I noticed a few people in this thread talked about NwN. A fantastic, and very heavy RP world, that is currently using NwN is Layonara. Check it out, you will not be disappointed if you are indeed looking for a heavy RP world with a dedicated RP community and GM team. www.layonara.com
In fact I do care for the other people on the server more than for game features. The other people are the reason to play an MMO. Otherwise a single-player would be much more fun. And I do care for the other people mostly because of roleplay reasons.
Maybeplayinf on a small RP-World is not so much different, than what you do. You join an RP-guild and ignore the rest of the server-population. I join an small game with a small RP-server. We don´t have more (maybe even less) people than your guild.
But why should I want to play an MMO and pay for it, when I don´t want to play with most of the people anyway? And when most of the people only interrupt with the RP instead of joining in?
If you ever have played on an NWN hardcore RP-world and also in an RP-guild in an MMO with many Non-RPers, you will know the difference. It´s gigantic!
You can do so many things, when all the people respond to your RP. Things that will never be possible in an MMO. It starts with playing a town guard (and people allowing themselfs to be stoped and/or even arrested) and does not end with becoming the respected major of a town.
NWN-world are small and don´t have so many players. But they are much more interactive. And people work together and not against each other.
Personally, I don't think Darkfall will really have all that many PvPers with no sense of vocabulary simply because the game will be out-shined by most of the bigger games like WAR, AoC, and of course people will still play WoW.
But that's besides the point. One thing I think a lot of RPers don't understand is that PvP is a huge part of RP in a RP game. In real life you could get into a fight with anyone you wanted, although it generally wouldn't be smart. Having FFA PvP is great for RP purposes. I heard someone say they played a guard and someone "let" themselves get caught. I'd much rather have a game where they got caught because the guard actually caught them.
I'm sick of guards that are so weak that a player can take 4 of them on and win without a sweat. If I designed a game with guards and someone started doing wrong, those guards would MESS. YOU. UP. Think about it, these guards are trained to beat the living crap out of people that are causing problems. Some hot shot mercenary isn't gonna just be able to come along and drop guards left and right. That's what happens in action movies, not real life.
Also, what's with these games where you can charge into this valley of fire and aggrivate 20 fire-breathing monsters and kill them all? I'd want a game where if you try to kill 6 bears you're gonna get torn to shreads. If the game had perma-death, this would make people extremely wary about charging into a cave full of gremlins or whatever.
If I designed an MMO...If you ran up and killed someone (another player) completely unprovoked and there was nothing lore-wise to support your action, you'd have guards on your ass. It wouldn't just be for a little while either, no hiding for x seconds to get them off your tail. These guards aren't complete idiots. Though there are other ways to try to get guards on your side, such as bribery.
I would absolutely love to see a game like this and I would be heavily motivated to RP in it.
Personally, I don't think Darkfall will really have all that many PvPers with no sense of vocabulary simply because the game will be out-shined by most of the bigger games like WAR, AoC, and of course people will still play WoW. But that's besides the point. One thing I think a lot of RPers don't understand is that PvP is a huge part of RP in a RP game. In real life you could get into a fight with anyone you wanted, although it generally wouldn't be smart. Having FFA PvP is great for RP purposes. I heard someone say they played a guard and someone "let" themselves get caught. I'd much rather have a game where they got caught because the guard actually caught them. I'm sick of guards that are so weak that a player can take 4 of them on and win without a sweat. If I designed a game with guards and someone started doing wrong, those guards would MESS. YOU. UP. Think about it, these guards are trained to beat the living crap out of people that are causing problems. Some hot shot mercenary isn't gonna just be able to come along and drop guards left and right. That's what happens in action movies, not real life. Also, what's with these games where you can charge into this valley of fire and aggrivate 20 fire-breathing monsters and kill them all? I'd want a game where if you try to kill 6 bears you're gonna get torn to shreads. If the game had perma-death, this would make people extremely wary about charging into a cave full of gremlins or whatever. If I designed an MMO...If you ran up and killed someone (another player) completely unprovoked and there was nothing lore-wise to support your action, you'd have guards on your ass. It wouldn't just be for a little while either, no hiding for x seconds to get them off your tail. These guards aren't complete idiots. Though there are other ways to try to get guards on your side, such as bribery. I would absolutely love to see a game like this and I would be heavily motivated to RP in it.
