, but thought I'd post my 2 cents here. A note: I've been waiting for this game since I first heard about it's first iteration some time ago, and have played the pen & paper version since the late 80s (yes, I'm an old fart).
To me, the way WoW does it isn't very "realistic". Having someone running full speed and suddenly vanish in a field? Not too cool. But I like the additional aspect of being able to "hide". Granted, it's not my class to play, I'm not a big rogue playing type of guy, but having this mechanic can make those situations where you think you're alone a little more nerve wracking.
For me, I would make stealth like they do in a few other games, you need "shadow" or cover to hide. And if you're in an open field, you can still do it, you however have to go prone, laying down, and then you can crawl around in an open area hidden, but if someone/thing walks over you, there you are!
Or, without stealth at all, at least let people hide behind trees & whatnot. Make it so their names don't show up over their heads of they are on the other team. Can't hide in bushes if you have these big red or blue letters sticking up over your head.
Anyway, just throwing what I think out there. Can hardly wait until this comes out.
I agree with you there mate! No name tags above enemy heads would be brilliant, and would add a lot of those stealthy features you mentioned without the need of a stealth class.
They had this in DAoC, you couldn't see their names until you were up-close and personal. It was always a case of "oh who's that over there!?" in RvR, and this is another point of being able to identify your enemy with only a visual aid. (well designed -distinctive- characters, armor, weapons etc...)
-iCeh
No stealth in War.
Honestly i think them turning down the CC is a mistake and a relief. It added a way for players to work aorund something added that tactical part to the game and so does stealth. I think all the things DAOC has is the best it's going to be PVP wise for MMO's. It all about being tactical and figuring ways around it. I've seen people not even be messed by half the crap the CCer's throw at them. But it's also a relief for the people that get frustrated and are to lazy to delve deeper int oa game that they pay to play and figure out how to be dominate hell sometimes i loved being CCed and sometimes it mad me mad but it's all about the game and being smart not complaing
But hey, if they dont have it im pretty sure they'll add in somethign diffrent to make people mad. If it's not the CC its the stealth and how weak that particular class is,if its not that its a class being nerfed if its not that then its how unbalanced the realms are...it's always going to be something. I dont complain just adds challange to the game im choosing to pay to play for.
yay! no stealth!
The following statement is true: I just told a lie
It was considered and it was dropped. Deal with it.