2.4 is now on testservers. Actually its not a test. Its a pile of things that havn't been worked on at all. Already a total of 4 players from my guild have now left the game cause of huge unbalancing issues that are coming up, both in terms of abilites and items. Class balanced is beeing tossed around from one day to another - making changes to piss ppl off - just the next day to change something else that makes ppl even more pissed. This is not what any game developer should do. There is now 3 years since WOW came out and you would have thought if they had learned SOMETHING is that you dont PLAY around with class balance. That is a capital offence in a MMO game. Im discussed to see the total lack of respect that Blizzard has shown to their players. It doesn't matter if you get 1 person offended or 10 million. You always fail if you dont carry full respect to every single one. Yet alone whole class or whole spec. To me this is a new low in history of MMOs. The biggest Game developer of mmos desides to play around with class balance from day to day. No thx
Stop whining! Wait until they shovel a NGE in your ass. As they did with SWG. Then you can talk about developers not learning.
Well - Like I have stated before. Class balance is nothing anyone should play with from day to day. If you want to get the class balance right then you test it on INTERNAL servers and throw the changed on to PUPLIC TESTSEVERS as a PACKAGE to let the users test it for 3-4 weeks. If something needs more tweaking you do so THEN but no by changing stats day 1, day 2, day 3 day 4. Why ? Because then you get absolut ZERO testresults.
I find it quite funny that MMORPG,COM forums are probably one of the less mature ones found. Thats the one most single scare I have about AOC. Maturity is not messured in age. Thats for sure.
If my opinion contradicts your opinion then I'm immature.
You can't say the changes on the test server are going in and you can't say they aren't. But you definatly can't say Blizzard hasn't nerfed a class in the past. You can't even say Blizzard has a good track record of
not making Class A not suck even with class balancing.
Expect class nerfs in AoC thats a downfall of class based MMOs. There isn't a single class based MMO that doesn't do this class balance thing throughout the life of the game.
Originally posted by Alan0n Well - Like I have stated before. Class balance is nothing anyone should play with from day to day. If you want to get the class balance right then you test it on INTERNAL servers and throw the changed on to PUPLIC TESTSEVERS as a PACKAGE to let the users test it for 3-4 weeks. If something needs more tweaking you do so THEN but no by changing stats day 1, day 2, day 3 day 4. Why ? Because then you get absolut ZERO testresults.
Hmmm, so you know what the developers can see from day to day do you? I would think myself that they, as the developers and testers would probably know a little more about the game mechanics than you do and as has been pointed out many times in this thread, this is a 'TEST' server and as such they are pretty well free to do whatever they like whenever they like! Just because 'you' haven't had your time to 'play' with their changes does not mean that they haven't got the data they need, as believe it or not, you and your friends are not the only people in there!
I would be interested to know how much feedback you have sent to the developers in regard to the changes that they have made?? How many feedback/test forms have you filled in since starting this "testing"??
As far as class balance is concerned, Blizzard have changed it in one way or another in pretty much every patch they have released in the past three years and i wouldn't have expected this one to be any different. The main thing to remember is that it is being played around with on a test server and not been released as a full patch. Finally, for people to quit the game on the strength of changes that may not even happen is just crazy! If you are not prepared to keep an open mind when using the test servers, then don't use them, simple as that really!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Class balanced is beeing tossed around from one day to another - making changes to piss ppl off - just the next day to change something else that makes ppl even more pissed.
Welcome to the world of a TEST SERVER. Believe it or not, it is there for TESTING, not to make you happy immediately. If developers don't play with the balancing on the TEST SERVER, then people bitch and leave when the unbalanced mess is dropped on the live servers. Or are you one of those worthless "testers" who live on the TEST SERVER like it was their own personal live server, instead of being there to actually TEST the damn content?
If my opinion contradicts your opinion then I'm immature. You can't say the changes on the test server are going in and you can't say they aren't. But you definatly can't say Blizzard hasn't nerfed a class in the past. You can't even say Blizzard has a good track record of
not making Class A not suck even with class balancing. Expect class nerfs in AoC thats a downfall of class based MMOs. There isn't a single class based MMO that doesn't do this class balance thing throughout the life of the game.
My point with this topic is not to protest the need for class balance. It is the way that its done in this l8test test. Class balance is not something you play with on day to day basis. Not even on test servers. The basics behind Class balance is u do it gradually - but that does not mean you do one thing one day and another the next and then test it for one day. That is something you do on internal servers. And when you come up with a decent balancing theory you test it on public servers for certain amount of time to see how it will affect the game.
