Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Keyboard + Mouse vs. Controllers.... again....
Jimmy_Scythe
Member CommonPosts: 3,586
So I recently bought a 360 controller for my PC. Before this I had a Logitech pro gamepad. I've also owned just about every console ever made at some point.....
To give you a little background on what I'm about to say, let me start by reminding you all that, back in the day, I was a major flight sim jock. To play these games correctly, you needed to drop $200+ on the controller alone. Playing a flight sim with the keyboard and mouse was generally not an option because it didn't feel right and you had to work within the planes maneuvering capabilities anyway. This meant that your choice of controller hinged on two things: force feedback and dead zone.
The dead zone of a stick is the amount of space that you can move the stick without it sending a signal to the computer. All analog control devices have a dead zone. The smaller the dead zone, the more precise your maneuvering would be. Digital sticks didn't have a dead zone, so we went through a market phase where people bought digital controllers, but it they behaved too stiffly and were quickly abandoned.
The reason I bring this up is because the XBox 360 controller has almost no dead zone on either stick. It's still an analog controller that allows me a smooth gradient between slow to fast movement, but it will move with just the slightest nudge in any given direction and produce movement that feels just right. Furthermore, when you throw the sticks completely out, you can move really, really fast.
I was playing the single player version of Half-Life 2 with the 360 controller and didn't feel any impairment in my ability to play through even the hardest sections of the game. This was on the PC remember, so I didn't have any access to auto aim or auto lock that you would see in some of the earlier console shooters.
I'd like to do a formal benchmark of the 360 controller in comparison to the keyboard + mouse, but that's a lot of work and duller that dirt water. Instead, I've come up with a way to settle this that just might fun for the whole community here. That's all the people on the keyboard + mouse side of the fence and those on the controller side.
I say that we have an online throwdown of KB+M vs. controllers. I'm thinking TF2 or BF2 would do here since everyone owns one or both of those titles. PC versions only to keep it completely on the level with no auto lock or auto aim. I'm going to leave the finer details to anyone else that might be interested.
On a side note, I thought about using an MMORPG for this test, but it isn't like MMORPGs require this level control to play effectively.
Comments
For a MMO and RTS id take keyboard but for normal RPG and FPS its controller all the way. I was pretty good in BF2 with a keyboard and mouse(once i got a laser mouse had a ball one for so long)but im much better with COD4 and Halo 3 on the 360.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
In theory, no matter how complex the game is, the interface should be easily modified to fit the particular constraints of the hardware.
-- Brede
hmm..whats a controller? 32 axis? or soemthing liek that?
And a mouse is precision controlled as well as the 4 axis of a keyboard... Movement controls are probably better on controllers or gamepads.. while aiming.. Is hands down better with a mouse and keyboard setup..
Or, we could play a twitch shooter like the Unreal or Quake series, and completely dominate all those controller users out there.
Change my mind so much I can't even trust it
My mind change me so much I can't even trust myself
Ive always found the Mouse keyboard combo more intuitive myself, then again that's just me.
I have tried playing a FPS before with a controller [on the PS2 i believe it was]. I found it VERY hard to move and aim at the same time. So for myself prefer the Mouse For looking and the keyboard for moving. This is of course personal opinion so take it how you will.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
0000000000HHHH!!!! I didn't even think about Quake!!! Good call!!!
I normally run about a 5:1 (kills : Deaths) ratio average on pure deathmatches and that would be an awesome way to see if the 360 controller impairs my play in anyway.
As for this particular contest..... Rocket Arena in team mode?
And the 360 controller is technically a 5-axis controller since you have the X and Y axis of both sticks and the triggers are also one axis with left being negative and right being positive.... I think.
Plus you have four face buttons, two shoulder buttons, the four directions of the D-Pad and you can press either stick for two more buttons. I already mentioned that there was a virtually non-existent dead zone so you can achieve a startling degree of speed and accuracy.
It kind of depends on your style. I adopted the "aim for the feet with a splash damage weapon" years ago and that doesn't really require me to move the crosshairs too much. Basically I aim for a spot on the floor about 20 feet in front of me and strafe around until my opponent lines up with them. This also works pretty well in railgun duels, although in that case you'll be aiming center mass instead of at the floor.
Moving and timing are usually more important than aiming. While you're moving, you're harder to hit.
You can actually get a keyboard with its own thumb stick on the left side of the keyboard so you don't have to use the WASD. Also its 8 directions because you forgot about pressing 2 at the same time. I agree with several posters above. For FPS or games with complex controls I prefer a Keyboard. For anything else I prefer a controller.
Anyone play that Mech Game that had a $300 controller and the game cost $50?
I think a keyboard + Mouse vs controllers really depend on the game. In very fast paced games such as Unreal Tournament 3, a controller probably won't work as well as a keyboard & Mouse because it requires pinpoint accuracy at a very fast pace. However in a game like Call of Duty 4, Team Fortress 2 or Halo 3, where the focus of the game is much more placed on strategy & character placement, and in which the speed is much slower, you'll probably won't notice a huge difference.
what ever I start the game as is what I get stuck with. It's too annoying to learn the game a different way after you get to the relaxed thinking solely about strategy stage.
as for what I'll perfer I'll take the controller whenever possibly, it's just more comfortable to hold and easier to forget about. look I picked the controler up my hands are already where I need them. I can sit in any jackassedry position I want: chair, chair with head on one armest legs over the other, bean bag, upside down, and through harasment.... check. controlers also force developers to get make intuitive controls schemes since they tend to be easier to set up.
