Originally posted by buddhabead Further i would even go as far as to say the game was rushed. The game had a very 'mis-managed' beta-phase. The beta-signups went up pretty early but nothing really came out, then the game went into a sort of paid CB, you paid $5 to NCSoft for a chance to participate in the CB, and many people did pay up. Then few weeks later they had a OB which lasted another few weeks before pushing into full retail release.
I am going to have to stop you there. For infact there was no requirement for you to pay anything to get into the closed beta. I remember the whole event very very clearly infact.
1) The preorders for the game (where you either ordered off the NCsoft website for $5 and the price was then taken off your retail order from them) or picked up the pre order box from a store (price set by the store but i know i paid £1.99 for mine, which works out at about $4) came with Beta access (it didnt say Closed or Open beta, and that was where the mess up came into play). They decided to give EVERYONE who had the preorder code closed beta access... hell if you worked in a game retailer you could even pick up the pre order box cheaper (i know a few people who did this)
2) Fileplanet and Gamespot were given an allocation of time limited beta access passes. You didnt have to pay to sign up via those.
3) You could also sign up on Tabula Rasa site to gain access to the beta (i had signed up in 2006 for it), you werent guarenteed access BUT i do know people who signed up in July 2007 and were accepted that way (after the closed had started)
So infact the only time where you "paid to get into the beta" was if you preordered the game. But then again i would assume that most people here would expect that pre ordering a game nowadays would come with someform of "beta access".
If you are against that, then dont take advantage of any pre orders where you have to pay to get it, even if they do come with beta access.
NCsoft has shot down a "sloppy and sensational" article that called Tabula Rasa a "financial disaster," but admitted potential layoffs may be in the works following the game’s lackluster performance.
“We still have problems with this guy,” said NCsoft’s communications director David Swofford in an email to Next-Gen, referring to the reporter who wrote the article. NCsoft says it isn’t the first time the reporter has penned sloppy articles about the publisher. Most recently, a Korea Times report suggested that the disastrous financial performance of Tabula Rasa was driving NCsoft to implement layoffs at its Austin, US-based studio. While Swofford acknowledged that the game “could have done a little better” and that “there’s a possibility that there could be downsizing with the TR team”, he was keen to counter a number of the claims made. “The Korea Times English edition story is full of inaccuracies,” he said. “No one at NCsoft said the product is a financial disaster. That came from the writer and is his opinion. “The TR development did not cost $100 million. I don’t know where that came from. The price tag for the product was much less…a fraction of that cost. Tabula Rasa was not restarted more than twice. It had one overhaul and that came after 2-3 years of development. “The article made it sound like the TR launch led to some sort of falling out with Robert Garriott. That is so far from the truth. In fact Robert has been promoted to work more with CEO TJ Kim on business development. Yes Robert is out of the day-to-day operations, but he’s still in the office and now travels much more for the company than he did before. “Yes there’s a possibility that there could be downsizing with the TR team. Some of that is due to the cyclical nature of game development (product is out and the team downsizes). Some is due to the fact that the product could have done a little better. But there is a lot going on with the TR team. They are working on more updates. We are planning a Japan launch later in the year. And the company is planning on investing millions into the product, so it’s not going away and in fact we have plans to grow it. “The Korea Times story was very inflammatory. The writer is notorious for writing sloppy and sensational articles about NCsoft. Also the Korea Times English edition is not the same as the Korea Times printed in Korean. It’s (the English edition) very low on the totem pole and is not any sort of high standard for journalism in Korea.”
Quoted to maybe drive this point home to more more.... 'resistant'... amongst us.
Ya' know... It never fails to amaze me on these boards how 'selective' people are on these boards in these conversations. If it dosent fit their point, they just ignore it and steam ahead regardless... Never let the truth or objective reason get in the way of a point your trying to make eh?
I'm no fan of TR, but, hell, if your gonna attack it at least attack it fairly and take on board both sides of the debate.
I am getting really bored of discussing these things with children and fanbois not able to acknowledge and conceed valid points.
NCsoft has shot down a "sloppy and sensational" article that called Tabula Rasa a "financial disaster," but admitted potential layoffs may be in the works following the game’s lackluster performance.
“We still have problems with this guy,” said NCsoft’s communications director David Swofford in an email to Next-Gen, referring to the reporter who wrote the article. NCsoft says it isn’t the first time the reporter has penned sloppy articles about the publisher. Most recently, a Korea Times report suggested that the disastrous financial performance of Tabula Rasa was driving NCsoft to implement layoffs at its Austin, US-based studio. While Swofford acknowledged that the game “could have done a little better” and that “there’s a possibility that there could be downsizing with the TR team”, he was keen to counter a number of the claims made. “The Korea Times English edition story is full of inaccuracies,” he said. “No one at NCsoft said the product is a financial disaster. That came from the writer and is his opinion. “The TR development did not cost $100 million. I don’t know where that came from. The price tag for the product was much less…a fraction of that cost. Tabula Rasa was not restarted more than twice. It had one overhaul and that came after 2-3 years of development. “The article made it sound like the TR launch led to some sort of falling out with Robert Garriott. That is so far from the truth. In fact Robert has been promoted to work more with CEO TJ Kim on business development. Yes Robert is out of the day-to-day operations, but he’s still in the office and now travels much more for the company than he did before. “Yes there’s a possibility that there could be downsizing with the TR team. Some of that is due to the cyclical nature of game development (product is out and the team downsizes). Some is due to the fact that the product could have done a little better. But there is a lot going on with the TR team. They are working on more updates. We are planning a Japan launch later in the year. And the company is planning on investing millions into the product, so it’s not going away and in fact we have plans to grow it. “The Korea Times story was very inflammatory. The writer is notorious for writing sloppy and sensational articles about NCsoft. Also the Korea Times English edition is not the same as the Korea Times printed in Korean. It’s (the English edition) very low on the totem pole and is not any sort of high standard for journalism in Korea.”