I agree. To add, I think that "allowing" yourself to get caught is a sign of artificial barriers in a game. RP is replicating real life or what a person might actually do in real life. No one, if they did something wrong, is going to let themselves get caught. They will run if they don't think they can win the fight or they will fight if they think they have a chance. A game with FFA PvP allows for these situations, whereas this NWN PW sounds like it has artificial barriers.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
In fact I am playing on a server, which has PvP. But it´s a rare event. Not a constant fighting and do nothing else game. We also have perma death. If a character dies in a PvP situation (not in fighting artificial monsters), it´s dead. Game over!
I thinks, this is realistic . Everybody is careful and thinks twice, if a conflict should end in PvP.
But it´s only the characters having a conflict anyway. The players get along quite well with each other. We know each other (not in real life, but after many hours of playing quite well, I think). That´s why I would not kill another character in a PvP duell, if the player does not agree with this.
But I thinks this discussion does not lead to anything anyway. As I said, it´s just a matter of taste and nothing else. If you prefer to play a big MMO, play it. I prefer my small RP-world, because of it´s great atmosphere.
EDIT: And of course the characters will try to run away, but the players don´t misuse game mechanics, so their character can´t be caught. If the game mechanics don´t make arresting someone possible, the player allows his character to get caught . That´s when our DMs come in . But it´s rarly necessary. That´s what RP is all about. Responding to the RP of the guards player, even though game mechanics make it possible to ignore the guard and walk straight through him.
Neverwinter Nights 2 persistant worlds. Not an MMO but just a game with a multiplayer function. There are servers where up to 60 (or soon even 90 as I was told) players can play together. And there are servers for all kind of tastes (PvP, hardcore RP, perma death or not ...).
*sigh* who even needs anything beyond words to roleplay anyway? Having done a couple of systems that relied on just 1d6 and a lot of talking skills its impressive that roleplayers are wanting to be "limited" by other systems to make it more real for them (granted it could also be highly UNreal for another die hard roleplayer)
Nah. I've tried a word-based mmorpg (Guild Wars) where the character actions were so limited that the players mostly relied on gathering in outposts, sitting down and talking. It wasn't very entertaining, but I guess it's all about what you're used to. I bet pen and paper RP can also be fun for that matter, though I had to give it up after a few poor, unsucessful attempts. But many of those who would rather RP on mmorpgs do it for the visual part. It's just a personal opinion, but I would love to actually -see- my character sit, laugh, walk, sneak and fight another character.
So far, many interesting points have been made in this thread. (We're still doing an unofficial market analysis. Note unofficial, I'm still studying this and we won't make any fancyass game... in the nearest future.) To sum up a bit , it seems as if many think a roleplaybased mmorpg should be as strict and realistic as possible. After going on a game-testing spree, hearing the opinions on this board and asking other RPers, we found out that any mmorpg should, above all, be satisfying. After testing the games for RP possibilities, (WoW, GW, KOTOR, EQ2, ect etc) we ended up with the usual "Good, but... something is missing."