Class balance in terms of raids for example can not be tested on day to day basis. It is a long term progress - just like everything else in terms of raiding. My guild has killed Illidan - Don't take it as I dont know what Im talking about. The future of our guild has now been compromised, since alot of members are very offended in the way Blizzard are handling key features of class and spec balance. Day to day changes is not anacceptable way to handle class balance after 3 years of gameplay.
Class balanced is beeing tossed around from one day to another - making changes to piss ppl off - just the next day to change something else that makes ppl even more pissed.
Welcome to the world of a TEST SERVER. Believe it or not, it is there for TESTING, not to make you happy immediately. If developers don't play with the balancing on the TEST SERVER, then people bitch and leave when the unbalanced mess is dropped on the live servers. Or are you one of those worthless "testers" who live on the TEST SERVER like it was their own personal live server, instead of being there to actually TEST the damn content?
Did I mention the key words are TEST SERVER?
Again - there are things u test on internal test servers and public test servers. If current class balancing issues have passed the internal test servers then its very worrying yes.
And I do know what Test servers mean. I've been working on private internal test servers for over 3 years now. Not in WoW tho.
If my opinion contradicts your opinion then I'm immature. You can't say the changes on the test server are going in and you can't say they aren't. But you definatly can't say Blizzard hasn't nerfed a class in the past. You can't even say Blizzard has a good track record of
not making Class A not suck even with class balancing. Expect class nerfs in AoC thats a downfall of class based MMOs. There isn't a single class based MMO that doesn't do this class balance thing throughout the life of the game.
My point with this topic is not to protest the need for class balance. It is the way that its done in this l8test test. Class balance is not something you play with on day to day basis. Not even on test servers. The basics behind Class balance is u do it gradually - but that does not mean you do one thing one day and another the next and then test it for one day. That is something you do on internal servers. And when you come up with a decent balancing theory you test it on public servers for certain amount of time to see how it will affect the game.
Class balance in terms of raids for example can not be tested on day to day basis. It is a long term progress - just like everything else in terms of raiding. My guild has killed Illidan - Don't take it as I dont know what Im talking about. The future of our guild has now been compromised, since alot of members are very offended in the way Blizzard are handling key features of class and spec balance. Day to day changes is not anacceptable way to handle class balance after 3 years of gameplay.
And yes - That is a new low in history of MMOs.
Just for fun, please list all the games you have developed content for, so that we may see where this all-knowing wisdom on the right way to test a game comes from?
If my opinion contradicts your opinion then I'm immature. You can't say the changes on the test server are going in and you can't say they aren't. But you definatly can't say Blizzard hasn't nerfed a class in the past. You can't even say Blizzard has a good track record of
not making Class A not suck even with class balancing. Expect class nerfs in AoC thats a downfall of class based MMOs. There isn't a single class based MMO that doesn't do this class balance thing throughout the life of the game.
My point with this topic is not to protest the need for class balance. It is the way that its done in this l8test test. Class balance is not something you play with on day to day basis. Not even on test servers. The basics behind Class balance is u do it gradually - but that does not mean you do one thing one day and another the next and then test it for one day. That is something you do on internal servers. And when you come up with a decent balancing theory you test it on public servers for certain amount of time to see how it will affect the game.
Class balance in terms of raids for example can not be tested on day to day basis. It is a long term progress - just like everything else in terms of raiding. My guild has killed Illidan - Don't take it as I dont know what Im talking about. The future of our guild has now been compromised, since alot of members are very offended in the way Blizzard are handling key features of class and spec balance. Day to day changes is not anacceptable way to handle class balance after 3 years of gameplay.
And yes - That is a new low in history of MMOs.
Just for fun, please list all the games you have developed content for, so that we may see where this all-knowing wisdom on the right way to test a game comes from?
Sure - I have been in class balance team of the following games
- DAOC
- AOC
I worked for CCP for 2 years as a programmmer (makers of Eve online) Im 36 years old and Im from Iceland witch maybe explains my bad english abit. Im not gonna bother asking my m8s from CCP confirm who I am cause you will just keep on flaming.
You guys are welcome to keep on flaming all you like. It still doesn't change that this method of TESTING and changing class balance is NOT what any MMO devs should be putting out for the public.
OP you have no understanding of game balance, testing phases or what so ever.....
please do us all the favor and quit the game, one less idiot in it, if you do not understand the fact that the PTR is being used to TEST things, then you should never set your foot inside, give a valid feedback to blizzard why it wouldn't be working on live and if they have enough feedback about one idea not being so good they will prolly remove it or change it.
Also note this 2.4 PTR will be running for a looong time, because it has alot of content, alot of class changes, alot of pretty much anything, so it will stay there for long, blizzard want to try out some things along the way, it's how we have gotten some nice changes over the past years through afterall, they try to think out of the box sometimes and try things out on the test realms if they get alot of good feedbacks it's all good for everyone.
