Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Vanguard Wins a 2007 Award
U-Turn
Member UncommonPosts: 164
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
U-Turn
Member UncommonPosts: 164
Comments
Here's the scary thing. As long as I've been tracking MMORPG's (since about 1999-2000), it appears to me that the designs are mostly going downhill. Like aging, what you see in the mirror is the best you're ever going to look again.
I hope something can be done to take MMORPG design out of its downward spiral.
Didn't someone once say that any publicity is good publicity? Somehow, I doubt gamespy's award will result in additional subscriptions...
Off topic, I didn't know the Vanguard employees were fired in a parking lot. How sad.
Teclinsen a former dev from Vanguard spills the beans about some things that went on at Sigil. He posted it here http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/31593-vg-producers-letter-49.html
You know, as much as I hate having to carefully craft (AKA, lie through my teeth) an answer to "What was Vanguard's biggest failing?" in job interviews, I realized after reading that rather disappointing article how proud I am of it.
Know why? Because I can honestly say with 100% validity: I'm a big reason for Vanguard's failure. Not Brad Mcquaid - not Microsoft. Me. And Guess what? I'm really kind of proud of it.
Brad Mcquaid didn't do shit. (News Flash?) He's had an opiate addiction for years now, which only got progressively worse as the project failed. His cumulative face time with sigil designers in the most crucial final years of development? Approx: 15 minutes. And some of the time was spent begging for legitimately acquired narcotics (Or in times of desperation, jacking them from people's desk).
The lead designers didn't do shit. (News Flash?) Sigil fired all of their golden-boy, EQ-Genius designers (Save One) who this board once speculated simply "left." It wasn't even secretive. It all happened on the same day.
Sony didn't do shit. The extent of sony's help was 2 designers who ended up writing some diplomacy quests in Tanvu and some adventuring quests in Tursh. I think there was an artist that came in 2 days a week or something for about a month also. Thom Terrasas (sp?) is the only Sony employee that ever directly affected the direction of that game.
The only part Sony really played in Vanguard's destiny was to let its life unnaturally and undeserving-ly continue. And apparently, it's simply because they were naive enough to think this project was worth their cash. Hah! Even the staff at sigil was left wondering why the hell Sony would buy us. Dozens of lunch hours were spent trying to figure out why.
"What profitable web of intrigue and mystery was big'ol Smed spinning with this crazy move(????)," we'd often cry
It was pretty shocking (and just lame) to hear John Smedly actually get angry and complain to people after the layoff's that he, "didn't know what he was buying." He even expressed anger at Jeff and Brad for bamboozlin' him. Poor guy. Maybe next time tough-guy Smed decides to spend several million dollars on something he'll expend some brain power figuring out what it is first.
Dave Gilbertson DID do some shit. (News Flash!) But this guy? Man, so much stuff I could say about this guy. He was truly unbelievable. Even when you thought his insanely unprofessional antics couldn't get any more outrageous, he'd go and do something like tell everyone they're getting a raise (to keep crunching) and then one by one call people into his office who WERE actually getting raises (but would never actually get them), how much they were going to get (VERY, soon). Unfortunately he would move through desk rows one by one and simply skip over the unlucky ones. It took a whole 5 minutes for the office to see through his brilliantly laid out scheme. He used the same plan for the lay-offs too. Classy huh?
He's literally never played a video game in his life, yet when Brad died off and Dave inherited the position of Vanguard Jesus, he decided he must be the final call on every design decision. I guess if you ride dirt bikes with a gamer god, his genius just wears off on you.
Fortunately, sometime this would result in getting played like a fiddle by whoever happened to be lovingly pulling the strings that day. But more often than not, this just meant people had to go around him to get something in, only without the help of (Place whatever department here) that was necessary for a game feature to actually turn out right. Imagine for a second people at Sigil actually knew how to do something right? (Believe it or not, we did on occasion) this guy would become the bottleneck to prevent that from happening.
If there was a ceremony for the Gamespy award, Dave would be accepting. For the sake of all our future video game consumer habits, let's hope this guy goes back to the only thing he's qualified to do, whatever that might be.
