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WAR --> Things NOT to do
mr_sunshine
Member Posts: 3
Having been both a DAoC player and a WoW player, and in reference to the post regarding the best feature of the game that Mythic has incorporated, I wanted to compile a list of things that WAR should _not_ do.
1) Player housing: This mistake singlehandedly turned DAoC capital cities into ghostowns. People normally congregated in capital cities at release, but going through the capital cities was literally a haunting experience once they introduced player housing. This is bad, it achieves no purpose, and the resources can definitely be invested in other elements of the game.
2) Zero collision detection. During a large RvR fight, isn't it funny how players can simply move through each other, and attack the rear? This diminishes the role of tanks and melee. By introducing collision detection, ranged and nuking classes will have to work harder, and play realistically. They will actually require melee support to help them against the mobs or foe.
3) Crowd control. I don't want to repeat what has already been posted; needless to say this is the single most frustrating aspect of the game for melee players. AoE CC is even worse; how many times in DAoC were fights between large groups of players resolved simply by who got the AoE mezz off first?
4) "Stock" mobs. Mobs should have the capacity to use special abilities and equip special weapons. Having banal, prosaic mobs as was usually the case for DAoC or WoW makes the game a lot less interesting than it should be. I don't mind death, just as long as I am enjoying the game!
5) Super grind. What this does is increase the amount of grind to such a degree that people relinquish RvR and instead stick to PvE. There should definitely be grind, and it should be probably be more intense than WoW (DAoC levels are acceptable). WoW is a joke as far as levelling goes.
6) Boring economy. The vast majority of discussion on the boards deals with combat issues and abilities (which is understandable). But please, ensure that the economy system is well developed and very interesting. I thought that part of the reason that both DAoC and WoW were so fun was because of an advanced economy.
7) Useless builds. A large amount of diverse builds should be possible, without the implementation of "cookie-cutter" or poorly differentiated classes. Examine a game such as Dungeon Siege, in which skill development was dependent solely on the usage of a particular skill. Further in Dungeon Siege, characters were totipotent from the onset. I don't expect this level of generalization to be achieved, but I believe a good compromise can be reached.
Mr. Sunshine
Comments
Duh, what are you talking about, War don't have any of that?
They have:
1. No player housing (yet)
2. Collision detection
3. No crowd controll to talk about
5. Mobs use specials
6. Every mmorpg has some grind in it
7. Daoc had a advance economy? hehe, hrmm i'm sure War will have a "fun" economy
8. You'll have a hard time to make a useless build in War
There, some short point's
i really dont think player housing is a bad thing just how DAoC use the housing merchants made going tot eh capital city use less when you can get what you want faster and easier then running around to a whole bunch of
if War adds player housing i want them to add instanced zones that do not effect the world at all...no merchants at all..just a house to sit and place trophies of mobs and a vault or a guild vault and tables and such (so use DAoC's system excluding merchants)
or only let only guilds perchase housing or make it so expensive that a guild will be needed to make that much money
everything else i agree with expect that i think a CC could be used but only in PVE or have it be a lot less time unlike DAoC with a 30 second one)
another thing is make sure it is a player ran economy (they are always more fun and a lot more interesting for crafters) although i guess most games now are heading in that direction
Have you even read anything about the game???????????????????
Yes, but honestly, we all know that the game is just entering into its closed beta. There could be significant changes (as was already done).
I'm sure many of these detractions have never been implemented, nor will they be incorporated into the release. However, it is interesting to examine the most popular MMORPG currently (WoW), and the previous MMORPG that Mythic has created (DAoC), and learn from potential mistakes.
Thank you.
Mr_Sunshine, I agree with your post on a many a thing eventhough you are looking at the future development of things to come.
I whole hardly agree with you on the FTM templates, every template should be viable in PvE and PvP (RvR) if this game's focus is for the die hard RvR/PvP fanatic every possible template for every career will show that.
Player housing, I agree with you on this if you have Joe Smoe or Suzy Q in their house decorating for 9 hours a day, whose on the front? Again I agree with you on this and seen how detrimental player housing was to tumble weed cities.
Collision detection, this is probably my biggest peeve right here, in WOW "a poor excuse dynamic for PVP" host this where we have every Rogue fu master abusively using it jumping over your head a billion times, running through you as you cast ( sorry ass class used as an example). Without enemy collision detection or the ability to use some strategic sense to defeat your foe in the game, this is just another PvE hosted game with a PvP/RvR tag.
Stock mobs, I think that is something I lked very much about Guild Wars, pretty much the mobs you were fighting could use their special ability on you which made you think how you actually approached or attacked them (couldn't just throw on resist gear and fireball them to death again as in WOW).
The grind, I don't mind as long as long as the option to RvR or PvE my way up the ladder exists throughout the game.
Economy, again this is where I am kinda split due to the spamming Asian gold farmer and American marketeers. I think it should be something everyone could get into but have a special person master "what person wants to sit in one spot crafting for 8 hours in War other than farmers/sellers?".
You bring up some good points with this discussion and it's different "tired of the same damn polls", good read.
Guild housing is the only thing you wrote that they might incorporate.
Good points, Mr Sunshine.
Player housing absolutely ruined a social aspect of Asheron's Call with the same effect. The towns became ghost towns after they incorporated player housing. Before that everyone congregated in the towns or made one of the world points of interest their home.
2) There are two things to consider with collision detection. First, in large battles such as what they had in DAOC it can actually be a bit of a resource hog. When you are running around alone it is not a big deal but when it has to perform colliision detection for 200 models every cycle it starts to really eat into CPU time. However with newer systems they have the horsepower to handle this better.
The second issue is griefing. Players doing things like standing in doorways so other players cannot get past can really ruin a game experience. However, with the way WAR is implementing it (only during PvP battles and only against opponents) I don't see this as a problem.
3) I think CC should be in the game for both PvP and PvE but it should not be nearly as effective as it was in DAOC. CC should be things like short stuns, entangles and fears. Casters should be able to get someone pounding them to run away in fear (if appropriate to the caster type) but that fear should only last a couple seconds - long enough for the caster to run himself or get some protection. I also think the tanks should be able to taunt enemies to them and away from those they are trying to protect - again if only for a couple of seconds.
4) Mobs in WoW did use special abilities. In fact, I've never played a game where mobs didn't have some special abilities. In WoW, for example, there are mobs that fear, mobs that stun and mobs that disarm. Problem is most abilities, much like player abilities, result in improved efficiency in combat so are invisible to the player when they are used. It is difficult to notice when a warrior beserks.
5) I hate grind and no game should have it. LOTRO proved that grind is not necessary. I never once found the need to just kill something to get a bit of experience. Instead, nearly everything I killed was related to a quest I was working on. Most experience should come through quest completion (or PvP) in my opinion. Leave the grinding to the gold farmers.
6) I agree with you here but, unfortunately, there is no one answer to this. I found the economy in WoW to be boring and too easily manipulated. The best economy I've seen is in Eve. This is likely the hardest thing to pull off well in an MMO.
7) Where there are options in your build there will always be cookie cutter builds. People will always find the most efficient build and that is what players will gravitate towards so that they too can stay competative. I hear what you are saying but don't think it is possible.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I just hope that they make WAR a good game and NOT like how WoW plays. I'm so tired of the exact same thing being done over and over in that game with nothing else to do but PVE or PVP in the same exact fashion. But as far as all the things that the OP suggested, it could all be done as long as they did it right and made it so it doesn't impact the game negatively.
~ Player Housing -- I agree there is no real need for housing at the outset. Perhaps in the first or second expansion playing housing could be added.
~ Collision Detection -- I agree. It makes the game feel more real and opens up tactical opportunities. CoH/CoV uses full collision detection without an impairment in performance. In WAR it will also work well.
~ Crowd Control -- Completely agree. CC "stops" combat -- that is the opposite of fighting. He-who-mezzes-first should NOT decide the outcome of a battle.
~ Stock Mobs -- No real opinion on this since I will not be playing WAR (primarily) for PvE reasons. Far as I am concerned, mobs are for XP and are walking loot-bags Fighting other players will offer the real experience of combat.
~ Grind -- You are going to grind something. If it is mostly quest-grinding, I would find this preferable to long hours of mob grinding. Actually, the only acceptable grind for me, and what I am looking forward to is Grinding My Enemies Into the Dust!!! That's a grind I can appreciate.
~ Economy -- My particular favorite type of economy is based on making and selling USEFUL consumable items or materials -- some of which would be rares.
~ Builds -- Agree. Every build should be viable. FOTM templates will always exist but players should be able to choose from several efficient variations on a class -- neither gimping nor uberizing (uberizing?
) their characters.
~~~
Luckily, Mythic already has some of these features implemented -- like collision detection and only minor CC -- and for the rest we will have to wait and see.
I would imagine that the January Newsletter will contain GOOD news and solid information as they proceed through this last phase of beta.
This last phase will also give them a feel for the completion of development from which they will be able to set a release date.
I still hope for April-May-June of '08, but ... it's better if they don't rush it out and have a smooth release like DAoC had.
