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The big problem with the 'classic server' movement
The thing that confuses me most about this idea is....
What do you do when you finish the content?
A classic server up to Velious would be fun, I'll admit. Most of us think of this as the 'classic' period of EQ and it is where we have most of our fond memories, but I remember by the time that Luclin was released, my guild had pretty much finished all the content up to and thru Velious.
I suppose that working up a character and then tweaking that character out through all the quests and content would take a big chunk of time, but not an infinite chunk of time. Eventually, you'd be done. You'd have seen it all, done it all. Then what? Other than roll another toon - and even this has a limit - without ever having new expansions, the server would eventually die.
So is the idea only to have the classic server for 1 or 2 years and then just let it wallow and stagnate with a bunch of overly ubered out high end characters doing the same content over and over for equipment they already have?
I believe its a good idea, but in practice, it seems to be the opposite of what you'd want. A persistant world that is everchanging and everexpanding vs. a stagnant world with the exact same finite content forever.
Any thoughts?
Remember, the question is, what would you do after finishing the content, other than making alts?
Comments
What I suggested once (and I'm sure I've seen other people suggest it) is to start over with classic EQ; just the old world of original 1999 EQ, and then release completely new and different expansions.
In other words, no Kunark or any of the other familiar expansions. Make new expansions which take this neo-classic EQ in a completely different direction. That way they could avoid at least some of the mistakes they made and SOE could play their favorite game of squeezing more money out of people by cranking out new expansions.
The big problem with this idea is that probably no two people would agree on the "new" direction EQ should take. For me, I wouldn't even consider playing it unless they absolutely promised that there would be no raiding what-so-ever. Because more than anything else it was the switch-over from a soloing/grouping game to a raiding game that made me quit.
And in all honesty I'm not sure if I would play it anyway at this point. It's been so long now that I just don't feel as strongly about it as I used to. If they had done it a few years ago I would have been the first to jump in but now it may be too late.
Some old fogeys like myself do not enjoy constant drastic change. I play a small game right now called rubies of eventide that hasn't changed in about 3 years. I like it that way, it is familar and I know everyone.
After 7 years of playing this game non stop, i still have so much to do :
- getting my raider(main) character(cleric) to level 80 with all the new AAs, disc and all then beat the end game of the newly expansion with the guild,
- after that i usually play(box) my explorers (ranger+bard or shaman) and try to know everything of the content (lore, quests, tradeskills recipes, maps while i am leveling them too.
- i have 1 character for each class avalaible in the game and i level them all, i am usually half of them done before the next expansion come out
- i play hardcore ( 4-6 hours/day ) for the 2-3 months after a new expansion then i come back for a better life playing style ( 1-2 hours/day ).
Lately, i was helping ( 2 full months ), with a group of guildies, some returning peeps (2 groups) get flags and keys or gears/weapons...
Sooo much to do and i am getting old...
That why i dont support a classic server, i need new expansion (once a year is fine for me) for another Woooooaaaaaaa ! !
Not everyone likes drastic changes to items and economy.
MIMI
I know some of you don't like change - changes to the economy, etc. That isn't the question. The question is, what would you do on a classic server up to velious FOREVER with no new xpansions, EVER.
I think the biggest change / break in mechanics was PoP click a stones. No one needed a druid or wiz anymore unless they needed to pimp them for a certain buff, sow or to be nuke bait.
Bah....answer the question people.
The problem is that Everquest is not a sandbox game. Games like SWG or EVE could get away with the idea of a "classic" server which runs an older copy of the server code, and an older set of world data. In a sandbox game, the players drive the economy and the story. PvP is almost always a big part of this (both economic and combat).
Everquest is, well, designed around the idea of doing quests and exploring content. Sure, you can PvP if the server has that enabled, but it's not a major part of the game's design. As such, with no development team adding new content, you won't find much enjoyment after everyone has hit the level cap.
Now, if SOE ever released copies of the server code and data to the public (not likely, even if EQ3 comes out), perhaps there would be enough community developers who could build content around a central hub of people. The show stopper to that kind of thing is usually that fan communities seldom remain cohesive for long enough to accomplish anything big. The first time one of the main devs disagrees, it usually causes a fork and then the player community is fragmented and loses interest.
