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Pre revamp jedi trees
dcsn
Member Posts: 7
Sniffing around my old website i found few pics I got just before the revamp the save it for the "kids"
I hope you guys like it and remember that time
[]'s
http://www.calil.net/pre_revamp_jedi_trees.htm
Comments
bah jedi........
i miss killing them
4444 Jedi Knights were the bomb
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Jedi was the start of the games fall.
I can see where you're coming from and somewhat agree.. I'd say it was the removal of permadeath that really did it.
PD kept those buggers in line and made them exactly as they should've been. The smart ones were elusive and became formidible. The flamboyant young ones were nuked with droids or beat down in infancy. Either way, it was something special when you ran into a seasoned Jedi. Ultimate power at the ultimate price, so having one around was always risky and would make your night, one way or another.
Jedi added a lot to SWG until permadeaths removal made them a dime a dozen.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
The removal of permadeath gave us asshats with lightsabers duelling in front of the Theed starport.
Which is everything you need to know about why permadeath removal was a bad idea.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
It broke me in two to see those guys, wearing nothing besides winged hawtpants, force running figure eights in front of Theed star port.
I would think: "he grinded his ass off just to do this?" Why desecrate the Jedi profession in that way?
Permadeath was viewed as harsh. So harsh it didn't make Jedi worth it for many. Working as intended.
SWG Team Mtg.
Removing permadeath from Jedi ruined SWG.
I can see where you're coming from and somewhat agree.. I'd say it was the removal of permadeath that really did it.
DING DING DING. We have a winner. The whole reason SWG went into a slowly decline! Very few people will admit it though.
I can see where you're coming from and somewhat agree.. I'd say it was the removal of permadeath that really did it.
DING DING DING. We have a winner. The whole reason SWG went into a slowly decline! Very few people will admit it though.
I'll agree to that too, but I'll take it one step further. I say the introduction of Jedi was the start of the end.
After all, this was a Galactic civil War. The emphasis really should have been on Reb vs. Imp. Jedi only diluted the GCW by adding in a) a Jedi vs. BH war and b) a Jedi vs' Jedi war thru the FRS.
Jedi was simply and totally out of place in this game for obvious timeline issues, but also because they didn't fit into the grand scheme of what the game was about. Jedi didn't have to buy their weapons, and Jedi didn't have to buy their armor. This implies to me a shortsightedness on SOE's part when they added Jedi to the community and how it was going to affect others.
I can see where you're coming from and somewhat agree.. I'd say it was the removal of permadeath that really did it.
DING DING DING. We have a winner. The whole reason SWG went into a slowly decline! Very few people will admit it though.
I'll agree to that too, but I'll take it one step further. I say the introduction of Jedi was the start of the end.
After all, this was a Galactic civil War. The emphasis really should have been on Reb vs. Imp. Jedi only diluted the GCW by adding in a) a Jedi vs. BH war and b) a Jedi vs' Jedi war thru the FRS.
Jedi was simply and totally out of place in this game for obvious timeline issues, but also because they didn't fit into the grand scheme of what the game was about. Jedi didn't have to buy their weapons, and Jedi didn't have to buy their armor. This implies to me a shortsightedness on SOE's part when they added Jedi to the community and how it was going to affect others.
What i hated about Jedi is they broke the game and made every patch about them after that and the developers kept on ignoring everyother class and then towards the end it became about jedi vs BH patches. What i hate is that everyone just wanted to play Jedi so thats all people did and noone had fun playing all the other classes. I just prefered the game before when you had to make the best combo you could to suit you in combat and play with skill rather than knowing you had to roll Jedi as they were the alpha class.
After this though sooo many other things came in to break the game and it was basically them dumbing down the game slowly which broke all the things in the game. The game worked on all the social mechanics of the game and it's what i loved about the game...... i loved having TEF because i made a risk to attacking the enemy faction and i loved having to wait 10 mins at the starport and dueling people and chatting and 5 mins at the shuttle + it added risk to having TEF and not being able to escape easy. I loved the decay before the ADK's broke the game and having to keep going to crafters and buying more equipment,
All these things like Instant Travel vehicles and no wait at the starport and JTLS being able to instantly travel to other planets just ruined all this even futher and ruined the social aspects of the game which made the community close and great fun.
