Having an incomplete/flawed game which may or may not get fixed and having a complete game that evolves is not the same thing.
TR is flawed in so many areas that imo there is no fixing. The OP brings up most of the points but there are others as well. Like the meaningless of PvP, the tiny maps, no point in playing past level 30, repeteable missions and same looking mobs from level 1 to 50 and crafting and so on.
It's simply a flawed, incomplete MMORPG and I doubt they will do much to change many of these flaws because it would require to much developer work and as such, money.
By your complaints then, every mmorpg is flawed.
First, when is PvP truly meaningful? PvP typically is usually 1 vs 1 or group vs group combat that has no real significance to the storyline of the game. Many people who PvP couldn't care less if its meaningful or not. They usually just want to either just fight against other things than AI, or roll over people so they can flex their epeens. It's prevalent in every FFA PvP game, which is usually why a lot of them fail (shadowbane), altered (UO), or have non FFA areas (EvE). I would say that the closest to where PvP really matters is EvE, however any game truly doesn't matter as it's technically a time waster.
PvP is meaningful when you fight over something that is persistant and hold some value for you or your guild. Like a fort, leveling spot, quest giver or good NPC selling spots. That way you know what the PvP fights you are involved in actually means something for the future of your character and/or clan.
Second, when is there a point to go past lvl 30, or for that matter any level, in any mmorpg? For fun? Well, I'd classify gaining a new class and testing new abilities as fun. If your complaint is lack of content, well that will be fixed. Remember, this is a new game, and all new games have room for improvement. Of course, you are probably spoiled on WoW's "massive" content (coughs in between laughter)... so impatience will get the better of you.
The point could be many different things. Like being more useful in PvP, being more useful in NPC raids, being able to do NPC raids, to unluck new exciting content and so on. TR has none of that since the content is more or less the same from level 1 to 50, no interesting raids that I know of, no PvP except some kind of FPS style fragfest and the list goes on.
Third, repeatable missions. I don't think I've actually encountered a repeatable mission in TR yet. Of course, if you are referring to similar missions, then let me list games that have those.
EvE
EQ 2
WoW
AO
Pre CU SWG (mission terminals)
That's just a handful that I could think up off the top of my head that I've played. So, by your definition, those failed as well due to similar quests/missions.
So what you are saying is that since all other, older MMORPGS did that then it is fine that we do it as well? Ever heard of innovativity? Having repeteable missions for thousands of players in the same world can be done if it is done good. But having the same NPC being escorted to the same place a million times just kills any immersity.
Fourth, what mmorpg hasn't used the same models, with minor tweaks, for mobs throughout the whole game? Should I list those as well? Seriously, this game is not even 3 months old. There's room for improvement, which means more mobs with different skins will appear.
Things arent quite so black and white. Reusing models can be done to some extent without being bad but in TR it has been done to an extreme. The mobs I was fighting in the Wilderness zone looked more or less excactly the same as the ones in the Divide and the one after that (forgot the name). And now you are talking about level 1-25 which is half the content of the game and from what I heard from others it is the same from 25-50. There are some unique, boss mobs but the cannon fodder looks the same at level 1 as they do at level 25 and from what I heard at 50.
About the only point I agree with you on is that crafting does suck in this game. But, as I said, there is still room for improvement. Yet, you don't care about that, as you just want to continue to bash the game without actually using logic or reason.
I dont see where I am not using logic and reason as I have explained to you in greater detail. But since I cancelled my account yesterday and probably wont play it anymore then it is time to move on. However since I wasted money on this game I have the right to voice my opinions as a dissapointed customer.
So keep in mind that I PAYED for this game and have every right to say that I am not happy with the experience and tell others about it.
First, when is PvP truly meaningful? PvP typically is usually 1 vs 1 or group vs group combat that has no real significance to the storyline of the game. Many people who PvP couldn't care less if its meaningful or not. They usually just want to either just fight against other things than AI, or roll over people so they can flex their epeens. It's prevalent in every FFA PvP game, which is usually why a lot of them fail (shadowbane), altered (UO), or have non FFA areas (EvE). I would say that the closest to where PvP really matters is EvE, however any game truly doesn't matter as it's technically a time waster.
PvP is meaningful when you fight over something that is persistant and hold some value for you or your guild. Like a fort, leveling spot, quest giver or good NPC selling spots. That way you know what the PvP fights you are involved in actually means something for the future of your character and/or clan.
True, but it has been proven that FFA PvP MMORPGs do not work without giving players the option to actually choose to PvP or not. Even EvE, which looks to be the most successful PvP-centric MMORPG has a non-PvP area. Therefore, PvP is not wanted nor cared for by all players.
Second, when is there a point to go past lvl 30, or for that matter any level, in any mmorpg? For fun? Well, I'd classify gaining a new class and testing new abilities as fun. If your complaint is lack of content, well that will be fixed. Remember, this is a new game, and all new games have room for improvement. Of course, you are probably spoiled on WoW's "massive" content (coughs in between laughter)... so impatience will get the better of you.
The point could be many different things. Like being more useful in PvP, being more useful in NPC raids, being able to do NPC raids, to unluck new exciting content and so on. TR has none of that since the content is more or less the same from level 1 to 50, no interesting raids that I know of, no PvP except some kind of FPS style fragfest and the list goes on.
The game is not 3 months old yet. Therefore, there is still room for improvement on content. The power gamers will just have to wait it out a bit as they continue to develop the content of the game. This is especially true as this game was touted as being a casual game.
Third, repeatable missions. I don't think I've actually encountered a repeatable mission in TR yet. Of course, if you are referring to similar missions, then let me list games that have those.
EvE
EQ 2
WoW
AO
Pre CU SWG (mission terminals)
That's just a handful that I could think up off the top of my head that I've played. So, by your definition, those failed as well due to similar quests/missions.
So what you are saying is that since all other, older MMORPGS did that then it is fine that we do it as well? Ever heard of innovativity? Having repeteable missions for thousands of players in the same world can be done if it is done good. But having the same NPC being escorted to the same place a million times just kills any immersity.
I thought you originally were complaining about quests being similar from one area to the next. Now that you explain what you are meaning, I was wrong with my assumption. What you want will never happen in any mmorpg at all. Preventing content from being experienced by paying customers is a big no-no. It will never happen. If you are so incensed that TR, nor any other MMORPGs does not have this quest system that you are wanting, then I have a suggestion for you. You might want to stop looking at MMORPGs and focus on single-player games, as what you suggest will never happen. It's innovative, but it will never happen.
Fourth, what mmorpg hasn't used the same models, with minor tweaks, for mobs throughout the whole game? Should I list those as well? Seriously, this game is not even 3 months old. There's room for improvement, which means more mobs with different skins will appear.
Things arent quite so black and white. Reusing models can be done to some extent without being bad but in TR it has been done to an extreme. The mobs I was fighting in the Wilderness zone looked more or less excactly the same as the ones in the Divide and the one after that (forgot the name). And now you are talking about level 1-25 which is half the content of the game and from what I heard from others it is the same from 25-50. There are some unique, boss mobs but the cannon fodder looks the same at level 1 as they do at level 25 and from what I heard at 50.
True, things aren't always black and white. However, models are reused for a purpose, so that the devs can focus on other things that need fixing/improvements. Anyways, I think you are forgetting the story of this game. This game is set in a war setting. Just like in any war, the "cannon fodder" troops look the same. At most, they could upgrade some of the looks of the armor on higher-level Bane troops. Yet, those troops will look extremely similar to the rest.
About the only point I agree with you on is that crafting does suck in this game. But, as I said, there is still room for improvement. Yet, you don't care about that, as you just want to continue to bash the game without actually using logic or reason.
I dont see where I am not using logic and reason as I have explained to you in greater detail. But since I cancelled my account yesterday and probably wont play it anymore then it is time to move on. However since I wasted money on this game I have the right to voice my opinions as a dissapointed customer.
So keep in mind that I PAYED for this game and have every right to say that I am not happy with the experience and tell others about it.
Umm... point me in the direction of a post I had written that I stated that you "didn't have a right to post your opinion." That's right... there are none, because I haven't said that. You have the right to voice your opinion as a dissatisfied customer. However, you must accept and understand that not everyone agrees with you on your assessment of the game.
. PvP is meaningful when you fight over something that is persistant and hold some value for you or your guild. Like a fort, leveling spot, quest giver or good NPC selling spots. That way you know what the PvP fights you are involved in actually means something for the future of your character and/or clan. True, but it has been proven that FFA PvP MMORPGs do not work without giving players the option to actually choose to PvP or not. Even EvE, which looks to be the most successful PvP-centric MMORPG has a non-PvP area. Therefore, PvP is not wanted nor cared for by all players. Eh? Why are you talking about FFA PvP in all areas? You could still have non PvP zones but that doesnt mean that the PvP zones being fought over cant hold some value. True that PvP is not wanted by all players but I would say a significant part wants some kind of PvP. What I am saying is that the devs shouldnt just make some meaningless PvP just to have PvP but give some purpose and put it in the context of MMORPGs, not some FPS ripoff.
The point could be many different things. Like being more useful in PvP, being more useful in NPC raids, being able to do NPC raids, to unluck new exciting content and so on. TR has none of that since the content is more or less the same from level 1 to 50, no interesting raids that I know of, no PvP except some kind of FPS style fragfest and the list goes on. The game is not 3 months old yet. Therefore, there is still room for improvement on content. The power gamers will just have to wait it out a bit as they continue to develop the content of the game. This is especially true as this game was touted as being a casual game. So you should keep on playing because the devs might add something to look forward for in the future? Sorry Im not buying that. Im not a powergamer but was bored at level 25 because I was basically doing the same things as I was at level 1 and from what I heard from powergamers that is basically what you would do at level 50, plus some meaningless PvP.
So what you are saying is that since all other, older MMORPGS did that then it is fine that we do it as well? Ever heard of innovativity? Having repeteable missions for thousands of players in the same world can be done if it is done good. But having the same NPC being escorted to the same place a million times just kills any immersity. I thought you originally were complaining about quests being similar from one area to the next. Now that you explain what you are meaning, I was wrong with my assumption. What you want will never happen in any mmorpg at all. Preventing content from being experienced by paying customers is a big no-no. It will never happen. If you are so incensed that TR, nor any other MMORPGs does not have this quest system that you are wanting, then I have a suggestion for you. You might want to stop looking at MMORPGs and focus on single-player games, as what you suggest will never happen. It's innovative, but it will never happen. Will never happen? With that kind of attitude nothing, will ever evolve. I mean, for now I would be happy if they would just remove all these instanced quests and areas because they are against everything a persistant MMORPG stands for. I rather level by killing mobs because then it is atleast a bit believable that there is a source for these mobs that I kill and more can be produced/spawned. But telling a dying mans son that his father is dying (some stupid quest at wilderness) a million times by million different people in the same persistant world is just retarted.
Things arent quite so black and white. Reusing models can be done to some extent without being bad but in TR it has been done to an extreme. The mobs I was fighting in the Wilderness zone looked more or less excactly the same as the ones in the Divide and the one after that (forgot the name). And now you are talking about level 1-25 which is half the content of the game and from what I heard from others it is the same from 25-50. There are some unique, boss mobs but the cannon fodder looks the same at level 1 as they do at level 25 and from what I heard at 50. True, things aren't always black and white. However, models are reused for a purpose, so that the devs can focus on other things that need fixing/improvements. Anyways, I think you are forgetting the story of this game. This game is set in a war setting. Just like in any war, the "cannon fodder" troops look the same. At most, they could upgrade some of the looks of the armor on higher-level Bane troops. Yet, those troops will look extremely similar to the rest. They look the same but do alot of more damage and have alot more hp yet I can look alot more different than I did at player 1? That doesnt make any sense. Having not created enough models because you need to spend time to finish the game in other aspects isnt an excuse. I know that in the MMORPG industry it has become a standard to release a game before it is finished for release yet some MMORPGs manage to not do so. Such as WoW, they had ten times as many models in the game at release than TR did and so did many other MMORPGs. I dont see where I am not using logic and reason as I have explained to you in greater detail. But since I cancelled my account yesterday and probably wont play it anymore then it is time to move on. However since I wasted money on this game I have the right to voice my opinions as a dissapointed customer. So keep in mind that I PAYED for this game and have every right to say that I am not happy with the experience and tell others about it. Umm... point me in the direction of a post I had written that I stated that you "didn't have a right to post your opinion." That's right... there are none, because I haven't said that. You have the right to voice your opinion as a dissatisfied customer. However, you must accept and understand that not everyone agrees with you on your assessment of the game. You said and I quote: "as you just want to continue to bash the game without actually using logic or reason." By bashing I assume you mean voicing my opinions? Yes not everyone doesnt have to agree with me but look around you, look at these forums and most importantly look at the servers. Four servers which are most of the time low to medium populated, that is weak for a game released just a couple of months ago. Even Garriot has admitted that the expected numbers of customers were higher than what it currently is. I wonder why that is...
