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Does anyone really actually like MMOs?
bstripp
Member Posts: 241
I picked up Pirates of the Burning Sea and have played a fair bit over the past couple of weeks. While I have experienced no show stopping bugs, several people have. True to MMO fashion, the General boards are full of people saying the common MMO complaints:
(1) I'm leaving because X... followed by everyone saying they don't care/do care/can I have your stuff
(2) This game is paid beta
(3) There's no end game content / There's nothing to do whatsoever
(4) X is broken and unbalanced
While this is pretty typical for any game, especially one that just launched, I was thinking on #3 and why this occurs. PotBS seems to be a decent launch and there is a large sandbox appeal to it, for those that are inclined. Additionally there is a huge amount of quests, many very similar, along with a deep crafting system, and loads of PvP and RvR.
So I thought about why we play MMOs in the first place.
Most people won't bother to quest/play much if there is not some kind of reward for doing it. Quests with no reward or decent pay off are considered time sinks. However, isn't that why we are playing an MMO in the first place? MMOs are, by definition, time sinks where we are taking the persona of, in this case, a 1720's sailor.
So when people say that there is nothing to do in a game, are they really saying there is no shiny reward to keep them happy?
This is not a problem only in this game, but in nearly every one that I have played. It seems that every game is a race to get to max level, but for what reason? Isn't the content and quests what you are playing the game for (short of PvP who want max level for competitive balance). If not, why are you playing game X over game Y. Would you be as happy getting an email every day saying that you are more powerful? Would you play a game that didn't have character advancement, but tons of 'content'?
So the question becomes, does anyone really like MMOs? Or are we just Pavlovian Dogs salivating at the next loot drop/level bump?
Comments
You know what, that will get a few people thinking and hoepfully a nice thread going here!
i for one love mmo's but play differently than most. to me it's nothing to do with hitting that max level. i played eq for 7 years and loved every minute of it. but those days were different. you had to grind your way through a level and even a dungeon. take crushbone. at level 7 you could easily hold your own at the zoneline, but to head into the castle you had to earn it by fighting at the zoneline to gain enough levels etc to enter the castle area. these days you srat at the beggining and by the end of the dungeon you have leveled enough to fight the boss at the end....all in the same sitting.
Bring back good old fashioned grind games and let communitys start again
many happy mmo players never visit forums
EQ2 fan sites
Truth.
I never visited the SWG boards until 2005 lol.
Believe me, I have been around enough message boards to see the ever present complaints/praise/etc and filter out what I need.
However, I am more baffled when I considered why we play the game.
There are a lot of people who get bored with content that doesn't give them some kind of reward or bonus. So does the game really matter? How many people read the quest text? I know a ton that do not, they want the loot/xp as fast as they can get it and are bored later when they max out and run out of things to do.
Yet even then there are typically quests for them to do, PvP to accomplish, or other in game explorations. Yet many times those things do not give a reward. So if you are not willing to do something without getting a reward, is that activity really something you enjoy doing? Would you play a rewardless MMO? If so why? If not why?
it doesnt have to be a tangible "item" reward
can be as simple as helping others get a quest done or doing a mmo activity with others
I personally enjoy grouping/questing with others -- and beats playing a standalone RPG
EQ2 fan sites
Great post.
In my opinion, the answer is very simple. It's all about community, and how quickly you're enveloped into it. After all, what is incentive for such paltry 'virtual' rewards if not to engage in some good old fashioned competition and socializing?
It's very clear to me that games which fail to pick up a strong following are also those that fail to quickly engage the gamer with a sense of 'belonging.' We only see this as more prevalent in sandbox MMOs because sandbox style games are generally designed to support community growth and player-content, by their very nature.
Most happy gamers don't go on boards, that's true.
Not saying that I am not happy since I really only play games I like, if I don't like them.. I just go and find another game.
People want to complain and voice their opinions, they want to make the devs suffer for their attempt on making something that they dislike. It's hummm... human nature?
But punching someone in the face won't make him listen to you lol....
Can't like a MMO.
It is love, hatred or indifference.