Sure SWG had problems but that could have been all fixed......... i spose Lucas Arts was pressuring SOE to make changes but they just don't understand that you can't change a game that's already been released.
I hear ya Slanmage.
But the difficult part was that Jedi had some of the most interesting skill trees.
Not only was adding Jedi a bad idea, but making them interesting and kind of immersive even worse.
Jedi was the last profession where you had more or less unlimited freedom to mix and match skills, because of the straightjacket of the CU level system, that REQUIRED two elite masteries to reach level 80. Jedi were of course exempt from this requirement, based on how skill boxes were weighted for Jedi in determining level. A different system from that for the "normies".
There was something of a controversy early on in the CU where Ranger skill boxes were not weighted for "level points" if you will as the brawler, medic, and marksman based professions were. So that if you had all those points invested in Ranger, and others invested in say pistoleer, it wasn't adding up to level 80. This was corrected early on, but the bottom line was that a "full template" with the rigid level system required you to invest points into full elite masteries, and you could not vary your skill points the way you could before without giving up the highest combat levels, because before the CU levels were not overt, and more importantly, because the world itself was modified so that your level determined how you interacted in combat, not your skillset. A fully committed to combat character who capped out at level 75 without one or more elite masteries was inherently weaker, regardless of skills, to a level 80 PvE opponent which received a combat modfication based soley on the level of the player.
Jedi were not constricted by this level activity...there were still template discussions amongst Jedi, but "normies" had to be two masteries with other skills filled in with whatever was left over if they wanted to be level 80.
This meant that to experience a fully customizable template, you HAD to be a Jedi. Otherwise your options were very limited, due to the constraint of having to invest points completely into two combat masteries to reach 80 regardless of whatever other skills you added in.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I can see where you're coming from and somewhat agree.. I'd say it was the removal of permadeath that really did it.
PD kept those buggers in line and made them exactly as they should've been. The smart ones were elusive and became formidible. The flamboyant young ones were nuked with droids or beat down in infancy. Either way, it was something special when you ran into a seasoned Jedi. Ultimate power at the ultimate price, so having one around was always risky and would make your night, one way or another.
Jedi added a lot to SWG until permadeaths removal made them a dime a dozen.
If I had my way with the Pre-NGE, Jedi would never be playable, in respect to the Original Trilogy's theme.
However, SWG had them in, but the Permadeath as you have said kept them in check. When details of Publish 9 getting ready to hit (if I had the patch # correct), we knew Permadeath was going to go away.
As soon as we had Pub.9 hit like s**t on a fan, Jedi were EVERYWHERE, and haven't let go of the game since.
You had Jedi parades at Theed in front of the Empire. You had Jedi duels in front of the Starports.
It got really bad. It got to a point where on Ahazi, Jedi were absolutley dominating the GCW. It got to a point where if you were a "normal" such as I was (Imperial Stormtrooper), you were a liability and not allowed into a PvP group.
Holy cow... SWG perverted Star Wars canon where I could regularly see more Jedi filling my screen than Stormtroopers.
I won't even get into the black hole of development time that Jedi sucked up. It was amazing how many patches were devoted to Jedi.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
on the fence here having been a pre - 9 jedi i do think they should have been in the game but perma-death removal was the killer.
I remember having a buffbot on tatooine, doing all my food shopping on my alt, grinding for hrs in Rancor valley on dath all by my lonesome.
In 6 months of grinding jedi i was attacked once , i had mastered 28 profs to get jedi and there was no way in hell i was letting myself become known to others perma death kept us in hiding as we should have been for the timeline.
Jedi was a problem for a few reasons. It was an Alpha Class and it was a Alpha Class based on the most popular characters in the movies. Everyone growing up wanted to be Luke or Darth and wield a Lightsaber and most people that play MMO's want to be the most powerful class that they can be. That is not a good combination for diversity in any MMO. Because it was so popular SOE figured they could make more money by making Jedi easier and easier to get until finally with the NGE they just gave it away. I cant really blame SOE for that move. Out of all the skills / classes they had Jedi was the most recognizable and easiest to market to the masses.
With the introduction of playable Jedi SWG became a game that was loosely based on the Star Wars Universe. At that point the time line got thrown out the window and SWG entered a kind or alternate reality. A time line where the Jedi had not become all but extinct. Infact there were more Jedi than anything else.
