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Is Immersion Dead?
Lateris
Member UncommonPosts: 1,848
Recently- I am seeing less immersion in MMO's. Travel times are cut in half by loading screens. Players complain about quest times taking to long. Players seem to be wanting more for less time involved. There seems to be "I want it now" mentality in MMO's these days. I find this a process that will only hinder new ideas for virtual worlds. Has anyone else noticed this trend over the last 4 years?
Comments
I have noticed that it is incredibly boring to travel the same 20 minute road 100s of times.
When I get home from my 20-40 minute commute home from work, the last think I want to do is commute in an MMO.
So a lot of these factors you talk about are "improvements".
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Playability and fun are becoming more important than they used to be. In older games people followed the older MUD models of getting X HP back per tick, despite that often meant waiting 10-20 minutes to heal up after a big fight. EQ had minigames to help you pass the time while you waited. That should have been a clue that EQ had problems. Also, large death penalties make games less fun, as you have to stick to weaker foes and tamer fights to avoid getting set back.
Spending a long time traveling from one place to another is boring, so griffons and whatnot have sprouted up in many games, for example. Waiting for your health and mana to come back is deadly boring, so newer games have faster regen rates out of combat.
I like the way things are progressing. The virtual worlds now include superheroes and pirates, which is nice.
Do you think a game needs random time sinks to be "immersive," whatever that means?
Yes I do think time sinks are part of the process for immersion. I like how you summed that up.
I think it adds to the overall quality of world design.
Edited for an example.
Say in SWG. Immersion to me would be you walk on a shuttle, sit down. It takes off and it flies across the planetary map to your destination. A droid states landing time and so forth. The shuttle lands. You walk out the door. Travel time is 3 minutes. with no download screens. Complete universal immersion.
Tedium != Immersion
I walk onto a platform. A device hums, or a mage chants a few words. I am transported to where I need to be. I feel suitably immersed. If anything the three minute travel time ruins immersion - I'm probably going to get a glass of water, read a book, something else for 3 minutes.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
If there is a portal between point A and Point B, why even have a coder develop and server space devoted to the space in between? Also, if there is no dimension of time involved in regeneration or travel, then gaming becomes nothing more than a stat and button mash.
There's something not very "massive" about our massive multiplayer games. It seems like the worlds and our goals there shrank considerably, and nobody really cares anymore about exploring, or social/roleplay. 50% of Bartle's archetypes have been nerfed out of their fun, simply because the achievers and PKers want their fun faster.
The worlds seem too small, and I think it's because we have become small as gamers. We keep on complaining about "wasted time," yet we waste time in a video game.
But besides that, I also believe that a game without some sort of measure of time and space worked into the mechanics creates higher turnover, more burnout, and increased dissatisfaction with the game. I mean, you physically cannot put up with more than a few hours of that fast paced play, and you play sessions are shorter. Which is, ironically, what I believe the publishers really want.
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"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I don't need developers forcing me to explore or roleplay. I do those things by myself because I enjoy them.
There's nothing standing in the way of any player doing the same. Pay no attention to those that are looking for the fast lane...do things on your own terms.
I have noticed that it is incredibly boring to travel the same 20 minute road 100s of times.
When I get home from my 20-40 minute commute home from work, the last think I want to do is commute in an MMO.
So a lot of these factors you talk about are "improvements".
So how come most MMO's that has better transport like for example mounts, makes them available only to high level peoples? These high level peoples usually can afford quick travel via gates or portals(in the games where that cost), yet they also get the fast ground transport
"I want it all, and I want it now."
^ This is a bug in humanity.
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
Many people will say you that if in this "mmorpg" called Earth is not possible have it all and have it now, the bug is the own Earth and not of the humanity
I don't need developers forcing me to explore or roleplay. I do those things by myself because I enjoy them.
There's nothing standing in the way of any player doing the same. Pay no attention to those that are looking for the fast lane...do things on your own terms.
Fast lane for the sake of what? Enjoyment? All it means is that you'll get bored faster.
Look, I don't know about anyone here, but it seems that a lot of people on this board compain about meaningless grinds, lack of content, camped spawns, lag, too much emphasis on stats and levels, and too much raiding/looting/PvP.
We never had a lot of these complaints back when we just played the games in their large worlds, and never complained about "it's taking too much time and it's boring."
Five years later and guess what? The games get the players to the action faster than ever before, get through the grinding faster, and get us through the content so quickly, that the devs can't ever keep up with the content players consume.
Not only that, but we haven't haerd complaints about the boredom in games go away. This time though, players are just bored of combat, which is a real thorny problem, because how can you possibly make the time of highest tension in a game any higher, without some times of low tension to make the high tension times stand out?
It's like a play or a movie. You need a lot of time in the low points in dramatic tension so that the high points feel like real high points. Now I'm sure anyone who watches a movie would rather it skip through all the 60 minutes of "low key stuff" so it could get to the 30 minutes of "good stuff." The problem is that the movie doesn't work without the "low key stuff."
It's not a matter of individual choice. It's a matter of what the best formula for enjoying an entertaining experience includes.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
It depends on how you define "Immersion" I guess. Not everyone likes the same thing. Whats wrong with wanting more for less time involved?
Are you defining "Immersion" as time consumming (grind, time sinks and automated 10 minute horse rides)? IMHO, thats not Immersion, thats taking up my time with nonsense because a dev team couldn't take the time to do something truely immersive and creative.
immersion is not a time sink, immersion is logging in and being able to be in a completely different world for an hour or two.
time sinks are not immersion since you're likely to open up a new window or a book.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I have noticed that it is incredibly boring to travel the same 20 minute road 100s of times.
When I get home from my 20-40 minute commute home from work, the last think I want to do is commute in an MMO.
So a lot of these factors you talk about are "improvements".
So how come most MMO's that has better transport like for example mounts, makes them available only to high level peoples? These high level peoples usually can afford quick travel via gates or portals(in the games where that cost), yet they also get the fast ground transport
Well, not all games limit transportation to higher levels. SWG, for instance gives you a vehicle when you start out, and you can buy or receive even better ones from the first minute you hit the turf.I guess some games do it because they want to keep you hooked on the game by giving you something to level for. Personally, I think it's stupid, just as I think it's stupid that armor and weapons in some games have level restrictions.
Personally, I think it's stupid.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Immersion is a personal thing,its not something that can be magically dropped into a game.Those guys who paint little figures and have battles with them,I cant think of anything more dull and lame than that,yet theres an absolutely enormous industry worldwide that has spread from guys simply being immersed enough in their game that they become lifelong fans.
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im·mer·sion
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??n, -??n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-mur-zhuh
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Immersion doesnt mean grinding in an online video game-yes,thats right,a GAME not a real life simulation.
There seems to be an attitude that games should all be back to the good ol days of 1997 where were all grinding weapon skills for years on end and travelling through empty wilderness for hours.This is a hinderance to MMOs as it promotes huge grinds and timesinks with no real effort or content.
I'm a big fan of travel for immersion in game worlds.
I remember when I played EQ before the Planes of Power Expansion and everyone had to run, that trying to get from Qeynos to the Druid Rings in Karana was a huge deal for a noob like me. A lot of the fun I had in EQ is exploring the icelands of Halas and 'discovering' new dangerous parts with a friend.
Although I might be an extreme example. I even disabled Fast Travel in Oblivion.
I have noticed that it is incredibly boring to travel the same 20 minute road 100s of times.
When I get home from my 20-40 minute commute home from work, the last think I want to do is commute in an MMO.
So a lot of these factors you talk about are "improvements".
Dangerous travel is not boring. The cross-Antonica trek in EQ1 was scary (especially High Pass and Kithicor).
The problem with these new MMORPG's is nothing is really scary, not even the dungeons. Therefore, everything is trivial. And boring.
I find travel times in a game like EQ 1 to be stupid and frustrating; due to being pointless and therfore it actually breaks immersion.
One thing I was thinking about the other day. As a new player in DDO I find soloing to be more immersive Ican take my time and I get to solve and all the puzzles and find all the traps. In group it is all just rushed through and already known. Unfortunately I haven't come up with a way around that issue that i think devs could implement. It is too bad that solo play is so badly punished in DDO though as I like to do a dungoen solo and then do it with groups. I get the immersion and am better prepared.
I have noticed that it is incredibly boring to travel the same 20 minute road 100s of times.
When I get home from my 20-40 minute commute home from work, the last think I want to do is commute in an MMO.
So a lot of these factors you talk about are "improvements".
Dangerous travel is not boring. The cross-Antonica trek in EQ1 was scary (especially High Pass and Kithicor).
The problem with these new MMORPG's is nothing is really scary, not even the dungeons. Therefore, everything is trivial. And boring.
I think this hits the nail on the head. There is no fear or really anyother emotion in MMOs. I agree the first time I started playing EQ and had to go anywhere my heart would pound my legs would go weak when something latched on to me. When I got where I was going I was so releaved, I felt that I had accomplished something. I suppose this is what I want in immersion feeling like I have worked hard to accomplish something, being scared. If all you have to do is click on an NPC or item and bam you are 200 miles away with no risk, if the death penalty is little more than 5 minutes of rez sickness, then it is more like a job, I log in, join the leveling race and then logout. I play WoW now because you have to run some and my friends are there but I would like something more challenging.
Really would anyone play a game that once you logged in you were in a buildingless city where all the NPCs were lined up in front of you, you click on a quest giver and are teleported to a one room dungeon, where mob after mob spawns with a rest time between each mob, until the boss spawns. Once you kill the boss you recall back to the city and hit the next quest giver. No travel, no thinking, all right there.
Immersion is a personal thing,its not something that can be magically dropped into a game.Those guys who paint little figures and have battles with them,I cant think of anything more dull and lame than that,yet theres an absolutely enormous industry worldwide that has spread from guys simply being immersed enough in their game that they become lifelong fans.
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im·mer·sion
/??m?r
??n, -??n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-mur-zhuh
n, -shuh
n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
~~~~~~~~~~
Immersion doesnt mean grinding in an online video game-yes,thats right,a GAME not a real life simulation.
There seems to be an attitude that games should all be back to the good ol days of 1997 where were all grinding weapon skills for years on end and travelling through empty wilderness for hours.This is a hinderance to MMOs as it promotes huge grinds and timesinks with no real effort or content.
Unfortunately there are a number of people who want a simulation game and simply don't realize they are not playing one.EQ1 is the best example of this. As a simulation game its awful and yet they insisted on putting in huge barrier to try to make it into a half ass simulation.
The confused people scream out "Lack of Immersion!!!!!" as soon as the game tries to make itself more internally consistent. But if things went the way they wanted you would have crazy mish mash of things that make no sense when put together.
If you want that kind of feeling then play a decent simulation game like EvE online. A grindy D&D game that is completely centered around "good spots" for grinding is not a simulation game and can never be one. Not in the way they want.
You think EQ1 travel got less cumbersome because people whined and are just pussies compared to the uber hardcore pure of heart? No. Wrong. It became that way because the game was not designed to have realistic travel. Realistic travel seriously interfered with the character goals they designed into the game and offered no value added.
Realistic travel in EvE is fine because you never need to cross the Eve-verse you can stay in system all you like. Realistic travel and localized markets are barriers but they also cause certain things to be possible such as trade routes between different markets. Travel is a burden and purposely a burden, but it does not interfere with the instrinsic goals of the game. You are supposed to be a local operator at any one point and Eve0verse spanning opreation are meant to take an organized campaign.
Contrast that to EQ1 travel. It serves no in game purpose and actually interferes with getting to the specific dungeon or trainer you may need to get to. You may even need to do that trip often. It certainly puts up large barriers to group formation which is the rock bed of EQ1. It is back-ass-wards. It simply could not stand indefintely no matter how much "immersion" it may cause. Anyone playing an EQ clone should realize that simulation style immersion is simply not possible beyond a certain point.
You want a simulation that is fine, I can understand. But believe me trying to jam simulation into an EQ-style game simply makes it painful and boring and unplaybale.
Frankly, other the Blizzard name, its the only reason WoW is an aroder of magnitude more successful than EQ1. If EQ1 had thrown out the old "we must punish you to make it feel real" mentality from MUDs, and yes its from MUDs I tried many times to convince Devs it was wrong headed, then they would have had a game people felt much better about spending any time in.
Frustrating and obviously pointless "features" make people feel bad about things. When people feel bad about them they leave or never join. Even if like other things about it.
I think we will see immersion slowly re-emerge as wow-clone after wow-clone die quick and deserved deaths!
Interestingly I think folks have taken what they perceive to be the reasons for WOW's success and just amped them up a bit. More instancing, less travel, less risk, less downtime, no death penalty etc. The fascinating thing is theyve taken it to far. As much as I dont like WOW, the game isnt that instanced, travel does take some time, there is some risk v. reward in the game, the world feels large etc. The games that have attempted to clone it-since its release-have just taken the "easy and accessible" parts and put them on steroids.
As long as the MMO market continues to spend 10's of millions of dollars on every release in an attempt to make the next WOW I believe we will see less immersion and more failures. As this continues I think we will see companies wise up, lower thier expectations, focus a bit more intensely on specific niches and build games around a success model of 25,000-300,000 sub's rather then millions. When this occurs immersion, in some form, should re-appear.
I sorta liken it to the movie business. Right now most game companies are trying to make the next Titanic. Nobody is out there trying to make the next Pulp Fiction. Once the market regains its sanity-and more game failures (Pirates of the Burning Sea for example) add fuel to sanity fire I think we'll see real games, with real content, real depth and real immersion show up.
For me I think EVE is a perfect example of a development team that knew it wasnt making Titanic, had no desire to make Titanic, and had a business model that would survive if they were just a moderately successful indy film. As it turns out-when you know who you are, stay focused, remain uncompromising to the pressures of making a "hit"...the product turns out pretty damn good and before you know it-youve got yourself a REAL , perhaps even accidental, hit!
I miss immersion, i miss real community that goes beyond just interacting with your guild, I miss having consequences for my actions, that unsettled feeling you get before a wipe in a deep dungeon, that great feeling you get when you survive when you shouldnt have, or make it through a particularly dangerous area...it will be back just let the market work its brutal magic on the sillyness that are AAA MMO releases of today.
For now..and for the distant future you can find me in EVE
If putting on autopilot and going to watch TV for ten minutes (and then forget that you are playing EVE and end up watching TV for 30 minutes) is immersion for you, then we have different ideas of immersion.
This is why I keep saying WoW will probably be the last game for a long time to reach the sub levels it does. Everyone wants different things from an MMO (see the endless debates about what skill actually is or isn't) and no one game is going to make everyone happy, and any game that does is just going to fail miserably.
The threads popping up lately are different from the 'skill' threads but the same in a way - do people want a game that feels like a game, or a game that feels like a virtual world? The answer is both of course and no one game can do both at the same time, at least not very well.
I have to thoroughly disagree with you gestalt travel time is a very immersive factor in MMOs. Without it there's no exploration or random personal adventures just the designed poo doo that games have like 'go here kill 10 wolves" bs. While I'll agree that travel times in the Original EQ were Obsessive they did still add a very immersive factor for people who were into Role Playing. After all it is an MMORPG. I'm all for cutting down obsessive travel times but removing them completely just destroys immersion.
I still remember the days of sitting around on the docks meeting people while we all waited for the boats. Laughing and drinking on the boats while we watched people get pummeled on the islands by Cyclopes or just having a merry old time. Some of the coolest peeps I met were during travel like the terrifying attempts at night runs through Kithicor Forest. You say things like that don't add anything of value to the game but it did. It added a really important social factor to the game. Nothing beats getting through a dangerous area with a group of strangers and everyone cheering about making it out alive.
Games that are fully instanced like DDO & Guildwars are perfect for leaving out travel but when you have a true massive world travel should be important otherwise how are you going to explore and adventure outside of just the standard quests? I guess in the end it just comes down to the type of player you are. If your an RPer (or atleast someone into exploration and enjoying all the world has to offer besides XP) or and old school MMOer then full immersion including having travel times (hopefully not completely obsessive ones) is part of the immersive factor. If your in it just to level and grind then you want less travel because immersiveness obviously has a completely different meaning to you.
To me Immersion isn't dead....but if you group with the wrong people it can be injured.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
If putting on autopilot and going to watch TV for ten minutes (and then forget that you are playing EVE and end up watching TV for 30 minutes) is immersion for you, then we have different ideas of immersion.
A ten minute route is like 10 jumps. Why are you doing tend jumps? Most people in EvE do not travel this much all at one time unless they are running a trade route or a courier mission.
If you don't like then then don't do it. I never said everyone liked that sort of thing. But going from one system to another takes all of 30 seconds with the warp to 0 km now in place. A normal ratting mission does not usually send more than 2 systems away.
The key difference between Eve and EQ1 is that you do not ever need to do what you just said whereas in EQ1 you do, heck even in EQ2 you can have a 5-10 run across Antonica just to finish some stupid kill ten crabs . In fact your statement is misleading because it implies this is necessart in Eve.
You should perhaps blame yourself for doing something you don't like in Eve when you could have been doing something else. Anyone who think regular ten minute multiple jump trips in Eve is the regular order of business clearly does not understand the game.
Now this doesn't mean I beleive Eve is a really fun game or that people in general will like. it And I do think its a bit too slow. Harvesting wrecks after killing a lot of ships is a pain for me. In fact it is one of my major problems with the game. Spending 10 minutes just flying between wrecks makes me groan.
But that doesn't change the fact that your statement is essentially wrong and even misleading. Its like saying well if you think climbing Mount Everest is fun then that is cool but your are nuts and that is what the game is all about. No most people are usually making the equivalent of a run to the grocery store or a minor drive. They only go on large trips for special occasions or a small number of people regularly run larger trips because they like it. You can go on hours long trips to the other end of the galaxy if you want, but by no means do you ever need to.
You can easily make a couple million ISK in three hours using just a low quality level 2 agent in empire high security space doing kill missions and never spend more than 5% of your total time in traveling because you will never do more than a two warp hop and you warp to jump range now.
Not saying this will get you rich or anything, but its a very low level example of how to make enough money in one week to buy a Tech 2 frigate (say an interceptor) and never be traveling more than 1 minute of consecutive time.
The problem with Eve is not the 10 minute long trips. The problem is they never make it clear you don't need to do it. They just tell you to go to an agent and then you invariably get a courier mission and then you are like "Is this what I am supposed to do?".
when i tried out the trial I ran a bunch of courier missions and then every once in a while got a kill mission. Well guess what? I decided I didn't like ten minute auto pilot (which still warps to 15 km from jump so is quite slower) and then figured out Security and command agents give mostly kill missions. Now I don't need to do that.
If I were a pirate I would operate the same way, warping around with a scanner or using local and checking maybe 4 systems I can travel to in under a few minutes.
All non trade route runners work this way, because guess what? Most of the people who play Eve do not want to do 10 minute routes on auto-pilot. And guess what? The Eve Developers want it that way because it is an intentional barrier to keep system local. And guess what? It works.
The problem is not that 10 minute long auto-pilot trips exist. The problem is not that you don't like them. The problem is you kept doing them even though there were plenty of viable other options and then blamed the game.
Granted its an easy thing to do and CCP would be wise to make the introductory stuff explain it better, but that doesn't make it correct.