EDIT: I just want to add one last thing. You said that I should focus on single player games. That is funny because I feel the same about people that want instances, quests and a storyline which every player can follow. I mean, that is a single player experience but they want it in a MMORPG package which is contradictive to the very nature of MMORPGs since it is supposed to be a world where you share with thousands of other people and as such you cannot demand single player elements such as the same quest being done, the exact same way by thousands of people because that will kill the very spirit of living in the same world and sharing its resources.
And that is what is killing and have perverted the genre into some weird single player game but running pararell with thousands of other people playing the same single player game but somehow centralised on a server.
Remember it's a new game and one of the articles they have out says there planning on implementing more in game once the percentage of end game players rises.
LOL, that's just crazy...
You cannot expect people to buy into a game based on future promises that may not ever happen.
If I find a piece of crap on my floor I'm going to get rid of it instead of hoping it starts to smell better...
Unfortunately that's standard these days. I know of NO game that was released with their end game content in place. And if there is one I'd very much like it pointed out to me so I can change my perceptions of gaming companies and their financial div. thing is these games cost a lot to just get all the basics done. Most games rely on game sales and subs to pay for end game development.
I'd like to point out at this time that Hero classes would be introduced into WoW 6 months AFTER release. Three years on and we have one..coming in 6 months...I smell crap...but it seems to be getting better...
After bashing the crap out of TR based on beta I decided to grab it and have a look. To be honest it's not that bad. I've seen worse go to release and based on the BS our politicans are selling us can we really get upset at what a gaming company is selling us. If one gets us cranked and not the other then something is really wrong. It's a game, LU. And the three day trial thing is working. Servers becoming more and more populated.
I for opne and enjoying mt TR experience even if their launch was so screwed up it was laughable.
I have removed a lot of the previous replies because I didn't want this reply to turn into a 6 page long reply. Therefore, for anyone who is reading this post and is interested in the previous topics discussed, just look for the previous posts between Yamota and I. Now, on to this reply... .
So you should keep on playing because the devs might add something to look forward for in the future? Sorry Im not buying that. Im not a powergamer but was bored at level 25 because I was basically doing the same things as I was at level 1 and from what I heard from powergamers that is basically what you would do at level 50, plus some meaningless PvP. I guess, by your beliefs, a game should be fully finished before it even hits the door. As in, all content finished and nothing else to look forward too. Yeah... that's realistic. People complain about the time it takes for mmorpgs to come out. They complain even more when a game keeps being pushed back. Just think how much longer it would take for a game to be released if the devs had to implement every single content, including endgame. Yeah... it would be exorbitant, and people would bash that game for taking way too long in development. Also, I think you are forgetting the whole basis for the story of this game. It is based on wartime. Therefore, you are continuously fighting the enemy. Truly, what else do you do during wartime? Play cards? Chess? I guess they could add those into the game as mini-games. However, other than that, I fail to see what else could be added that wasn't war-based. I've seen arguments for player housing (umm... I thought that was what the tents were for) or raids (more war-time content). However, the main premise of war-time is killing your enemies. Now, I agree that TR is not finished and lacks in some content. However, it's nowhere near the doom and gloom you try to paint with your posts. If devs have access to what the playerbase wants with accordance to content, then the devs have a better chance of making content that the playerbase wants. However, with the mind-set of majority of beta testers in today's age, that proper communication of what the playerbase wants is not heard by the devs. And, what I mean by that is, I find majority of beta testers are just in it to try out the game before anyone else, then complain that the game "sucks" (duh! It is beta!) then leave and bash the game on whatever forums they post on.
Will never happen? With that kind of attitude nothing, will ever evolve. I mean, for now I would be happy if they would just remove all these instanced quests and areas because they are against everything a persistant MMORPG stands for. I rather level by killing mobs because then it is atleast a bit believable that there is a source for these mobs that I kill and more can be produced/spawned. But telling a dying mans son that his father is dying (some stupid quest at wilderness) a million times by million different people in the same persistant world is just retarted. It's called realistic attitude. What you want will never happen. If player A does Quest A before any other player, then, by what you want, no other player would be able to experience Quest A. It would prevent other paying customers from experiencing content that they've PAID to experience. That's a bad system and promotes even more elitism. Also, it would hinder the production of other content by the devs as they would continuously have to keep coming up with new quests to replace the ones that were already "experienced" by other players. Yeah... that is not realistic. And, about your complaint of instanced content. I agree that instancing has gotten out of hand with some mmorpgs. However, I view that the problem with not instancing is far greater and stems all the way back to EQ1. Players camping mobs for hours at a time. That didn't allow other players a chance to actually kill the mob to finish a quest or find a rare item they needed. Hence, it prevented paying customers to experience content that they've PAID to experience.
They look the same but do alot of more damage and have alot more hp yet I can look alot more different than I did at player 1? That doesnt make any sense. Having not created enough models because you need to spend time to finish the game in other aspects isnt an excuse. I know that in the MMORPG industry it has become a standard to release a game before it is finished for release yet some MMORPGs manage to not do so. Such as WoW, they had ten times as many models in the game at release than TR did and so did many other MMORPGs. So, you are deciding to nit pick on the lack of models in the game. You actually want more models rather than actual improved gameplay? Because, that's basically what you just said in the section above. Company's only have so much time before they have to release their games. And, considering this amount of time, I definitely would prefer good gameplay over differences in model types (aka eye candy). And, yes WoW had a lot more models than TR does. However, I believe you are pulling that "ten times as many models in the game at release" somewhere other than fact. And, yes WoW had good gameplay. However, WoW failed at one aspect at launch that TR did not... server stability. TR had a smooth launch. WoW's servers would crash if you had a certain amount of people in one area. And, coming back to my original point here, I would prefer stable servers to differences in model types (aka eye candy).
You said and I quote: "as you just want to continue to bash the game without actually using logic or reason." By bashing I assume you mean voicing my opinions? Yes not everyone doesnt have to agree with me but look around you, look at these forums and most importantly look at the servers. Four servers which are most of the time low to medium populated, that is weak for a game released just a couple of months ago. Even Garriot has admitted that the expected numbers of customers were higher than what it currently is. I wonder why that is... No, I mean that you continually voice your negative opinion on a game that you have admitted that you don't even play anymore. Personally, I have a large list of games that I have played and I thought sucked horribly (AC, Lineage 2, EQ1 just to name a few) yet you don't see me over on their forums voicing my hate for those games. Nope... because I have moved on. I leave those forums to the people who still play those games and actually want to discuss topics about the game other than having to continually defend their game from being bashed by people who haven't moved on with their hate of those games. Reasons why there's low population:
This isn't WoW, thus no millions of players at the release of the game to flood the game's servers. This game has had no official advertisements anywhere on the internet. At least I haven't seen any advertisements of this game on any site I have visited on the internet. Thus, that's a massive failure on the part of their marketing team (those guys should be fired). Going back to my beta testers issue in one of my comments above... beta people trying the game (just so they could play before anyone else) and complaining that the game "sucked" without actually helping the devs improve the game. Then, complaining about it on forums like these. It's a common issue in many mmorpgs now-a-days.
EDIT: I just want to add one last thing. You said that I should focus on single player games. That is funny because I feel the same about people that want instances, quests and a storyline which every player can follow. I mean, that is a single player experience but they want it in a MMORPG package which is contradictive to the very nature of MMORPGs since it is supposed to be a world where you share with thousands of other people and as such you cannot demand single player elements such as the same quest being done, the exact same way by thousands of people because that will kill the very spirit of living in the same world and sharing its resources.
And that is what is killing and have perverted the genre into some weird single player game but running pararell with thousands of other people playing the same single player game but somehow centralised on a server.
The issue of "instances" has already been discussed above. Therefore, I will not comment on it again here. "...quests and a storyline which every player can follow." I thought that was the purpose of mmorpgs. To allow every player to experience the content that the devs have placed for the paying customers. Every argument you have seems to revolve around not letting every paying customer experience content.
God i love when people just serve people on forums...
(m not going for a review here btw, just randomness, and expect horrible sentence structure)
Im all for what vato is saying.
Ive been playing a month before release and im 31 and i really see no problems with the game, besides content but vato you already said that far better then i ever could.
Hell ive never gotten to end game level in any mmo. (would have if eq2 didnt fking have 90000 expansions)
Once i hit 30 i did feel a lack of content, but thats to be expect from a newly released game. With PAU's and command squads within 2-3 months from now i thought well now thats something to look forward to.
So i toned down my grind speed, and played more casual. (From my experience TR is one of the most Casual mmos i have ever played) I ended up chillin at CP's dropping turrets down and raving behind the shield, because if theres no reason to be 50 right now besides, BEING 50 then you might as well goof around and bother noobs. (always good fun to drop 3 turrets in imp valley haha)
The combat in this game surpasses every mmo i have played, and i actually wished more were like this.
The game just lacks the grind feel to me, unless im doing mishes, which in my past mmos, i literally never did becuase i hate going around killing boars becuase some guy is the biggest wuss in the world. Least in this game the mishes give a great amount of xp, which brings me to another point.
This game is pretty short if you just spam mishes, you could hit 50 in a month with like 3-4 full days worth of hours put in if you knew what you were doing, cource thats if all the mish bugs were non-exsistant.
Enough of my bad sentences, last words... um out of 10?..... id say 8.2 roughly right now, after that end game stuff comes out id say more round 9 something.
vato you rule, and hopefully i didnt say anything you can throw paragraphs at me unless its ripping on my bad sentence skills.
Coir: "I know of NO game that was released with their end game content in place. And if there is one I'd very much like it pointed out to me so I can change my perceptions of gaming companies and their financial div."
I think UO when it frst came out had its end game setup. UO's end game was player created because of its sandbox structure. Although now the sand has been sucked away so I wouldn't say the same thing about its end game anymore.
There are probably other sandbox games which also qualify.
Originally posted by Vato26 So you should keep on playing because the devs might add something to look forward for in the future? Sorry Im not buying that. Im not a powergamer but was bored at level 25 because I was basically doing the same things as I was at level 1 and from what I heard from powergamers that is basically what you would do at level 50, plus some meaningless PvP. I guess, by your beliefs, a game should be fully finished before it even hits the door. As in, all content finished and nothing else to look forward too. Yeah... that's realistic. People complain about the time it takes for mmorpgs to come out. They complain even more when a game keeps being pushed back. Just think how much longer it would take for a game to be released if the devs had to implement every single content, including endgame. Yeah... it would be exorbitant, and people would bash that game for taking way too long in development.
OMG! A game released in a finished state and with end game content! How can that be? Hey man, just because you have become brainwashed in thinking that you should pay devs before they have finished the game then that is your problem. However that is not the norm of developing most products on the market. As for what people would criticize (dont know why you seem to think that criticism equals bashing) the game for I cant say but I rather want a finished game instead of a prematurely released product.
Also, I think you are forgetting the whole basis for the story of this game. It is based on wartime. Therefore, you are continuously fighting the enemy. Truly, what else do you do during wartime? Play cards? Chess? I guess they could add those into the game as mini-games. However, other than that, I fail to see what else could be added that wasn't war-based. I've seen arguments for player housing (umm... I thought that was what the tents were for) or raids (more war-time content). However, the main premise of war-time is killing your enemies. What wartime? I repeat from what I said before. There is no wartime, there is no way of affecting the war effort because there is no war effort. Its just some made up crap to give you an excuse to fire on endlessly spawning mobs and doing instanced, repeteable quests. This is supposed to be a MMORPG, meaning the world should be a persistant, virtual world where you as a player can interact and impact said world. That is how the ideas of MMORPGs started with UO. Now, I agree that TR is not finished and lacks in some content. However, it's nowhere near the doom and gloom you try to paint with your posts. If devs have access to what the playerbase wants with accordance to content, then the devs have a better chance of making content that the playerbase wants. However, with the mind-set of majority of beta testers in today's age, that proper communication of what the playerbase wants is not heard by the devs. And, what I mean by that is, I find majority of beta testers are just in it to try out the game before anyone else, then complain that the game "sucks" (duh! It is beta!) then leave and bash the game on whatever forums they post on. From what I read the beta testers didnt just say it sucks. Many of them critizised (what you called bashing) the game and said why the game would be a failure. If you open your eyes and stop thinking that everyone who doesnt like the game is out to bash the game then maybe you would realise that the game has some major issues. I am not going to repeat those here but there have been many posts regarding the control points, logos, grouping (or lack thereof) and lack of content in this game. But this has all been ignored by the devs.