Anyway, enough of my blabbering. The most shocking reality that I don't think anyone really ever understood is that Vanguard was made (exclusively the design staff, I should say) COMPLETELY by amateurs. People who had been hired less than a week with 0 prior experience were tasked with designing entire newbie areas that shipped. People who had never produced a game in their life were asked to fix a 40 million dollar fuck up. People with no experience were asked to fix the item, diplomacy, ability, content, quest and pretty much every system in the game.
The game that exists now was designed in a single year by people with 0 experience. If that sounds too vague think of it like this: about 1 year from release we had 0 quests in the DB because the tool didn't exist yet. When I decided to split the team there was over 30,000 quest object entries. Yeah, explains a lot doesn't it?
What a huge let down indeed.
Oddly enough, the whole situation was probably a bigger let down to the designers than the consumers. I accepted a position thinking I was going to work with a bunch of experts - Masters of their craft - and really learn the ropes of game design. Instead, my fellow design associates and I were unwittingly tasked with trying to fix a failed video game that had literally been canceled twice before any of us were even hired. So in retrospect, despite everything, I guess I'm still pretty proud of vanguard. Every team member should be proud in spite of a truly pitiful and pathetic waste.
FUncom putting the FU in fun since 1993.
Lol gotta love Vanguard haha. That article explains alot about what VG is now indeed
That post from the Dev is amazing. Lots of VG drama. Great insight into why VG sucks so bad. Even the Dev says they should have let VG die.
Thanks for the article Perramas
I'm curious what the vanbois think of it?
i think i can be classed as a vanboy and for the parts that i read i have to agree. although i love the game and think that the present game does not deserve the hate it recieves i also have to admit that it's still a long way to go to apeal to the masses and ,...yes it was the biggest disapointement. i admit i didnt read most of it as i already know what the problems are..
could you tell if it is worth reading the whole article being a vanboy? and i dont mean that sarcasticaly. i mean is it just another rant or would i find it worth my time and interesting?
It's worth reading I'd say, but it won't change the way you experience the game.
It's kind of if I'm going to a restaurant and eats a 5 dish dinner thinking that it's their famous chef that makes it - if I find out afterwards that it was a new employee with no experience that made the dinner would I change my opinion on how it tasted?
It's worth reading I'd say, but it won't change the way you experience the game.
It's kind of if I'm going to a restaurant and eats a 5 dish dinner thinking that it's their famous chef that makes it - if I find out afterwards that it was a new employee with no experience that made the dinner would I change my opinion on how it tasted?
More like a cook who hates the 5 dish dinner he gave you, admits you never should've gotten it, but the drug using head chef said put it out even though all 5 of the dishes are undercooked and underprepared in some way..and forget the garnish. A cook that furthermore admits it was made in a kitchen full of completely dismentaled and only partially put back together appliances...and all the other cooks chopped and whisked with their bare hands instead of using knives and such.We'll see if it is true or not.
Until then I find it quite surprising that not anyone of those disgruntled people that was fired at the parking lot never mentioned this before. Not even the one at the F13 interview.
It's really a rewriting off the old F13 interview just some hard accusations added for the taste of it.
So it's just these "new" trolls like Morguar getting some new fresh food for their flamebaits.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
It's worth reading I'd say, but it won't change the way you experience the game.
It's kind of if I'm going to a restaurant and eats a 5 dish dinner thinking that it's their famous chef that makes it - if I find out afterwards that it was a new employee with no experience that made the dinner would I change my opinion on how it tasted?
More like a cook who hates the 5 dish dinner he gave you, admits you never should've gotten it, but the drug using head chef said put it out even though all 5 of the dishes are undercooked and underprepared in some way..and forget the garnish. A cook that furthermore admits it was made in a kitchen full of completely dismentaled and only partially put back together appliances...and all the other cooks chopped and whisked with their bare hands instead of using knives and such.
Yes, that might be a more accurate description, but still: would finding this out after I've eaten the meal change my opinion on how it tasted?Gotta do what you can to keep them from stuffing their pockets with pens and post-it pads.