Your whine here is pointless......
I hope you and your 4 guildmates have fun being retards.
Great succes!
When players start to talk about retards it says pretty much everything needed to say about the purpose of them posting.
Im not calling BLizzard retards. Im talking about new low.
It is unfortunate to know that a few players have left just by seeing bigger changes done for experimentation in a test server. I highly doubt that Activision Blizzard is making these test changes to purposely aggravate their customers.
Was this the first time your guild has completed all up-to-date raids and decided to spend time preparing for upcoming content? In the past, I remember a couple times when a guild puts effort in test servers where members felt uncomfortable with possible in-game changes afterwards. In most of these cases, the players quickly accepted the testing situation, and I have never heard of players taking offence to this extent.
In my opinion, development teams playing with class balance from day to day in a test server is not a new low - many MMOs before have done so during testing. For me, big changes are often entertaining to experience for testing fun; they often leave me wondering whether or not it's just a the development team making an adjustment mistake or if it's indeed which way the game is heading. Afterwards, it is either "Oh thank God!" or "Wow, I must start planning for this!" - I wouldn't want to play a class the same way forever anyways.
If what you say is true, and I am not claiming it isn't, then this would indicate you are an educated person. I'll even go one step further to say that the progession of your english, typing, grammer, and overall tone of your postings which have gone from 12 year old, to adult during the course of this thread is also something to "applaud" yet is also quite odd. However, one quick question for you based in logic.
You're arguement is based on your opinion on how testing should be done and how "this method of testing and changing class balance is not what any MMO devs shoul dbe putting out for the public" is based upon your experiences with the games you have been in on in a devolper/tester capacity. How many of those games have:
A) The initial success of WoW?
The continued success of WoW?
C) At least 1/3rd the player base of WoW?
Maybe the fact that Blizzard, by NOT doing things the way "everyone else" does it, is finding unprecedented success with WoW. Just a thought.
Originally posted by mxmissile QQ you will still play and you will still pay
I quit WoW forever ago because of trash like this. The constant echoes of "QQ mor nubsaucez0rz lololol grind teh epix mor" became too much for me. I have no desire to play with these people.
They have changed the way test server is rolled out. They are putting you guys to work and it sounds like if you play on the test server your input will be listened to. Gone are the days when test center was a polished patch preview of things to come.
Explain to them what you don't like about each change and why you think the change is a mistake. Be constructive and detailed. If enough of you are saying the same thing then I am sure they will change it.
If you don't like them putting you to work on the test realm then roll a new toon on a regular realm or just quit, it is your right.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
How did this guy get invited into AOC General Beta and I didn't. (If he really is)
/sigh
Anyway... bookmarked. Thanks for the great laugh OP. You truly have no concept of game development & keep ignoring the posts that explain your misunderstandings.
Awesome. Keep up the good work.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I would have to agree that public test servers are not the place a development team should make direct changes in.
I do not know the testing model Blizzard has but I also think it is illogical to throw out half a change in a public test server.
In a normal testing environment you would use public testing as the final testing phase before going live.
Why blizzard did this may be something as simple as a mistake.
I can honestly say I have released code I did not intend to.
As a result, how can you except to get a balanced testing review from your customers if you release an unbalanced change?
What gets me about this thread is I can not believe how some of posters condemned the OP for their first comment because they did not give you FACTS and when they did you shrugged them off and continued with personal attacks.
It was clear to me that the OP has been keeping some very concise statistics on the mechanics of the game.
to the OP for keeping stats on the changes. Tell the developers of what you find.
Ok, so I don't prefer to provide a response from myself on forums like this, however I just felt obligated.
Before you ask, no, I didn't just create this to flame, I actually decided to not be lazy and make an account when I saw this post. I've actually been coming to this site for quite a while.
To the OP:
Your idea behind the "proper" way to implement character balancing and testing really doesn't matter, nor does your opinion. Why, you may ask? Well lets take a look at the basics here.
(1)WOW is a leader in the MMO industry (Hated or Loved, that's what they are at this point in time)
(2)WOW has managed to create a game that many people love (Including myself) for the simple fact that it's a game you can get into fairly easily if you need a break from the 'hardcore' style of the usual MMO grind-fest.
(3)WOW has also managed to maintain their numbers, and this patch isn't going to affect that
(4)WOW, unlike many MMOs, actually take their community into consideration when making decisions
Just because you, and your guild don't approve of "How" they are implementing their testing or what they are looking to do with the next patch and the class system, you need to understand that it's NOT final. If you really feel this strongly, perhaps, oh I don't know, use the Test Servers to your advantage. Get on there, work with what they have provided you, and supply (Here comes the straw that broke the camel's back) feedback. That is what these "Test Servers" are meant for.
