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PvP delusion
paulscott
Member Posts: 5,613
It's NOT just bashing in heads in a real PvP game. There are other things such as controling a market, controling politics, even controlling how the NPC's react to different people. As a matter of fact you can tell right off the bat whether a MMO has good player vs. player or bad player vs player. Depending on whether the non-bashing-player-interaction matters a lot more than or is such a small part of the game that it doesn't.
This is also a large reason why people want a good player controled world, it's just a shame that so many just want open PvP because MMO players want to live through the RPG aspect in that if you don't know someone they aren't going to just lay a dagger in your spine(don't say you're a thief/brigand/whatever it's such a simple role that we have NPC's for that).
Thank you for your time hopefully this will gleam a bit of understanding why shooters aren't good enough for what seems to be a small number of what's considered to be the 'hardcore PvP fanbase'.
If you consider the defining aspect of what you want in a MMO to be hardcore PvP please play a FPS, what's considered hardcore should be a byproduct of the design. Not something that you demand a game be designed around, as it won't work.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Comments
I don't understand all these lengthy blogs, articles, and posts about how to fix PvP and MMO's today. (You know, the ones that suck...which every new one does).
Here's the solution. Copy Ultima Online and DAoC. Problem solved.
Too bad developers are huge noobs now-a-days.
Edit: Not calling the OP's post lengthy, just mentioning that there are a lot of them
Personally, I have like either open PvP or at least an area for PvP. I especially like it if there's different places for different levels, then there will not be nearly as much ganking. I believe that if they can do this, then more games will have a better PvP.
But I find that without PvP, there is really no reason to train your skills up or gain combat at all. Without PvP, I just don't see a point to train my combat level higher than others. I mean sure there's role-playing, but games these days are starting to make games that are beginning to revolve around PvP.
~mike470~
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Eve Online does it best. Ruthless, but massively rewarding of cooperation and the imposition of order.
It would be sort of interesting to see a fantasy mmo designed more along the EVE model, might be surprised how much it would appeal to many folks.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I can find myself agreeing with you paulscott; I've always found pure PKing for the heck of it bland if it's the only form of PvP available, even en mass. Market supremacy and policies, land ownership and politics, now that's where real power is derived from. But I can't agree with the rogue/brigand example; I've roleplayed rogues in most games and never acted that way. Sure I've PKed people, but I don't go out killing everyone, without knowing what I might get after me. Even rogues have rules and standards.
I don't understand the fixation on PvP.
Many juts want good cooperative PvE games.
PvP is difficult to do well. Eve Online is probably the best. UO is a pk-fest and it wisely turned to PvE quickly.
yes EvE does do the whole works extremely well, so well infact that you feel like the 5th trader/footman/capsuleer on the right. not a whole lot of fun there especially when the genre has game right in the title.
as for playing the rogue or brigand, I'll hold my views on it. It seems that a overwhelming percent of people want to be that rogue/brigand/outcast/whatever. Just seems silly to get into a genre that has the ability to be social, then decide to lock yourself out of it.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Lucky one game is in developement Darkfall:).
Most hardcore will prolly gonne play it, when its released we finally have our own game:).
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
This all assumes of course that Darkfall comes out
Personally tho i love how EvE does it, To start with its worth mentioning EvE's developers used to be a PvP clan in UO and when they designed EvE they wanted to capture there days in classic UO with a twist of there own.
Now i never played UO and i suspect its my loss but the way PvP is in EvE is really good. To begin with PvP isn't a add on or afterthought to the main game, it is in fact THE GAME. Unlike most MMO's EvE was designed with PvP in mind from the beginning. And this shows in how PvP fits right in with the realistic in-game market and Crafting system which is just as important as the PvP as those ships and weapons etc are capable of being completely destroyed so someone has to make replacements.
So as a whole im happy for how EvE has done things.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
darkfall's maps will be like that near the capital cities. after that the map is A) too large for dedicated ganking
will be owned much like 0.0 in EvE when you look at the implications of ganking (and whoever owns it won't like you).
but meh I'm defending a game that isn't out yet
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
The worst delusion PvP has, they think it can be appealing for every player.
But a huge part of the players, they want nothing negative with other players. No hinderance, no pain, no hurtfeeling, just a plain fun and pink world.
The next step of this delusion is to think that peoples who want PvP to have no negative impact whatsoever, they are just a minority. I don't know how you define a majority or a minority, but Jumpgate and WoW are saying it is 1 player on 2...even if it would be 20%, this is a LOT of players. Making sure they either have a server, a race, a setting, where they can excell and developp all they want (missing no reward whatsoever, even if only on 1 server and can't meet peoples who earn it the hard way, anyway, don't want to meet these players, we want peoples who are nice), is definitely VERY important.