Quoted to maybe drive this point home to more more.... 'resistant'... amongst us.
Ya' know... It never fails to amaze me on these boards how 'selective' people are on these boards in these conversations. If it dosent fit their point, they just ignore it and steam ahead regardless... Never let the truth or objective reason get in the way of a point your trying to make eh?
I'm no fan of TR, but, hell, if your gonna attack it at least attack it fairly and take on board both sides of the debate.
I am getting really bored of discussing these things with children and fanbois not able to acknowledge and conceed valid points.
You are actually no different than the others you know. They chose to quote the Korea Times article and believe it to be gospel, and you take the NCSoft press release and do the same. Quite honestly, neither source is more credible than the other so what does it matter which side folks chose to trust?
Insulting the posters on this forum by calling them children and fanbois does nothing to make you look more intelligent and informed btw.
I'm pretty sure that no matter what the real numbers were, TR can safely be considered a financial disaster for all concerned (check out those NCSoft stock prices) and have to hope AION can pull them out of their recent rut.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There is a lot of hate thrown at TR but I really do wonder if many of these people have played it.
It isn't a game for everyone but it is terrifically playable, involving and above all fun.
In it's first few months it has garnered around 150,000 subscribers which is on a par with City Of Heroes which took around 6 months to hit 180,000. LOTRO which has had almost a year to grow, has only 200,000 or thereabouts. TR may not be the new WOW but it is performing on a par with the majority of it's rivals.
With a Japanese release later in the year and NCSoft hinting at a game-pass subscription allowing access to their whole raft of games, it seems pretty unlikely that TR will be canned any time soon.
The only reason it's future is in question is that NCSoft killed off AutoAssault when it was still pulling in tens of thousands of subscribers. Having played both there really is no comparison between the two.
I liked Auto Assault but it was a game which literally came to a dead end as you levelled. TR on the other hand seems ripe for new world expansions and an ever-broadening storyline. It is also a much more finessed and higher quality product than AA.
I believe that whilst it's birth has been a relatively low-key affair, it's core gameplay is of such high quality that like EVE it will be a slow burner which grows and grows. Certainly having spent a few months in it's free flowing and changing world, I could never envisage going back to a cookie-cutter mmo again. Provided NCSoft keep the faith, TR may still become a long-term hit.
You are kidding right, i think TR's gameplay is its primary failing. I mean come on, hold down/click mouse for 4 mins, rinse/repeat..... This is not a solid core. You can say all you want that ZOMG there is no auto attack, ITS TRUE THERE ISNT but there is hold down the button attack or click 342590827435984735957 times attack.
You can like the game all you want but dont lie and say its got some awesome revolutionary combat mechanic when its not even 1/2 as in depth as WOW and certainly not even 1/1000th as in depth as EVE.
Core game play high quality? You are kidding right, i think TR's gameplay is its primary failing. I mean come on, hold down/click mouse for 4 mins, rinse/repeat..... This is not a solid core. You can say all you want that ZOMG there is no auto attack, ITS TRUE THERE ISNT but there is hold down the button attack or click 342590827435984735957 times attack. You can like the game all you want but dont lie and say its got some awesome revolutionary combat mechanic when its not even 1/2 as in depth as WOW and certainly not even 1/1000th as in depth as EVE.
How much of TR have you played and how far did you level??
Strategy and tactics are necessary, especially with leveling. Combat is not that easy at the higher levels, especially during zerg moments and CP defense/assault... tactical thought and planning are definitely necessary for a lot of situations. This is not a simple console game.
I don't think it's "revolutionary"... but it does require developing tactical skill.
I agree with the earlier poster that I don't think many of the gameplay critics have either played or played thru more than the novice levels.
Pasha Dobry- 39 Engy in the un-official, un-uber-1337 TR clan, Ad Idem.
Originally posted by Dobry I don't think it's "revolutionary"... but it does require developing tactical skill. I agree with the earlier poster that I don't think many of the gameplay critics have either played or played thru more than the novice levels.
In honesty I have to disagree.
It IS a fun game to play, and yes I did play through it.. I bought it actually and played it everyday for a month.
At the end of that month my wrist hurt from the constant shooting, which is what this game IS all about..
shooting shooting shooting and more shooting.. I had to stop and craft just to give hands something else to do.
You dont shoot this much on FPS shooting games!
The problem is not the auto function, but the complete lack of skills, or rather the lack of any need to use them.
Im sorry to hear its a cash cow, I honestly thought I would come back to this game after 6 months. Maybe not now.
It needs many more classes, many more skills and probably a lower monthly fee..
I'm not sure what mmo doesn't involve "shooting", or constant clicking... unless you are looking for a more crafting/economic-based game. That's the nature of mmo's, lots of clicking...