You can't sit there, and tell me, with a straight face, you believe they are going to nerf the hell out of everything and just push it to live. If so, you're seriously smoking something and should go think about what you've failed to accomplish here with your post. Your post is nothing but snippets of crying and complaints for no real good reason.
Best game ever played (Anarchy-Online - 4yrs of Service) ---------------- Have Played: FFXI, SWG, EQ2, L2, GW, CoH/X, Vanguard, WoW, LOTRO, MxO, AoC ---------------- Currently Playing: WAR (Wurtbad Server) Chaos - Mourtok (Maurader) // Alissua (DoK)
Ok, so I don't prefer to provide a response from myself on forums like this, however I just felt obligated. Before you ask, no, I didn't just create this to flame, I actually decided to not be lazy and make an account when I saw this post. I've actually been coming to this site for quite a while.
To the OP: Your idea behind the "proper" way to implement character balancing and testing really doesn't matter, nor does your opinion. Why, you may ask? Well lets take a look at the basics here. (1)WOW is a leader in the MMO industry (Hated or Loved, that's what they are at this point in time) (2)WOW has managed to create a game that many people love (Including myself) for the simple fact that it's a game you can get into fairly easily if you need a break from the 'hardcore' style of the usual MMO grind-fest. (3)WOW has also managed to maintain their numbers, and this patch isn't going to affect that (4)WOW, unlike many MMOs, actually take their community into consideration when making decisions Just because you, and your guild don't approve of "How" they are implementing their testing or what they are looking to do with the next patch and the class system, you need to understand that it's NOT final. If you really feel this strongly, perhaps, oh I don't know, use the Test Servers to your advantage. Get on there, work with what they have provided you, and supply (Here comes the straw that broke the camel's back) feedback. That is what these "Test Servers" are meant for. You can't sit there, and tell me, with a straight face, you believe they are going to nerf the hell out of everything and just push it to live. If so, you're seriously smoking something and should go think about what you've failed to accomplish here with your post. Your post is nothing but snippets of crying and complaints for no real good reason.
And once again - this has nothing to do with beta in terms of general gameplay - This has to do with CHANGES of class balance on day to day basis that is not acceptable in ANY MMORGP game - be that on test server or anywhere else. This is balance in terms of basic abilites beeing changed and in terms of items that are put into the game.
Now - If you think anyone in my guild is leaving cause of hard bosses in sunwell... that kinda says it all how much u know about test servers. You know that devs start the bosses up on about 50-75% of what they think is ideal for a challenge? That way they can get fast info on bugs and stats on all raid bosses. You do know this right ? If not then plz dont give me lectures about how leaders of any game should or should not behave in terms of showing respect to their custimors.
There is a big diffrence taking the community into consideration and providing a balanced gameplay. No game developer can EVER base their class balance changes on what the players want. If you still think so then maybe you should listen to all the Druids that still feel its perfectly fine to have no CD on cyclone and no interuptions available.
Or are we gonna make it a whining contest on each forums and change the balance acording to that ? Seriously ? If Bizzard can not stand in both feets regarding class balance in this game then it SHOWS that WOW is not build on strong basic consepts to keep on going. And Its obvious that basic formulas in terms of class balance have failed when calculating the class changes in 2.4. You know that every class is build around certain basic general forumals to make up real numbers when it comes to balance ? Dont you ? Or you think its just devs going ..."ahh lets put hmmm 52! here" !!!. Basic formulas like the spirit/int compered to mp5 have failed. Its obvious for all to see. That is not the stats that are changed tho to create balance - Your welcome to go on to the test servers and see innervate do 7.5 k mana per 5 if you think something needs to be reported. That is not something to take seriously if a game dev can't see basics like that go wrong ? Seriously?
And if Blizzard EVER needed to stand their ground it is NOW - since they are balancing two diffrent aspects in the game for the first time ever. PVE content for 5 - 25 man teams AND PVP for 2 - 5 man teams. THis will NOT be done by changing stats on day to day basis.
And yes - again - this is a new low. Be that from the biggest but its still new low.
A new low in mmo history? Get real. Star Wars Galaxies went from turn based to fps hybrid and deleted more professions than they kept. Then they got rid of the skill point system and went level based.
If they did this to WOW you would have an fps with two professions and people crying to merge servers because the vast majority of players jumped ship.