Any serious company out there should understand by now, that having a 100% PvE server (rewards-wise), is not an option, but an obligation, business-wise. You can't afford to lose what Jumpgate and WoW qualify as half the player-base, not when it is that simple to get them playing on 1 server.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
even the pure PvE endgame is PvP. seriously look at the bragging of being the first guild to clearing an instance, competition of getting into a top tier raiding guild, the social implications of having top tier gear. What drives PvE in so many cases is being a low number, maybe even one.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Whats more carebear? Ganking or griefing?
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Griefing is clearly more carebear since it happens 100% by choice, and has no purpose other than to destroy someone's gameplay.
Ganking, well thats just getting a whole bunch of people on one. Therefore many situations where there's no malice intended at all, it's even sad sometimes(sorry newbie there's no way we can tell if you're an alt or a real newbie).
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
For a tiny minority which are RAIDERS, maybe. However, the core PvE players want to be free from raiding and from PvP.
What matter is the journey, if my journey cross PvP or Raiding at any point on my progression path, then the game is trash. As simple as that. I don't want any player to hinder my progression, PvP is not an option, and neither is raiding. On day 1 I progress soloing/grouping, I don't want that to change ever, I want that to be the case all the way until till the end.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Griefing and Ganking are not care bear.
They both resolve around PvPers. If a Care Bear does either, it is merely vengeance and retalition for a wrongdoing. A Care Bear wants NOTHING of these 2, and if he does so for any reason, that player is extremely unhappy and angry, because of an incredibly flawed design. The first offender, is always a PvPer, the Care Bear was gently and quietly minding his own business before that PvPer comes and ruins his gaming experience. Retaliation is a normal process for every human beeing...even for a Care Bear. Your fellow PvPers will indulge in griefing and ganking a lot more than any care bear, as they don't wait for it to be retaliation.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
they both are pretty safe, so I fail to see how they aren't carebear. (it's typically an insult for those that refuse to take risks)
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
What is a Care Bear to you?
For me, it is someone who:
- Play peacefully.
- Help others.
- Never engage in combat first. (unless it is to help someone who has been attacked)
- Helps others.
Sound to me that you are thinking about Vultures or something. If you want to insult a PvPers by throwing him a PvE name, sure...but don't change the definition of the PvE name based on the persons you insults. Or, you will hurt the real Care Bears.
A Care Bear is extremely unlikely to even play your PvP games. I suppose you miss them and then try to give the name to anyone who is softer than you? :P A Vulture is softer than a Predator, but it isn't a care bear for real...althought I can see a predator insulting the vulture by considering it a care bear.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I guess I'm a carebear(by your definement) that likes player controlled worlds, and finds amusement in the required PvP mechanics for them.
to me a carebear is someone who refuses to take a gamble* on the time they've played. nice and simple, no reason to define things in extremely elaborate terms when you can get to the core meaning.
*to you that would be risk, but as far as I care there's no such thing as risk in a game.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Consentual...as in no better rewards. As in, you get all the l33t in grouping.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Or maybe all the rewards are equal... including solo rewards, although naturally they would take considerably longer to attain.
What people REALLY want is the option to switch between forms of gameplay at will. I don't want circumstance to determine what I HAVE to do today. If my friends are not on, I can solo... similarly, if some are on but not enough for a raid, we can group and do a dungeon, and the rewards should be comparable. Raiding would yield rewards the fastest, because of how difficult they are to set up, but the rewards should be the same, so we don't feel like we're getting ripped off if we're forced to pass up raiding content.
Quality has been used as a carrot for far too long... devs need to take time and difficulty into consideration as well, and stop trying to pigeon-hole their players.
LOL WILL YOU STFU!!!
man you are the biggest carebear I've ever SEEN!!!!!
anyone who plays WoW PVP is a carebear because its the lamest pvp, even the biggest NOOB can defeat you because it takes NO SKILL!!!!
You want EVERY MMORPG to be like world of warcraft??? not everyone is a noob carebear like yourself kid, GG though
I may play world of warcraft, and all I do is pvp, and it is far TOO easy to kill everyone, its not based off of skill, and if you're intelligent you would realize that, its based off of your items, and your character, theres little, if any human talent/twitch involved in victory, which is really pathetic, and I admit, I am a carebear for playing world of warcraft, so why do i play it? because I get to own other carebears like yourself, and talk sh!t about how much of a noob carebear I am myself, but because I have some of the best items in the game, I win
Optimal path and fastest should always, always, always be grouping. It is the gameplay peoples want and play the game for. If any gameplay crash with grouping, favor grouping, always, always, always. Solo could be fine tuned to be a competitive alternative even if a little slower. Raiding should not be linked with the reward whatsoever, so raiding should be long, as in VERY long. It could open raid content and this content is the reward, not the items, because the items, they all belong to groupers. (unless it has + vs raid mob stats which are useless in groups)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Think I hear your mother calling you for a nap