Will never happen? With that kind of attitude nothing, will ever evolve. I mean, for now I would be happy if they would just remove all these instanced quests and areas because they are against everything a persistant MMORPG stands for. I rather level by killing mobs because then it is atleast a bit believable that there is a source for these mobs that I kill and more can be produced/spawned. But telling a dying mans son that his father is dying (some stupid quest at wilderness) a million times by million different people in the same persistant world is just retarted. It's called realistic attitude. What you want will never happen. If player A does Quest A before any other player, then, by what you want, no other player would be able to experience Quest A. It would prevent other paying customers from experiencing content that they've PAID to experience. That's a bad system and promotes even more elitism. Also, it would hinder the production of other content by the devs as they would continuously have to keep coming up with new quests to replace the ones that were already "experienced" by other players. Yeah... that is not realistic. This is excactly what I mean with having a single player mindset when playing a MMORPG. This isnt a single player! You are not paying to be able to experience every single content of the game because that is not possible in a virtual world where you are supposed to share the world. Do you understand the meaning of share? It means that not everyone can have everything, play a single player game if you want that and that is why Im saying that TR and many other MMORPGs released are nothing but single player games but in an MMORPG package. And, about your complaint of instanced content. I agree that instancing has gotten out of hand with some mmorpgs. However, I view that the problem with not instancing is far greater and stems all the way back to EQ1. Players camping mobs for hours at a time. That didn't allow other players a chance to actually kill the mob to finish a quest or find a rare item they needed. Hence, it prevented paying customers to experience content that they've PAID to experience. Again... sharing and in this case competing for resources is one of the things you do when you share an online world.
They look the same but do alot of more damage and have alot more hp yet I can look alot more different than I did at player 1? That doesnt make any sense. Having not created enough models because you need to spend time to finish the game in other aspects isnt an excuse. I know that in the MMORPG industry it has become a standard to release a game before it is finished for release yet some MMORPGs manage to not do so. Such as WoW, they had ten times as many models in the game at release than TR did and so did many other MMORPGs. So, you are deciding to nit pick on the lack of models in the game. You actually want more models rather than actual improved gameplay? Because, that's basically what you just said in the section above. Company's only have so much time before they have to release their games. And, considering this amount of time, I definitely would prefer good gameplay over differences in model types (aka eye candy). Again, I guess I have to repeat myself here, just because the gameplay is lacking doesnt mean you can neglect other areas. You finish all areas and then you release the game, I am a programmer myself and I know that you cant release products with lack of common features and then expect to keep that customer. He will just go to another product with these features and I hate to break it to you but there are scores of MMORPGs out there with many fold (ten was just a number, but it was significantly more) as many models as TR and that was at release. I know because I played all those games at release and TR is the one with the least amounts of models compared to any of the following games: WoW, EQ 1 & 2, AC 1 & 2, Shadowbane, UO, SWG, AO, CoH. Sure those games had problems but atleast they had enough models which made you feel that you were progressing the game. And, yes WoW had a lot more models than TR does. However, I believe you are pulling that "ten times as many models in the game at release" somewhere other than fact. And, yes WoW had good gameplay. However, WoW failed at one aspect at launch that TR did not... server stability. TR had a smooth launch. WoW's servers would crash if you had a certain amount of people in one area. And, coming back to my original point here, I would prefer stable servers to differences in model types (aka eye candy). What do you need server stability for if the rest of the game is lacking?
You said and I quote: "as you just want to continue to bash the game without actually using logic or reason." By bashing I assume you mean voicing my opinions? Yes not everyone doesnt have to agree with me but look around you, look at these forums and most importantly look at the servers. Four servers which are most of the time low to medium populated, that is weak for a game released just a couple of months ago. Even Garriot has admitted that the expected numbers of customers were higher than what it currently is. I wonder why that is... No, I mean that you continually voice your negative opinion on a game that you have admitted that you don't even play anymore. Personally, I have a large list of games that I have played and I thought sucked horribly (AC, Lineage 2, EQ1 just to name a few) yet you don't see me over on their forums voicing my hate for those games. Nope... because I have moved on. So? That's your choice. Im on my spare time and if I want to spend my spare time expressing my opinion about the game so other people will not just get the fanboys point of view then that is my right. And I dont hate TR, its a casual single player game pretending to be a MMORPG, Im just expressing my, mostly negative, views on the game. I leave those forums to the people who still play those games and actually want to discuss topics about the game other than having to continually defend their game from being bashed by people who haven't moved on with their hate of those games. Uh? I guess we should then censor all negative opinions people have about products that they have used. If I hadnt actually played the game then you might have a point. But I have and Im expressing my experience with it, kind of like a review. Reasons why there's low population:
This isn't WoW, thus no millions of players at the release of the game to flood the game's servers. This game has had no official advertisements anywhere on the internet. At least I haven't seen any advertisements of this game on any site I have visited on the internet. Thus, that's a massive failure on the part of their marketing team (those guys should be fired). Going back to my beta testers issue in one of my comments above... beta people trying the game (just so they could play before anyone else) and complaining that the game "sucked" without actually helping the devs improve the game. Then, complaining about it on forums like these. It's a common issue in many mmorpgs now-a-days.
LOL! You have the reason this isnt wow as a reason for this game not being succesful. So by that logic then only WoW can be a succesful MMORPG? Marketing is a way to get people to try the game, not to keep them playing the game. This game lacks so much content that even if people would try it they would get bored so quick. I got bored in less than two weeks which is the quickest in any of the MMORPGS I have played in my ten years of experience of MMORPGs. Possible exception is Horizon but that game was a joke, not a game. Yes, all we are saying is that the game sucked. So the several houndreds of lines in my posts have been "it sucks" repeteated after each other. Maybe that is what you are seeing because you cant see past your fanatic fanboyism you have for this game?
EDIT: I just want to add one last thing. You said that I should focus on single player games. That is funny because I feel the same about people that want instances, quests and a storyline which every player can follow. I mean, that is a single player experience but they want it in a MMORPG package which is contradictive to the very nature of MMORPGs since it is supposed to be a world where you share with thousands of other people and as such you cannot demand single player elements such as the same quest being done, the exact same way by thousands of people because that will kill the very spirit of living in the same world and sharing its resources.
And that is what is killing and have perverted the genre into some weird single player game but running pararell with thousands of other people playing the same single player game but somehow centralised on a server.
The issue of "instances" has already been discussed above. Therefore, I will not comment on it again here. "...quests and a storyline which every player can follow." I thought that was the purpose of mmorpgs. To allow every player to experience the content that the devs have placed for the paying customers. Every argument you have seems to revolve around not letting every paying customer experience content.
Yeah it may sound like that for you because you dont understand the concept of MMORPGs. You seem to think that MMORPGs are just single player games but running pararell to thousands of others on a centralised server. This is not what they are, or rather used to be, MMORPGs are about sharing a virtual world and its resources, to be one of many thousands and interact with those thousands to coperate and compete for the resources in that world.
Maybe you are just missing something. As a mmorpg whose target audience is casual players - its a great game.
For the people who think the level cap is where the game is and race to the highest level as fast as possible - I can see its just not the sort of game they would like.
Just got off a 4hr session of T.R. I have been playing since 3 day head start.
I would write more but its 1:45am and I need to get some sleep.
Originally posted by Vato26 So you should keep on playing because the devs might add something to look forward for in the future? Sorry Im not buying that. Im not a powergamer but was bored at level 25 because I was basically doing the same things as I was at level 1 and from what I heard from powergamers that is basically what you would do at level 50, plus some meaningless PvP. I guess, by your beliefs, a game should be fully finished before it even hits the door. As in, all content finished and nothing else to look forward too. Yeah... that's realistic. People complain about the time it takes for mmorpgs to come out. They complain even more when a game keeps being pushed back. Just think how much longer it would take for a game to be released if the devs had to implement every single content, including endgame. Yeah... it would be exorbitant, and people would bash that game for taking way too long in development.
OMG! A game released in a finished state and with end game content! How can that be? Hey man, just because you have become brainwashed in thinking that you should pay devs before they have finished the game then that is your problem. However that is not the norm of developing most products on the market. As for what people would criticize (dont know why you seem to think that criticism equals bashing) the game for I cant say but I rather want a finished game instead of a prematurely released product. Nope... I haven't been "brainwashed" as you like to put it. I'm a realist. I understand that a game has no chance if they put out every bit of content at the very beginning. That would ensue years and years of additional development. Unless, of course, it's just a sandbox game. Which, they've been shown to fail as devs use the term sandbox to mean they don't have to release content on their own. As to bash vs. criticize, they vary on how a person criticizes. Here's a proper definition of bashing: " v. intr.Informal To engage in harsh, accusatory, threatening criticism." - Dictionary.com - American Heritage Dictionary. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bashing&x=0&y=0 Therefore, since I have yet to see you post something positive about the game, and your criticisms are in fact quite harsh and accusatory, I consider them bashing the game.
Also, I think you are forgetting the whole basis for the story of this game. It is based on wartime. Therefore, you are continuously fighting the enemy. Truly, what else do you do during wartime? Play cards? Chess? I guess they could add those into the game as mini-games. However, other than that, I fail to see what else could be added that wasn't war-based. I've seen arguments for player housing (umm... I thought that was what the tents were for) or raids (more war-time content). However, the main premise of war-time is killing your enemies. What wartime? I repeat from what I said before. There is no wartime, there is no way of affecting the war effort because there is no war effort. Its just some made up crap to give you an excuse to fire on endlessly spawning mobs and doing instanced, repeteable quests. This is supposed to be a MMORPG, meaning the world should be a persistant, virtual world where you as a player can interact and impact said world. That is how the ideas of MMORPGs started with UO. Again... you fail at actually viewing the game based on the story. Maybe if you played the game as the story entails (hence: Roleplay... what a shocker to do that in an mmo RPG) then you might actually enjoy this game more.
Now, I agree that TR is not finished and lacks in some content. However, it's nowhere near the doom and gloom you try to paint with your posts. If devs have access to what the playerbase wants with accordance to content, then the devs have a better chance of making content that the playerbase wants. However, with the mind-set of majority of beta testers in today's age, that proper communication of what the playerbase wants is not heard by the devs. And, what I mean by that is, I find majority of beta testers are just in it to try out the game before anyone else, then complain that the game "sucks" (duh! It is beta!) then leave and bash the game on whatever forums they post on. From what I read the beta testers didnt just say it sucks. Many of them critizised (what you called bashing) the game and said why the game would be a failure. If you open your eyes and stop thinking that everyone who doesnt like the game is out to bash the game then maybe you would realise that the game has some major issues. I am not going to repeat those here but there have been many posts regarding the control points, logos, grouping (or lack thereof) and lack of content in this game. But this has all been ignored by the devs.(Only in your eyes it has) Again... look at the proper definition of bashing that I have provided. It has major issues as majority of those beta testers probably just left after thinking that the beta "sucked". Of course the beta sucked... it's "beta". Hence, the game is unfinished and needs improvements. They forget that the reason people beta games is to help the devs improve upon the finished product. The betaers did not do that. Instead, they unjustly and harshly criticized (bashed) TR based on their beliefs about beta.