My conclusion is that a possible mmorpg for roleplayers should be as satisfying as possible. That's why, I'm against realistic games where the characters die permanently, no magic, dragons, ect. Let me explain:
What happens in RP? Action. Action, blood and intrigues. Mostly guild feuds or complicated love affairs. A very few would be satisfied with playing your average peasant who never walks out of the village because he would be killed by wolves and bears. Players need to be able to create a character they feel is unique. The whole meaning with RP (imo) is to be able to escape reality and do something impossible. Players want to play a brave hero, a clever thief, a powerful mage, not a John or Tom who is killed on his first attempt at fighting a monster or arrested for his first crime. Sure, a universe where everyone is awesome isn't realistic, but it pleases. (And good roleplayers would create weaker bi-characters if their storyline requires it anyway)
If I was in charge of making a mmorpg, I'd rather focus on:
Graphics and design. It should keep the eye happy. It's mentioned before, but such a game must have an advanced character creation sheet, all the basic emotes such as walking, sitting, sleeping, and I'd also add things like being able to carry other characters (Man, this was annoying in the mmorpgs I've tried. "No, we're not walking in a row. I'm carrying her!") and generally ensure that players had tons of emotes and actions to choose from, all put in a systematic, easy-to-browse system. Graphics and design also refer to environment, costumes and details. You can have an awesome story, tons of races/classes/professions, a well-functioning duel/fight system and it will still make me wince if the character's feet and arms look like lego-squares.
It should be the game developers' responsibility to ensure that the RP doesn't turn one-sided by constantly adding new challenges. Pirate-raids, new threats, ect. I'm honestly not sure how this can be done correctly to keep the RP varied, but I believe it would make the game more exciting anyway, and some RPers would probably take advantage of such in-game events as they would give consequences for their characters. (A wild idea that crossed my mind would be to have a few GMs with the sole purpose of making trouble by controlling various enemies, monsters, criminal clans since RP with computer-controlled chars doesn't work well.)
I think the challenge is not to re-create an online society where everything is as realistic as possible, but to keep the majority of the players content. And people want bread and circus after all. I would make a game that visually depended little on imagination and much on creativity. Varietas delectat.
I realize however that there are lots of challenges coming with my idea, but problems like invincible characters, dissatisfying/unfair pvp systems, guides for newcomers and how to prevent people from ruining gameplay by going OoC have already been mentioned and should of course be considered as the game is worked on.
I just wish that game developers would see what previously released mmorpgs lack and improve, instead of releasing game after game with the same minor but annoying flaws. *coughs in Aion's direction*
*sigh* who even needs anything beyond words to roleplay anyway? Having done a couple of systems that relied on just 1d6 and a lot of talking skills its impressive that roleplayers are wanting to be "limited" by other systems to make it more real for them (granted it could also be highly UNreal for another die hard roleplayer)
Nah. I've tried a word-based mmorpg (Guild Wars) where the character actions were so limited that the players mostly relied on gathering in outposts, sitting down and talking. It wasn't very entertaining, but I guess it's all about what you're used to. I bet pen and paper RP can also be fun for that matter, though I had to give it up after a few poor, unsucessful attempts. But many of those who would rather RP on mmorpgs do it for the visual part. It's just a personal opinion, but I would love to actually -see- my character sit, laugh, walk, sneak and fight another character.
So far, many interesting points have been made in this thread. (We're still doing an unofficial market analysis. Note unofficial, I'm still studying this and we won't make any fancyass game... in the nearest future.) To sum up a bit , it seems as if many think a roleplaybased mmorpg should be as strict and realistic as possible. After going on a game-testing spree, hearing the opinions on this board and asking other RPers, we found out that any mmorpg should, above all, be satisfying. After testing the games for RP possibilities, (WoW, GW, KOTOR, EQ2, ect etc) we ended up with the usual "Good, but... something is missing."
My conclusion is that a possible mmorpg for roleplayers should be as satisfying as possible. That's why, I'm against realistic games where the characters die permanently, no magic, dragons, ect. Let me explain:
What happens in RP? Action. Action, blood and intrigues. Mostly guild feuds or complicated love affairs. A very few would be satisfied with playing your average peasant who never walks out of the village because he would be killed by wolves and bears. Players need to be able to create a character they feel is unique. The whole meaning with RP (imo) is to be able to escape reality and do something impossible. Players want to play a brave hero, a clever thief, a powerful mage, not a John or Tom who is killed on his first attempt at fighting a monster or arrested for his first crime. Sure, a universe where everyone is awesome isn't realistic, but it pleases. (And good roleplayers would create weaker bi-characters if their storyline requires it anyway)
If I was in charge of making a mmorpg, I'd rather focus on:
Graphics and design. It should keep the eye happy. It's mentioned before, but such a game must have an advanced character creation sheet, all the basic emotes such as walking, sitting, sleeping, and I'd also add things like being able to carry other characters (Man, this was annoying in the mmorpgs I've tried. "No, we're not walking in a row. I'm carrying her!") and generally ensure that players had tons of emotes and actions to choose from, all put in a systematic, easy-to-browse system. Graphics and design also refer to environment, costumes and details. You can have an awesome story, tons of races/classes/professions, a well-functioning duel/fight system and it will still make me wince if the character's feet and arms look like lego-squares.