We can argue forever if an Alpha class works in a MMO or if there should have been playable jedi at all. I really just think the game was set in the wrong time line. It was a horrible lack of foresight. Im sure that was LA's fault. If the game had been placed in a time line that did not have restrictions Jedi could have been handled much better than it was.
I remember doing one of them legacy quests after the NGE and one guy goes "jedi are all but extinct" and tbh that's how they shoulda stayed in SWG. I would love to do some quests with Darth Vader or Yoda and stuff like that but i'd want Jedi to be NPC's and be rare.....
Only problem is LA wanted JEdi and the forum players were all crying for Jedi. Raph Koster said they should never be added into the game because they would ruin it and he was right.
I have very mixed feelings about what Jedi did to SWG and the overall effect on the game. I lean towards never having allowed Jedi in the game PERIOD. They should have been fearsome, irregular, NPC spawns that required co-ordinated effort by player(s) groups to take down. The 'I-wanna-be-a-Jedi' crowd could deal with that reality or move on. More focus would have been on the core game, which may have saved SWG. I know that having no player Jedi wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest.
The permadeath was a weak check-n-balane to Jedi. Even with such a harsh penalty, it did not prevent most of the players from particiapting in the Holo-craze and focus on grinding to get that uber toon (and yeah, second toon slot). Hiding in remote areas is not really participating in an mmo. Jedi and the resulting grind to be one had a very negative effect on the game and the community. I wasn't surprised when these same players whined their way out of perma death. If I wasn't sure before, I knew then the handwriting was on the wall for the demise of SWG as I knew (and loved) it.
Soon, even through the CU, there were so many Jedi (that needed very little from the player economy), it seemed pointless to be anything else to truly be viable in the game...plus who didn't want the second toon slot? I am guilty and did the grind for the second slot alone! Of course since Jedi were so numerous, they gradually were being nerfed to come in line with existing professions. Maybe Jedi should have been balanced all along, a not so independent profession, that was only available through the grind (or creative string of didfficult quests). The second slot should have been given to all or not given at all. Maybe the Jedi effect wouldn't have been so detrimental.
It doesn't matter now. The target audience has their push-button Jedi and empty servers to conquer in a loot based economy that depends on an endless, unchallenging, painful grind. $OE lost over 200k accounts and gained a horrible reputation in the process. We lost a game we enjoyed which had so much potential.
Permadeath was key in regulating the Jedi population. Its removal along with the holocron craze was the beginning of the end.
I totally undertand that once Jedi had been made playable SOE could not remove them, it's just unfortunate that once they were available it opened the flood gate for too many Jedi.
Once that happened I believed that the only way out of that mess was to make Jedi a) PvE only or b)neutral only.
Either way having Jedi removed from the GCW would result in seeing far less Jedi IMO, and Jedi could remain that "alpha class" as people expected them to be.
Never really thought about going that route. I wonder what would have happened if they had tried that. Well besides the Jedi whining and crying on the forums that is.
Never really thought about going that route. I wonder what would have happened if they had tried that. Well besides the Jedi whining and crying on the forums that is.
Actually, I'd forgotten to mention that I believed they should have added smugglers to the BH terminals. That way they could have had smugglers as the regular mission and Jedi as a premium mission - perhaps only available to Master BH's.
Smugglers made far more sense for BH's to be tracking as that what was seen in this time period - BH's tracking Han. Smugglers were criminals and it only made sense for them to be tracked.
They would actually have to add some form of smuggling to the game to make it worth it for the smuggler. Smugglers never got any love from SOE. Done right it would have been cool to be on a smuggling mission and run in to a BH that wants to kill you.
It's enough to make you scream in frustration at the lost potential.
Truly was the greatest mmo ever.
RIP - SWG
PD kept those buggers in line and made them exactly as they should've been. The smart ones were elusive and became formidible. The flamboyant young ones were nuked with droids or beat down in infancy. Either way, it was something special when you ran into a seasoned Jedi. Ultimate power at the ultimate price, so having one around was always risky and would make your night, one way or another.
Jedi added a lot to SWG until permadeaths removal made them a dime a dozen.
I agree, I liked the game when permadeath applied to the jedi. The ultimate penalty for the ultimate class.