Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Does a skill-based MMO prevent PLing?
Zindaihas
Member UncommonPosts: 3,662
I'm not asking b/c I have anything against PLers. People can choose to play any way they wish. But it seems to me that level-based games where you gain xp just from grinding is structured in such a way that it's very easy to turn gameplay into a race to the finish line. Many players don't stop to enjoy the finer points that the devs programmed into the game. I know there are skill-based MMOs out there (UO is one), but I have never played one. For those who have, can you tell me if it's still possible to power level in them, or is advancement naturally slower? It seems like you could build a skill-based MMO that would make PLing very difficult.
Comments
Yes and no.
One of the big reasons use-based skill gain was dropped (UO-style) was that it was quite easy to macro your way to top level. It's still the case in UO today...you can essentially macro yourself to Grandmaster in most skills. This could be accomplished in short order...which was upsetting to many.
So while it's not the same thing as a WoW-style "gimp with a 70" PL run, it's still a gimp way to make your character powerful without actually playing the game "as intended".
I still think a use-based skill-gain system is overdue.
From what I have seen, power gaming is just as bad, if not worse than in a level based game. At least in a level based game, when you see everyone at the top have the same stats, you know that at least some part of the restrictive process is what kept them from differentiating themselves. In a skill based game, you still have the "best build" problem, and the powergaming can make the entire skill system look sort of ridiculous. It's nearly impossible to prevent this, although it can be delayed. There is probably less powergaming at the start of a skill-based game, before players discover what skills get them through the game the fastest. Once everything has been figured out, it all falls apart like a house of cards.
I sure miss the good old days of tabletop, where you could look forward to leveling up maybe a few times in the life of your character, if you had a dedicated group; and it was all about the experience. Of course your mileage there may vary as well. ("You fall into a pit of darkness." "I jump over the pit." "No, you fell in." "I'm going to kill you!" "You can't you're in a pit." "No, I'm REALLY GOING TO KILL YOU") Lol.
This approach also needs to add a factor which accounts for the skill of the opponent. If you want to get to the top skill levels, you have to take on the top skilled opponents (In a non-cheesy way). And having a non-linear curve so the at the start is it very easy to gain (for the new players!) and gets progressivly harder to get that skill point. One might want to add in a feature for losing points fighting inferior opponents to add some risk for the gankers.
One way to discourage macroing is to make the spells/skills reactive which means offensive skill needs to be used on an active opponent as powerful as you to increase, defensive skills needs to be used on others except yourself to gain a point. But of course it won't really totally stop macroing just makes it more difficult to do so. You can also enforce a skill gain cap per day (like you can only gain +1% skill increase per day of playing). Or you can go the EVE online path where skill points are gained automatically based on real world time without any player interaction.
If it's skill based what does it matter if people power level? (Don't think they even want to do it, maybe just to be "leet"?)
PL is very much human nature. Just look at the huge business of all the leveling guides out there for different MMORPGs.
I think WOW is doing something right when it EMBRACE the concept as opposed to try to fight it. People will do it whether you like it or not. WOW's approach is to put more fun back to grinding. Questing levels faster than just grinding so players are more likely to visit different areas and kill different mobs as opposed just kill th easiest one appropriate for their level.
In a skill-based MMO, if all skills are balanced in some way, why would it matter. (that is, even a new character can have a chance of hurting, even defeating a season veteran once they have an understanding of the skills they pick).
In essence, If a skill-based MMO is designed in a certain way where you do not have a large gaps between players, the power-level isn't a big issue.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
You'll have to pardon that all my refferences are to Guild Wars, but it's the only skill based MMO I've played.
I do honestly think that Guild Wars at least kind of deflates the idea of power leveling mostly because the level cap is 20, and a new player can hit that in a week. I think it also avoids the "Best Build" problem since while there are a few builds better then others, they only remain that way for a short time since through game progression you can quite easily be flung into a new situation where the critters can plow right through your skills template. Sometimes you have to actually get to a much later point in the game to even get a skill in the first place. Make due with what you have to work towards the better stuff.
Having to change your skills up based on situation helps keep things balanced in PvP as well, and leads to less frustration on that front. You're no longer getting beaten by the guy who's only best 'cause he's been playing since beta, but by a team that studied their templates and worked hard to be compliment each other as best as possible. If you threw me into a team, my typical Necromancer build is a Warriors nightmare... doesn't mean a ranger couldn't cap my @$$ in a heartbeat. Would need a different build to deal with the ranger.