It's funny that you continually state, "Not acceptable in ANY MMORGP game". Ok, so we get your point, you're butthurt because they are wanting to work with their system, if it be "day to day", so be it. The fact you're getting so worked up over something that isn't final, that is in Test means jack-all. These guys, Blizzard, have come a long way since launch and have put down a pretty good game. Which makes me believe in their decisions in what they have planned for the game and its future. Each patch they've released has not impacted the game in any negative way. Now, yes, there will be those who get upset over little changes here and their made to the characters they play. The majority do, however, get over it.
The way they handle the testing, is how they will handle it. Nice thing about it though, is you have a choice to leave or you can make your voice be heard. I suggest you spend your time in the Test Server, providing that feed back. Have many of your guild mates, friends, whoever do the same. My past experiences with Blizzard have been positive with a good amount pressure from the actual community if they don't like something.
So, instead of coming here to these boards to make a post about something you don't approve of, which is really just wasting your time. Also, from what I can tell, annoying those who really just don't care about stupid little complaints such as these, go do something about it.
Best game ever played (Anarchy-Online - 4yrs of Service) ---------------- Have Played: FFXI, SWG, EQ2, L2, GW, CoH/X, Vanguard, WoW, LOTRO, MxO, AoC ---------------- Currently Playing: WAR (Wurtbad Server) Chaos - Mourtok (Maurader) // Alissua (DoK)
Blizzard have already been told what I feel about this. I think more than just me have told them that.
I have a choise to pay for a product or not. I desided not to pay for it based on this. I have a choise to do so - but I also have the right to point out why I made that choise. If Blizzard cares ... Probaby not. But maybe they will learn from this. If not then just be ready for more of the same.
I have already made numerous examples here what I mean - Why did ret paladid season 1 and 2 items not have res from the start ? Because Blizzard was testing someting out ? Or they added it when all the ret paladins went mad on the forums ?
Beeing the biggest doesn't make you right all the time. Then we would still be playing UO
Originally posted by Alan0n If Bizzard can not stand in both feets regarding class balance in this game then it SHOWS that WOW is not build on strong basic consepts to keep on going. And Its obvious that basic formulas in terms of class balance have failed when calculating the class changes in 2.4. You know that every class is build around certain basic general forumals to make up real numbers when it comes to balance ? Dont you ? Or you think its just devs going ..."ahh lets put hmmm 52! here" !!!. Basic formulas like the spirit/int compered to mp5 have failed. Its obvious for all to see. That is not the stats that are changed tho to create balance - Your welcome to go on to the test servers and see innervate do 7.5 k mana per 5 if you think something needs to be reported. That is not something to take seriously if a game dev can't see basics like that go wrong ? Seriously? And if Blizzard EVER needed to stand their ground it is NOW - since they are balancing two diffrent aspects in the game for the first time ever. PVE content for 5 - 25 man teams AND PVP for 2 - 5 man teams. THis will NOT be done by changing stats on day to day basis. And yes - again - this is a new low. Be that from the biggest but its still new low.
This point is just becoming tired and boring to be honest!!
Have any of these changes been implemented live? - NO!
Have Blizzard said that any of these changes will be implemented? - NO!
Do you know exactly what Blizzard is looking at from a test point of view when they make these changes? - NO!
As far as testing is concerned, as long as you have an eye on a specific target and a set of particular test scripts that fit a particular perameter you could change the stats every freakin hour if you choose as long as you are collecting the data that you require to satisfy your aim!
Testing methods are not rigid, they have to fit the particular thing that you are testing at that time and vary heavily from sectional testing to global testing as an example. If you have worked in these test environments as much as you say then you will know all too well that only the developers themselves know what they are testing for and will have their own reasons for making these changes in such a short space of time.
Your only job in the test realms is to help with the stress testing of any new stuff and to draw the attention of the devs to any bugs that you may notice, it is not really to question the method by which they conduct their own testing. Again, as many have mentioned already, if you don't like the way they do things then don't take part in the program.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Comments
Stop whining! Wait until they shovel a NGE in your ass. As they did with SWG. Then you can talk about developers not learning.
Well - Like I have stated before. Class balance is nothing anyone should play with from day to day. If you want to get the class balance right then you test it on INTERNAL servers and throw the changed on to PUPLIC TESTSEVERS as a PACKAGE to let the users test it for 3-4 weeks. If something needs more tweaking you do so THEN but no by changing stats day 1, day 2, day 3 day 4. Why ? Because then you get absolut ZERO testresults.
I find it quite funny that MMORPG,COM forums are probably one of the less mature ones found. Thats the one most single scare I have about AOC. Maturity is not messured in age. Thats for sure.
If my opinion contradicts your opinion then I'm immature.