My point is that TR, in many situations, is not simply a "point-and-shoot" game, definitely not. Requires resource management, power and armor management, careful and tactical use of logos abilities for attack and defense, planning in order to successfully complete, say, a CP assault or defense... squad-based combined-arms coordination if that's your thing... etc., etc.
I think it's highly misleading, and outright wrong, to say that TR is only a "point-and-click" game. It's not, not by a longshot. In comparison, I think WoW for example is a much easier game, gameplay-wise, than TR is on some missions.
Pasha Dobry- 39 Engy in the un-official, un-uber-1337 TR clan, Ad Idem.
The problem is not the auto function, but the complete lack of skills, or rather the lack of any need to use them.
You didn't try playing as an engineer or even a biotech then. No escaping from skill use there. This isn't a flaw in the game, it's you not liking it.
There is nothing wrong with shooting anyhow, I'd be damned disappointed if I bought a game based on a battlefield which didn't have shooting. But shooting to the exclusion of using skills is a choice; the skill points are there for you to allocate as you please.
It is perfectly possible to make effective use of the skills available, but often it is a learning process to discover how best to use them. In fact using different tier levels of the same skill can be used to devastating effect as each tier may have subtle differences in it's effects. A good example of this is the biotech skill reconstruction which at first glance is an aoe heal. However at tier 2 it also drops an affected enemy's spirit points and at tier 3 his body (hit points); if you use tier 3 and then follow up with tier 2 whilst the first attack is still functioning, the results are BIG.
The game may at first appear simplistic but, like a swan gliding across a pond, it's got a lot going on beneath the surface. If you don't look, you won't find.
NCsoft has shot down a "sloppy and sensational" article that called Tabula Rasa a "financial disaster," but admitted potential layoffs may be in the works following the game’s lackluster performance.
“We still have problems with this guy,” said NCsoft’s communications director David Swofford in an email to Next-Gen, referring to the reporter who wrote the article. NCsoft says it isn’t the first time the reporter has penned sloppy articles about the publisher. Most recently, a Korea Times report suggested that the disastrous financial performance of Tabula Rasa was driving NCsoft to implement layoffs at its Austin, US-based studio. While Swofford acknowledged that the game “could have done a little better” and that “there’s a possibility that there could be downsizing with the TR team”, he was keen to counter a number of the claims made. “The Korea Times English edition story is full of inaccuracies,” he said. “No one at NCsoft said the product is a financial disaster. That came from the writer and is his opinion. “The TR development did not cost $100 million. I don’t know where that came from. The price tag for the product was much less…a fraction of that cost. Tabula Rasa was not restarted more than twice. It had one overhaul and that came after 2-3 years of development. “The article made it sound like the TR launch led to some sort of falling out with Robert Garriott. That is so far from the truth. In fact Robert has been promoted to work more with CEO TJ Kim on business development. Yes Robert is out of the day-to-day operations, but he’s still in the office and now travels much more for the company than he did before. “Yes there’s a possibility that there could be downsizing with the TR team. Some of that is due to the cyclical nature of game development (product is out and the team downsizes). Some is due to the fact that the product could have done a little better. But there is a lot going on with the TR team. They are working on more updates. We are planning a Japan launch later in the year. And the company is planning on investing millions into the product, so it’s not going away and in fact we have plans to grow it. “The Korea Times story was very inflammatory. The writer is notorious for writing sloppy and sensational articles about NCsoft. Also the Korea Times English edition is not the same as the Korea Times printed in Korean. It’s (the English edition) very low on the totem pole and is not any sort of high standard for journalism in Korea.”
Quoted to maybe drive this point home to more more.... 'resistant'... amongst us.
Ya' know... It never fails to amaze me on these boards how 'selective' people are on these boards in these conversations. If it dosent fit their point, they just ignore it and steam ahead regardless... Never let the truth or objective reason get in the way of a point your trying to make eh?
I'm no fan of TR, but, hell, if your gonna attack it at least attack it fairly and take on board both sides of the debate.
I am getting really bored of discussing these things with children and fanbois not able to acknowledge and conceed valid points.
You are actually no different than the others you know. They chose to quote the Korea Times article and believe it to be gospel, and you take the NCSoft press release and do the same. Quite honestly, neither source is more credible than the other so what does it matter which side folks chose to trust?
Insulting the posters on this forum by calling them children and fanbois does nothing to make you look more intelligent and informed btw.
I'm pretty sure that no matter what the real numbers were, TR can safely be considered a financial disaster for all concerned (check out those NCSoft stock prices) and have to hope AION can pull them out of their recent rut.
Oh, do stop trying to lecture me, I am not trying to do anything of the sort. Didn't you get the point I was making at all? Seems like you may be one of the more 'resistant' I mentioned?
I quoted this to make a point on balance. To drive home that there was another side to the OPs jaundiced view that others simply chose to ignore because it didnt suit their point. I didnt even say I agreed with what was being posted, just that it was bad debate to ignore it, as certain folks in this thread and indeed across these boards do all the time.
I will stop calling those posters here that act like children, fanbois, haters, or whatever, just that when, and only when, they stop presenting themselves as such and can hold an objective discussion. I only wanted to insult those who saw themselves in my statement... You didnt did you?
And I forgot to say earlier... what?? auto-attack function? There is no auto-function in TR, unlike in many mmo's... not sure what you're referring to, sadeyx.