Will never happen? With that kind of attitude nothing, will ever evolve. I mean, for now I would be happy if they would just remove all these instanced quests and areas because they are against everything a persistant MMORPG stands for. I rather level by killing mobs because then it is atleast a bit believable that there is a source for these mobs that I kill and more can be produced/spawned. But telling a dying mans son that his father is dying (some stupid quest at wilderness) a million times by million different people in the same persistant world is just retarted. It's called realistic attitude. What you want will never happen. If player A does Quest A before any other player, then, by what you want, no other player would be able to experience Quest A. It would prevent other paying customers from experiencing content that they've PAID to experience. That's a bad system and promotes even more elitism. Also, it would hinder the production of other content by the devs as they would continuously have to keep coming up with new quests to replace the ones that were already "experienced" by other players. Yeah... that is not realistic. This is excactly what I mean with having a single player mindset when playing a MMORPG. This isnt a single player! You are not paying to be able to experience every single content of the game because that is not possible in a virtual world where you are supposed to share the world. Do you understand the meaning of share? It means that not everyone can have everything, play a single player game if you want that and that is why Im saying that TR and many other MMORPGs released are nothing but single player games but in an MMORPG package. Your argument is flawed. I can share the world with others just fine while still being able to experience every bit of content the game world has to offer. As I stated, instancing was done to prevent selfish players from hogging the content that is supposed to be accessible to every paying customer. The single player comment is moot as players in any game can still group with others to enjoy the instanced content together if they wish. Also, trading between other players is allowed as well, even if there is instancing. Therefore, that simple fact that grouping and trading between other players is allowed, regardless of if there is instancing or not, invalidates your argument about mmorpgs becoming single player games.
And, about your complaint of instanced content. I agree that instancing has gotten out of hand with some mmorpgs. However, I view that the problem with not instancing is far greater and stems all the way back to EQ1. Players camping mobs for hours at a time. That didn't allow other players a chance to actually kill the mob to finish a quest or find a rare item they needed. Hence, it prevented paying customers to experience content that they've PAID to experience. Again... sharing and in this case competing for resources is one of the things you do when you share an online world. Again... refer to my reply above.
They look the same but do alot of more damage and have alot more hp yet I can look alot more different than I did at player 1? That doesnt make any sense. Having not created enough models because you need to spend time to finish the game in other aspects isnt an excuse. I know that in the MMORPG industry it has become a standard to release a game before it is finished for release yet some MMORPGs manage to not do so. Such as WoW, they had ten times as many models in the game at release than TR did and so did many other MMORPGs. So, you are deciding to nit pick on the lack of models in the game. You actually want more models rather than actual improved gameplay? Because, that's basically what you just said in the section above. Company's only have so much time before they have to release their games. And, considering this amount of time, I definitely would prefer good gameplay over differences in model types (aka eye candy). Again, I guess I have to repeat myself here, just because the gameplay is lacking doesnt mean you can neglect other areas. You finish all areas and then you release the game, I am a programmer myself and I know that you cant release products with lack of common features and then expect to keep that customer. He will just go to another product with these features and I hate to break it to you but there are scores of MMORPGs out there with many fold (ten was just a number, but it was significantly more) as many models as TR and that was at release. I know because I played all those games at release and TR is the one with the least amounts of models compared to any of the following games: WoW, EQ 1 & 2, AC 1 & 2, Shadowbane, UO, SWG, AO, CoH. Sure those games had problems but atleast they had enough models which made you feel that you were progressing the game. And, yes WoW had a lot more models than TR does. However, I believe you are pulling that "ten times as many models in the game at release" somewhere other than fact. And, yes WoW had good gameplay. However, WoW failed at one aspect at launch that TR did not... server stability. TR had a smooth launch. WoW's servers would crash if you had a certain amount of people in one area. And, coming back to my original point here, I would prefer stable servers to differences in model types (aka eye candy). What do you need server stability for if the rest of the game is lacking? I'm replying to your previous 2 replies in this one reply. It's air apparent that you prefer eye candy over actual game play and stability. I prefer it the other way around, as a game can have all the models and content the devs want. However, if the servers are not stable and the gameplay is horrid, then people will not flock to that game. Server stability and good gameplay is more important than eye candy. However, you disagree with me on that point. So, to each his own.
You said and I quote: "as you just want to continue to bash the game without actually using logic or reason." By bashing I assume you mean voicing my opinions? Yes not everyone doesnt have to agree with me but look around you, look at these forums and most importantly look at the servers. Four servers which are most of the time low to medium populated, that is weak for a game released just a couple of months ago. Even Garriot has admitted that the expected numbers of customers were higher than what it currently is. I wonder why that is...
No, I mean that you continually voice your negative opinion on a game that you have admitted that you don't even play anymore. Personally, I have a large list of games that I have played and I thought sucked horribly (AC, Lineage 2, EQ1 just to name a few) yet you don't see me over on their forums voicing my hate for those games. Nope... because I have moved on.
So? That's your choice. Im on my spare time and if I want to spend my spare time expressing my opinion about the game so other people will not just get the <banable offense> point of view then that is my right. And I dont hate TR, its a casual single player game pretending to be a MMORPG, Im just expressing my, mostly negative, views on the game. (Funny... all the posts I've ever seen you post about TR have been bashing posts. Not one positive one I've seen you post.)
I leave those forums to the people who still play those games and actually want to discuss topics about the game other than having to continually defend their game from being bashed by people who haven't moved on with their hate of those games. Uh? I guess we should then censor all negative opinions people have about products that they have used. If I hadnt actually played the game then you might have a point. But I have and Im expressing my experience with it, kind of like a review. (except a tainted and harsh review)
Reasons why there's low population:
This isn't WoW, thus no millions of players at the release of the game to flood the game's servers. This game has had no official advertisements anywhere on the internet. At least I haven't seen any advertisements of this game on any site I have visited on the internet. Thus, that's a massive failure on the part of their marketing team (those guys should be fired). Going back to my beta testers issue in one of my comments above... beta people trying the game (just so they could play before anyone else) and complaining that the game "sucked" without actually helping the devs improve the game. Then, complaining about it on forums like these. It's a common issue in many mmorpgs now-a-days.
LOL! You have the reason this isnt wow as a reason for this game not being succesful. So by that logic then only WoW can be a succesful MMORPG? Common argument used by many gamers now-a-days. Many gamers and gaming managers feel a game has failed when it doesn't bring in the numbers that WoW did. Just using it to prove that this game isn't WoW when it comes to subscriber numbers.
Marketing is a way to get people to try the game, not to keep them playing the game. This game lacks so much content that even if people would try it they would get bored so quick. I got bored in less than two weeks which is the quickest in any of the MMORPGS I have played in my ten years of experience of MMORPGs. Possible exception is Horizon but that game was a joke, not a game. Marketing is a way for the company to sell exposure to the game. Maybe if you slowed down and actually savored the game rather than burning through the content (level 25 in 2 weeks) you might have actually enjoyed the game more.
Yes, all we are saying is that the game sucked. So the several houndreds of lines in my posts have been "it sucks" repeteated after each other. Maybe that is what you are seeing because you cant see past your <banable offense> you have for this game? Nope... I have admitted this game is not perfect. This game does have flaws. However, I still enjoy this game. I do not use hate as a basis for my arguments. BTW... I have remained proper and civil during these "discussions". I would prefer that you don't call me names when I have not done the same to you.
EDIT: I just want to add one last thing. You said that I should focus on single player games. That is funny because I feel the same about people that want instances, quests and a storyline which every player can follow. I mean, that is a single player experience but they want it in a MMORPG package which is contradictive to the very nature of MMORPGs since it is supposed to be a world where you share with thousands of other people and as such you cannot demand single player elements such as the same quest being done, the exact same way by thousands of people because that will kill the very spirit of living in the same world and sharing its resources.
And that is what is killing and have perverted the genre into some weird single player game but running pararell with thousands of other people playing the same single player game but somehow centralised on a server.
The issue of "instances" has already been discussed above. Therefore, I will not comment on it again here. "...quests and a storyline which every player can follow." I thought that was the purpose of mmorpgs. To allow every player to experience the content that the devs have placed for the paying customers. Every argument you have seems to revolve around not letting every paying customer experience content.
Yeah it may sound like that for you because you dont understand the concept of MMORPGs. You seem to think that MMORPGs are just single player games but running pararell to thousands of others on a centralised server. This is not what they are, or rather used to be, MMORPGs are about sharing a virtual world and its resources, to be one of many thousands and interact with those thousands to coperate and compete for the resources in that world.
Nope, I've been playing MMORPGs since UO came out. I understand the evolution of these games, be it good or bad. However, your argument about MMORPGs becoming single player games is flawed, as I pointed above. Your argument is valid, except that this is a game. Therefore, not everyone wants direct competition of resources and the hardcore attitude that you are trying to show. There are games that focus on that attitude, which players who want to experience that sort of attitude can go and flock to those games (EvE, Lineage 2, EQ1, etc...). Not all games have to be focused around that sort of attitude.
Also, I do not know what expectations you had for Tabula Rasa. You speak a lot about sandbox characteristics of games through our discussions. Also, since Richard Garriott placed his name prominently on Tabula Rasa (marketing ploy), my conclusion is I think a lot of players thought it was going to be a futuristic version of UO. Therefore, my conclusion is that you expected this to be another sandbox game. I did not, as I came into this game with an open mind and experienced it for what it was... a more casual FPSRPG with others to trade, group, and socialize with (MMO).
I agree. However I would like to see some combat droids or something you could throw out to help, like maybe a UAV turret that follows you around. Or the assualt mech that they have talked about introducing would be a blast.
This argument is not going anywhere so I will end it here. Lets just say that we have a very different view on what MMORPGs should be like.
Yamota, you are not alone in your views. I have not seen a post yet by you that I have not totally agreed with.
Alot of people have been brainwashed by WoW and it's clones into thinking how a true mmo should be structured. Developers have latched onto questing as the holy grail of content... It should not be so. If the game was structured to give the community the tools and necessity to create their own content, then we would definitely be moving in the right direction.
It's about power and control ultimately imo. PvP for power and control, not just for show...necessitated by the need for evolution and expansion of clans/guilds/races/etc. Eve has some of this, and this is why I can see why many are drawn to it. Unfortunately Eve is a niche game, though it's gaining popularity.
Do not be intimidated by the populace response as it stands at this point in time, in regards to your views. Just remember how WoW has affected the genre. I am hoping that sooner or later the masses will tire of the clones and we'll start to see some of that innovation shine through that you were mentioning.
Originally posted by Vato26 So you should keep on playing because the devs might add something to look forward for in the future? Sorry Im not buying that. Im not a powergamer but was bored at level 25 because I was basically doing the same things as I was at level 1 and from what I heard from powergamers that is basically what you would do at level 50, plus some meaningless PvP. I guess, by your beliefs, a game should be fully finished before it even hits the door. As in, all content finished and nothing else to look forward too. Yeah... that's realistic. People complain about the time it takes for mmorpgs to come out. They complain even more when a game keeps being pushed back. Just think how much longer it would take for a game to be released if the devs had to implement every single content, including endgame. Yeah... it would be exorbitant, and people would bash that game for taking way too long in development.
OMG! A game released in a finished state and with end game content! How can that be? Hey man, just because you have become brainwashed in thinking that you should pay devs before they have finished the game then that is your problem. However that is not the norm of developing most products on the market. As for what people would criticize (dont know why you seem to think that criticism equals bashing) the game for I cant say but I rather want a finished game instead of a prematurely released product.
Also, I think you are forgetting the whole basis for the story of this game. It is based on wartime. Therefore, you are continuously fighting the enemy. Truly, what else do you do during wartime? Play cards? Chess? I guess they could add those into the game as mini-games. However, other than that, I fail to see what else could be added that wasn't war-based. I've seen arguments for player housing (umm... I thought that was what the tents were for) or raids (more war-time content). However, the main premise of war-time is killing your enemies. What wartime? I repeat from what I said before. There is no wartime, there is no way of affecting the war effort because there is no war effort. Its just some made up crap to give you an excuse to fire on endlessly spawning mobs and doing instanced, repeteable quests. This is supposed to be a MMORPG, meaning the world should be a persistant, virtual world where you as a player can interact and impact said world. That is how the ideas of MMORPGs started with UO. Now, I agree that TR is not finished and lacks in some content. However, it's nowhere near the doom and gloom you try to paint with your posts. If devs have access to what the playerbase wants with accordance to content, then the devs have a better chance of making content that the playerbase wants. However, with the mind-set of majority of beta testers in today's age, that proper communication of what the playerbase wants is not heard by the devs. And, what I mean by that is, I find majority of beta testers are just in it to try out the game before anyone else, then complain that the game "sucks" (duh! It is beta!) then leave and bash the game on whatever forums they post on. From what I read the beta testers didnt just say it sucks. Many of them critizised (what you called bashing) the game and said why the game would be a failure. If you open your eyes and stop thinking that everyone who doesnt like the game is out to bash the game then maybe you would realise that the game has some major issues. I am not going to repeat those here but there have been many posts regarding the control points, logos, grouping (or lack thereof) and lack of content in this game. But this has all been ignored by the devs.