It should be the game developers' responsibility to ensure that the RP doesn't turn one-sided by constantly adding new challenges. Pirate-raids, new threats, ect. I'm honestly not sure how this can be done correctly to keep the RP varied, but I believe it would make the game more exciting anyway, and some RPers would probably take advantage of such in-game events as they would give consequences for their characters. (A wild idea that crossed my mind would be to have a few GMs with the sole purpose of making trouble by controlling various enemies, monsters, criminal clans since RP with computer-controlled chars doesn't work well.)
I think the challenge is not to re-create an online society where everything is as realistic as possible, but to keep the majority of the players content. And people want bread and circus after all. I would make a game that visually depended little on imagination and much on creativity. Varietas delectat.
I realize however that there are lots of challenges coming with my idea, but problems like invincible characters, dissatisfying/unfair pvp systems, guides for newcomers and how to prevent people from ruining gameplay by going OoC have already been mentioned and should of course be considered as the game is worked on.
I just wish that game developers would see what previously released mmorpgs lack and improve, instead of releasing game after game with the same minor but annoying flaws. *coughs in Aion's direction*
I really have nothing to add, just read this post.
I agree with what Ceallach writes about grafics. Good grafics are important.
But I don´t agree with most of the rest.
I don´t want action and blood. Or if this things are in a game, I don´t care much for them. It´s important, the game offers some satisfaction for me also. And this doesn´t come from slaying monsters or other players. In fact such activities are rather boring in my eyes. I prefer to roleplay an everyday person (like e.g. a farmer). It´s important, I don´t have to slay monsters to get anywhere in a game. What´s fun to me is e.g. crafting and economics. If the economy is really player based and I manage to afford myself a house (maybe a farmhouse), am able to decorate it and or to buy myself some new clothes (not armor), I am happy.
Sounds boring to most of you? Yes maybe it is. But I think, a game has to be satisfaying for more than just one kind of player. And I am for sure not the average MMO-player, you can find usually in such a game or who posts usually here on this bords. That´s why you won´t get answers like mine very often.
I am female and more than 30 years old. That´s alone a fact, which separates me from the average MMO-player. And If I don´t play Neverwinter Nights 2, I play games like Ceasar, Pharao or the The Seddlers (the old city-building games). I have never played a shooter game.
A few days ago I have read some statistics. It says about the following: It was assumed, women would like to play multiplayer games, because of their social components (talking to others etc.) and therefore games with a multiplayer function or even MMOs would attract female players.
But the findings where completly different. While many women play games nowadays, only very few play MMOs. In this statistics it said only about 3 - 4% (it´s a german statistic, may not be true in all the world).
In fact during my own time playing I did not meet many other women and I don´t know one single woman, who does play an MMO (most my age love The Seddlers or such games). Of course there are many female chars, but it´s men or boys playing them. And some women do play because of their boyfriends or husband - not because it´s really fun to them (one said to me once, it´s the only way to make her husband talk to her - if she does not get him off the computer, she plays with him).
I think MMOs are missing the female part. Like a movie with only male actors, which consists of only action scenes and no talking and love scenes. This may be an inconvinient finding and not very convincing in times of emancipation. But I really don´t think emancipation has anything to do with us women becoming like men and sharing all of their interests.