You can't say the changes on the test server are going in and you can't say they aren't. But you definatly can't say Blizzard hasn't nerfed a class in the past. You can't even say Blizzard has a good track record of
not making Class A not suck even with class balancing.
Expect class nerfs in AoC thats a downfall of class based MMOs. There isn't a single class based MMO that doesn't do this class balance thing throughout the life of the game.
Hmmm, so you know what the developers can see from day to day do you? I would think myself that they, as the developers and testers would probably know a little more about the game mechanics than you do and as has been pointed out many times in this thread, this is a 'TEST' server and as such they are pretty well free to do whatever they like whenever they like! Just because 'you' haven't had your time to 'play' with their changes does not mean that they haven't got the data they need, as believe it or not, you and your friends are not the only people in there!
I would be interested to know how much feedback you have sent to the developers in regard to the changes that they have made?? How many feedback/test forms have you filled in since starting this "testing"??
As far as class balance is concerned, Blizzard have changed it in one way or another in pretty much every patch they have released in the past three years and i wouldn't have expected this one to be any different. The main thing to remember is that it is being played around with on a test server and not been released as a full patch. Finally, for people to quit the game on the strength of changes that may not even happen is just crazy! If you are not prepared to keep an open mind when using the test servers, then don't use them, simple as that really!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Did I mention the key words are TEST SERVER?
Class balance in terms of raids for example can not be tested on day to day basis. It is a long term progress - just like everything else in terms of raiding. My guild has killed Illidan - Don't take it as I dont know what Im talking about. The future of our guild has now been compromised, since alot of members are very offended in the way Blizzard are handling key features of class and spec balance. Day to day changes is not an acceptable way to handle class balance after 3 years of gameplay.
And yes - That is a new low in history of MMOs.
Did I mention the key words are TEST SERVER?
Again - there are things u test on internal test servers and public test servers. If current class balancing issues have passed the internal test servers then its very worrying yes.And I do know what Test servers mean. I've been working on private internal test servers for over 3 years now. Not in WoW tho.
Class balance in terms of raids for example can not be tested on day to day basis. It is a long term progress - just like everything else in terms of raiding. My guild has killed Illidan - Don't take it as I dont know what Im talking about. The future of our guild has now been compromised, since alot of members are very offended in the way Blizzard are handling key features of class and spec balance. Day to day changes is not an acceptable way to handle class balance after 3 years of gameplay.
And yes - That is a new low in history of MMOs.
Just for fun, please list all the games you have developed content for, so that we may see where this all-knowing wisdom on the right way to test a game comes from?
Class balance in terms of raids for example can not be tested on day to day basis. It is a long term progress - just like everything else in terms of raiding. My guild has killed Illidan - Don't take it as I dont know what Im talking about. The future of our guild has now been compromised, since alot of members are very offended in the way Blizzard are handling key features of class and spec balance. Day to day changes is not an acceptable way to handle class balance after 3 years of gameplay.
And yes - That is a new low in history of MMOs.
Just for fun, please list all the games you have developed content for, so that we may see where this all-knowing wisdom on the right way to test a game comes from?
Sure - I have been in class balance team of the following games- DAOC
- AOC
I worked for CCP for 2 years as a programmmer (makers of Eve online) Im 36 years old and Im from Iceland witch maybe explains my bad english abit. Im not gonna bother asking my m8s from CCP confirm who I am cause you will just keep on flaming.
You guys are welcome to keep on flaming all you like. It still doesn't change that this method of TESTING and changing class balance is NOT what any MMO devs should be putting out for the public.
Im not calling BLizzard retards. Im talking about new low.
Good job m8.
It is unfortunate to know that a few players have left just by seeing bigger changes done for experimentation in a test server. I highly doubt that Activision Blizzard is making these test changes to purposely aggravate their customers.
Was this the first time your guild has completed all up-to-date raids and decided to spend time preparing for upcoming content? In the past, I remember a couple times when a guild puts effort in test servers where members felt uncomfortable with possible in-game changes afterwards. In most of these cases, the players quickly accepted the testing situation, and I have never heard of players taking offence to this extent.
In my opinion, development teams playing with class balance from day to day in a test server is not a new low - many MMOs before have done so during testing. For me, big changes are often entertaining to experience for testing fun; they often leave me wondering whether or not it's just a the development team making an adjustment mistake or if it's indeed which way the game is heading. Afterwards, it is either "Oh thank God!" or "Wow, I must start planning for this!" - I wouldn't want to play a class the same way forever anyways.
If what you say is true, and I am not claiming it isn't, then this would indicate you are an educated person. I'll even go one step further to say that the progession of your english, typing, grammer, and overall tone of your postings which have gone from 12 year old, to adult during the course of this thread is also something to "applaud" yet is also quite odd. However, one quick question for you based in logic.