Will never happen? With that kind of attitude nothing, will ever evolve. I mean, for now I would be happy if they would just remove all these instanced quests and areas because they are against everything a persistant MMORPG stands for. I rather level by killing mobs because then it is atleast a bit believable that there is a source for these mobs that I kill and more can be produced/spawned. But telling a dying mans son that his father is dying (some stupid quest at wilderness) a million times by million different people in the same persistant world is just retarted. It's called realistic attitude. What you want will never happen. If player A does Quest A before any other player, then, by what you want, no other player would be able to experience Quest A. It would prevent other paying customers from experiencing content that they've PAID to experience. That's a bad system and promotes even more elitism. Also, it would hinder the production of other content by the devs as they would continuously have to keep coming up with new quests to replace the ones that were already "experienced" by other players. Yeah... that is not realistic. This is excactly what I mean with having a single player mindset when playing a MMORPG. This isnt a single player! You are not paying to be able to experience every single content of the game because that is not possible in a virtual world where you are supposed to share the world. Do you understand the meaning of share? It means that not everyone can have everything, play a single player game if you want that and that is why Im saying that TR and many other MMORPGs released are nothing but single player games but in an MMORPG package. And, about your complaint of instanced content. I agree that instancing has gotten out of hand with some mmorpgs. However, I view that the problem with not instancing is far greater and stems all the way back to EQ1. Players camping mobs for hours at a time. That didn't allow other players a chance to actually kill the mob to finish a quest or find a rare item they needed. Hence, it prevented paying customers to experience content that they've PAID to experience. Again... sharing and in this case competing for resources is one of the things you do when you share an online world.
They look the same but do alot of more damage and have alot more hp yet I can look alot more different than I did at player 1? That doesnt make any sense. Having not created enough models because you need to spend time to finish the game in other aspects isnt an excuse. I know that in the MMORPG industry it has become a standard to release a game before it is finished for release yet some MMORPGs manage to not do so. Such as WoW, they had ten times as many models in the game at release than TR did and so did many other MMORPGs. So, you are deciding to nit pick on the lack of models in the game. You actually want more models rather than actual improved gameplay? Because, that's basically what you just said in the section above. Company's only have so much time before they have to release their games. And, considering this amount of time, I definitely would prefer good gameplay over differences in model types (aka eye candy). Again, I guess I have to repeat myself here, just because the gameplay is lacking doesnt mean you can neglect other areas. You finish all areas and then you release the game, I am a programmer myself and I know that you cant release products with lack of common features and then expect to keep that customer. He will just go to another product with these features and I hate to break it to you but there are scores of MMORPGs out there with many fold (ten was just a number, but it was significantly more) as many models as TR and that was at release. I know because I played all those games at release and TR is the one with the least amounts of models compared to any of the following games: WoW, EQ 1 & 2, AC 1 & 2, Shadowbane, UO, SWG, AO, CoH. Sure those games had problems but atleast they had enough models which made you feel that you were progressing the game. And, yes WoW had a lot more models than TR does. However, I believe you are pulling that "ten times as many models in the game at release" somewhere other than fact. And, yes WoW had good gameplay. However, WoW failed at one aspect at launch that TR did not... server stability. TR had a smooth launch. WoW's servers would crash if you had a certain amount of people in one area. And, coming back to my original point here, I would prefer stable servers to differences in model types (aka eye candy). What do you need server stability for if the rest of the game is lacking?
You said and I quote: "as you just want to continue to bash the game without actually using logic or reason." By bashing I assume you mean voicing my opinions? Yes not everyone doesnt have to agree with me but look around you, look at these forums and most importantly look at the servers. Four servers which are most of the time low to medium populated, that is weak for a game released just a couple of months ago. Even Garriot has admitted that the expected numbers of customers were higher than what it currently is. I wonder why that is... No, I mean that you continually voice your negative opinion on a game that you have admitted that you don't even play anymore. Personally, I have a large list of games that I have played and I thought sucked horribly (AC, Lineage 2, EQ1 just to name a few) yet you don't see me over on their forums voicing my hate for those games. Nope... because I have moved on. So? That's your choice. Im on my spare time and if I want to spend my spare time expressing my opinion about the game so other people will not just get the fanboys point of view then that is my right. And I dont hate TR, its a casual single player game pretending to be a MMORPG, Im just expressing my, mostly negative, views on the game. I leave those forums to the people who still play those games and actually want to discuss topics about the game other than having to continually defend their game from being bashed by people who haven't moved on with their hate of those games. Uh? I guess we should then censor all negative opinions people have about products that they have used. If I hadnt actually played the game then you might have a point. But I have and Im expressing my experience with it, kind of like a review. Reasons why there's low population:
This isn't WoW, thus no millions of players at the release of the game to flood the game's servers. This game has had no official advertisements anywhere on the internet. At least I haven't seen any advertisements of this game on any site I have visited on the internet. Thus, that's a massive failure on the part of their marketing team (those guys should be fired). Going back to my beta testers issue in one of my comments above... beta people trying the game (just so they could play before anyone else) and complaining that the game "sucked" without actually helping the devs improve the game. Then, complaining about it on forums like these. It's a common issue in many mmorpgs now-a-days.
LOL! You have the reason this isnt wow as a reason for this game not being succesful. So by that logic then only WoW can be a succesful MMORPG? Marketing is a way to get people to try the game, not to keep them playing the game. This game lacks so much content that even if people would try it they would get bored so quick. I got bored in less than two weeks which is the quickest in any of the MMORPGS I have played in my ten years of experience of MMORPGs. Possible exception is Horizon but that game was a joke, not a game. Yes, all we are saying is that the game sucked. So the several houndreds of lines in my posts have been "it sucks" repeteated after each other. Maybe that is what you are seeing because you cant see past your fanatic fanboyism you have for this game?
EDIT: I just want to add one last thing. You said that I should focus on single player games. That is funny because I feel the same about people that want instances, quests and a storyline which every player can follow. I mean, that is a single player experience but they want it in a MMORPG package which is contradictive to the very nature of MMORPGs since it is supposed to be a world where you share with thousands of other people and as such you cannot demand single player elements such as the same quest being done, the exact same way by thousands of people because that will kill the very spirit of living in the same world and sharing its resources.
And that is what is killing and have perverted the genre into some weird single player game but running pararell with thousands of other people playing the same single player game but somehow centralised on a server.
The issue of "instances" has already been discussed above. Therefore, I will not comment on it again here. "...quests and a storyline which every player can follow." I thought that was the purpose of mmorpgs. To allow every player to experience the content that the devs have placed for the paying customers. Every argument you have seems to revolve around not letting every paying customer experience content.
Yeah it may sound like that for you because you dont understand the concept of MMORPGs. You seem to think that MMORPGs are just single player games but running pararell to thousands of others on a centralised server. This is not what they are, or rather used to be, MMORPGs are about sharing a virtual world and its resources, to be one of many thousands and interact with those thousands to coperate and compete for the resources in that world.
LOL giant block of colored text FTW.... You guys are nuts.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Originally posted by Grenfell Since I used MMORPG.com extensively when trying to figure out what game I wanted to try after DDO, I thought I would share my $0.02 with the wider MMO community about Tabula Rasa.
I find it highly unlikely anyone would play DD0 if they used mmorpg.com extensively when trying to figure out what game you wanted to play. Perhaps you didn't use mmorpg.com before you played DD0.
I know this is entirely off topic but anyone that seemingly played DD0 and apparently "liked it?" lost any validity in regards to a "Things you should know" about any game. DD0 is nothing like a MMO and is a terrible version of D&D to boot... using that as a basis of what you like you probably won't like what MMOers and D&D'ers do.
If I am wrong in reading and you actually disliked DD0 and thought it was a terrible joke played on D&Ders and MMOers alike then I appologize.
This argument is not going anywhere so I will end it here. Lets just say that we have a very different view on what MMORPGs should be like.
Yamota, you are not alone in your views. I have not seen a post yet by you that I have not totally agreed with.
Alot of people have been brainwashed by WoW and it's clones into thinking how a true mmo should be structured. Developers have latched onto questing as the holy grail of content... It should not be so. If the game was structured to give the community the tools and necessity to create their own content, then we would definitely be moving in the right direction.
It's about power and control ultimately imo. PvP for power and control, not just for show...necessitated by the need for evolution and expansion of clans/guilds/races/etc. Eve has some of this, and this is why I can see why many are drawn to it. Unfortunately Eve is a niche game, though it's gaining popularity.
Do not be intimidated by the populace response as it stands at this point in time, in regards to your views. Just remember how WoW has affected the genre. I am hoping that sooner or later the masses will tire of the clones and we'll start to see some of that innovation shine through that you were mentioning.
Anyways, kudos bro.
-Maz
Thanks man, good to hear that there are still people around who know what MMORPGs were originally about and will be again. It was an evolution of gaming that has now devolved but hopefully will make a comeback when people realise the vast possibilites of a persistant, dynamic online world where the players decide what happens in the world, not the devs.
This argument is not going anywhere so I will end it here. Lets just say that we have a very different view on what MMORPGs should be like.
Yamota, you are not alone in your views. I have not seen a post yet by you that I have not totally agreed with.
Alot of people have been brainwashed by WoW and it's clones into thinking how a true mmo should be structured. Developers have latched onto questing as the holy grail of content... It should not be so. If the game was structured to give the community the tools and necessity to create their own content, then we would definitely be moving in the right direction.
It's about power and control ultimately imo. PvP for power and control, not just for show...necessitated by the need for evolution and expansion of clans/guilds/races/etc. Eve has some of this, and this is why I can see why many are drawn to it. Unfortunately Eve is a niche game, though it's gaining popularity.
Do not be intimidated by the populace response as it stands at this point in time, in regards to your views. Just remember how WoW has affected the genre. I am hoping that sooner or later the masses will tire of the clones and we'll start to see some of that innovation shine through that you were mentioning.
Anyways, kudos bro.
-Maz
Thanks man, good to hear that there are still people around who know what MMORPGs were originally about and will be again. It was an evolution of gaming that has now devolved but hopefully will make a comeback when people realise the vast possibilites of a persistant, dynamic online world where the players decide what happens in the world, not the devs.
Are you arguing that you were disappointed because this game didn't live up to the hype of being the next UO sandbox game due to Richard Garriot's name being on the box? Or, are you trying to spread your point that you believe MMORPGs suck because they don't follow the sandbox mode? If it's the later, then I suggest you head over to the General Discussion area as you'll get more people's attention over there than here.
Sandbox games are all well and good. I am an ex SWG vet (pre cu). However, I know that having a sandbox is not an excuse for the devs to ignore content (like they did with Pre-CU SWG). Sooner or later people get bored of the same stuff to be experience (worlds, zones, rules, etc...), even if they can make up their own RP stories via sandbox mode. But, what recent history has told me is that sandbox games will not be making a comeback anytime soon. About the only sandbox game that has any true success is EvE... and, even then, it's not a totally true sandbox game based on what MazrimX is arguing for (mission running = quests). Saga of Ryzom is on the brink of closure, UO keeps barely treading along, and of course NGE SWG.
So, I hope you all receive a new sandbox game sometime that fills you with glee. However, that really has nothing to do with Tabula Rasa, as I don't ever recall anyone within TR claiming that TR was going to be a sandbox game.
I gotta say, the OP starts off strong and ends up in a pit or idiocy, for one thing "no loot" is completely wrong, getting a good weapon w/ the right damage type (fire, ice, whatever) can be a godsend... and high level people are constantly passing down drops to alts and to clan members...
No grouping? That is just retarded, the game can be solo'd well, and I'm glad for that, but the fun factor jumps by factors of ten with only one or two other ppl in the party...
Seems to me the guy could only get PUGs or was in a clan of shitheads that acted worse than some PUGs I've been in, don't blame the game, blame the player.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Since I used MMORPG.com extensively when trying to figure out what game I wanted to try after DDO, I thought I would share my $0.02 with the wider MMO community about Tabula Rasa.
I find it highly unlikely anyone would play DD0 if they used mmorpg.com extensively when trying to figure out what game you wanted to play. Perhaps you didn't use mmorpg.com before you played DD0.