Like is impossible.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I for one am trying to get away, I played most all. Two weeks ago I was down to my last one on my list of big ones, Dark Age of Camelot and found it to be OK and only did the free trial. Knowing that I would not stay after about day seven I automatically went into what next mode. Should I go back to one of my best D&D Online ? Should I just not play any for a bit and hang around the MMORPG forums and just read and post in Warhammer, AoC,Vanguard, and EQ2 forums until something good comes out ?
Knowing its the middle of Feb and winter is almost over, Warhammer and AoC has everyone crazy and screwing with us on release dates. I had to say to myself what's wrong with me and you people !!!
So what I did was look into off line games, something to get me at least half way from this madness. My first choice was Oblivion its like and off line mmo,I had it in my favorites for a few months. "No" its too much like an mmo. Then I found an RPG called Witcher, its new, have to have a good computer and I have that, so lets do it !
Four days now and I find its the best thing I did in some time, Its deep, you have to rely on crafting potions to stay alive. Fighting monsters are a small part of it. All npc's use voice and the stress is reduced in so many ways AND the best is that I can walk away anytime I feel.
I think I'll have my spring time back !
I'm in that gray area of whether I like them or not. MMO's are great, as a concept. A lot of the features found in different types of MMO's are great, as a concept. I can read a list of game features and backstories and think to myself "this will be awesome!" Then I go out and buy the game, subscribe, and play for about 2 weeks. The "awesomeness" fades away because of the other people in the game. They are able to take those features I was drawn to and rip them apart.
Let's take raiding, as an example. To me this was a great feature. I had never really encountered it until I played WoW, because I didn't know people in real life who played the same MMO"s I played previously. When I played WoW I found that several real life friends also played so I looked forward to raiding with them. My attraction to raiding was based on the idea of networking with others as you did the smaller dungeons, and with your guild. You slowly build up a large group of friends that your playstyle mixes well with. Then once you're ready to hit those raids you have a ready-made group of people you enjoy playing with. Unfortunately, when this goes from idea to application it falls apart. The "race" to be the best and the true competitive colors of people start to shine through. Trying to find a casual raid group who were in it for the fun and not for the race was an exercise in futility.
So, I guess, overall I still play MMO's because I'm still searching for a large fun-loving community to overshadow a smaller "this is serious" community. Plus, my wife prefers that I play MMO's because it's typically a long-term thing. She was getting irritated with the 3 or 4 $50+ offline game purchases a month. One $9 - $15 charge a month makes her much happier when it comes time to balance the checkbook.
Currently Playing: Nothing...I'm developing.
Looking Forward To:
Ofcourse people like MMORPG's. Some people like the social facet of playing an MMORPG and other like the leveling part the most. Some other people like the fact they can craft stuff or the possibility to tweak your armor in the details. If you think noone likes MMORPG's why would there be 9 million people playing WoW, a pay2play game. People just get addicted to MMORPG's after a while.
GreetzZz
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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In my experience there are alot of players that find fighting players more challenging than fighting NPC's or Artificial Intelligence. Very rarely do I play a single player game as If I can't pit my skills against other people I usually lose intrest quickly. MMO is a genre that combines some of the better single player and multi-player elements. It's just a shame so many of them seem to Bomb and that there isn't a single good one out to play atm.
Knights of Darkness
Undefeated in Guild Wars Pre-CU SWG, Corbantis Server
Former Rank 1 Guild CoH/CoV, Pinnacle Server
Former Rank 1 Guild Fury, Hadralas Server
Bstripp, I was just thinking the same thing. In my opinion PotBS has a lot of what a really good MMO should have.
Real Death Penalties; trade and crafting that affect pvp, and pvp that affects trade and crafting. In some respects this is a dream come true MMO (minus the specialized combat style - for some people). Yet not that many are playing it. I think the problem with PotBS being a slow paced strategy game, is it attracts older people (I think 1/3 of the players are over 30). And older people just don’t have time for MMOs.
But look at what people are playing; WoW: easy – no death penalty, big shinny armor and weapons.
I think many people who jump in a MMORPG and start complaining – especially about the “grinding” don’t really belong in a MMORPG, they should be playing a FPS (which can be very fun).
The amount of MMO complainers: The number of people complaining about a MMO game vs. any other types of games is just staggering. One of the big reason for this is you have a concentrated place to complain; in game and in forum. Your typical FPS will have multiple servers and multiple forums.
I can break this down for you on a more Psych level.
MMO gaming mentally comes in stages. First is awe: You enter a world you've never seen and are immersed. The simplest thing is joy, because you've never done it.
Second comes Progression: We begin to uncover the mechanics of the game and set advancement goals for ourselves.
Third is "end game": We set out for max level and are forced to find means to justify playing. The whole game is based on a carrot-on-a-stick mentality, a prize in the distance you want and then achieve. Most people do not just want the IDEAL of the carrot (stats, prestige) they want a visual representation of that carrot (Big glowy sword, massive space cruiser).
Finally: Burnout. The simple joys you found in the "awe" stage are gone because they are not new anymore. You've spent a long time earning your progression stage and fighting internally for the visual carrot. There is no 'end' for you...no closure. The carrot keeps moving further away, because they have to keep adding new carrots to keep you chasing.
We do not hate MMO's. Often times we really just hate ourselves...because in the end the virtual success is functionally meaningless and several of the larger complainers are not finding REAL success outside. Because the virtual success is constantly being pushed further ahead each time a new carrot is added....they cannot find joy from it and all of the past time spent is progression is made useless by it.
The best virtual worlds will be those which mimic real life, but are based around quick, easy fun. Gamers today need something new, and "sandbox" world to find complete visual representation of their goals with simplicity that games such as WoW have to remove the feeling that the game is as much work as real success would be.
so do we actually play for the quest or just the reward , do we like the game or just the shiny stuff at the end? truth is most people play for the shiny trinket, and dont read the quest its are fault and the dev we try to read them at least i do, but they are usually so bad and bland and repetivtive its gets tiresome to re read the same quest 100+ times in the game.
communtity makes and makes game in the end. they ask for x nerf and then get pissy when class y also gets hit. they want certain changes, swg comes to mind and cry and complain when most of what they wanted on the forums is what they got from the devs in the CU. but a good community which is coming harder and harder to find can actually make a game likable beyond its gear.
I enjoy playing MMOs, although I came to them much later in life then many people. MMOs are nice because they allow me and my wife to play a game together, even when I am away on business. There are few multiplayer games out there that are not sports related. Moreover, many MMOs allow people to partake different aspects of the game ie. crafting, gathering, and being a part of an inline community.
Inherently though there is a major draw back in all MMOs. There are so many people out there that use the internet to act in ways that would get there heads beat in if they were not in their mom’s basement. All together there are many people in MMOs who take the opportunity to ruin everyone’s fun because they themselves do not have any fun.
MMOs are supposed to be fun. All games are made for enjoyment. I enjoy MMOs and would enjoy them even more if people would view them as games and have a modicum of integrity.
So yes I enjoy MMOs, I just do not always enjoy the company I encounter while playing. I guess that is my dilemma.
--John Ruskin
What bothers me is the last three letters have completely dropped off and they're being called MMOs now. What happened to the RPG aspect? What's the point of being an elf/dwarf/wizard yadda yadda when they all (if you're lucky) talk in the same "Yeah, it's over there by the griffon tower. Just send me a /tell if you are LFG and I'll come along if you can find DPS and healer. AFK for a while," type of talk.
We talk about immersion and complain about being griefed by the high elf "noobpwnageroxzors" but I get just as annoyed by the dwarf "Ronald McDonald" who talks in all abbreviations.
Interresting post, and one of the first I'm actually replying to on the mmorpg boards. I think you have a valid point there and I see a reflection on myself when I think of the reasons why I play an MMO:
I want to be able to show off to other people what I accomplished in that game and I want to have fun with other people while playing the game. The only problem is, the fun I get from games is the story that goes behind the game. And in MMOs the story is almost always killed by the fact that the gameworld can't change because other people who visit later want to see the exact same world I saw.