Pasha Dobry- 39 Engy in the un-official, un-uber-1337 TR clan, Ad Idem.
Originally posted by brostyn I think too many businessmen, and not enough gamers are trying to enter this genre. Hey, here's an idea; you let a real game dev team make a game, and I bet you might make money. Instead we have the 100 year old suits trying to decide a game's direction.
I could not disagree with you more. The last thing we need is gamers running everything. Too many developers are making games that they want to play instead of games that their customers want to play. We need more people in the industry that understands and uses standard business practices (such as milestones and proper management procedures).
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Originally posted by brostyn I think too many businessmen, and not enough gamers are trying to enter this genre. Hey, here's an idea; you let a real game dev team make a game, and I bet you might make money. Instead we have the 100 year old suits trying to decide a game's direction.
I could not disagree with you more. The last thing we need is gamers running everything. Too many developers are making games that they want to play instead of games that their customers want to play. We need more people in the industry that understands and uses standard business practices (such as milestones and proper management procedures).
Tbh, even EA disagree with you with their current 'city state' managment philosophy... They seem to believe that teams such as Mythic should just be left alone to be creaitve and call their own shots with milestones etc. What you are saying about 'standard' business practices is pretty much widely recognised to be exactly the wrong way to handle a creative process, such as creating a game.
sadeyx, I'm not sure what mmo doesn't involve "shooting", or constant clicking... unless you are looking for a more crafting/economic-based game. That's the nature of mmo's, lots of clicking...
You misunderstand, alow me to clarify.
There is a difference between hundreds of single clicks than keeping your finger pressed on the mouse key and occasionally letting go!
Also, in games like wow there is a great deal more keyboard key pressing, you are not required to keep your hand tightly gripped on the mouse (to aim) at the same time as keeping a click held pressed for lengthy amounts of time. at the same time as manouvering the mouse accuratly.
This constant strain on your hand is what I refer to as the 'shooting' Even on an FPS which requires a dexterity and hand eye coordination you are rarly in a situation where you are also constantly keeping pressure on your finger.
This is how TR differs, on most mmo's ive played you can operate perfectly well while not even having to use the mouse, TR forces you to use it.. and use it excesivly, which is monotonous and boring. (eventually)
Originally posted by Dobry
I think it's highly misleading, and outright wrong, to say that TR is only a "point-and-click" game. It's not, not by a longshot. In comparison, I think WoW for example is a much easier game, gameplay-wise, than TR is on some missions.
Your correct, it is wrong, since it isnt a 'point and click' if it were as simple as that it wouldnt be as bad at all.
I dont see how you feel its 'easier' than wow, cmon man, give the game SOME credit! Wow is for kids..wow is essentially the easiest game I ever played (for 14 days) no skill is required in Wow, and thats why its so bloody popular! its just timing. Tabula rasa at least has aiming!
Originally posted by Roadshow
The problem is not the auto function, but the complete lack of skills, or rather the lack of any need to use them.
You didn't try playing as an engineer or even a biotech then. No escaping from skill use there. This isn't a flaw in the game, it's you not liking it.
I disagree, I did like it. and yes I didnt play a bio tech simply because it got tedious before then.
See my comments above about shooting. Your right, there is nothing 'wrong' with shooting, but in Battlefield there is way more! that 'just shooting' Every single class kinda MUST have its basic shooting skill maxed. Its un avoidable. so its more a lack of variety within EVERY class, not just one class.
The things which make each class different dont make the class unique, and since you have to keep all your skill points and grind away to level 30 before you can pick your third class tree.. and then grind hiedously more.. its just... grinding... and shooting constantly. There is no break from it..
Anyway, This isnt a debate about the game and your arguments mean nothing in light of the fact that is IS failing! and as much as you may like it you will soon move on since there just wont be enough people playing it, there wont be content updates as much, things wont get fixed as quickly, customer service is slow...
All these things which stopped me from playing vanguard! Again, another brilliant game.. let down by its population and other troubles.
Simple - thats the word i use to discribe TR from day 1 in the beta we testers was saying that the game has hardly any content and the character devolopment was too simple which produced clones. The devs promised more content better quests better character system and never produced that. TR was a great concept let down by try to make the game too simple and trying to stay away from the standard MMO feactures but not offering alternatives to the feactures they stayed clear off. I remember a poll on the ncsoft beta forums that asked how long TR would last until it gets canned 1 year was the general thought. Earthrise is going to kill TR when that hits the shops.
Is that not the cost of buying Destination Games - and the money paid to the Garriott brothers?
Personally I wouldnt count that as a TR development cost as the game had barely begun development in 2001.
Which to say in other words is a business expense made by NcSoft for the creation, development, and release of TR. Perhaps not a direct cost with the scope of development, but this is associated with the full budgeting of TR.
The full expense for bringing TR to the market, as well as to maintain operations until out of the red, is great (I'm siding around $75 million), which I think makes this title the most expensive MMO Title to be released.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Which would be the case, however; Bioware has more assets which dilutes that expense onto other fields, projects and IP's. Such an expense is not carried completely over onto just the new MMO in the works.
Whereas with Garrot's company, his company only had one project and the assets were dedicated to that project.