I also think controllers hare a major reason Halo was sucessful. rapid console fans that haven't played any computer shooters outside of counter strike(maybe), and a shooter that brings core computer shooter mechanics to the console. not to mention dual joystick is just plain inuitive even to someone who hasn't played a shooter(so I have my hands on WASD but sometimes I need to move them all the way to a random letter, number, or function key. then you toss a ctrl-something at me).
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I have a 360 controller hooked up to my PC as well. Whether I use it or the keyboard/mouse depends entirely on what game I'm playing.
For shooters I prefer the keyboard and mouse - it's what I've been using since my days of playing DOOM matches on a LAN and I'm used to it - all shooters follow the same conventions and it just works better for me. After listening to endless controller vs keyboard/mouse debates though I'm pretty sure there's no real bias one way or the other, I've seen some people play HALO with a controller do some pretty amazing moves.
For MMOs and RTS games controllers aren't generally an option - both require a pointing device and a controller is a poor substitute for a mouse in that regard. A wiimote-style device might be the way forward here, though I don't think the wiimote itself will do it (it's impossible to hold it steady holding it in one hand without it resting on something).
For all other games I generally prefer the controller - controlling vehicles especially is a lot more precise (and natural) with a controller, and for third-person games you generally move in a completely different method than a first-person game and, again, the controller feels better to me. Puzzle and arcade-style games generally have similar controller control schemes but vary wildly on a keyboard.
There aren't enough buttons on a control pad.
In the MMOs I play, just about every button on my keyboard is bound to some function. If I had to wade through a menu system, no matter how well designed, my ability to play the game would suffer.
That said, I love the 360 controller. It's by far the nicest controller I've played with. That was, before I sold my 360 for having absolutely nothing I was interested in. My PS2 was a much better investment, and I won't be getting rid of that any time soon...
And with pedals and yoke, in a Flight simulator.. gues what... you also need a keyboard, unless you spend more than 200+ (for CS products) for panels with buttons wiht dozens of fuctions (CS has a very good one for 400+ if I remember well, but others are around 1000$)
Mouse and keyboard pwn controllers. So many reasons, but basically its because FPS was really designed for keyboard and mouse.
Half Life 2 is a bad benchmark, because in general it is a high-strategy low twitch game. Here are some good benchmark games:
Painkiller - the original. Set it to nightmare. Good luck getting past many of the hellish levels, but enjoy the pretty scenery (Painkiller has the best level design in any game I've ever played).
Serious Sam 2 - ha. hahaha. No really, beat this on hard with a controller. Not even the hardest setting. Just hard.
Good god, you'll get owned so hardcore (well, at least once you get to the bridge in Painkiller. The first 3 levels are pretty easy). The twitch factor just isn't there.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
with a keyboard+mouse you can't move: 11 degrees to the left backwards, jump, aim in a different direction than you're walking, and prepare the grenade at the same time.
moving at something besides the classic 45 degrees and or the direction you're face poses a serious advantage to yourself. especially since muscle memory is expecting you to be moving ath those 45 degrees.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
This is like comparing a garden rake to a spade. They are both good for what they are designed. However, a rake is useless for digging and a spade makes a poor rake.
I concur with Thorwood. Various input devices are going to work dissimilarly in different situations.
- I use big joysticks and foot pedals for flight simulators (besides one remote control I use for a remote aircraft simulator). I also use them on some games with aircraft combat such as the battlefield series.
-FPS games, excluding the aircraft combat, require a mouse and keyboard for the best results with character control. I can't compare the speed and accuracy of a mouse to a joystick when it comes to aiming, and combine that with an arsenal of buttons on the keyboard it makes FPS and most 3D games easier. Sometimes using foot pedals or gamepads in conjunction with mouse/keyboard combo on games with a versatile control customization can make the game that much easier with a few more easily reachable buttons at your disposal.
-WASD character controlling and mouse controlling the camera is practically a must for 3D MMORPG because anything less doesn't feel right after playing so many FPS. Point-to-click movement and mouse camera controlling combined feels really awkward and makes it awkward to strafe while moving to enemies (I usually play classes that melee). Even if the game's AI will choose the quickest possible route to my enemy it just feels too fake and I lose interest in the gameplay.
-Controllers are better than the mouse and/or keyboard for a lot of arcade and console style games similar to street fighter or zelda for a shortened example. Lots of simple games with side scrolling, overhead views, fixed camera angles, fixed 3rd person views, etc. that don't require a lot of accurate aiming or an arsenal of buttons only need minimal controlling.
Spades are far more useful then rakes. I mean c'mon how many rakes were used in WW1.
I agree 100% on what you say as this is the philosophy I go by as well. That there are methods that tend to work best for the situations.
However, I didn't start that way. I started doing arrow keys for aim and , . keys for strafing/movement. It sounds weird but with a high sensitivity it worked for everything even long range except sniping, and actually put a lot more keys within reach than with WASD. To be honest in games with enormous amounts of keys for functions it still works if I feel like I would prefer to start in that method.
/rant