Ok just read through the whole article and yes pretty much the same...i agree with most of it, other than the boring content bit! i have played most mmo's and am big enough to admit that the general content is pretty much bog standard and the same as any other mmo, eq, eq2 wow, lotro etc. (i am a 7 year eq vet btw ) so to me i dont understand how one game can be great content and another boring when theres no difference other than name. yes there is a lot of inbetween land in a huge world, but lets face it once you have travelled and unlocked the riftways it makes no difference. and although touted as a huge world it really isnt that big at all. play eq and run across the karanas and then youll see how big and empty a zone can be. end of the article...spot on. no one can say at this time if VG will recover or if it's too late.
But ill play while its still here
till of course something better appears, which at the moment there is nothing else any good to play.
Pretty sad post.
Yeah the people in Sigil were let go in the parking lot and it was pretty harsh. Brad wasn't even there to tell them. You can only feel sad thinking how it musta felt working your ass off to make something then to have it fail and everyone caned in the parking lot...
Can only hope that SOE can bring out the potential in VG cause no matter what an ex-employee posts about his trama in the team there is still a lot of potential in VG and by and large it does work. I still believe it is far from a lost cause.
---
Ethion
It's worth reading I'd say, but it won't change the way you experience the game.
It's kind of if I'm going to a restaurant and eats a 5 dish dinner thinking that it's their famous chef that makes it - if I find out afterwards that it was a new employee with no experience that made the dinner would I change my opinion on how it tasted?
More like a cook who hates the 5 dish dinner he gave you, admits you never should've gotten it, but the drug using head chef said put it out even though all 5 of the dishes are undercooked and underprepared in some way..and forget the garnish. A cook that furthermore admits it was made in a kitchen full of completely dismentaled and only partially put back together appliances...and all the other cooks chopped and whisked with their bare hands instead of using knives and such.
Yes, that might be a more accurate description, but still: would finding this out after I've eaten the meal change my opinion on how it tasted?Umm, who enjoys VG? The meal tasted like crap, because someone with no experience used rat meat instead of beef. Used $2 ghetto juice instead of a $200 bottle of wine. The kick in the nuts is the restaurant still charged you for a $500 meal, and told you to "stfu, and go to McD's if you can't hang".
I love the amusing forums. Everyone needs to face the facts that MMO's in general, ALL OF THEM, have a long way to go. Unless 2008 shows any promise I think the best use of time is to not play any. I have played Guild Wars, DDO, Shadowbane, LOTR and they all are bad games. Right now it seems if you played one you have played them all. Go here, get this and give it to this person for a couple of cooper pieces. Everyone says VG has grouping and populations, I think they all do. And they do at certain times. What will 2008 bring? Who knows probably another big MMO disappointment. I know one thing that I have leared this past year. Do not be the first to play a new MMO. Wait and read the forums and then decide if the game is worth it. Also if you wait long enough there will always be a free trail after they work bugs out or add new content.
So, in conclusion, I will cpontinue to waste my 15 dollars per month on VG until something better comes out, but based on 2007 that may be a while. And at last have fun in the game you play. That is what it is all about anyway. Having fun.
More awards for VG:
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?LOADFEATURE=1645&bhcp=1
To me that article sounds like one frustrated fired employe. Maybe some of it is true, get over it, life is a b*tch (and then ..... one).
If they released a book about sigil and the vanuguard saga id snap it up in an instant xD
it would be like that 'death of wcw' book written by dave meltzer
The problem isnt that you guys like Vanguard. You dont give a crap about bad reviews or bad awards or anything. Because... well you like the game.
The problem is new subscribers who read those reviews and awards. They are the ones buying something else. Which leads to no new blood ingame.
Sad isn't it?
well am not a vanbois but i think the artical is a pile of dog poop and the people that believe it are the flies buzzing around it
vanguard is teh sex!
And i just started to play vanguard and i think you will be sad to hear that there is people everywhere i go in this game anyone stating otherwise must be about as smart as that reviewer