Try again.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
1) Yes most journalism/journalists have an agenda to their article. Journalism although in principle is about objectivity, but in reality its never objective. Journalism is not a science nor is it an art, its the politics of the public. However although journlists do tend to some form of bias and push some sort of agenda, they still do a more credible job than official press releases. Most published articles require some form of fact checking and some form of research. The so called 'inflammatory ' writer in order to get his article published had to at least do some digging and come to a conclusions from the research. If you read the offical press reply from NCSoft they didn't condem the writer for providing the 'wrong' facts but instead critisize the writer for his 'anti NCSOFT' tone. The key here is never trust 100% the 'official press' , especially when it deals with a mega corporation and a financially sensative product of own. So when a corporation says 'disappointed', the word 'disaster' is probably closer to the truth.
2) TR is fun to play in the short term but fails miserably as a mega-budget MMORPG. Where ithe game really failed was that TR was trying to be everything for everyone. TR wanted to be your UO, your WoW, your UT, your Auto Assault, your Team Fortress, but in the end it failed on all accounts. It lacks the depth of lore your classic fantasy MMO, it also lacks the freedom of a Sandbox game, nor is it full of action like your FPS games, and probably most importantly TR lacks that 'fun' appeal that has made WoW so successful across the world. Put it simply TR has no 'hook' to it.
3) TR has no 'real' content. The only content TR has is a semi-interesting but very linear storyline and a series to quests to get a player through it. It's plays out exactly like a single player 3rd person shooter. In fact the only 'MMO' aspect of it is that it just happens other people are playing through the same storyline as you at the same time.
There's no player-driven economy, no character development, no crafting system, no guild system, no factional conflicts, no pvp, no end-game, it dosnt even have dungeons to raid. The only content TR has right now is a stretched out PvE game where you pay $15 a month to fight against badly scripted AI.
4) NCSoft was hoping to use TR as the starting point to launch itself into the sci-fi MMO market in the West, but it turned out to be a huge financial gamble that failed miserably. I remember a few months ago it was leaked that the NCSoft board were not at all impressed with the performance of Richard Garriot and the TR project and wanted to cut down investment, but the executive gave Mr. Garriot his full backing, it seems now that the financial results have vindicated the board. In further evidence, not only is NCSoft downsizing its headquarters in Austin, it has also announced the cancellation one of its other proposed sci-fi MMO projects Blackstar. It seems that the huge disaster that TR has proved to be has caused NCSoft to re-assess its market strategies and move away from the sci-fi genre and distancing itself from further developments in TR.
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Just a note about the UI comments. You can change the UI from FPS/MMO style if you want. Ive studied and applied UID (User Interface Design) for 20 years in the game industry. I can tell you it is very logical to click the index finger to fire your weapon in the game. Think about it hard enough and you can probably figure out why that is. It has something to do with your "trigger finger."
As far as I can see most of the information I am reading here is completly wrong about the game. Please, if you want to know something about a game, experience it for yourself, and take the time while you are doing that to really learn the game. First impressions are rarely accurate. I make a habbit to not comment on a game unless I've spanned the entire level range. I often find that what I would have said sooner would have been much different. It also gives me the time to find the thing I was not aware of like the auctions house/economy, dungeons/caves, Clans, and crafting areas...and so forth. All of which *are* in Tabula Rasa.
Tabula Rasa is a decent MMO, its not perfect, but none are.
More importantly there is an obvious connection between how much time we are willing to spend testing a game, and how quickly we are to form an opinion about it. Both of which speak volumes about this community. I've been monitoring these forums for about a year, and I am surprised to see that a large majority of the user based information is inaccurate. If you want information on a game, or to critic it. I highly suggest you go to the game companies forums, where you will get the real facts. People feel free to post what ever they want here because they think no one is watching, or of any autority to correct them. Leaving the floor open to misinformatiin on a massive scale. Take it for what it is worth.
Comments
1) The preorders for the game (where you either ordered off the NCsoft website for $5 and the price was then taken off your retail order from them) or picked up the pre order box from a store (price set by the store but i know i paid £1.99 for mine, which works out at about $4) came with Beta access (it didnt say Closed or Open beta, and that was where the mess up came into play). They decided to give EVERYONE who had the preorder code closed beta access... hell if you worked in a game retailer you could even pick up the pre order box cheaper (i know a few people who did this)
2) Fileplanet and Gamespot were given an allocation of time limited beta access passes. You didnt have to pay to sign up via those.
3) You could also sign up on Tabula Rasa site to gain access to the beta (i had signed up in 2006 for it), you werent guarenteed access BUT i do know people who signed up in July 2007 and were accepted that way (after the closed had started)
So infact the only time where you "paid to get into the beta" was if you preordered the game. But then again i would assume that most people here would expect that pre ordering a game nowadays would come with someform of "beta access".
If you are against that, then dont take advantage of any pre orders where you have to pay to get it, even if they do come with beta access.
Just my take though
Ya' know... It never fails to amaze me on these boards how 'selective' people are on these boards in these conversations. If it dosent fit their point, they just ignore it and steam ahead regardless... Never let the truth or objective reason get in the way of a point your trying to make eh?
I'm no fan of TR, but, hell, if your gonna attack it at least attack it fairly and take on board both sides of the debate.
I am getting really bored of discussing these things with children and fanbois not able to acknowledge and conceed valid points.