I know this is entirely off topic but anyone that seemingly played DD0 and apparently "liked it?" lost any validity in regards to a "Things you should know" about any game. DD0 is nothing like a MMO and is a terrible version of D&D to boot... using that as a basis of what you like you probably won't like what MMOers and D&D'ers do.
If I am wrong in reading and you actually disliked DD0 and thought it was a terrible joke played on D&Ders and MMOers alike then I appologize.
I guess we'll just have to disagree.
DDO was ultimately a disappointment, but it was the first MMO to offer its innovative combat system. DDO is the game that truly could have been great... except that Turbine apparently doesn't know how to run MMO's after Asheron's Call 1.
And from what I recall, the previews and buzz on DDO prior to launch was very, very good. Not only that, DDO is a great game from lvl 1 through... oh, about lvl 8 or so. Really a good fun game for about a month maybe.
I gotta say, the OP starts off strong and ends up in a pit or idiocy, for one thing "no loot" is completely wrong, getting a good weapon w/ the right damage type (fire, ice, whatever) can be a godsend... and high level people are constantly passing down drops to alts and to clan members... No grouping? That is just retarded, the game can be solo'd well, and I'm glad for that, but the fun factor jumps by factors of ten with only one or two other ppl in the party... Seems to me the guy could only get PUGs or was in a clan of shitheads that acted worse than some PUGs I've been in, don't blame the game, blame the player.
Are you in a clan? How did you do grouping with your clanmates with all of the pre-requisites to get on the same page? I did say the game encourages random PUG's -- if that isn't your cup of tea, then... well, you're out of luck. Since I never said you couldn't solo, not sure how that's relevant in any way.
There's uber loot in the game? Do tell -- list one of these "uber good weapons" right here and compare it to a storebought or to even a green POS vendor trash. Show me an active trade forum somewhere. Are people forming hunting parties to go farm loot somewhere? Do tell -- what are the hot farming zones?
Logos - Instead, Logos in TR is just a "pre-req" you have to collect in order to activate pre-set skills that can't be modified. The skills themselves tell you what Logos you need. So all you end up doing is running around and collecting Logos (but really, you only need the ones your skills are tied to) so you can activate the skill once you reach the appropriate level and have invested skill points into the skill. Talk about a disappointment.
They didnt want to force people to have to learn the logos language to be able to play the game.
Control Points
This was the biggest disappointment. CP was the reason why I wanted to play TR in the first place.
Instead... CP's are just static places in the map. There is no real reward for clearing a CP -- you get access to a portal, to a hospital, and some Assault/Defend missions that involved killing mobs and collecting tokens (which you turn in for a small reward). Since you can't build anything anywhere, there is no notion of "controlled space" and "uncontrolled space".
Furthermore, the CP's get attacked randomly -- bunch of dropships materialize and drop waves of mobs off. This means, of course, that you and your five friends CAN'T plan for it. It isn't as if you can say, "Hey guys -- this Friday night, let's get together and try to clear CP Beta". It's all random.
On the early maps with multiple instances - CPs are pretty meaningless as you can just swap to a different instance where you control the point to pickup quests.
On higher levels where there is only one instance - then losing control point is more than hospital / vendor etc - you also loose access to missions and are unable to turn in completed missions.
Some of the bases have two entrances making them harder to defend. I found the CP's on palisades and plains (as far as I have got) fun and tough.
As for not being able to plan - its simple - go to a CP, on average attacks happen every 10 to 15 minutes.
As for clan control points - we will have to see what they do with those as there is talk of something like that happening for clan wars (pvp)
1. No Loot.
How is this even possible? Loot is one of TWO primary motivating forces in any RPG, nevermind an MMO. We're talking Diablo days here. For TR to have no real loot is just mindboggling. It isn't as if they replaced loot with some other motivating force (rank in the army? regular salaries?). They just plain ole eliminated one of the two most important motivating forces in a MMO.
You are inundated with items (grey/green/blue/purple) but the difference between them is negligible. Even with the recent patch that made rarer weapons do more damage, I never really felt like they made much of a difference. Case in point: when you clone, you end up with a character that has no gear at all. I take credits, go to the merchant, and buy all grey-level items. Go out and perform exactly as well as I did with purples and blues. The purple items do not let me take on mobs that I could not with greys; nor do the greys make it extremely difficult to do quests. After a while, you realize that you can just simply sell everything you loot and do fine. And since credits are not hard to come by, it ends up removing one of the key motivators of playing a MMO -- improving your equipment. Some might LIKE this; I do not, for the simple reason that it removes yet another reason to play.
Not being a loot whore - all I can say is thank god for the removal of unique /uber/leet items. No more meaningless farming for a bit of equipment thats of no use in a few levels anyways.
Purple equipment is a lot better than grey. Armor has better armor value so you stay alive longer. Weapons do more damage (not sure of the exact figure but it looked like 15 to 20%) which is then multiplied by your damage bonus from your skill.
The first thing I do when I hit a level that I can get the next equipment/armor upgrade is head to the surplus store and buy some blue/purple equipment.
2. Impossible to Team With Friends
How is this even possible? By now, every single game company in this space should know that clans are a major part of any online game. So given that... how does TR decide to make it so very hard for a clan to team up and do quests together?
What is the deal with all of the pre-reqs for major quests? It isn't even as if you can repeat quests. There is no incentive whatsoever to repeat a quest, which means that people have to sacrifice to help others, and the others knowing that don't want to be a burden.
We had people coming back to help others get through a quest, getting next to nothing out of the time spent (no xp, no loot, nothing).
I guess your friends arent such good friends if they arent happy to help out. They get XP from anything they kill, and loot from anything they kill.
I agree that in an instance it would be great to be able to share all quests to save you having to later repeat the same instance. Eg Treeback Camp.
3. Travel
After four generations of MMO's have proven that people love the ability to get around quickly, all that TR gives us is a set of waypoints.
Anarchy Online had flying vehicles six years ago. WOW -- the world's most popular game -- has mounts.
How does this game not have any travel beyond waypoints?
Yes it would be great to jump on a dropship and get ported to a hot spot. But aside from that - you have waypoints, dropships for fast travel between maps, and wormholes to travel between planets.
The maps are small so you dont have to spend 15 minutes on your flying mount to get somewhere. At most a couple of minutes to get across planets and maps to group up.
Playing with friends who have played WOW - they havent complained, in fact they say its great not having huge maps as you dont have to spend 20 minutes just getting to the spot where you can start playing.
Did DDO have teleport? I havent played it - but I cant recall any D&D based game I have played that allowed teleports - why not - its a game breaker, allows you to bypass content, introduces additonal testing/bugs. The same applies to T.R - vehicles would totally break Control Points - just hop over the walls.
Summary TR could have been a great game. .... Instead, it is a deeply flawed game lacking in some of the most basic elements of satisfying gameplay for a multiplayer game.
If you enjoy mostly solo play with the opportunity to group with random groups of people on occasion, then TR may not prove as frustrating for you as it did for me. If you have a clan, or a regular gaming group, or friends you like to run with... then you will quickly understand all of the enormous flaws in this game.
In your opinion its lacking basic elements. In my opinion it removed alot of time wasters - like farming for loot.
I have to disagree on the grouping issue the OP state.
When I play a MMORPG, I don't like to be force to do somthing, in this case, force to group with others.
The success of WoW just shows how many people in the world like to be forced to do something. I want freedom to solo or group, I dont want to force to find and wiat for 5 other people when I just wnt to play casually.
So a mmorpg that let you choose between grouping and soloing~ then it should be a good thing. Don't forget the game is really new so the devs will still update the game with new contents and gameplay, at the end, I guess the game would become heavily pvp like uo.
It's ok you like to group and raid. There are alot of games out there that let you do that, but I will not play another wow clone again. I just have my freewill
This argument is not going anywhere so I will end it here. Lets just say that we have a very different view on what MMORPGs should be like.
Yamota, you are not alone in your views. I have not seen a post yet by you that I have not totally agreed with.
Alot of people have been brainwashed by WoW and it's clones into thinking how a true mmo should be structured. Developers have latched onto questing as the holy grail of content... It should not be so. If the game was structured to give the community the tools and necessity to create their own content, then we would definitely be moving in the right direction.
It's about power and control ultimately imo. PvP for power and control, not just for show...necessitated by the need for evolution and expansion of clans/guilds/races/etc. Eve has some of this, and this is why I can see why many are drawn to it. Unfortunately Eve is a niche game, though it's gaining popularity.
Do not be intimidated by the populace response as it stands at this point in time, in regards to your views. Just remember how WoW has affected the genre. I am hoping that sooner or later the masses will tire of the clones and we'll start to see some of that innovation shine through that you were mentioning.
Anyways, kudos bro.
-Maz
Thanks man, good to hear that there are still people around who know what MMORPGs were originally about and will be again. It was an evolution of gaming that has now devolved but hopefully will make a comeback when people realise the vast possibilites of a persistant, dynamic online world where the players decide what happens in the world, not the devs.
Comments
Having an incomplete/flawed game which may or may not get fixed and having a complete game that evolves is not the same thing.
TR is flawed in so many areas that imo there is no fixing. The OP brings up most of the points but there are others as well. Like the meaningless of PvP, the tiny maps, no point in playing past level 30, repeteable missions and same looking mobs from level 1 to 50 and crafting and so on.
It's simply a flawed, incomplete MMORPG and I doubt they will do much to change many of these flaws because it would require to much developer work and as such, money.
By your complaints then, every mmorpg is flawed.
First, when is PvP truly meaningful? PvP typically is usually 1 vs 1 or group vs group combat that has no real significance to the storyline of the game. Many people who PvP couldn't care less if its meaningful or not. They usually just want to either just fight against other things than AI, or roll over people so they can flex their epeens. It's prevalent in every FFA PvP game, which is usually why a lot of them fail (shadowbane), altered (UO), or have non FFA areas (EvE). I would say that the closest to where PvP really matters is EvE, however any game truly doesn't matter as it's technically a time waster.
PvP is meaningful when you fight over something that is persistant and hold some value for you or your guild. Like a fort, leveling spot, quest giver or good NPC selling spots. That way you know what the PvP fights you are involved in actually means something for the future of your character and/or clan.
Second, when is there a point to go past lvl 30, or for that matter any level, in any mmorpg? For fun? Well, I'd classify gaining a new class and testing new abilities as fun. If your complaint is lack of content, well that will be fixed. Remember, this is a new game, and all new games have room for improvement. Of course, you are probably spoiled on WoW's "massive" content (coughs in between laughter)... so impatience will get the better of you.
The point could be many different things. Like being more useful in PvP, being more useful in NPC raids, being able to do NPC raids, to unluck new exciting content and so on. TR has none of that since the content is more or less the same from level 1 to 50, no interesting raids that I know of, no PvP except some kind of FPS style fragfest and the list goes on.
Third, repeatable missions. I don't think I've actually encountered a repeatable mission in TR yet. Of course, if you are referring to similar missions, then let me list games that have those.
That's just a handful that I could think up off the top of my head that I've played. So, by your definition, those failed as well due to similar quests/missions.
So what you are saying is that since all other, older MMORPGS did that then it is fine that we do it as well? Ever heard of innovativity? Having repeteable missions for thousands of players in the same world can be done if it is done good. But having the same NPC being escorted to the same place a million times just kills any immersity.
Fourth, what mmorpg hasn't used the same models, with minor tweaks, for mobs throughout the whole game? Should I list those as well? Seriously, this game is not even 3 months old. There's room for improvement, which means more mobs with different skins will appear.
Things arent quite so black and white. Reusing models can be done to some extent without being bad but in TR it has been done to an extreme. The mobs I was fighting in the Wilderness zone looked more or less excactly the same as the ones in the Divide and the one after that (forgot the name). And now you are talking about level 1-25 which is half the content of the game and from what I heard from others it is the same from 25-50. There are some unique, boss mobs but the cannon fodder looks the same at level 1 as they do at level 25 and from what I heard at 50.
About the only point I agree with you on is that crafting does suck in this game. But, as I said, there is still room for improvement. Yet, you don't care about that, as you just want to continue to bash the game without actually using logic or reason.
I dont see where I am not using logic and reason as I have explained to you in greater detail. But since I cancelled my account yesterday and probably wont play it anymore then it is time to move on. However since I wasted money on this game I have the right to voice my opinions as a dissapointed customer.
So keep in mind that I PAYED for this game and have every right to say that I am not happy with the experience and tell others about it.
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By your complaints then, every mmorpg is flawed.