MMOs are a male dominated genre and therefore the male players always get more of the features they like and the women get nothing.
Of course I am exaggerating this a little bit and of course there are women, who like to play action games too. But I also think, there is some truth in this. Many game designers want to make women play their games. I have seen another questionaire a few week ago. It had the title: "How can we make women like our shooter-games?". This question itself is crazy, from a female perspective. I don´t like shooters. They are boring. Nothing else to add to this. My answer was of course: "Don´t try to change us, change the games. Do away with the shooting and put in social gameplay".
O.k. I hear the shouting again: "We don´t want a game like the Sims! How terrible, how boring".
But I admit, I am female. I may not meet most male players standards. But I don´t care about this. I am not a teenager anymore. I don´t have to show the boys, what a cool girl I am. And I admit I like the Sims, I like building houses, I like crafting and playing an everyday character and not a hero. Why should I want to be a hero? I am what I am and I am very satisfayed with myself .
I only wish, there where more games (online games, because I do like to play with others!), which meet my interests.
Hm, hm... I think you got me wrong, Lilalu. We wouldn't want to make a game full of action and blood - only. All I said is that an overly realistic game where your character dies at the first attempt at fighting a beast (and dies permanently) would be boring for most people. Most (I say most, there are so many opinions out there and you cannot satisfy everyone) people don't want to play a game where it takes you one year to create a decent warrior (who still would be wiped out by a dragon, cause, well, that's realistic) It doesn't have to do much with action, only with the fact that most people want to do and see things that don't occur in real life. And hey, no one would force action upon you. If you want to RP an average peasant, that would also be possible. (You'd even gain respect from other players for being different is my guess) The whole point with a roleplaybased MMO is the freedom to choose, right? Which can be hard in a game with a strict, realistic system.
Imagine a game with permanent death. You're a newcomer who aren't completely sure of how things work yet. You spend 2-3 hours getting out of the tutorial area, you feel bold and attack a bear - and die.
Or you're a veteran who played your character for nearly two years, you plan on marrying another character or start your own tavern - and are accidently killed by bandits. That would please a small part of the customers - the most hardcore ones - but would make a great deal of less hardcore players back out from the game rather fast.
The best solution I can conjure for the "RP death" problem is to have resurrection - however - as this can tempt people to go a little bananas (Once witnessed an assassin resurrect 3 times in one evening) it should take a lot to be resurrected (valuable items, assistance from an ally) + death penalty in the form of a temporary (1-2 weeks) ban of the character. That should sting enough to not make players get reckless.
Imagine a game where everyone start out as a weak, average, everyday-life person. The tedious progress of climbing the social ladder is too frustrating for someone who wants action. While this might be what you prefer - which is fine - I still think the system shouldn't be so strict.
But no, I'm not after making a huge action-and-blood filled game for guys. I'm a - le gasp - female as well, and while I personally think combat is pure love and conspiracies and plot twisters make me squeal like a little girl, I'm aware that too many MMOs don't satisfy the interests of female players because of too much hack & slash. But again, variety. Theoretically, we want to reach the general customers - which means both sexes. If you prefer crafting, leave the fighting to the other players and play a merchant. There's nothing wrong with that.
(Let me tell you something. When I RPed on WoW, there were a lot of players, female and male who barely knew what combat meant. They focused on crafting, spent time on long discussions in taverns and hired escorts if they wanted to travel. The rest could create as much action as they wanted. It worked. WoW is far from ideal - it doesn't provide enough opportunities to advance without combat as you actually need to fight to get really wealthy, gain materials, ect - but at least you could choose to be average or super-strong. I think however that many female players have a lot of wrong ideas concerning MMOs. For example, my female friends run as soon as they see something related to WoW, saying it's "only hack & slash for boys". But it doesn't have to be like that. )
The problem is, most MMO players nowadays are male teenagers . They want to be little heros with big stuff and they want to get everything quickly. Don´t get me wrong. I think male (and sometimes female) teenagers should be allowed to have fun too and therefore there should be such games.