Ya' know... It never fails to amaze me on these boards how 'selective' people are on these boards in these conversations. If it dosent fit their point, they just ignore it and steam ahead regardless... Never let the truth or objective reason get in the way of a point your trying to make eh?
I'm no fan of TR, but, hell, if your gonna attack it at least attack it fairly and take on board both sides of the debate.
I am getting really bored of discussing these things with children and fanbois not able to acknowledge and conceed valid points.
You are actually no different than the others you know. They chose to quote the Korea Times article and believe it to be gospel, and you take the NCSoft press release and do the same. Quite honestly, neither source is more credible than the other so what does it matter which side folks chose to trust?
Insulting the posters on this forum by calling them children and fanbois does nothing to make you look more intelligent and informed btw.
I'm pretty sure that no matter what the real numbers were, TR can safely be considered a financial disaster for all concerned (check out those NCSoft stock prices) and have to hope AION can pull them out of their recent rut.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Is that not the cost of buying Destination Games - and the money paid to the Garriott brothers?
Personally I wouldnt count that as a TR development cost as the game had barely begun development in 2001.
now i know why development companys are so lazy, they purchase broken code for millions!!!
There is a lot of hate thrown at TR but I really do wonder if many of these people have played it.
It isn't a game for everyone but it is terrifically playable, involving and above all fun.
In it's first few months it has garnered around 150,000 subscribers which is on a par with City Of Heroes which took around 6 months to hit 180,000. LOTRO which has had almost a year to grow, has only 200,000 or thereabouts. TR may not be the new WOW but it is performing on a par with the majority of it's rivals.
With a Japanese release later in the year and NCSoft hinting at a game-pass subscription allowing access to their whole raft of games, it seems pretty unlikely that TR will be canned any time soon.
The only reason it's future is in question is that NCSoft killed off AutoAssault when it was still pulling in tens of thousands of subscribers. Having played both there really is no comparison between the two.
I liked Auto Assault but it was a game which literally came to a dead end as you levelled. TR on the other hand seems ripe for new world expansions and an ever-broadening storyline. It is also a much more finessed and higher quality product than AA.
I believe that whilst it's birth has been a relatively low-key affair, it's core gameplay is of such high quality that like EVE it will be a slow burner which grows and grows. Certainly having spent a few months in it's free flowing and changing world, I could never envisage going back to a cookie-cutter mmo again. Provided NCSoft keep the faith, TR may still become a long-term hit.
Core game play high quality?
You are kidding right, i think TR's gameplay is its primary failing. I mean come on, hold down/click mouse for 4 mins, rinse/repeat..... This is not a solid core. You can say all you want that ZOMG there is no auto attack, ITS TRUE THERE ISNT but there is hold down the button attack or click 342590827435984735957 times attack.
You can like the game all you want but dont lie and say its got some awesome revolutionary combat mechanic when its not even 1/2 as in depth as WOW and certainly not even 1/1000th as in depth as EVE.
Lick Here you could be one of the lucky 10!!!
Strategy and tactics are necessary, especially with leveling. Combat is not that easy at the higher levels, especially during zerg moments and CP defense/assault... tactical thought and planning are definitely necessary for a lot of situations. This is not a simple console game.
I don't think it's "revolutionary"... but it does require developing tactical skill.
I agree with the earlier poster that I don't think many of the gameplay critics have either played or played thru more than the novice levels.
Pasha Dobry- 39 Engy in the un-official, un-uber-1337 TR clan, Ad Idem.
In honesty I have to disagree.
It IS a fun game to play, and yes I did play through it.. I bought it actually and played it everyday for a month.
At the end of that month my wrist hurt from the constant shooting, which is what this game IS all about..
shooting shooting shooting and more shooting.. I had to stop and craft just to give hands something else to do.
You dont shoot this much on FPS shooting games!
The problem is not the auto function, but the complete lack of skills, or rather the lack of any need to use them.
Im sorry to hear its a cash cow, I honestly thought I would come back to this game after 6 months. Maybe not now.
It needs many more classes, many more skills and probably a lower monthly fee..
sadeyx,
I'm not sure what mmo doesn't involve "shooting", or constant clicking... unless you are looking for a more crafting/economic-based game. That's the nature of mmo's, lots of clicking...
My point is that TR, in many situations, is not simply a "point-and-shoot" game, definitely not. Requires resource management, power and armor management, careful and tactical use of logos abilities for attack and defense, planning in order to successfully complete, say, a CP assault or defense... squad-based combined-arms coordination if that's your thing... etc., etc.
I think it's highly misleading, and outright wrong, to say that TR is only a "point-and-click" game. It's not, not by a longshot. In comparison, I think WoW for example is a much easier game, gameplay-wise, than TR is on some missions.
Pasha Dobry- 39 Engy in the un-official, un-uber-1337 TR clan, Ad Idem.
You didn't try playing as an engineer or even a biotech then. No escaping from skill use there. This isn't a flaw in the game, it's you not liking it.
There is nothing wrong with shooting anyhow, I'd be damned disappointed if I bought a game based on a battlefield which didn't have shooting. But shooting to the exclusion of using skills is a choice; the skill points are there for you to allocate as you please.