Consider how long people have been trying to reverse engineer SWG... they'll keep trying, but even if they got a 99% accurate server up and running with the pre-CU rules and content, it's doubtful they could really achieve a large enough stable player base to make it work (even assuming SOE and LucasArts wouldn't shut them down).
Oh yeah, answer the question: PvP. Without user-created content, that's all you CAN do.
I suspect the reason you're not getting any direct answers is that most of the folks that want a classic server don't care about "what comes next after you finish SoV." They would be perfectly happy being "stuck" in a game that ended at SoV. So your question is meaningless to them.
They don't like the content has been added since SoV, and so it not being available to them is a complete non-issue. They would rather play a "pure" old school style game that has a cap you can hit in a year or so than the "watered down" current game with years of content (most of which they don't care for).
I know it's hard to believe, but there are some players that don't really care if their end game is constantly being expanded. They don't need anything "to do" as long as they get to hang out in an online space they enjoy.
For example, take EQOA. The game overall has much less content than EQ launch through SoV. And because of the PS2 hardware limitations, it can never be expanded in any significant way. And yet the game holds steady at 10-20K subs. Once you have raided the last raid zone (about a year of work I would guess starting from level 1), there is literally nothing else to do. And yet it was revealed in a recent interview (which I'd be happy to link if your not willing to take my word for it) that EQOA has some of the lowest "churn" of any SOE product. There are thousands of players who have been happy with the game just the way it is for years now. Go figure.
I think a true classic server in EQ would attract the same kind of cult following. You'd see players that would stick with it for years, whether they had anything new to do or not. They would fart around with alts, roleplay, craft, or do crazy faction grinds. Not the sort of thing that appeals to me (I like my EQ "easy mode" and Luclin is actually one of my favorite areas). But I have never understood why the Devs don't implement a classic server for the crazies that would get into it.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
But only one person has answered the question who talked about a 'new direction' of expansions coming after Velious.We have answered your question and it is a red herring, so many of us in the "classic movement" tend not to address it. I will, again.
We are not interested in rushing through content. You are missing our point. We want to play Classic Everquest for 1) fun, 2) community, 3) challenge, 4) immersion, 5) world feel, and 6) other reasons.
Rushing through content is not a factor for us. We are not worried about "owning every raid mob" and then sitting back saying, "oh, now what?" because we will not be doing that. [And the people who do that will find a much less enriching classical experience, which totally undermined and would ultimately ruin the progression servers.]
-----
WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
We have answered your question and it is a red herring, so many of us in the "classic movement" tend not to address it. I will, again.
We are not interested in rushing through content. You are missing our point. We want to play Classic Everquest for 1) fun, 2) community, 3) challenge, 4) immersion, 5) world feel, and 6) other reasons.
Rushing through content is not a factor for us. We are not worried about "owning every raid mob" and then sitting back saying, "oh, now what?" because we will not be doing that. [And the people who do that will find a much less enriching classical experience, which totally undermined and would ultimately ruin the progression servers.]
But even if you don't rush the content, even if you slowly progress, eventually, you will finish the content. Going at a snails pace, how long do you anticipate the content taking? I know you aren't playing a 'classic' server for the content, or to progress, but you will progress, no matter how hard you try not to. And you will eventually finish. SOE knows this, and it is why the progression servers kept adding expansions, to keep people playing. No matter how much you think you can forever be happy in Velious as a lvl 60 sitting around with no more content to get, no aa's to diversify your toon, no craft left unmastered, you will get bored and move on. Maybe not you personally, but the vast majority who went to the server in the first place. After about 2 years I see a server with a small top end population of intractables that is absolutely content with nothing to do and a ghost town everywhere else on the server. I'm sorry, but no matter how much you are there for the community, there are just so many times you can kill the avatar of war without going nuts and most people will move on, despite their best dreams of a 'classic everquest for ever and EVER'.
Don't get me wrong, I love EQ, I have fond memories of the classic period, I just don't see a classic server as a reasonable long term business plan. If they want to milk a server for two or three years before it dies and then merge it, that'd be one thing (it may happen if this idea comes to fruition), but it simply would not be able to last ad infinitum.
In response to the OP's question:
I would just hang out. I would go around all billy-bad a$$ and help new players. I would continue to work on my faction. I would socialize with people. I'm tired of playing a game without end. Sometime I just want to log on, hang out, go to the old haunts and kill stuff.