You're arguement is based on your opinion on how testing should be done and how "this method of testing and changing class balance is not what any MMO devs shoul dbe putting out for the public" is based upon your experiences with the games you have been in on in a devolper/tester capacity. How many of those games have:
A) The initial success of WoW?
C) At least 1/3rd the player base of WoW?
Maybe the fact that Blizzard, by NOT doing things the way "everyone else" does it, is finding unprecedented success with WoW. Just a thought.
I quit WoW forever ago because of trash like this. The constant echoes of "QQ mor nubsaucez0rz lololol grind teh epix mor" became too much for me. I have no desire to play with these people.
Blizzard should make the OP pay double the monthly fee to play.
Just because he would.
To the OP,
They have changed the way test server is rolled out. They are putting you guys to work and it sounds like if you play on the test server your input will be listened to. Gone are the days when test center was a polished patch preview of things to come.
Explain to them what you don't like about each change and why you think the change is a mistake. Be constructive and detailed. If enough of you are saying the same thing then I am sure they will change it.
If you don't like them putting you to work on the test realm then roll a new toon on a regular realm or just quit, it is your right.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
How did this guy get invited into AOC General Beta and I didn't. (If he really is)
/sigh
Anyway... bookmarked. Thanks for the great laugh OP. You truly have no concept of game development & keep ignoring the posts that explain your misunderstandings.
Awesome. Keep up the good work.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I would have to agree that public test servers are not the place a development team should make direct changes in.
I do not know the testing model Blizzard has but I also think it is illogical to throw out half a change in a public test server.
In a normal testing environment you would use public testing as the final testing phase before going live.
Why blizzard did this may be something as simple as a mistake.
I can honestly say I have released code I did not intend to.
As a result, how can you except to get a balanced testing review from your customers if you release an unbalanced change?
What gets me about this thread is I can not believe how some of posters condemned the OP for their first comment because they did not give you FACTS and when they did you shrugged them off and continued with personal attacks.
It was clear to me that the OP has been keeping some very concise statistics on the mechanics of the game.
Ok, so I don't prefer to provide a response from myself on forums like this, however I just felt obligated.
Before you ask, no, I didn't just create this to flame, I actually decided to not be lazy and make an account when I saw this post. I've actually been coming to this site for quite a while.
To the OP:
Your idea behind the "proper" way to implement character balancing and testing really doesn't matter, nor does your opinion. Why, you may ask? Well lets take a look at the basics here.
(1)WOW is a leader in the MMO industry (Hated or Loved, that's what they are at this point in time)
(2)WOW has managed to create a game that many people love (Including myself) for the simple fact that it's a game you can get into fairly easily if you need a break from the 'hardcore' style of the usual MMO grind-fest.
(3)WOW has also managed to maintain their numbers, and this patch isn't going to affect that
(4)WOW, unlike many MMOs, actually take their community into consideration when making decisions
Just because you, and your guild don't approve of "How" they are implementing their testing or what they are looking to do with the next patch and the class system, you need to understand that it's NOT final. If you really feel this strongly, perhaps, oh I don't know, use the Test Servers to your advantage. Get on there, work with what they have provided you, and supply (Here comes the straw that broke the camel's back) feedback. That is what these "Test Servers" are meant for.
You can't sit there, and tell me, with a straight face, you believe they are going to nerf the hell out of everything and just push it to live. If so, you're seriously smoking something and should go think about what you've failed to accomplish here with your post. Your post is nothing but snippets of crying and complaints for no real good reason.
Best game ever played (Anarchy-Online - 4yrs of Service)
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Have Played: FFXI, SWG, EQ2, L2, GW, CoH/X, Vanguard, WoW, LOTRO, MxO, AoC
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Currently Playing: WAR (Wurtbad Server) Chaos - Mourtok (Maurader) // Alissua (DoK)
That's what the test server is for. Changes and testing. They can't please everybody. Oh my, four people left. What will they do.
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Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy!
And once again - this has nothing to do with beta in terms of general gameplay - This has to do with CHANGES of class balance on day to day basis that is not acceptable in ANY MMORGP game - be that on test server or anywhere else. This is balance in terms of basic abilites beeing changed and in terms of items that are put into the game.
Now - If you think anyone in my guild is leaving cause of hard bosses in sunwell... that kinda says it all how much u know about test servers. You know that devs start the bosses up on about 50-75% of what they think is ideal for a challenge? That way they can get fast info on bugs and stats on all raid bosses. You do know this right ? If not then plz dont give me lectures about how leaders of any game should or should not behave in terms of showing respect to their custimors.