It is perfectly possible to make effective use of the skills available, but often it is a learning process to discover how best to use them. In fact using different tier levels of the same skill can be used to devastating effect as each tier may have subtle differences in it's effects. A good example of this is the biotech skill reconstruction which at first glance is an aoe heal. However at tier 2 it also drops an affected enemy's spirit points and at tier 3 his body (hit points); if you use tier 3 and then follow up with tier 2 whilst the first attack is still functioning, the results are BIG.
The game may at first appear simplistic but, like a swan gliding across a pond, it's got a lot going on beneath the surface. If you don't look, you won't find.
Quoted to maybe drive this point home to more more.... 'resistant'... amongst us.Ya' know... It never fails to amaze me on these boards how 'selective' people are on these boards in these conversations. If it dosent fit their point, they just ignore it and steam ahead regardless... Never let the truth or objective reason get in the way of a point your trying to make eh?
I'm no fan of TR, but, hell, if your gonna attack it at least attack it fairly and take on board both sides of the debate.
I am getting really bored of discussing these things with children and fanbois not able to acknowledge and conceed valid points.
You are actually no different than the others you know. They chose to quote the Korea Times article and believe it to be gospel, and you take the NCSoft press release and do the same. Quite honestly, neither source is more credible than the other so what does it matter which side folks chose to trust?
Insulting the posters on this forum by calling them children and fanbois does nothing to make you look more intelligent and informed btw.
I'm pretty sure that no matter what the real numbers were, TR can safely be considered a financial disaster for all concerned (check out those NCSoft stock prices) and have to hope AION can pull them out of their recent rut.
Oh, do stop trying to lecture me, I am not trying to do anything of the sort. Didn't you get the point I was making at all? Seems like you may be one of the more 'resistant' I mentioned?
I quoted this to make a point on balance. To drive home that there was another side to the OPs jaundiced view that others simply chose to ignore because it didnt suit their point. I didnt even say I agreed with what was being posted, just that it was bad debate to ignore it, as certain folks in this thread and indeed across these boards do all the time.
I will stop calling those posters here that act like children, fanbois, haters, or whatever, just that when, and only when, they stop presenting themselves as such and can hold an objective discussion. I only wanted to insult those who saw themselves in my statement... You didnt did you?
Well said, Roadshow.
And I forgot to say earlier... what?? auto-attack function? There is no auto-function in TR, unlike in many mmo's... not sure what you're referring to, sadeyx.
Pasha Dobry- 39 Engy in the un-official, un-uber-1337 TR clan, Ad Idem.
I could not disagree with you more. The last thing we need is gamers running everything. Too many developers are making games that they want to play instead of games that their customers want to play. We need more people in the industry that understands and uses standard business practices (such as milestones and proper management procedures).
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
I could not disagree with you more. The last thing we need is gamers running everything. Too many developers are making games that they want to play instead of games that their customers want to play. We need more people in the industry that understands and uses standard business practices (such as milestones and proper management procedures).
Tbh, even EA disagree with you with their current 'city state' managment philosophy... They seem to believe that teams such as Mythic should just be left alone to be creaitve and call their own shots with milestones etc. What you are saying about 'standard' business practices is pretty much widely recognised to be exactly the wrong way to handle a creative process, such as creating a game.
You misunderstand, alow me to clarify.
There is a difference between hundreds of single clicks than keeping your finger pressed on the mouse key and occasionally letting go!
Also, in games like wow there is a great deal more keyboard key pressing, you are not required to keep your hand tightly gripped on the mouse (to aim) at the same time as keeping a click held pressed for lengthy amounts of time. at the same time as manouvering the mouse accuratly.
This constant strain on your hand is what I refer to as the 'shooting' Even on an FPS which requires a dexterity and hand eye coordination you are rarly in a situation where you are also constantly keeping pressure on your finger.
This is how TR differs, on most mmo's ive played you can operate perfectly well while not even having to use the mouse, TR forces you to use it.. and use it excesivly, which is monotonous and boring. (eventually)
Your correct, it is wrong, since it isnt a 'point and click' if it were as simple as that it wouldnt be as bad at all.
I dont see how you feel its 'easier' than wow, cmon man, give the game SOME credit! Wow is for kids..wow is essentially the easiest game I ever played (for 14 days) no skill is required in Wow, and thats why its so bloody popular! its just timing. Tabula rasa at least has aiming!
You didn't try playing as an engineer or even a biotech then. No escaping from skill use there. This isn't a flaw in the game, it's you not liking it.
I disagree, I did like it. and yes I didnt play a bio tech simply because it got tedious before then.
See my comments above about shooting. Your right, there is nothing 'wrong' with shooting, but in Battlefield there is way more! that 'just shooting' Every single class kinda MUST have its basic shooting skill maxed. Its un avoidable. so its more a lack of variety within EVERY class, not just one class.
The things which make each class different dont make the class unique, and since you have to keep all your skill points and grind away to level 30 before you can pick your third class tree.. and then grind hiedously more.. its just... grinding... and shooting constantly. There is no break from it..
Anyway, This isnt a debate about the game and your arguments mean nothing in light of the fact that is IS failing! and as much as you may like it you will soon move on since there just wont be enough people playing it, there wont be content updates as much, things wont get fixed as quickly, customer service is slow...
All these things which stopped me from playing vanguard! Again, another brilliant game.. let down by its population and other troubles.