First, when is PvP truly meaningful? PvP typically is usually 1 vs 1 or group vs group combat that has no real significance to the storyline of the game. Many people who PvP couldn't care less if its meaningful or not. They usually just want to either just fight against other things than AI, or roll over people so they can flex their epeens. It's prevalent in every FFA PvP game, which is usually why a lot of them fail (shadowbane), altered (UO), or have non FFA areas (EvE). I would say that the closest to where PvP really matters is EvE, however any game truly doesn't matter as it's technically a time waster.
PvP is meaningful when you fight over something that is persistant and hold some value for you or your guild. Like a fort, leveling spot, quest giver or good NPC selling spots. That way you know what the PvP fights you are involved in actually means something for the future of your character and/or clan.
True, but it has been proven that FFA PvP MMORPGs do not work without giving players the option to actually choose to PvP or not. Even EvE, which looks to be the most successful PvP-centric MMORPG has a non-PvP area. Therefore, PvP is not wanted nor cared for by all players.
Second, when is there a point to go past lvl 30, or for that matter any level, in any mmorpg? For fun? Well, I'd classify gaining a new class and testing new abilities as fun. If your complaint is lack of content, well that will be fixed. Remember, this is a new game, and all new games have room for improvement. Of course, you are probably spoiled on WoW's "massive" content (coughs in between laughter)... so impatience will get the better of you.
The point could be many different things. Like being more useful in PvP, being more useful in NPC raids, being able to do NPC raids, to unluck new exciting content and so on. TR has none of that since the content is more or less the same from level 1 to 50, no interesting raids that I know of, no PvP except some kind of FPS style fragfest and the list goes on.
The game is not 3 months old yet. Therefore, there is still room for improvement on content. The power gamers will just have to wait it out a bit as they continue to develop the content of the game. This is especially true as this game was touted as being a casual game.
Third, repeatable missions. I don't think I've actually encountered a repeatable mission in TR yet. Of course, if you are referring to similar missions, then let me list games that have those.
That's just a handful that I could think up off the top of my head that I've played. So, by your definition, those failed as well due to similar quests/missions.
So what you are saying is that since all other, older MMORPGS did that then it is fine that we do it as well? Ever heard of innovativity? Having repeteable missions for thousands of players in the same world can be done if it is done good. But having the same NPC being escorted to the same place a million times just kills any immersity.
I thought you originally were complaining about quests being similar from one area to the next. Now that you explain what you are meaning, I was wrong with my assumption. What you want will never happen in any mmorpg at all. Preventing content from being experienced by paying customers is a big no-no. It will never happen. If you are so incensed that TR, nor any other MMORPGs does not have this quest system that you are wanting, then I have a suggestion for you. You might want to stop looking at MMORPGs and focus on single-player games, as what you suggest will never happen. It's innovative, but it will never happen.
Fourth, what mmorpg hasn't used the same models, with minor tweaks, for mobs throughout the whole game? Should I list those as well? Seriously, this game is not even 3 months old. There's room for improvement, which means more mobs with different skins will appear.
Things arent quite so black and white. Reusing models can be done to some extent without being bad but in TR it has been done to an extreme. The mobs I was fighting in the Wilderness zone looked more or less excactly the same as the ones in the Divide and the one after that (forgot the name). And now you are talking about level 1-25 which is half the content of the game and from what I heard from others it is the same from 25-50. There are some unique, boss mobs but the cannon fodder looks the same at level 1 as they do at level 25 and from what I heard at 50.
True, things aren't always black and white. However, models are reused for a purpose, so that the devs can focus on other things that need fixing/improvements. Anyways, I think you are forgetting the story of this game. This game is set in a war setting. Just like in any war, the "cannon fodder" troops look the same. At most, they could upgrade some of the looks of the armor on higher-level Bane troops. Yet, those troops will look extremely similar to the rest.
About the only point I agree with you on is that crafting does suck in this game. But, as I said, there is still room for improvement. Yet, you don't care about that, as you just want to continue to bash the game without actually using logic or reason.
I dont see where I am not using logic and reason as I have explained to you in greater detail. But since I cancelled my account yesterday and probably wont play it anymore then it is time to move on. However since I wasted money on this game I have the right to voice my opinions as a dissapointed customer.
So keep in mind that I PAYED for this game and have every right to say that I am not happy with the experience and tell others about it.
Umm... point me in the direction of a post I had written that I stated that you "didn't have a right to post your opinion." That's right... there are none, because I haven't said that. You have the right to voice your opinion as a dissatisfied customer. However, you must accept and understand that not everyone agrees with you on your assessment of the game.
EDIT: I just want to add one last thing. You said that I should focus on single player games. That is funny because I feel the same about people that want instances, quests and a storyline which every player can follow. I mean, that is a single player experience but they want it in a MMORPG package which is contradictive to the very nature of MMORPGs since it is supposed to be a world where you share with thousands of other people and as such you cannot demand single player elements such as the same quest being done, the exact same way by thousands of people because that will kill the very spirit of living in the same world and sharing its resources.
And that is what is killing and have perverted the genre into some weird single player game but running pararell with thousands of other people playing the same single player game but somehow centralised on a server.
My gaming blog
LOL, that's just crazy...
You cannot expect people to buy into a game based on future promises that may not ever happen.
If I find a piece of crap on my floor I'm going to get rid of it instead of hoping it starts to smell better...
Unfortunately that's standard these days. I know of NO game that was released with their end game content in place. And if there is one I'd very much like it pointed out to me so I can change my perceptions of gaming companies and their financial div. thing is these games cost a lot to just get all the basics done. Most games rely on game sales and subs to pay for end game development.I'd like to point out at this time that Hero classes would be introduced into WoW 6 months AFTER release. Three years on and we have one..coming in 6 months...I smell crap...but it seems to be getting better...
After bashing the crap out of TR based on beta I decided to grab it and have a look. To be honest it's not that bad. I've seen worse go to release and based on the BS our politicans are selling us can we really get upset at what a gaming company is selling us. If one gets us cranked and not the other then something is really wrong. It's a game, LU. And the three day trial thing is working. Servers becoming more and more populated.
I for opne and enjoying mt TR experience even if their launch was so screwed up it was laughable.
EDIT: I just want to add one last thing. You said that I should focus on single player games. That is funny because I feel the same about people that want instances, quests and a storyline which every player can follow. I mean, that is a single player experience but they want it in a MMORPG package which is contradictive to the very nature of MMORPGs since it is supposed to be a world where you share with thousands of other people and as such you cannot demand single player elements such as the same quest being done, the exact same way by thousands of people because that will kill the very spirit of living in the same world and sharing its resources.
And that is what is killing and have perverted the genre into some weird single player game but running pararell with thousands of other people playing the same single player game but somehow centralised on a server.
The issue of "instances" has already been discussed above. Therefore, I will not comment on it again here. "...quests and a storyline which every player can follow." I thought that was the purpose of mmorpgs. To allow every player to experience the content that the devs have placed for the paying customers. Every argument you have seems to revolve around not letting every paying customer experience content.
God i love when people just serve people on forums...
(m not going for a review here btw, just randomness, and expect horrible sentence structure)
Im all for what vato is saying.
Ive been playing a month before release and im 31 and i really see no problems with the game, besides content but vato you already said that far better then i ever could.
Hell ive never gotten to end game level in any mmo. (would have if eq2 didnt fking have 90000 expansions)
Once i hit 30 i did feel a lack of content, but thats to be expect from a newly released game. With PAU's and command squads within 2-3 months from now i thought well now thats something to look forward to.
So i toned down my grind speed, and played more casual. (From my experience TR is one of the most Casual mmos i have ever played) I ended up chillin at CP's dropping turrets down and raving behind the shield, because if theres no reason to be 50 right now besides, BEING 50 then you might as well goof around and bother noobs. (always good fun to drop 3 turrets in imp valley haha)
The combat in this game surpasses every mmo i have played, and i actually wished more were like this.
The game just lacks the grind feel to me, unless im doing mishes, which in my past mmos, i literally never did becuase i hate going around killing boars becuase some guy is the biggest wuss in the world. Least in this game the mishes give a great amount of xp, which brings me to another point.
This game is pretty short if you just spam mishes, you could hit 50 in a month with like 3-4 full days worth of hours put in if you knew what you were doing, cource thats if all the mish bugs were non-exsistant.
Enough of my bad sentences, last words... um out of 10?..... id say 8.2 roughly right now, after that end game stuff comes out id say more round 9 something.
TR FTW
Coir: "I know of NO game that was released with their end game content in place. And if there is one I'd very much like it pointed out to me so I can change my perceptions of gaming companies and their financial div."
I think UO when it frst came out had its end game setup. UO's end game was player created because of its sandbox structure. Although now the sand has been sucked away so I wouldn't say the same thing about its end game anymore.
There are probably other sandbox games which also qualify.
EDIT: I just want to add one last thing. You said that I should focus on single player games. That is funny because I feel the same about people that want instances, quests and a storyline which every player can follow. I mean, that is a single player experience but they want it in a MMORPG package which is contradictive to the very nature of MMORPGs since it is supposed to be a world where you share with thousands of other people and as such you cannot demand single player elements such as the same quest being done, the exact same way by thousands of people because that will kill the very spirit of living in the same world and sharing its resources.
And that is what is killing and have perverted the genre into some weird single player game but running pararell with thousands of other people playing the same single player game but somehow centralised on a server.
The issue of "instances" has already been discussed above. Therefore, I will not comment on it again here. "...quests and a storyline which every player can follow." I thought that was the purpose of mmorpgs. To allow every player to experience the content that the devs have placed for the paying customers. Every argument you have seems to revolve around not letting every paying customer experience content.
Yeah it may sound like that for you because you dont understand the concept of MMORPGs. You seem to think that MMORPGs are just single player games but running pararell to thousands of others on a centralised server. This is not what they are, or rather used to be, MMORPGs are about sharing a virtual world and its resources, to be one of many thousands and interact with those thousands to coperate and compete for the resources in that world.
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Maybe you are just missing something. As a mmorpg whose target audience is casual players - its a great game.
For the people who think the level cap is where the game is and race to the highest level as fast as possible - I can see its just not the sort of game they would like.
Just got off a 4hr session of T.R. I have been playing since 3 day head start.
I would write more but its 1:45am and I need to get some sleep.
EDIT: I just want to add one last thing. You said that I should focus on single player games. That is funny because I feel the same about people that want instances, quests and a storyline which every player can follow. I mean, that is a single player experience but they want it in a MMORPG package which is contradictive to the very nature of MMORPGs since it is supposed to be a world where you share with thousands of other people and as such you cannot demand single player elements such as the same quest being done, the exact same way by thousands of people because that will kill the very spirit of living in the same world and sharing its resources.
And that is what is killing and have perverted the genre into some weird single player game but running pararell with thousands of other people playing the same single player game but somehow centralised on a server.
The issue of "instances" has already been discussed above. Therefore, I will not comment on it again here. "...quests and a storyline which every player can follow." I thought that was the purpose of mmorpgs. To allow every player to experience the content that the devs have placed for the paying customers. Every argument you have seems to revolve around not letting every paying customer experience content.
Yeah it may sound like that for you because you dont understand the concept of MMORPGs. You seem to think that MMORPGs are just single player games but running pararell to thousands of others on a centralised server. This is not what they are, or rather used to be, MMORPGs are about sharing a virtual world and its resources, to be one of many thousands and interact with those thousands to coperate and compete for the resources in that world.
Nope, I've been playing MMORPGs since UO came out. I understand the evolution of these games, be it good or bad. However, your argument about MMORPGs becoming single player games is flawed, as I pointed above. Your argument is valid, except that this is a game. Therefore, not everyone wants direct competition of resources and the hardcore attitude that you are trying to show. There are games that focus on that attitude, which players who want to experience that sort of attitude can go and flock to those games (EvE, Lineage 2, EQ1, etc...). Not all games have to be focused around that sort of attitude.
Also, I do not know what expectations you had for Tabula Rasa. You speak a lot about sandbox characteristics of games through our discussions. Also, since Richard Garriott placed his name prominently on Tabula Rasa (marketing ploy), my conclusion is I think a lot of players thought it was going to be a futuristic version of UO. Therefore, my conclusion is that you expected this to be another sandbox game. I did not, as I came into this game with an open mind and experienced it for what it was... a more casual FPSRPG with others to trade, group, and socialize with (MMO).
This argument is not going anywhere so I will end it here. Lets just say that we have a very different view on what MMORPGs should be like.