All in all, I think the thing that really throws a wrench in powerleveling isn't so much the skill based system, but instead the complications of it. If you had a system that was a race to 100, but you were forced to get EXP through other means then killing and questing, it'd slow it just as much. I know text based RPs where the EXP system is all based on how many votes you receive from other players based on how much you've entertained them with your role playing skills.
~ A Girl Disappearing
~~~~~
"Big surprise... there was no protection by this urban light..."
no it wont prevent pling, cuz people will just train there skills to death...look at tibia for instance if u have the better skills then u win in all situations...yes lvls do matter but there is no way to really prevent pling
Basically, you are saying if their are no progression and achievements...
Well...for me...this mean why even play the game? I play to advance and progress my toon. The bigger the gap, the happier I am. As I have tons of stuff to do and earn.
I like both, class and skills, but in either case, I need an achievement purpose. If everyone is equal and all, why even bother with giving XP? PROGRESSION is why I play MMO, remove the progression, and you just remove my interest to even play the game. All my rants and complains are always linked with progression issues (be it Raiding, PvP, nerfs or anything else)
Maybe it is best if we don't play the same games. I don't see how a dev could please us both, we are, diametrically opposed on everything. Not saying 1 is better than the other, just saying that these 2 points of views cannot be reconcialiated. And many casuals are achievers...otherwise MMOs wouldn't be played. This is why I never even try pre-CU SWG or GW, it has anti-achievements built-in...which are anathema to me.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
MMO wise a normal skill based system would likely be grinded well beyond what you would get in a normal level based MMO.
however there are other ways to have the skill based system set up, either time based, or lesson based. Time based is where you set the skill to train and a timer gets set up when it ticks down you have the skill. Lesson based is where you're able to do anything you consider fun and you'll earn lessons via doing that. you then take those lessons to a player and learn a skill further along with them, or worse case scenrio from a NPC.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Basically, you are saying if their are no progression and achievements...
Well...for me...this mean why even play the game? I play to advance and progress my toon. The bigger the gap, the happier I am. As I have tons of stuff to do and earn.
I like both, class and skills, but in either case, I need an achievement purpose. If everyone is equal and all, why even bother with giving XP? PROGRESSION is why I play MMO, remove the progression, and you just remove my interest to even play the game. All my rants and complains are always linked with progression issues (be it Raiding, PvP, nerfs or anything else)
Maybe it is best if we don't play the same games. I don't see how a dev could please us both, we are, diametrically opposed on everything. Not saying 1 is better than the other, just saying that these 2 points of views cannot be reconcialiated. And many casuals are achievers...otherwise MMOs wouldn't be played. This is why I never even try pre-CU SWG or GW, it has anti-achievements built-in...which are anathema to me.
No, in a well designed skill based system you can have a new player focus on a handfull of skills(a weekend/week/whatever in he can have that handfull maxed). then you have another mechanic setup where you can only use a handful of skills at the same time based on a few mechanics like equipment requirements and focus/mana/energy requirements(I use axeman's fury with my sword doesn't work).so if you are number one on the server in terms of skills earned. you're number one no one is taking those skills away from you. You're still a favored party member since you can set yourself up with more builds than the normal person, still a favored recruit to guilds since you can do more stuff to help, and you can still go through more content since in some cases it'll be impossible for some builds.
PS: there are no MMO's that have what I call a well designed skill system.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I understand your point.
I would definitely try such a system, but...in all honesty, I would most likely quit it after reaching the "best" in 1 field.
I am not an alt-holic, and I don't want to master everything in the game. I want to master a few points and be the best at it, and that is it. Simple guy really.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I like to power level people in my own guild. It adds cohesion to the guild and helps you make friends. Guilds with more cohesion usually win more and stay together longer. Thats why you see the elite guilds on top and the guild hoppers always crying about how they cant get anything.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Ideally, in a skill-based system, each skill is supposed to be a "tool" not part of a "build". It shouldn't matter if players acquire all skills because ideally, what defines your character at that moment is the equipment that you have on your avatar. So if you unlock:
- Swordmanship 100%
- Axe 100%
- Bows 100%
Only one of these skills can be used at a time. So why does it matter if I know Axe, Sword, and Bow? It's not unbalancing at all to have knowledge of all these disciplines
Only EVE Online and FPS games follow the "loadout" paradigm. In both game systems, it is common to be able to unlock all skills on one avatar. And what do you know- they don't seem to suffer this mythical balance issue that I see people keep bringing up
If you want to stop a rat race then you have to look at the cause. You have identified the "pursuit of a carrot" causes this (aka gated content).