Simple - thats the word i use to discribe TR from day 1 in the beta we testers was saying that the game has hardly any content and the character devolopment was too simple which produced clones. The devs promised more content better quests better character system and never produced that. TR was a great concept let down by try to make the game too simple and trying to stay away from the standard MMO feactures but not offering alternatives to the feactures they stayed clear off. I remember a poll on the ncsoft beta forums that asked how long TR would last until it gets canned 1 year was the general thought. Earthrise is going to kill TR when that hits the shops.
Is that not the cost of buying Destination Games - and the money paid to the Garriott brothers?
Personally I wouldnt count that as a TR development cost as the game had barely begun development in 2001.
Which to say in other words is a business expense made by NcSoft for the creation, development, and release of TR. Perhaps not a direct cost with the scope of development, but this is associated with the full budgeting of TR.The full expense for bringing TR to the market, as well as to maintain operations until out of the red, is great (I'm siding around $75 million), which I think makes this title the most expensive MMO Title to be released.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
So using your accounting method - EA bought Pandemic & bioware for $620 million.
So when Bioware releases their mmorpg its development cost would be around $340 million.
Which would be the case, however; Bioware has more assets which dilutes that expense onto other fields, projects and IP's. Such an expense is not carried completely over onto just the new MMO in the works.
Whereas with Garrot's company, his company only had one project and the assets were dedicated to that project.
Try again.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
I would just like to point ou a few things.
1) Yes most journalism/journalists have an agenda to their article. Journalism although in principle is about objectivity, but in reality its never objective. Journalism is not a science nor is it an art, its the politics of the public. However although journlists do tend to some form of bias and push some sort of agenda, they still do a more credible job than official press releases. Most published articles require some form of fact checking and some form of research. The so called 'inflammatory ' writer in order to get his article published had to at least do some digging and come to a conclusions from the research. If you read the offical press reply from NCSoft they didn't condem the writer for providing the 'wrong' facts but instead critisize the writer for his 'anti NCSOFT' tone. The key here is never trust 100% the 'official press' , especially when it deals with a mega corporation and a financially sensative product of own. So when a corporation says 'disappointed', the word 'disaster' is probably closer to the truth.
2) TR is fun to play in the short term but fails miserably as a mega-budget MMORPG. Where ithe game really failed was that TR was trying to be everything for everyone. TR wanted to be your UO, your WoW, your UT, your Auto Assault, your Team Fortress, but in the end it failed on all accounts. It lacks the depth of lore your classic fantasy MMO, it also lacks the freedom of a Sandbox game, nor is it full of action like your FPS games, and probably most importantly TR lacks that 'fun' appeal that has made WoW so successful across the world. Put it simply TR has no 'hook' to it.
3) TR has no 'real' content. The only content TR has is a semi-interesting but very linear storyline and a series to quests to get a player through it. It's plays out exactly like a single player 3rd person shooter. In fact the only 'MMO' aspect of it is that it just happens other people are playing through the same storyline as you at the same time.
There's no player-driven economy, no character development, no crafting system, no guild system, no factional conflicts, no pvp, no end-game, it dosnt even have dungeons to raid. The only content TR has right now is a stretched out PvE game where you pay $15 a month to fight against badly scripted AI.
4) NCSoft was hoping to use TR as the starting point to launch itself into the sci-fi MMO market in the West, but it turned out to be a huge financial gamble that failed miserably. I remember a few months ago it was leaked that the NCSoft board were not at all impressed with the performance of Richard Garriot and the TR project and wanted to cut down investment, but the executive gave Mr. Garriot his full backing, it seems now that the financial results have vindicated the board. In further evidence, not only is NCSoft downsizing its headquarters in Austin, it has also announced the cancellation one of its other proposed sci-fi MMO projects Blackstar. It seems that the huge disaster that TR has proved to be has caused NCSoft to re-assess its market strategies and move away from the sci-fi genre and distancing itself from further developments in TR.
Well said.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Just a note about the UI comments. You can change the UI from FPS/MMO style if you want. Ive studied and applied UID (User Interface Design) for 20 years in the game industry. I can tell you it is very logical to click the index finger to fire your weapon in the game. Think about it hard enough and you can probably figure out why that is. It has something to do with your "trigger finger."
As far as I can see most of the information I am reading here is completly wrong about the game. Please, if you want to know something about a game, experience it for yourself, and take the time while you are doing that to really learn the game. First impressions are rarely accurate. I make a habbit to not comment on a game unless I've spanned the entire level range. I often find that what I would have said sooner would have been much different. It also gives me the time to find the thing I was not aware of like the auctions house/economy, dungeons/caves, Clans, and crafting areas...and so forth. All of which *are* in Tabula Rasa.
Tabula Rasa is a decent MMO, its not perfect, but none are.
More importantly there is an obvious connection between how much time we are willing to spend testing a game, and how quickly we are to form an opinion about it. Both of which speak volumes about this community. I've been monitoring these forums for about a year, and I am surprised to see that a large majority of the user based information is inaccurate. If you want information on a game, or to critic it. I highly suggest you go to the game companies forums, where you will get the real facts. People feel free to post what ever they want here because they think no one is watching, or of any autority to correct them. Leaving the floor open to misinformatiin on a massive scale. Take it for what it is worth.
Unfortunately - there is no T.R game forum. Lots of good fan sites though.
you dont instantly make back all the development costs within a year. it takes time. but Tabula Rasa did not shake up the industry
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads