Perfectly acceptable to make changes to a product you created and own the property rights too, as it is perfectly acceptable for you to disagree with those changes and stop paying. Its no different than your electricity provider increasing the cost of your electricity, they are allowed to do it, and you might hate them for it, but there is nothing stopping you changing providers You voted how you felt with the cancellation of your subscription, anymore than that just sounds like whining.
And my GOD do we have enough whining in MMORPG's
Arguably in defense of PRE-CU people I cannot begin to FATHOM why SOE do not just introduce a PRE-CU server and dedicate a small team to that server for development etc, gauge the amount of people wishing to pay and play on that server, increase the amount of servers and the development team if it becomes popular. It may be a business model nightmare but at least you would be racking in even more cash. That I have to say is the only part of this entire debacle I cannot understand
There's a very good financial reason why there will never be an "official" pre-anything server, firstly to have 2 versions of one game with completely different game dynamics would mean there would have to be 2 seperate versions of the SWG client, that means 2 seperate clients would have to be on the market which, would double the amount of copies shipped and double the all over cost of the game, it would be incredibly confusing for new comers to the experience of SWG and the cost of having 2 developer teams working on 2 versions constantly would be staggering and eventually one of the versions would become reduntant resulting in its inevitable closure , which would bring us right back full circle to having a very peeved off community
Its no different than your electricity provider increasing the cost of your electricity, they are allowed to do it, and you might hate them for it, but there is nothing stopping you changing providers
I think I would have perhaps said... the corner store raising prices. While the one just down the street kept them low.. You would have the ability to just buy else where.
In the US you don't choose who provides electricity to you. They are also a "regulated" service.. which means the local regulatory boards can take a great deal of action against them.
So perhaps in other countries what you stated may be true. At least in the US I just didn't follow that statement ...
Now if online services were "regulated" in the same way as Power, Cable.. phone.. ahahahaha then you wouldn't have had to hear smedley say "no rollback".
There's a very good financial reason why there will never be an "official" pre-anything server, firstly to have 2 versions of one game with completely different game dynamics would mean there would have to be 2 seperate versions of the SWG client, that means 2 seperate clients would have to be on the market which, would double the amount of copies shipped and double the all over cost of the game, it would be incredibly confusing for new comers to the experience of SWG and the cost of having 2 developer teams working on 2 versions constantly would be staggering and eventually one of the versions would become reduntant resulting in its inevitable closure , which would bring us right back full circle to having a very peeved off community
Well, to be frank there really isn't that many new comers.
I think the return of veterens would greatly outnumber those people. I think at this point we can all agree on that.
Because this is basically true for all online games, there is a percental higher possibility for an online game hosted by SOE and especially for SWG.
However having said that the version of SWG that is out now... like it or not... upset or not..... vengeful or not...... has been around longer than any other version of the game. 2+ yrs. So for 2 + yrs SOE has not devalued the items of there player base. It seems they may have learned from something from the beating you guys have given them.
And to the people playing the game VG they may have added a ton of value for them b/c without SOE buying VG the game probabllly would not be around for anyone to enjoy.
Just some food for thought.
"Great minds discuss ideas, lesser minds discuss things, and shitheads get personal."
I'm not really sure why SOE hasn't done a classic version of the SWG to be made avalible to station pass customers only. It would get a nice influx of cash as many I know would pony up for station pass to play the PRE -CU version..
And being it station pass exclusive they would be a Direct2Drive so to speak download of the PRE-CU client. Which elimantes the need to ship "DISK" to the store. With the extra money paid for station pass to off set any start up and devlopment cost.
The only locial conclusion one could make is if they did that then there would be no need to update the NGE as the majority of users would be on classic...ala UO and it would be the NGE servers shuting down leaving a game that hasnt had devlopor TLC for 3 years. Which would cause some mega issues as they are back to where they started 3 years ago.
It is this seniro that SOE fears and rightly so, no other senerio seems to fit not even the LA holds the rights or the mysterios lost code of pre cu. This make SWG classic econmically unviable as they paid for 3 years of dev time just end back up at Apr 05.
Making the conuting NGE experimant the only econicalyl viable path, As pre CU, or CU ship sailed back in early 05 and nov of 05. that was are best chance to get back no 3 years after the fact.
Because this is basically true for all online games, there is a percental higher possibility for an online game hosted by SOE and especially for SWG.
However having said that the version of SWG that is out now... like it or not... upset or not..... vengeful or not...... has been around longer than any other version of the game. 2+ yrs. So for 2 + yrs SOE has not devalued the items of there player base. It seems they may have learned from something from the beating you guys have given them.
And to the people playing the game VG they may have added a ton of value for them b/c without SOE buying VG the game probabllly would not be around for anyone to enjoy.
Just some food for thought.
It's not all about SWG though.
Remember SOE is about to embark on it's new buisness model of RMT's. I think it's vital for consumers to make a stand before something much worse happens in The Agency.
Because this is basically true for all online games, there is a percental higher possibility for an online game hosted by SOE and especially for SWG.
However having said that the version of SWG that is out now... like it or not... upset or not..... vengeful or not...... has been around longer than any other version of the game. 2+ yrs. So for 2 + yrs SOE has not devalued the items of there player base. It seems they may have learned from something from the beating you guys have given them.
And to the people playing the game VG they may have added a ton of value for them b/c without SOE buying VG the game probabllly would not be around for anyone to enjoy.
Just some food for thought.
It's not all about SWG though.
Remember SOE is about to embark on it's new buisness model of RMT's. I think it's vital for consumers to make a stand before something much worse happens in The Agency.
Come on now you know there is nothing anyone can do to stop one of Smeds ideas no matter how bad they may be.
There's a very good financial reason why there will never be an "official" pre-anything server, firstly to have 2 versions of one game with completely different game dynamics would mean there would have to be 2 seperate versions of the SWG client, that means 2 seperate clients would have to be on the market which, would double the amount of copies shipped and double the all over cost of the game, it would be incredibly confusing for new comers to the experience of SWG and the cost of having 2 developer teams working on 2 versions constantly would be staggering and eventually one of the versions would become reduntant resulting in its inevitable closure , which would bring us right back full circle to having a very peeved off community
Well, to be frank there really isn't that many new comers.
I think the return of veterens would greatly outnumber those people. I think at this point we can all agree on that.
They have <30K subs (paying) left and falling. A few classic servers would bring at least that back, maybe more. Neither the failing NGE nor classic servers are going to keep this thing going for too much longer, but I think classic would keep it going far longer and with more $$$ than they otherwise are going to get.
I always have thought that the real reason they don't do classic is ego. Soon as they did this the NGE servers won't have 200 people left on them. It's NOT LucasArts preventing them from doing classic, they'd be stupid themselves to not allow it if SOE asked.
At this point I hope they don't do classic. It would be a cynical move to siphon bucks out of the shafted vets one more time.
I dunno what your talking about I am very new to SWG and I am really enjoying it, don't seem to be any different problems to the multitude of MMORPG's I have played I think your crying for the sake of it, not defending the game but there have been far worse scenarios in the world of gaming, anyone remember DAIKATANA Just get over the fact a game you loved, was changed and you don't like what it changed to, and move on. Stop coming back attempting to rekindle what you will never retrieve, then throwing your rattle out of the pram on the forums. People complained when battlegrounds were introduced to WoW and everyone lost the fun PvP in southshore. Everyone went mental in DAoC when they brought out Trials of Atlantis and no one wanted the grind Everyone went mental when UO brought in Trammel etc Wish these SWG whiners would stop acting like they were the first group of MMORPG gamers hard done by, its been done, its old hat, get over it and move over to another MMORPG instead of dragging down the existing/new players to NGE SWG. Its not your game, it never belonged to you, it was up to the developers to shift the game how they pleased, they made a mistake stop persecuting them for it, and let them attempt to salvage what they can, instead of vindicatively sabotaging what they produced. Its not a BAD game its just not the game you enjoyed
Exactly, you do not know what they are talking about. You said it in the first sentence you are very new to SWG. If you had been there and built this amazing world and devoted 2+ years of your life to the game and have it all ripped away in a 24 hour period you would get it. Glad you are having fun but all SWG vets who loved and were devoted to this game indeed have a lot of reasons to complain. You know no other mmorpg has ever screwed it's loyal players the way SOE did with SWG. The first day I logged in the NGE my two years of developing my Master creature handler, master Bio-engineer and master Jedi (one full year of work to achieve) were simply removed and in the case of my jedi made useless. What UO, Doac, and any other game that have made changes did, are no where near what happened to the players in SWG. You simply have been fed crap and only crap so you really do not know any better. Believe me the vets have all the reasons and rights to complain about the current state of SWG and what happened to them. I have gone back 3 times since NGE with as much of an open mind as possible and you know what? It is a steaming pile!
I have been playing since Launch and I have to agree with Lonewolf.
i agree with lonewolf too. i will always say this, you dont know mmo lovers until youve met players from ffxi and swg pre nge. The people who play those two games are some of the most dedicated players i have ever met in my life. i can remember newsday doing an article on how upset people were when swg changed. They actually interviewed a woman who was a professor in texas and she had 15 accounts!!! They had other interviews abotu how people went into depression, tons of examples like this. SWG-cu had its issues, and in my opinion no version of SWG has trully given a real star wars experience, but good and bad video game experiences. One thing is for sure though, SWG pre nge had some of teh most dedicated and loving communities ever. Thats why so many were and are still hurt about what was done to that game, and ultimately done to them.
OP picked a dead server. Yea my pre-cu guy is on Vacyln but I chose to start over again on Bria, no Transfer since the game was completely changed and for the better I may add.
There's a very good financial reason why there will never be an "official" pre-anything server, firstly to have 2 versions of one game with completely different game dynamics would mean there would have to be 2 seperate versions of the SWG client, that means 2 seperate clients would have to be on the market which, would double the amount of copies shipped and double the all over cost of the game, it would be incredibly confusing for new comers to the experience of SWG and the cost of having 2 developer teams working on 2 versions constantly would be staggering and eventually one of the versions would become reduntant resulting in its inevitable closure , which would bring us right back full circle to having a very peeved off community
Well, to be frank there really isn't that many new comers.
I think the return of veterens would greatly outnumber those people. I think at this point we can all agree on that.
They have <30K subs (paying) left and falling. A few classic servers would bring at least that back, maybe more. Neither the failing NGE nor classic servers are going to keep this thing going for too much longer, but I think classic would keep it going far longer and with more $$$ than they otherwise are going to get.
I always have thought that the real reason they don't do classic is ego. Soon as they did this the NGE servers won't have 200 people left on them. It's NOT LucasArts preventing them from doing classic, they'd be stupid themselves to not allow it if SOE asked.
At this point I hope they don't do classic. It would be a cynical move to siphon bucks out of the shafted vets one more time.
Classic Servers would be a short term fix and that's it.
What would happen is something along the lines of this. You would get 'some' Players coming back, not 250k. My guess would be 'maybe' about 40k at the max. See alot of people have moved on from SWG, and one big thing you have to remember is, many people where happy with the CU. Really the CU didn't have big numbers leaving the game, most already left in 2004 for WoW... Still lets just say the 'Classic' Servers end up being Pre-CU.
First things first, RoTW and ToOW won't work in that system. There go's some content that people do like and people did pay for, I wouldn't put it past posts showing up of "Get Kash and Mustafar working on Classic!!! Cuz I did pay for them too!!!" SOE could make a Video of a Puppet telling them 'why' just getting both of those to work in a Pre-CU system in easy to understand terms, and people just wouldn't get it.
Two, you've just come out with a Server running a system that hasn't been touched in almost 3 years. Even if people claim "We don't care!!! We'll pay and play it just like it is!" That would last about a week, maybe two before the posts of "OMG THIS IS BROKE FIX IT!!!" start...
Mark my words if it did happen, it wouldn't be a lovely thing after a month.
I see the old argument about the value of in-game items is popping up again. I'll give you my (legal) view on it.
It is an established legal fact that intellectual property does not have to be material (think of music, novels, movies, images, newspaper articles, ideas / patents). It may not have physical existence in the world, but it remains something that has protection under the law, and it has (provable) value. The fact such ideas are developed with external tools (word processor, graphics editor, music composition program etc) does not mean the maker of the tool - which in fact is no more than an aid to the imagination - can ever be considered the owner of the product made with that tool
When we move on to SWG, we get a situation where pre-NGE, people were encouraged to use their fantasy to create THEIR experience, as explicitly stated on the box the game was sold in. This went a bit farther then other games, because not only the virtual characters we played were unique, so were the items generated (loot) and created (crafted goods). Using the in-game tools, we made items of which the quality depended on our imagination, resources and skill. Accounts on which certain of these goods were gathered, and toons developed a certain way, were valued at and sold for hundreds of dollars. So their WAS demonstrably real value tied in to the virtual world of SWG.
I would argue that the NGE did, in fact, destroy OUR intellectual property. The time and creativity invested in our characters and items was destroyed by turning those into something completely different without consultation or consent.
This whole area is as grey as can be, unfortunately. Lawgivers are usually 10 years or more behind the time when it comes to computer technology and problems therewith. In Korea, I think SOE could have been prosecuted for grand theft (they have laws concerning virtual items, which include in-game ones). In other countries, the situation is still being looked at. There has already been at least one case where people were arrested for the theft of in-game items in Europe.
Leaving that aside, there is also the moral issue. Even if SOE had the legal right to change things this drastically (which, as said, is up to debate, EULA or no EULA), I think they did not have the moral right to destroy something that people had invested 2 1/2 years in, just from a stated desire to attract a new audience. Their arrogant conceit we would just lie down and take it is what to this day makes people fume when they hear the words 'SWG' or 'SOE'.
If you enjoy the game NGE has become, by all means play it. But don't expect us to cheer. I personally have 5 boxes inviting me to 'follow your own path with a skill-bases advancement system, which accommodates your style of play' and to 'build everything [ ] and live in a world entirely of your own creation'. When I look at SWG, I see LEVELS, forced linear levelling and a mainly loot based economy. Those are not game CHANGES, that is an entirely different game.
I see the old argument about the value of in-game items is popping up again. I'll give you my (legal) view on it. It is an established legal fact that intellectual property does not have to be material (think of music, novels, movies, images, newspaper articles, ideas / patents). It may not have physical existence in the world, but it remains something that has protection under the law, and it has (provable) value. The fact such ideas are developed with external tools (word processor, graphics editor, music composition program etc) does not mean the maker of the tool - which in fact is no more than an aid to the imagination - can ever be considered the owner of the product made with that tool When we move on to SWG, we get a situation where pre-NGE, people were encouraged to use their fantasy to create THEIR experience, as explicitly stated on the box the game was sold in. This went a bit farther then other games, because not only the virtual characters we played were unique, so were the items generated (loot) and created (crafted goods). Using the in-game tools, we made items of which the quality depended on our imagination, resources and skill. Accounts on which certain of these goods were gathered, and toons developed a certain way, were valued at and sold for hundreds of dollars. So their WAS demonstrably real value tied in to the virtual world of SWG. I would argue that the NGE did, in fact, destroy OUR intellectual property. The time and creativity invested in our characters and items was destroyed by turning those into something completely different without consultation or consent. This whole area is as grey as can be, unfortunately. Lawgivers are usually 10 years or more behind the time when it comes to computer technology and problems therewith. In Korea, I think SOE could have been prosecuted for grand theft (they have laws concerning virtual items, which include in-game ones). In other countries, the situation is still being looked at. There has already been at least one case where people were arrested for the theft of in-game items in Europe. Leaving that aside, there is also the moral issue. Even if SOE had the legal right to change things this drastically (which, as said, is up to debate, EULA or no EULA), I think they did not have the moral right to destroy something that people had invested 2 1/2 years in, just from a stated desire to attract a new audience. Their arrogant conceit we would just lie down and take it is what to this day makes people fume when they hear the words 'SWG' or 'SOE'. If you enjoy the game NGE has become, by all means play it. But don't expect us to cheer. I personally have 5 boxes inviting me to 'follow your own path with a skill-bases advancement system, which accommodates your style of play' and to 'build everything [ ] and live in a world entirely of your own creation'. When I look at SWG, I see LEVELS, forced linear levelling and a mainly loot based economy. Those are not game CHANGES, that is an entirely different game. Linna
Originally posted by azgarth Try playing on Lowca and let us know how it was, ok? You wont find anyone to party with, and wont be abble to buy anything. There are few crafters and prices go sky high. Then come and explain the logic of still having this dead servers, no free transfers, and how great it is for the new players (it's about all it has, less then 100 on that server though, I recon).
I'm from Lowca too, the server was litterly jumping before the NGE with lots and lots of pvp and strong economy- now it's just a shitpile with the same 5-6 people that loiters Restus 24/7 (like no-life Opilio/Sanguis). New players won't see the damage done, that's what SOE hopes for, but the population has shifted to about 3-4 servers while the 21 other servers struggles a little.
I see the old argument about the value of in-game items is popping up again. I'll give you my (legal) view on it. It is an established legal fact that intellectual property does not have to be material (think of music, novels, movies, images, newspaper articles, ideas / patents). It may not have physical existence in the world, but it remains something that has protection under the law, and it has (provable) value. The fact such ideas are developed with external tools (word processor, graphics editor, music composition program etc) does not mean the maker of the tool - which in fact is no more than an aid to the imagination - can ever be considered the owner of the product made with that tool When we move on to SWG, we get a situation where pre-NGE, people were encouraged to use their fantasy to create THEIR experience, as explicitly stated on the box the game was sold in. This went a bit farther then other games, because not only the virtual characters we played were unique, so were the items generated (loot) and created (crafted goods). Using the in-game tools, we made items of which the quality depended on our imagination, resources and skill. Accounts on which certain of these goods were gathered, and toons developed a certain way, were valued at and sold for hundreds of dollars. So their WAS demonstrably real value tied in to the virtual world of SWG. I would argue that the NGE did, in fact, destroy OUR intellectual property. The time and creativity invested in our characters and items was destroyed by turning those into something completely different without consultation or consent. This whole area is as grey as can be, unfortunately. Lawgivers are usually 10 years or more behind the time when it comes to computer technology and problems therewith. In Korea, I think SOE could have been prosecuted for grand theft (they have laws concerning virtual items, which include in-game ones). In other countries, the situation is still being looked at. There has already been at least one case where people were arrested for the theft of in-game items in Europe. Leaving that aside, there is also the moral issue. Even if SOE had the legal right to change things this drastically (which, as said, is up to debate, EULA or no EULA), I think they did not have the moral right to destroy something that people had invested 2 1/2 years in, just from a stated desire to attract a new audience. Their arrogant conceit we would just lie down and take it is what to this day makes people fume when they hear the words 'SWG' or 'SOE'. If you enjoy the game NGE has become, by all means play it. But don't expect us to cheer. I personally have 5 boxes inviting me to 'follow your own path with a skill-bases advancement system, which accommodates your style of play' and to 'build everything [ ] and live in a world entirely of your own creation'. When I look at SWG, I see LEVELS, forced linear levelling and a mainly loot based economy. Those are not game CHANGES, that is an entirely different game. Linna
You have a series of valid points here but, in the end, unfortuntely, it comes down to "Gameplay expirience may change during online play". The whole ToOW-thing, probably does have a legally valid argument behind it, but thats as far as i see it going, and they refunded that money as a result. I was interested in the idea of this intellectual property not actually being theirs to own, but im afraid i'd have to dismiss it upon the grounds that if every MMO brought out was to accept that they did not own these sorts of things and were legally responsible if something should happen to the game as a whole, compromising people's time invested, you'd see a lot less MMOs, the cost would be just too large.
Try playing on Lowca and let us know how it was, ok?
You wont find anyone to party with, and wont be abble to buy anything. There are few crafters and prices go sky high. Then come and explain the logic of still having this dead servers, no free transfers, and how great it is for the new players (it's about all it has, less then 100 on that server though, I recon).
I'm from Lowca too, the server was litterly jumping before the NGE with lots and lots of pvp and strong economy- now it's just a shitpile with the same 5-6 people that loiters Restus 24/7 (like no-life Opilio/Sanguis). New players won't see the damage done, that's what SOE hopes for, but the population has shifted to about 3-4 servers while the 21 other servers struggles a little.
The drama on Lowca was something else.
There were those that you just loved to hate, and others you just hated to love. : )
I see the old argument about the value of in-game items is popping up again. I'll give you my (legal) view on it. It is an established legal fact that intellectual property does not have to be material (think of music, novels, movies, images, newspaper articles, ideas / patents). It may not have physical existence in the world, but it remains something that has protection under the law, and it has (provable) value. The fact such ideas are developed with external tools (word processor, graphics editor, music composition program etc) does not mean the maker of the tool - which in fact is no more than an aid to the imagination - can ever be considered the owner of the product made with that tool When we move on to SWG, we get a situation where pre-NGE, people were encouraged to use their fantasy to create THEIR experience, as explicitly stated on the box the game was sold in. This went a bit farther then other games, because not only the virtual characters we played were unique, so were the items generated (loot) and created (crafted goods). Using the in-game tools, we made items of which the quality depended on our imagination, resources and skill. Accounts on which certain of these goods were gathered, and toons developed a certain way, were valued at and sold for hundreds of dollars. So their WAS demonstrably real value tied in to the virtual world of SWG. I would argue that the NGE did, in fact, destroy OUR intellectual property. The time and creativity invested in our characters and items was destroyed by turning those into something completely different without consultation or consent. This whole area is as grey as can be, unfortunately. Lawgivers are usually 10 years or more behind the time when it comes to computer technology and problems therewith. In Korea, I think SOE could have been prosecuted for grand theft (they have laws concerning virtual items, which include in-game ones). In other countries, the situation is still being looked at. There has already been at least one case where people were arrested for the theft of in-game items in Europe. Leaving that aside, there is also the moral issue. Even if SOE had the legal right to change things this drastically (which, as said, is up to debate, EULA or no EULA), I think they did not have the moral right to destroy something that people had invested 2 1/2 years in, just from a stated desire to attract a new audience. Their arrogant conceit we would just lie down and take it is what to this day makes people fume when they hear the words 'SWG' or 'SOE'. If you enjoy the game NGE has become, by all means play it. But don't expect us to cheer. I personally have 5 boxes inviting me to 'follow your own path with a skill-bases advancement system, which accommodates your style of play' and to 'build everything [ ] and live in a world entirely of your own creation'. When I look at SWG, I see LEVELS, forced linear levelling and a mainly loot based economy. Those are not game CHANGES, that is an entirely different game. Linna
You have a series of valid points here but, in the end, unfortuntely, it comes down to "Gameplay expirience may change during online play".
We have to repeat this countless times as a warning to everyone.
WARNING "SOE may change Gameplay expirience during online play"
The whole ToOW-thing, probably does have a legally valid argument behind it, but thats as far as i see it going, and they refunded that money as a result. I was interested in the idea of this intellectual property not actually being theirs to own, but im afraid i'd have to dismiss it upon the grounds that if every MMO brought out was to accept that they did not own these sorts of things and were legally responsible if something should happen to the game as a whole, compromising people's time invested, you'd see a lot less MMOs, the cost would be just too large.
Great idea, less companys like SOE who clearly compromising people's time invested.
You have a series of valid points here but, in the end, unfortuntely, it comes down to "Gameplay expirience may change during online play".
Pardon me, but isn't that warning explicitly tied to the ESRB rating, as a disclaimer that the rating that is given to the game by the ESRB is based on, bascially, a snapshot of the game due to its nature of being an ongoing concern? So don't blame the ESRB if it's in a different "ratings state" down the road?
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
The "gameplay may change" issue is what disturbs me the most. It gives far too much power to the corporation, and strips the consumer of any protection.
There must be some kind of middle ground in this. Developers must be allowed to make changes to the game as needed. But the consumer must, at the very least, be assured of some basic gameplay features.
I think this middle ground is to the mutual benefit of both consumers and corporations. The question now is how do we get these regulations, and who defines what is acceptable to change?
I see the old argument about the value of in-game items is popping up again. I'll give you my (legal) view on it. It is an established legal fact that intellectual property does not have to be material (think of music, novels, movies, images, newspaper articles, ideas / patents). It may not have physical existence in the world, but it remains something that has protection under the law, and it has (provable) value. The fact such ideas are developed with external tools (word processor, graphics editor, music composition program etc) does not mean the maker of the tool - which in fact is no more than an aid to the imagination - can ever be considered the owner of the product made with that tool When we move on to SWG, we get a situation where pre-NGE, people were encouraged to use their fantasy to create THEIR experience, as explicitly stated on the box the game was sold in. This went a bit farther then other games, because not only the virtual characters we played were unique, so were the items generated (loot) and created (crafted goods). Using the in-game tools, we made items of which the quality depended on our imagination, resources and skill. Accounts on which certain of these goods were gathered, and toons developed a certain way, were valued at and sold for hundreds of dollars. So their WAS demonstrably real value tied in to the virtual world of SWG. I would argue that the NGE did, in fact, destroy OUR intellectual property. The time and creativity invested in our characters and items was destroyed by turning those into something completely different without consultation or consent. This whole area is as grey as can be, unfortunately. Lawgivers are usually 10 years or more behind the time when it comes to computer technology and problems therewith. In Korea, I think SOE could have been prosecuted for grand theft (they have laws concerning virtual items, which include in-game ones). In other countries, the situation is still being looked at. There has already been at least one case where people were arrested for the theft of in-game items in Europe. Leaving that aside, there is also the moral issue. Even if SOE had the legal right to change things this drastically (which, as said, is up to debate, EULA or no EULA), I think they did not have the moral right to destroy something that people had invested 2 1/2 years in, just from a stated desire to attract a new audience. Their arrogant conceit we would just lie down and take it is what to this day makes people fume when they hear the words 'SWG' or 'SOE'. If you enjoy the game NGE has become, by all means play it. But don't expect us to cheer. I personally have 5 boxes inviting me to 'follow your own path with a skill-bases advancement system, which accommodates your style of play' and to 'build everything [ ] and live in a world entirely of your own creation'. When I look at SWG, I see LEVELS, forced linear levelling and a mainly loot based economy. Those are not game CHANGES, that is an entirely different game. Linna
You have a series of valid points here but, in the end, unfortuntely, it comes down to "Gameplay expirience may change during online play".
We have to repeat this countless times as a warning to everyone.
WARNING "SOE may change Gameplay expirience during online play"
The whole ToOW-thing, probably does have a legally valid argument behind it, but thats as far as i see it going, and they refunded that money as a result. I was interested in the idea of this intellectual property not actually being theirs to own, but im afraid i'd have to dismiss it upon the grounds that if every MMO brought out was to accept that they did not own these sorts of things and were legally responsible if something should happen to the game as a whole, compromising people's time invested, you'd see a lot less MMOs, the cost would be just too large.
Great idea, less companys like SOE who clearly compromising people's time invested.
Ok, if you were in charge of such things, im sure much of the industry would be destroyed, but you know best.
Any game in which anything was change (for the better or not), a single person could claim this change ruined their time invested and sue the company, good idea.
And i believe the Gameplay may change thing is also tied to the game itself.
The "Gameplay expirience may change during online play" statement is posted on every MMO box released, and I expect things like tweaking or revamping items, defense/offense mechanics, balancing weapons/armor or classes. But nobody in their right mind would completely mutate the core system, twice at that, like SOE did, the comparison of the original SWG is like a completely different game to the NGE, the NGE should have been a seperate game to begin with. I wasn't particularily happy when they changed locked-target and skill-based mix and match profession builds into a really badly done pseudo-FPS level-based restricted classes and making reward items better than crafted items.
Originally posted by saay You have a series of valid points here but, in the end, unfortuntely, it comes down to "Gameplay expirience may change during online play". We have to repeat this countless times as a warning to everyone. WARNING "SOE may change Gameplay expirience during online play" The whole ToOW-thing, probably does have a legally valid argument behind it, but thats as far as i see it going, and they refunded that money as a result. I was interested in the idea of this intellectual property not actually being theirs to own, but im afraid i'd have to dismiss it upon the grounds that if every MMO brought out was to accept that they did not own these sorts of things and were legally responsible if something should happen to the game as a whole, compromising people's time invested, you'd see a lot less MMOs, the cost would be just too large. Great idea, less companys like SOE who clearly compromising people's time invested.
Ok, if you were in charge of such things, im sure much of the industry would be destroyed, but you know best.
Any game in which anything was change (for the better or not), a single person could claim this change ruined their time invested and sue the company, good idea.
And i believe the Gameplay may change thing is also tied to the game itself.
That would be a big step forward, harm someone's game experience and you be sure of law-suit. Like it is in many aspects of life. In hope company's fear to pay compensation they more "polite" to their customer and i am sure Smedley would have interpret some polls in an "other" way and had don't commented the result like "they vote with feets".
Me would be now on a world trip from the money i would receive in an out-of-court settlement
Serious such a progress serves customer's best interests. The fear of "nothing would be developed" then is brute propaganda. Sure many things would be considered a second time, but don't get things and changes developed in other branches because customer have more rights ? I see here some chances for companies to advertise with "Competitors change your skills/items/game environment every now and then, we offer you a guaranteed experience for the next years". Sure such a world has to be very polished from scratch what can't be counted as one of SOE's strength.
Comments
I thought there was documentation that they had already admitted they messed up?
The "apology", although trumpeted by many as vindication, was rather vague and misleading IMO.
Firstly, it was not directed to the community but rather a reporter for some gaming mag or site. It was spin pure and simply.
Secondly, it didn't actually apologize for the NGE but rather the implementation of the NGE. It was about the process, not the actual concept.
I maybe wrong about these points so I'm sure others may be able to clarify.
There's a very good financial reason why there will never be an "official" pre-anything server, firstly to have 2 versions of one game with completely different game dynamics would mean there would have to be 2 seperate versions of the SWG client, that means 2 seperate clients would have to be on the market which, would double the amount of copies shipped and double the all over cost of the game, it would be incredibly confusing for new comers to the experience of SWG and the cost of having 2 developer teams working on 2 versions constantly would be staggering and eventually one of the versions would become reduntant resulting in its inevitable closure , which would bring us right back full circle to having a very peeved off community
In the US you don't choose who provides electricity to you. They are also a "regulated" service.. which means the local regulatory boards can take a great deal of action against them.
So perhaps in other countries what you stated may be true. At least in the US I just didn't follow that statement ...
Now if online services were "regulated" in the same way as Power, Cable.. phone.. ahahahaha then you wouldn't have had to hear smedley say "no rollback".
Well, to be frank there really isn't that many new comers.
I think the return of veterens would greatly outnumber those people. I think at this point we can all agree on that.
Because this is basically true for all online games, there is a percental higher possibility for an online game hosted by SOE and especially for SWG.
However having said that the version of SWG that is out now... like it or not... upset or not..... vengeful or not...... has been around longer than any other version of the game. 2+ yrs. So for 2 + yrs SOE has not devalued the items of there player base. It seems they may have learned from something from the beating you guys have given them.
And to the people playing the game VG they may have added a ton of value for them b/c without SOE buying VG the game probabllly would not be around for anyone to enjoy.
Just some food for thought.
"Great minds discuss ideas, lesser minds discuss things, and shitheads get personal."
I'm not really sure why SOE hasn't done a classic version of the SWG to be made avalible to station pass customers only. It would get a nice influx of cash as many I know would pony up for station pass to play the PRE -CU version..
And being it station pass exclusive they would be a Direct2Drive so to speak download of the PRE-CU client. Which elimantes the need to ship "DISK" to the store. With the extra money paid for station pass to off set any start up and devlopment cost.
The only locial conclusion one could make is if they did that then there would be no need to update the NGE as the majority of users would be on classic...ala UO and it would be the NGE servers shuting down leaving a game that hasnt had devlopor TLC for 3 years. Which would cause some mega issues as they are back to where they started 3 years ago.
It is this seniro that SOE fears and rightly so, no other senerio seems to fit not even the LA holds the rights or the mysterios lost code of pre cu. This make SWG classic econmically unviable as they paid for 3 years of dev time just end back up at Apr 05.
Making the conuting NGE experimant the only econicalyl viable path, As pre CU, or CU ship sailed back in early 05 and nov of 05. that was are best chance to get back no 3 years after the fact.
Because this is basically true for all online games, there is a percental higher possibility for an online game hosted by SOE and especially for SWG.
However having said that the version of SWG that is out now... like it or not... upset or not..... vengeful or not...... has been around longer than any other version of the game. 2+ yrs. So for 2 + yrs SOE has not devalued the items of there player base. It seems they may have learned from something from the beating you guys have given them.
And to the people playing the game VG they may have added a ton of value for them b/c without SOE buying VG the game probabllly would not be around for anyone to enjoy.
Just some food for thought.
It's not all about SWG though.
Remember SOE is about to embark on it's new buisness model of RMT's. I think it's vital for consumers to make a stand before something much worse happens in The Agency.
Because this is basically true for all online games, there is a percental higher possibility for an online game hosted by SOE and especially for SWG.
However having said that the version of SWG that is out now... like it or not... upset or not..... vengeful or not...... has been around longer than any other version of the game. 2+ yrs. So for 2 + yrs SOE has not devalued the items of there player base. It seems they may have learned from something from the beating you guys have given them.
And to the people playing the game VG they may have added a ton of value for them b/c without SOE buying VG the game probabllly would not be around for anyone to enjoy.
Just some food for thought.
It's not all about SWG though.
Remember SOE is about to embark on it's new buisness model of RMT's. I think it's vital for consumers to make a stand before something much worse happens in The Agency.
Come on now you know there is nothing anyone can do to stop one of Smeds ideas no matter how bad they may be.
Well, to be frank there really isn't that many new comers.
I think the return of veterens would greatly outnumber those people. I think at this point we can all agree on that.
They have <30K subs (paying) left and falling. A few classic servers would bring at least that back, maybe more. Neither the failing NGE nor classic servers are going to keep this thing going for too much longer, but I think classic would keep it going far longer and with more $$$ than they otherwise are going to get.
I always have thought that the real reason they don't do classic is ego. Soon as they did this the NGE servers won't have 200 people left on them. It's NOT LucasArts preventing them from doing classic, they'd be stupid themselves to not allow it if SOE asked.
At this point I hope they don't do classic. It would be a cynical move to siphon bucks out of the shafted vets one more time.
Exactly, you do not know what they are talking about. You said it in the first sentence you are very new to SWG. If you had been there and built this amazing world and devoted 2+ years of your life to the game and have it all ripped away in a 24 hour period you would get it. Glad you are having fun but all SWG vets who loved and were devoted to this game indeed have a lot of reasons to complain. You know no other mmorpg has ever screwed it's loyal players the way SOE did with SWG. The first day I logged in the NGE my two years of developing my Master creature handler, master Bio-engineer and master Jedi (one full year of work to achieve) were simply removed and in the case of my jedi made useless. What UO, Doac, and any other game that have made changes did, are no where near what happened to the players in SWG. You simply have been fed crap and only crap so you really do not know any better. Believe me the vets have all the reasons and rights to complain about the current state of SWG and what happened to them. I have gone back 3 times since NGE with as much of an open mind as possible and you know what? It is a steaming pile!
I have been playing since Launch and I have to agree with Lonewolf.
i agree with lonewolf too. i will always say this, you dont know mmo lovers until youve met players from ffxi and swg pre nge. The people who play those two games are some of the most dedicated players i have ever met in my life. i can remember newsday doing an article on how upset people were when swg changed. They actually interviewed a woman who was a professor in texas and she had 15 accounts!!! They had other interviews abotu how people went into depression, tons of examples like this. SWG-cu had its issues, and in my opinion no version of SWG has trully given a real star wars experience, but good and bad video game experiences. One thing is for sure though, SWG pre nge had some of teh most dedicated and loving communities ever. Thats why so many were and are still hurt about what was done to that game, and ultimately done to them.
I just wanted to take a second to give kudos to everyone for keeping this discussion civil.
It really is a rarity here, and I for one am glad to see it.
Well, to be frank there really isn't that many new comers.
I think the return of veterens would greatly outnumber those people. I think at this point we can all agree on that.
They have <30K subs (paying) left and falling. A few classic servers would bring at least that back, maybe more. Neither the failing NGE nor classic servers are going to keep this thing going for too much longer, but I think classic would keep it going far longer and with more $$$ than they otherwise are going to get.
I always have thought that the real reason they don't do classic is ego. Soon as they did this the NGE servers won't have 200 people left on them. It's NOT LucasArts preventing them from doing classic, they'd be stupid themselves to not allow it if SOE asked.
At this point I hope they don't do classic. It would be a cynical move to siphon bucks out of the shafted vets one more time.
Classic Servers would be a short term fix and that's it.What would happen is something along the lines of this. You would get 'some' Players coming back, not 250k. My guess would be 'maybe' about 40k at the max. See alot of people have moved on from SWG, and one big thing you have to remember is, many people where happy with the CU. Really the CU didn't have big numbers leaving the game, most already left in 2004 for WoW... Still lets just say the 'Classic' Servers end up being Pre-CU.
First things first, RoTW and ToOW won't work in that system. There go's some content that people do like and people did pay for, I wouldn't put it past posts showing up of "Get Kash and Mustafar working on Classic!!! Cuz I did pay for them too!!!" SOE could make a Video of a Puppet telling them 'why' just getting both of those to work in a Pre-CU system in easy to understand terms, and people just wouldn't get it.
Two, you've just come out with a Server running a system that hasn't been touched in almost 3 years. Even if people claim "We don't care!!! We'll pay and play it just like it is!" That would last about a week, maybe two before the posts of "OMG THIS IS BROKE FIX IT!!!" start...
Mark my words if it did happen, it wouldn't be a lovely thing after a month.
I see the old argument about the value of in-game items is popping up again. I'll give you my (legal) view on it.
It is an established legal fact that intellectual property does not have to be material (think of music, novels, movies, images, newspaper articles, ideas / patents). It may not have physical existence in the world, but it remains something that has protection under the law, and it has (provable) value. The fact such ideas are developed with external tools (word processor, graphics editor, music composition program etc) does not mean the maker of the tool - which in fact is no more than an aid to the imagination - can ever be considered the owner of the product made with that tool
When we move on to SWG, we get a situation where pre-NGE, people were encouraged to use their fantasy to create THEIR experience, as explicitly stated on the box the game was sold in. This went a bit farther then other games, because not only the virtual characters we played were unique, so were the items generated (loot) and created (crafted goods). Using the in-game tools, we made items of which the quality depended on our imagination, resources and skill. Accounts on which certain of these goods were gathered, and toons developed a certain way, were valued at and sold for hundreds of dollars. So their WAS demonstrably real value tied in to the virtual world of SWG.
I would argue that the NGE did, in fact, destroy OUR intellectual property. The time and creativity invested in our characters and items was destroyed by turning those into something completely different without consultation or consent.
This whole area is as grey as can be, unfortunately. Lawgivers are usually 10 years or more behind the time when it comes to computer technology and problems therewith. In Korea, I think SOE could have been prosecuted for grand theft (they have laws concerning virtual items, which include in-game ones). In other countries, the situation is still being looked at. There has already been at least one case where people were arrested for the theft of in-game items in Europe.
Leaving that aside, there is also the moral issue. Even if SOE had the legal right to change things this drastically (which, as said, is up to debate, EULA or no EULA), I think they did not have the moral right to destroy something that people had invested 2 1/2 years in, just from a stated desire to attract a new audience. Their arrogant conceit we would just lie down and take it is what to this day makes people fume when they hear the words 'SWG' or 'SOE'.
If you enjoy the game NGE has become, by all means play it. But don't expect us to cheer. I personally have 5 boxes inviting me to 'follow your own path with a skill-bases advancement system, which accommodates your style of play' and to 'build everything [ ] and live in a world entirely of your own creation'. When I look at SWG, I see LEVELS, forced linear levelling and a mainly loot based economy. Those are not game CHANGES, that is an entirely different game.
Linna
Linna well said.
You have a series of valid points here but, in the end, unfortuntely, it comes down to "Gameplay expirience may change during online play". The whole ToOW-thing, probably does have a legally valid argument behind it, but thats as far as i see it going, and they refunded that money as a result. I was interested in the idea of this intellectual property not actually being theirs to own, but im afraid i'd have to dismiss it upon the grounds that if every MMO brought out was to accept that they did not own these sorts of things and were legally responsible if something should happen to the game as a whole, compromising people's time invested, you'd see a lot less MMOs, the cost would be just too large.
The drama on Lowca was something else.
There were those that you just loved to hate, and others you just hated to love. : )
You have a series of valid points here but, in the end, unfortuntely, it comes down to "Gameplay expirience may change during online play".
We have to repeat this countless times as a warning to everyone.
WARNING "SOE may change Gameplay expirience during online play"
The whole ToOW-thing, probably does have a legally valid argument behind it, but thats as far as i see it going, and they refunded that money as a result. I was interested in the idea of this intellectual property not actually being theirs to own, but im afraid i'd have to dismiss it upon the grounds that if every MMO brought out was to accept that they did not own these sorts of things and were legally responsible if something should happen to the game as a whole, compromising people's time invested, you'd see a lot less MMOs, the cost would be just too large.
Great idea, less companys like SOE who clearly compromising people's time invested.
You have a series of valid points here but, in the end, unfortuntely, it comes down to "Gameplay expirience may change during online play".
Pardon me, but isn't that warning explicitly tied to the ESRB rating, as a disclaimer that the rating that is given to the game by the ESRB is based on, bascially, a snapshot of the game due to its nature of being an ongoing concern? So don't blame the ESRB if it's in a different "ratings state" down the road?
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
The "gameplay may change" issue is what disturbs me the most. It gives far too much power to the corporation, and strips the consumer of any protection.
There must be some kind of middle ground in this. Developers must be allowed to make changes to the game as needed. But the consumer must, at the very least, be assured of some basic gameplay features.
I think this middle ground is to the mutual benefit of both consumers and corporations. The question now is how do we get these regulations, and who defines what is acceptable to change?
You have a series of valid points here but, in the end, unfortuntely, it comes down to "Gameplay expirience may change during online play".
We have to repeat this countless times as a warning to everyone.
WARNING "SOE may change Gameplay expirience during online play"
The whole ToOW-thing, probably does have a legally valid argument behind it, but thats as far as i see it going, and they refunded that money as a result. I was interested in the idea of this intellectual property not actually being theirs to own, but im afraid i'd have to dismiss it upon the grounds that if every MMO brought out was to accept that they did not own these sorts of things and were legally responsible if something should happen to the game as a whole, compromising people's time invested, you'd see a lot less MMOs, the cost would be just too large.
Great idea, less companys like SOE who clearly compromising people's time invested.
Ok, if you were in charge of such things, im sure much of the industry would be destroyed, but you know best.
Any game in which anything was change (for the better or not), a single person could claim this change ruined their time invested and sue the company, good idea.
And i believe the Gameplay may change thing is also tied to the game itself.
The "Gameplay expirience may change during online play" statement is posted on every MMO box released, and I expect things like tweaking or revamping items, defense/offense mechanics, balancing weapons/armor or classes. But nobody in their right mind would completely mutate the core system, twice at that, like SOE did, the comparison of the original SWG is like a completely different game to the NGE, the NGE should have been a seperate game to begin with. I wasn't particularily happy when they changed locked-target and skill-based mix and match profession builds into a really badly done pseudo-FPS level-based restricted classes and making reward items better than crafted items.
Ok, if you were in charge of such things, im sure much of the industry would be destroyed, but you know best.
Any game in which anything was change (for the better or not), a single person could claim this change ruined their time invested and sue the company, good idea.
And i believe the Gameplay may change thing is also tied to the game itself.
That would be a big step forward, harm someone's game experience and you be sure of law-suit. Like it is in many aspects of life. In hope company's fear to pay compensation they more "polite" to their customer and i am sure Smedley would have interpret some polls in an "other" way and had don't commented the result like "they vote with feets".
Me would be now on a world trip from the money i would receive in an out-of-court settlement
Serious such a progress serves customer's best interests. The fear of "nothing would be developed" then is brute propaganda. Sure many things would be considered a second time, but don't get things and changes developed in other branches because customer have more rights ? I see here some chances for companies to advertise with "Competitors change your skills/items/game environment every now and then, we offer you a guaranteed experience for the next years". Sure such a world has to be very polished from scratch what can't be counted as one of SOE's strength.