My suggestion though to help players who aren't like me is as follows: SOE would allow free transfer off to any maximum level characters to any of the other servers. There would be no transfer back though. Only one-way off. This would then allow that player to experience new content of the game past the "classic" server, and keep playing there original character. This would also allow people to try the game in the old style, before jumping onto the rest of game. Think of it as a kind of incubator for new players!
Cheers!
Past: EQ, EQ2, DAoC, SWG, WoW, LotR, VG, WAR, GW, GW2, Rift
Present: The Elder Scrolls Online
Future: Everquest Next
I did earlier.
I don't like drastic changes to a game. I don't play my old games over and over because they are new, I do it because I love the games. I think the game server would rust apart before I made one of every class and tried out almost every race. So to answer your question, I don't care, I play a game right now called Rubies of Eventide that never changes. You got that right and guess what? There are people playing it because we love it. We like trying new builds, being with friends, and just being in the world we love.
Things don't have to constantly change for some believe it or not.
Also I would like to add even though DAOC classic servers are not truely classic they are very very popular. I know for one if EQ brought back EQ before Luclin, they would have my subscription fee at least for 3 years .. which is pretty dang good and maybe even longer after that. Why don't they just give an option on their webpage for a donation with a goal they set for making a classic server. I know alot of people who would just donate to keep this little world alive. If the game finally gets to the point where donations are not keeping it up, then shut it down.
I have a sneaky feeling that it wouldn't go down for years because like Rubies, alot of players will donate to keep their world alive they love.
I suspect the reason you're not getting any direct answers is that most of the folks that want a classic server don't care about "what comes next after you finish SoV." They would be perfectly happy being "stuck" in a game that ended at SoV. So your question is meaningless to them.
They don't like the content has been added since SoV, and so it not being available to them is a complete non-issue. They would rather play a "pure" old school style game that has a cap you can hit in a year or so than the "watered down" current game with years of content (most of which they don't care for).
I know it's hard to believe, but there are some players that don't really care if their end game is constantly being expanded. They don't need anything "to do" as long as they get to hang out in an online space they enjoy.
For example, take EQOA. The game overall has much less content than EQ launch through SoV. And because of the PS2 hardware limitations, it can never be expanded in any significant way. And yet the game holds steady at 10-20K subs. Once you have raided the last raid zone (about a year of work I would guess starting from level 1), there is literally nothing else to do. And yet it was revealed in a recent interview (which I'd be happy to link if your not willing to take my word for it) that EQOA has some of the lowest "churn" of any SOE product. There are thousands of players who have been happy with the game just the way it is for years now. Go figure.
I think a true classic server in EQ would attract the same kind of cult following. You'd see players that would stick with it for years, whether they had anything new to do or not. They would fart around with alts, roleplay, craft, or do crazy faction grinds. Not the sort of thing that appeals to me (I like my EQ "easy mode" and Luclin is actually one of my favorite areas). But I have never understood why the Devs don't implement a classic server for the crazies that would get into it.
I think you explained it well. I love it when people hit a wall in a game. Like in Rubies the community gets very active when this happens, we start making up our own little crazy things to do which is more fun than any content patch can do for us. There would be player races (who could make it across the continent the fastest, biggest train, etc) , there would be events etc. I know how these communities work, we don't need someone making our content!
I think that would work pretty well. Another option would be to open up AAs when you hit the level cap, so that you would have something else to grind.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
EQ was out for like 1 year before any expansion was added, WoW was out for 2 years before BC?
There is plenty of content with classic + kunark + velious. It just needs better graphics
for the worlds 8800 GTx's.
hmm classic+kunark+graphics update+shiny new box= WINNER
Bingo.
Related to your question, my dream? Classic servers up to Luclin (or Velious) + sandbox items.
EQ should never have moved past Kunark or Velious without adding sandbox items such as housing and battlegrounds. I know the hatred for PVP by most EQ players (I am one generally), but I enjoy a good battleground such as Wow has or what I always thought EQ needed: RVR such as classic DAOC had. Introduction of these two elements would would have prevented the loss of many players.
A complete graphics update would have been nice too. Not a reskinning like was performed, but an engine enhancement with improved skins to keep the same feeling to the game.
Without the engine upgrade I think this is on the level of a good expansion in terms of relative work (no more then the Kunark Expansion or maybe the Drakken one was).