The best and easy solution is remove the carrot. Not force players to go through a rat race to acquire skills. Guild Wars solved this better then any game. PVPers can create a max leveled toon. PVE'ers can level up from start to finish
That's one way. Other solutions exist in FPS games. Again, here, earning new skills and earning levels isn't a big deal. I'm Level 21/99 in Lost planet, been that way since launch. Never felt compelled to race to the top. But achievers can race to the top. Battlefield 2142, same thing.
But will PVE types be happy with no carrots? haha, that is the true debate I see on bloggers over the net. I think they enjoy gated content and powergaming to an extent. It helps them really feel unique, walking around in their rare loot they no one else has for pure bragging rights.
Currently, I think Darkfall (that should come out before 2160) is one of the first MMO to jump out of the level based games. SWG wasn't too bad since you could essentially grind a combat tree in 1 week.
Basically, you are saying if their are no progression and achievements...
Well...for me...this mean why even play the game? I play to advance and progress my toon. The bigger the gap, the happier I am. As I have tons of stuff to do and earn.
I like both, class and skills, but in either case, I need an achievement purpose. If everyone is equal and all, why even bother with giving XP? PROGRESSION is why I play MMO, remove the progression, and you just remove my interest to even play the game. All my rants and complains are always linked with progression issues (be it Raiding, PvP, nerfs or anything else)
Maybe it is best if we don't play the same games. I don't see how a dev could please us both, we are, diametrically opposed on everything. Not saying 1 is better than the other, just saying that these 2 points of views cannot be reconcialiated. And many casuals are achievers...otherwise MMOs wouldn't be played. This is why I never even try pre-CU SWG or GW, it has anti-achievements built-in...which are anathema to me.
My Opinion: I measure progression and achievements based on how WELL you the player know of the skills of your character(s), not how high your level is.
By the way, I never said everyone was equal, but due to the fact that there aren't extreme gap, you can have more interactive gameplay between new players and veteran players.
Let's list the reasons behind Power-leveling first, then we can discuss how to eliminate each.
As far as I can see, Power-level exist due to:
1.) Huge caps between players - Players has to be at the equal levels to participate with other players. (Efficiency, Performance in group, etc...)
2.) Major focus on high-end contents - The "fun" starts after max level, hence a need to get past the whole level system in order to enjoy the game...
There should be more reasons behind Power-leveling, but let's deal with these two reasons first.
1.) Huge caps between players
My Solution: a skill-based MMO would not create such gap between players, and players can define their own focus and a new players (low level in the level-based system) can still offer something to the group of veterans (high level in the level-based system). This solves the gap between players, and eliminate the NEED to power-level.
2.) Major focus on high-end contents
My Solution: a skill-based MMO would not design strictly based on a range of levels (5-7, 10 - 19, etc...). But more on the capability of the players (there will always contents for those who are new and those who are a veteran in the game, but these players can always play together when level isn't the limiting factor). So by taking away the level as limiting factor, the design of contents stop focusing on the high-end (end-game) contents, and still provide enough contents for all players.
BTW, how's SWG Pre-CU "anti-achievement"?
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Part of its success is the fact that you can't cast healing spells on yourself, only on others. On yourself you can use a self-heal ability with a minimum cooldown timer of two minutes, which increases by 10 seconds for every additional 100 health/stamina/sap/focus it is configured to heal (Ryzom has customisable actions and spells).
Another part is that it's inefficient to switch equipment in the midst of an activity, due to an equipping delay preventing action for several seconds after you make the switch (more gear being equipped = longer delay).
With medium and heavy armour causing spells to take longer to cast and have shorter range, it is also inefficient to (for example) use magic while wearing armour appropriate to melee.
-----------
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
grrr, I'm so sorry I didnt stick with Ryzom now that's how it should be done