Solution, a Guild Wars instance based game? No definatly not, I could play single players games if that is what I was looking for. I want to be able to find other players fighting against the bad guys and possibly help them doing so.
So the solution for me to actually enjoy a MMO would be one where the world constantly changes, no quest is ever the same and things develop like they would in a good storydriven singleplayer game. But allas, we all know that will never happen, at least not in the next ten years.
A good test for this question for everyone is how many MMOs that are out there right now do you actually like and play (given time)? And not used to like, or well it was fun back in the day before change X. But how many do you like right now?
I can think of 3 that I would play, but do to time constraints I pick one. And a few MUDs. I’m also playing a few FPSs and strategy games.
So I can say, yes I like MMOs
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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I seriosuly cannot understand why people play a game to rush (yes rush, skip school, call in from work just to grind) to the max level and then complain about being bored.. It totally deafeats the idea of a timesink. But for some odd reason people shout their max level characters in-game and bolster like it makes them a "better" gamer than everyone else.. Example "Yeah I have 5 lvl 70's in WoW"...
Is that all we are after? Do they really think that makes them look or seem any more "powerful" or "better" than anyone else? lol, are we in the age of even CARING about how many max level alts someone else plays?
But it ruins a game when someone blitzes to max level "just cause" and then starts flaming the game about "end game" content... And this is also why an "expansion" usually only means more items and level cap raise.. This is why we hardly EVER get QUALITY expansions to games anymore.. More like item packs... True expansions whould actually EXPAND upon the game in every way possible, skills, factions, features etc.. Something like the EQ2 Echoes of Faydwer expansion... check, instead of ading level cap increases, they sought out ways for you to further PERSONALIZE and make your character unique in the WAY of advancement.. Gave you something to work towards that WASNT a level or item BUT it made you a stronger more UNIQUE character.. Thats what I cal a great feature for an MMO expansion..
This level stuff is just a generic way to meausre "effectiveness" vs. Mobs x,y,and z...
Imo a large part of the problem is lack of correct classification of mmo's. There are so many games and so many gamers that mistakes on preference when making a purchase is always going to happen, expectations therefor are making people see things from an unrealistic or offset perspective..
For instance, if we take the OP example of PotBS, this game it appears to me was never conceived with a true grind in mind. It seems more like you had a leveling period to cap which was reasonably short, in which time you learnt the game and fleshed out your character. At cap you then played the game for what it was (wether you think that the game at cap is good or bad is irrelavent for the example).
Take this style of game and then have a player straight from EQ, WoW or Lineage etc, they will look on this mechanic as, a half assed, barely finished game with lack of an end game entirely. It would seem as they continually point out on the forums that it is still in beta.
A true, good sandbox doesn't just come into being it must be designed as such from the outset, which is why imo sandbox and levels just don't mix. People expect certain gameplay from level based games, those levels have purpose, when they end all too soon the game itself (for those style of players) ends also and rightly causes bitterness.
This of course is only one example but imo I think the problem is always the same expectation of players being let down due to bad advertising, no rules of game styles (every game claiming to be everything and every style to be as broadly appealing as poss).
For me personally I have played most mmo's but I have played planetside since beta and still do and will continue to do so until another mmofps comes out. Don't get me started on the crap classification other mmos have boasted themselves as fps 'style', there is no fps 'style' ITS EITHER FPS OR IT AINT FFS!!!
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
heh I went back to Everquest and I randomly pointed out in amusement one of the key features of x or y expansion was simply 'THE LOOT IS BETTER11!!!'. I wonder to an extent whether since I'd been so long away whether since all this item craze that used to be existance had gone, that the reason I felt no longer compelled to play was because of this fact. Is it? Quite possibly yes. But, I'd say there were other aspects of enjoyment- for instance, having enjoyable classes that were a joy to learn and explore, and grouping. (though whether I'd grouped without this little carrot called xp I don't know)
Anyway, interesting point. Incidentally, you could pose the same question to fps'- do people chase the simple pleasures of frags? or out of real pleasure for the game?