There is a big diffrence taking the community into consideration and providing a balanced gameplay. No game developer can EVER base their class balance changes on what the players want. If you still think so then maybe you should listen to all the Druids that still feel its perfectly fine to have no CD on cyclone and no interuptions available.
Or are we gonna make it a whining contest on each forums and change the balance acording to that ? Seriously ? If Bizzard can not stand in both feets regarding class balance in this game then it SHOWS that WOW is not build on strong basic consepts to keep on going. And Its obvious that basic formulas in terms of class balance have failed when calculating the class changes in 2.4. You know that every class is build around certain basic general forumals to make up real numbers when it comes to balance ? Dont you ? Or you think its just devs going ..."ahh lets put hmmm 52! here" !!!. Basic formulas like the spirit/int compered to mp5 have failed. Its obvious for all to see. That is not the stats that are changed tho to create balance - Your welcome to go on to the test servers and see innervate do 7.5 k mana per 5 if you think something needs to be reported. That is not something to take seriously if a game dev can't see basics like that go wrong ? Seriously?
And if Blizzard EVER needed to stand their ground it is NOW - since they are balancing two diffrent aspects in the game for the first time ever. PVE content for 5 - 25 man teams AND PVP for 2 - 5 man teams. THis will NOT be done by changing stats on day to day basis.
And yes - again - this is a new low. Be that from the biggest but its still new low.
A new low in mmo history? Get real. Star Wars Galaxies went from turn based to fps hybrid and deleted more professions than they kept. Then they got rid of the skill point system and went level based.
If they did this to WOW you would have an fps with two professions and people crying to merge servers because the vast majority of players jumped ship.
Get some perspective.
Once again, you obviously don't get it.
It's funny that you continually state, "Not acceptable in ANY MMORGP game". Ok, so we get your point, you're butthurt because they are wanting to work with their system, if it be "day to day", so be it. The fact you're getting so worked up over something that isn't final, that is in Test means jack-all. These guys, Blizzard, have come a long way since launch and have put down a pretty good game. Which makes me believe in their decisions in what they have planned for the game and its future. Each patch they've released has not impacted the game in any negative way. Now, yes, there will be those who get upset over little changes here and their made to the characters they play. The majority do, however, get over it.
The way they handle the testing, is how they will handle it. Nice thing about it though, is you have a choice to leave or you can make your voice be heard. I suggest you spend your time in the Test Server, providing that feed back. Have many of your guild mates, friends, whoever do the same. My past experiences with Blizzard have been positive with a good amount pressure from the actual community if they don't like something.
So, instead of coming here to these boards to make a post about something you don't approve of, which is really just wasting your time. Also, from what I can tell, annoying those who really just don't care about stupid little complaints such as these, go do something about it.
Best game ever played (Anarchy-Online - 4yrs of Service)
----------------
Have Played: FFXI, SWG, EQ2, L2, GW, CoH/X, Vanguard, WoW, LOTRO, MxO, AoC
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Currently Playing: WAR (Wurtbad Server) Chaos - Mourtok (Maurader) // Alissua (DoK)
Blizzard have already been told what I feel about this. I think more than just me have told them that.
I have a choise to pay for a product or not. I desided not to pay for it based on this. I have a choise to do so - but I also have the right to point out why I made that choise. If Blizzard cares ... Probaby not. But maybe they will learn from this. If not then just be ready for more of the same.
I have already made numerous examples here what I mean - Why did ret paladid season 1 and 2 items not have res from the start ? Because Blizzard was testing someting out ? Or they added it when all the ret paladins went mad on the forums ?
Beeing the biggest doesn't make you right all the time. Then we would still be playing UO
This point is just becoming tired and boring to be honest!!
Have any of these changes been implemented live? - NO!
Have Blizzard said that any of these changes will be implemented? - NO!
Do you know exactly what Blizzard is looking at from a test point of view when they make these changes? - NO!
As far as testing is concerned, as long as you have an eye on a specific target and a set of particular test scripts that fit a particular perameter you could change the stats every freakin hour if you choose as long as you are collecting the data that you require to satisfy your aim!
Testing methods are not rigid, they have to fit the particular thing that you are testing at that time and vary heavily from sectional testing to global testing as an example. If you have worked in these test environments as much as you say then you will know all too well that only the developers themselves know what they are testing for and will have their own reasons for making these changes in such a short space of time.
Your only job in the test realms is to help with the stress testing of any new stuff and to draw the attention of the devs to any bugs that you may notice, it is not really to question the method by which they conduct their own testing. Again, as many have mentioned already, if you don't like the way they do things then don't take part in the program.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.