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I agree. However I would like to see some combat droids or something you could throw out to help, like maybe a UAV turret that follows you around. Or the assualt mech that they have talked about introducing would be a blast.
Yamota, you are not alone in your views. I have not seen a post yet by you that I have not totally agreed with.
Alot of people have been brainwashed by WoW and it's clones into thinking how a true mmo should be structured. Developers have latched onto questing as the holy grail of content... It should not be so. If the game was structured to give the community the tools and necessity to create their own content, then we would definitely be moving in the right direction.
It's about power and control ultimately imo. PvP for power and control, not just for show...necessitated by the need for evolution and expansion of clans/guilds/races/etc. Eve has some of this, and this is why I can see why many are drawn to it. Unfortunately Eve is a niche game, though it's gaining popularity.
Do not be intimidated by the populace response as it stands at this point in time, in regards to your views. Just remember how WoW has affected the genre. I am hoping that sooner or later the masses will tire of the clones and we'll start to see some of that innovation shine through that you were mentioning.
Anyways, kudos bro.
-Maz
EDIT: I just want to add one last thing. You said that I should focus on single player games. That is funny because I feel the same about people that want instances, quests and a storyline which every player can follow. I mean, that is a single player experience but they want it in a MMORPG package which is contradictive to the very nature of MMORPGs since it is supposed to be a world where you share with thousands of other people and as such you cannot demand single player elements such as the same quest being done, the exact same way by thousands of people because that will kill the very spirit of living in the same world and sharing its resources.
And that is what is killing and have perverted the genre into some weird single player game but running pararell with thousands of other people playing the same single player game but somehow centralised on a server.
The issue of "instances" has already been discussed above. Therefore, I will not comment on it again here. "...quests and a storyline which every player can follow." I thought that was the purpose of mmorpgs. To allow every player to experience the content that the devs have placed for the paying customers. Every argument you have seems to revolve around not letting every paying customer experience content.
Yeah it may sound like that for you because you dont understand the concept of MMORPGs. You seem to think that MMORPGs are just single player games but running pararell to thousands of others on a centralised server. This is not what they are, or rather used to be, MMORPGs are about sharing a virtual world and its resources, to be one of many thousands and interact with those thousands to coperate and compete for the resources in that world.
LOL giant block of colored text FTW.... You guys are nuts.
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
I find it highly unlikely anyone would play DD0 if they used mmorpg.com extensively when trying to figure out what game you wanted to play. Perhaps you didn't use mmorpg.com before you played DD0.
I know this is entirely off topic but anyone that seemingly played DD0 and apparently "liked it?" lost any validity in regards to a "Things you should know" about any game. DD0 is nothing like a MMO and is a terrible version of D&D to boot... using that as a basis of what you like you probably won't like what MMOers and D&D'ers do.
If I am wrong in reading and you actually disliked DD0 and thought it was a terrible joke played on D&Ders and MMOers alike then I appologize.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
Yamota, you are not alone in your views. I have not seen a post yet by you that I have not totally agreed with.
Alot of people have been brainwashed by WoW and it's clones into thinking how a true mmo should be structured. Developers have latched onto questing as the holy grail of content... It should not be so. If the game was structured to give the community the tools and necessity to create their own content, then we would definitely be moving in the right direction.
It's about power and control ultimately imo. PvP for power and control, not just for show...necessitated by the need for evolution and expansion of clans/guilds/races/etc. Eve has some of this, and this is why I can see why many are drawn to it. Unfortunately Eve is a niche game, though it's gaining popularity.
Do not be intimidated by the populace response as it stands at this point in time, in regards to your views. Just remember how WoW has affected the genre. I am hoping that sooner or later the masses will tire of the clones and we'll start to see some of that innovation shine through that you were mentioning.
Anyways, kudos bro.
-Maz
Thanks man, good to hear that there are still people around who know what MMORPGs were originally about and will be again. It was an evolution of gaming that has now devolved but hopefully will make a comeback when people realise the vast possibilites of a persistant, dynamic online world where the players decide what happens in the world, not the devs.My gaming blog
Yamota, you are not alone in your views. I have not seen a post yet by you that I have not totally agreed with.
Alot of people have been brainwashed by WoW and it's clones into thinking how a true mmo should be structured. Developers have latched onto questing as the holy grail of content... It should not be so. If the game was structured to give the community the tools and necessity to create their own content, then we would definitely be moving in the right direction.
It's about power and control ultimately imo. PvP for power and control, not just for show...necessitated by the need for evolution and expansion of clans/guilds/races/etc. Eve has some of this, and this is why I can see why many are drawn to it. Unfortunately Eve is a niche game, though it's gaining popularity.
Do not be intimidated by the populace response as it stands at this point in time, in regards to your views. Just remember how WoW has affected the genre. I am hoping that sooner or later the masses will tire of the clones and we'll start to see some of that innovation shine through that you were mentioning.
Anyways, kudos bro.
-Maz
Thanks man, good to hear that there are still people around who know what MMORPGs were originally about and will be again. It was an evolution of gaming that has now devolved but hopefully will make a comeback when people realise the vast possibilites of a persistant, dynamic online world where the players decide what happens in the world, not the devs.Are you arguing that you were disappointed because this game didn't live up to the hype of being the next UO sandbox game due to Richard Garriot's name being on the box? Or, are you trying to spread your point that you believe MMORPGs suck because they don't follow the sandbox mode? If it's the later, then I suggest you head over to the General Discussion area as you'll get more people's attention over there than here.
Sandbox games are all well and good. I am an ex SWG vet (pre cu). However, I know that having a sandbox is not an excuse for the devs to ignore content (like they did with Pre-CU SWG). Sooner or later people get bored of the same stuff to be experience (worlds, zones, rules, etc...), even if they can make up their own RP stories via sandbox mode. But, what recent history has told me is that sandbox games will not be making a comeback anytime soon. About the only sandbox game that has any true success is EvE... and, even then, it's not a totally true sandbox game based on what MazrimX is arguing for (mission running = quests). Saga of Ryzom is on the brink of closure, UO keeps barely treading along, and of course NGE SWG.
So, I hope you all receive a new sandbox game sometime that fills you with glee. However, that really has nothing to do with Tabula Rasa, as I don't ever recall anyone within TR claiming that TR was going to be a sandbox game.
I agree with the OP 100%, only thing I would add to the Ugly List is the crafting system, its pretty much useless....
I gotta say, the OP starts off strong and ends up in a pit or idiocy, for one thing "no loot" is completely wrong, getting a good weapon w/ the right damage type (fire, ice, whatever) can be a godsend... and high level people are constantly passing down drops to alts and to clan members...
No grouping? That is just retarded, the game can be solo'd well, and I'm glad for that, but the fun factor jumps by factors of ten with only one or two other ppl in the party...
Seems to me the guy could only get PUGs or was in a clan of shitheads that acted worse than some PUGs I've been in, don't blame the game, blame the player.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
I find it highly unlikely anyone would play DD0 if they used mmorpg.com extensively when trying to figure out what game you wanted to play. Perhaps you didn't use mmorpg.com before you played DD0.
I know this is entirely off topic but anyone that seemingly played DD0 and apparently "liked it?" lost any validity in regards to a "Things you should know" about any game. DD0 is nothing like a MMO and is a terrible version of D&D to boot... using that as a basis of what you like you probably won't like what MMOers and D&D'ers do.
If I am wrong in reading and you actually disliked DD0 and thought it was a terrible joke played on D&Ders and MMOers alike then I appologize.
I guess we'll just have to disagree.
DDO was ultimately a disappointment, but it was the first MMO to offer its innovative combat system. DDO is the game that truly could have been great... except that Turbine apparently doesn't know how to run MMO's after Asheron's Call 1.
And from what I recall, the previews and buzz on DDO prior to launch was very, very good. Not only that, DDO is a great game from lvl 1 through... oh, about lvl 8 or so. Really a good fun game for about a month maybe.
/gren
Are you in a clan? How did you do grouping with your clanmates with all of the pre-requisites to get on the same page? I did say the game encourages random PUG's -- if that isn't your cup of tea, then... well, you're out of luck. Since I never said you couldn't solo, not sure how that's relevant in any way.
There's uber loot in the game? Do tell -- list one of these "uber good weapons" right here and compare it to a storebought or to even a green POS vendor trash. Show me an active trade forum somewhere. Are people forming hunting parties to go farm loot somewhere? Do tell -- what are the hot farming zones?
/gren
<modedit>
They didnt want to force people to have to learn the logos language to be able to play the game.
On the early maps with multiple instances - CPs are pretty meaningless as you can just swap to a different instance where you control the point to pickup quests.
On higher levels where there is only one instance - then losing control point is more than hospital / vendor etc - you also loose access to missions and are unable to turn in completed missions.
Some of the bases have two entrances making them harder to defend. I found the CP's on palisades and plains (as far as I have got) fun and tough.
As for not being able to plan - its simple - go to a CP, on average attacks happen every 10 to 15 minutes.
As for clan control points - we will have to see what they do with those as there is talk of something like that happening for clan wars (pvp)
Not being a loot whore - all I can say is thank god for the removal of unique /uber/leet items. No more meaningless farming for a bit of equipment thats of no use in a few levels anyways.
Purple equipment is a lot better than grey. Armor has better armor value so you stay alive longer. Weapons do more damage (not sure of the exact figure but it looked like 15 to 20%) which is then multiplied by your damage bonus from your skill.
The first thing I do when I hit a level that I can get the next equipment/armor upgrade is head to the surplus store and buy some blue/purple equipment.
I guess your friends arent such good friends if they arent happy to help out. They get XP from anything they kill, and loot from anything they kill.
I agree that in an instance it would be great to be able to share all quests to save you having to later repeat the same instance. Eg Treeback Camp.
Yes it would be great to jump on a dropship and get ported to a hot spot. But aside from that - you have waypoints, dropships for fast travel between maps, and wormholes to travel between planets.
The maps are small so you dont have to spend 15 minutes on your flying mount to get somewhere. At most a couple of minutes to get across planets and maps to group up.
Playing with friends who have played WOW - they havent complained, in fact they say its great not having huge maps as you dont have to spend 20 minutes just getting to the spot where you can start playing.
Did DDO have teleport? I havent played it - but I cant recall any D&D based game I have played that allowed teleports - why not - its a game breaker, allows you to bypass content, introduces additonal testing/bugs. The same applies to T.R - vehicles would totally break Control Points - just hop over the walls.
In your opinion its lacking basic elements. In my opinion it removed alot of time wasters - like farming for loot.
I have to disagree on the grouping issue the OP state.
When I play a MMORPG, I don't like to be force to do somthing, in this case, force to group with others.
The success of WoW just shows how many people in the world like to be forced to do something. I want freedom to solo or group, I dont want to force to find and wiat for 5 other people when I just wnt to play casually.
So a mmorpg that let you choose between grouping and soloing~ then it should be a good thing. Don't forget the game is really new so the devs will still update the game with new contents and gameplay, at the end, I guess the game would become heavily pvp like uo.
It's ok you like to group and raid. There are alot of games out there that let you do that, but I will not play another wow clone again. I just have my freewill
You don't need mounts or ships in an MMO, and they sure as hell wouldn't have saved TR from their bad item library and control point concept.
_______________________________
PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
Yamota, you are not alone in your views. I have not seen a post yet by you that I have not totally agreed with.
Alot of people have been brainwashed by WoW and it's clones into thinking how a true mmo should be structured. Developers have latched onto questing as the holy grail of content... It should not be so. If the game was structured to give the community the tools and necessity to create their own content, then we would definitely be moving in the right direction.
It's about power and control ultimately imo. PvP for power and control, not just for show...necessitated by the need for evolution and expansion of clans/guilds/races/etc. Eve has some of this, and this is why I can see why many are drawn to it. Unfortunately Eve is a niche game, though it's gaining popularity.
Do not be intimidated by the populace response as it stands at this point in time, in regards to your views. Just remember how WoW has affected the genre. I am hoping that sooner or later the masses will tire of the clones and we'll start to see some of that innovation shine through that you were mentioning.
Anyways, kudos bro.
-Maz
Thanks man, good to hear that there are still people around who know what MMORPGs were originally about and will be again. It was an evolution of gaming that has now devolved but hopefully will make a comeback when people realise the vast possibilites of a persistant, dynamic online world where the players decide what happens in the world, not the devs.*qft