With the engine upgrade it should be re-released as EQ, 1.5 or my label, "The Lost World of Everquest."
I know you have already heard many replies in the same vein...but people who want new expansions every 6 months and a equipment treadmill that requires them to play the game 60 hours a week are not the same folks who want the classic server. The classic server people are more in love with the grouping aspect of the game and how well the world was designed. If we are talking about EQ classic with the snails pace xp and hell levels, It would take me a couple years probably to run out of content and honestly at that point I would just create an alt or help out new players. Even cutting the world off at velious, it is rather large with multiple zones to level up. Thats what I miss about old EQ the most, people never alt and therefore newbies never make any friends or get any groups (and as a result quit the game). People feel the need to play their main characters because they need 1500 AA or some crazy amount like that in order to operate effectively in the modern game. When designers balance monster content against players, they assume players have all the AA and are raiders. This is why the last 3 or 4 expansions have chewed up casual players and made them leave.
The best solution would be to release kunark after a year and velious a year after that. This keeps the game locked up for at least 2.5 years before most people can explore/reexplore all the content. After that point, the people who expect new content can bugger off if they feel like, but many people like myself who would remain just because we enjoy the game. I can put Contra or Super Tecmobowl in my NES right now and id have my roommates, friends and neighbors all wanting to get in on the action. Some games just hold up and this is one of them assuming a classic server ever became a reality.
If a classic server was released and expansions were added in historical timeframe, we would have 2 1/2 years of play until Luclin and 3 1/2 years of play until Planes of Power, which was the expansion that signaled the downfall of classic EQ IMO. Either way SOE would have from 2 1/2 years to 3 1/2 years to develop new original content that stayed true to the original vision of classic EQ, and didn't focus on raiding and forced grouping to the detriment of small groups and soloing.
I would be perfectly content with just 2 1/2 years of classic EQ pre Planes of Power.
What makes anyone think that SOE would do this?
If they've spent the last several years actively ruining EQ, which is what the classic server folks argue, then why would they suddenly change their current direction and develop anything along the lines of what you're talking about? That makes no sense. Any new or original content that they'd develop would go to EQ servers that have an up-to-date client, not to a classic server. Why give anything new or original to a group of people who claim that they'd be perfectly content with just the first few expansions of the game?
Well, these players...
I think THEY want pre-fixed dates, at which point the expansions will kick in, not before, not after. It would also be appropriate to have a system to list the guilds achievements and the dates. Avatar of War defeated on May 5th 2008 by the Legions of Blablabla. This list could be polished and appealing...and easy to access, so you see easily, under each acievement, which guild did it first, second, third and so on. There is no sense to stop at Velious, because if you do, players will bore and leave and it would become a ghost server. The list however would most likely be appealing for them. Maybe have special tags available on these lists. It is all about EGO.
That's been said. I wouldn't care about classics. Maybe I would play a raid-free server, but I wouldn't want it to be a progression or classic (althought I would most likely cope with such a tiny annoyance for raid-free), I would want to play my old toons and have the transfer included and all expansions should be enabled there. Maybe...I dunno, the game is extremely old and outdated. I would almost certainly try a raid-free server...but...is it worth it for SOE? I wouldn't be extremely eager to try it, and they would possibly aggravate their existing players on other servers. But, I would try a raid-free version...and who know, maybe I will refalls in love...again, what can I say? I am also all about ego... :P
PS: raid-free = all raid loot available in another, "easier", grouping way...be it a LDoN merchant or as a drop loot from Tpos Icepaw! :P
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
As a long time EQ fan I would love to see a few things happen with this game. My feelings about a "classic server" are mixed because I definately started losing interrest with the release of luclin, but I do not want to play a game that does not progress after Velious content.
I would be very interrested (and perhaps this has been posted already, but i generally don't read 3 pages of posts on this site because there are so many pre-pubescent fanbois trolling every thread) in seeing a new dev team jump aboard the EQ train, and start an entirely different game post Velious. A sort of classic/rejuvinated EQ. Open with the origional, kunark, and velious; and after intervals of expansion release follow up with all new expansions.
That being said, I highly doubt SOE will listen to any sort of voice of the mass EQ1 fanbase that lost interrest in post velious content.
LA has already stated that the SWG emulation project is considered "fan art" and neither SOE nor them can ever touch SWG emu unless they start "charging" for the server code.
-Nuff Said
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.