(Actually, DAoC had one of the smoothest releases I ever experienced. I expected, based on other game releases, that it would be full of bugs, disconnects, glitches, etc., and was pleasantly surprised when I was able to create my account and log on and PLAY the very first day of retail release with no problems at all.)
~ Ancient Membership ~
It has clearly been stated, that they want to make the town living. so, i dont think they gonna make Player housing, though they didnt say they never would make that. If they gonna do that, they will do it in some clever, smart way, so the towns will stay alive. No clue how, but i hope they have learnd from other games, incl DAoC
Er I have no idea what the hell mythic did with the player housings in daoc but I can assure you that they're completely awesome in eq2.
The towns never died because of player housings btw
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Tell me , how do you guys claim to know that "theres no need for player housing" etc when you haven't even played the game 1 minute, really? If you've ever experienced a fine player housing system you'd embrace the idea of it.
Well lets see how they build up the game , then you can go from there
List of SOE lies
1. I agree on the non-instanced one like swg, daoc , etc.. but I LOVED the one in ffxi . just a small instance room which you can put trophies and such. And the cities where always full of players , since to use the AH , hear shouts ( PT being formed , stuff being sold.) you needed to be outside of it. It helped with the lag a lot also.
2. PvP without CD is not fun . but i hope they implement it well. it could suck big time if this was buggy.
3. CC is also retarded. I don't mind short duration , non-spammable and single target cc do. For multiple classes it's something they absolutely need. since everyone run around at the same speed , it would not be very fun for melee being kited to death , uncatchable players running away every time they lose a fight.
4. I don't care either way for that one , since i won't pve much ( i'll try the PQ's but thats it.) But it would be much more fun for thoses that will go pve for xping.
5.I don't mind a fairly long grind ( much more since you can pvp for levels) but too much of a grind to endgame kinda make it hard to get alts up there.
6. 1st : put a damn auction house . I just can't stand thoses game where you need to be idle and sell your wares on your caracter. that just suck. Hopefully the crafting is good and the fact that pvp kills should have drops like pve ( so i've heard) will make it happen.
7. yeah ,I hate the cookie cutter stuff. Every specs should be viable. If not, why even put them in to confuse players?.
I have faith in Mythic .I'm sure they are making a kick-ass game.
http://revolutionwar.guildlaunch.com/
Housing is always fun, there should be at least an instanced house like in EQ2, for orc head trophies
On the topic of "useless builds", I think that players are biased by "FOTM" builds and thus are under the illusion that other builds are gimped or useless.
In reality, in every game I have played so long as you try to make a good build that works for you, you are fine. It is the forum sheep following one guy who says something like "17/41/3 or die!" and the people who believe this garbage that are the problem.
Look at your options, decide what you want to do, do it, and see if it works. If it does not, figure out what went wrong and try again. If you want to follow the crowd and believe one build is the only way to go, that is your prerogative. In reality, the difference in effectiveness of builds in games where it is merely a matter of customization, like WoW, is under 10%.
Also, of course if you randomly assign points in builds you might end up with something crappy, but that is how it should be. I hope people are not asking that every single build possibility should be as good as every other, because that is stupid. There are inherently going to be some dumb builds, and that is that.
Usually the better builds tend to focus in one area instead of many, so you can be the best at something instead of mediocre in everything.
Anyway, I do agree that every career mastery/tactic/morale ability and such should be useful, in and of itself, and that all should be balanced. However, I do not think it is a developer's job to ensure that all 5469543 possibilities are great.
Lag.
If I see any chars skidding across the screen like they used to in Daoc ( even up to the point of being able to dragcast in windowed mode) I'll be out of there again in a hearbeat.
I think the OP has great points. I certainly don't see them making those mistakes so far. The only niggle I have is player housing (or guild). It simply requires it to be instanced in the cities in the middle of the economic bustle. That, and avoiding placing merchants or crafting stations in your house. I mean, c'mon, crafting stations in your house? LOL I don't know any smiths that would have a forge in their house and a separate location for their place of selling stuff publicly.
Player housing HAS to come into being (along with guild housing). I mean, you have to have a place to put all your trophies as a PP said earlier!: "Check out at that orc skull on the wall over there! That !@!$#@ held the bridge to the second keep for ten minutes before our team finally took him down! We ended up losing the scenario because he chewed up so much time..."
Anyways, to put such merchants and crafting stations in instanced housing show a severe lack of actually projecting the economic and social impact of it. Something that anyone creating an MMO should be very astute at. MMO's are all about social and economic interaction.