But when it is easy in a game to accomplish this, a majority of little superheros in great gear will run trough the game .
And I really don´t think, a game with an average player base like this will ever be of any interest to me. Their interests are just to different from my own and (no offence meant to anybody!) the atmosphere in such a game to me seems just ridiculous. And that´s, what most women my age think and therefore most don´t play this games.
No, I really don´t think I would have fun, playing a lonley crafter, while all the others just run about slaying monsters and making a fool of themselfs, because they get excited so much about the new pixel-sword they got.
I really don´t think, there will ever be a game which suits everbody. That´s what game designers try to do. And that´s a mistake! They will never succed, because people are different. What is fun for a 14 year old boy, is just plain boring to me and the other way round.
And I think game designers ask the wrong people mostly. They ask the gamers, what they want. Ask those, who do not play MMOs, why they don´t. Than you will know, what most games are missing .
I've pointed that out before and I've gotten the answer that just because developers are making money, it doesn't matter to them if they're missing a huge segment of the market, so long as they're making a buck doing what they're doing.
I agree with you, I have no interest in mindless death and destruction, I'm a roleplayer first and a PvPer... not at all. I have no interest in hack and slash and gear grinding, those things bore the hell out of me and I want nothing to do with them.
What I do want simply doesn't exist in the MMO market at all. The people who seem to think there is roleplaying out there seem to view it in the Final Fantasy mold, being dragged by the nose through a barely interactive story that you have no real control over. That's not roleplaying, that's reading a book. I want more. I just can't find it.
I simply don't look for role playing opportunities in MMOs. I like to role play in forums, IM and such. However, when I role play, the number one thing I like to do in a role play is fight people. A battle between two skilled role players is probably the best reading I've ever had. I like violence and warfare. I love the art in it. A sword fight between two masters of the art is quite a beautiful thing.
I like medieval fantasy as well as futuristic science fiction. The reason is I find reality to be extremely boring. In medieval times there were knights who dressed in plate mail and had jousts (sp?) and sword fights. The future hasn't happened yet so, a story based in it can be about anything.
I really wish I could find more people that like my kind of role play.
I'm exactly the opposite, I don't want combat. I look upon combat as a failure, not as a success. If you're really interested in roleplaying a single character long-term, putting them in the way of bodily harm is silly, combat should be the very last resort, not the first.
Yes, I agree with Cephus here. Life in Middle ages was short. People did not get old. When you really want that feeling, you should play NWN 2 on a permadeath server. People don´t fight constantly there, because fighting is what it should be - dangerous.
To each their own I guess. I'm someone who believes in learning to solve conflict over avoiding it. The reason I role play or play video games is because I want an escape from reality. I want a place where I can do things I never could in the real world. In real life I wouldn't live long if I got into fights all the time, in video games this can be possible. I don't mind losing some realism in order to be able to do what I want. Obviously you guys don't care for this so a game like I'm describing wouldn't work well for you. This brings us back to the point that no MMO could possibly cator to the wants of everyone.
Beating the crap out of someone is not "dealing with conflict" sorry. I have no reason to escape from reality, I'm very happy with reality. Roleplaying provides a way to exercise the gray matter upstairs and perhaps see things from new and interesting viewpoints. That's not to say that your way is wrong, everyone's enjoyment is subjective, I'm just tired of there being *NO* MMOs for what I want, and *ALL* of them for what you want.
Yes, I agree with Cephus. I am an optimistic and rather happy person. I really don´t miss being able to fight someone in real life.
I prefer to have fun with people instead of fighting them. Playing a roleplaying-game for me is nothing but fun in my spare time. It´s better than watching a movie or reading a book. It´s not just consuming, what others wrote or made up. I am actually creating a great roleplaying-story together with my fellow players. Roleplaying for me is interactive creativity. It´s a great experience and I would not want to miss this in my life.
But I agree, there have to be different games for different people. Games should be fun and everybody should be able to get what he/she is looking for.
Originally posted by Lilalu But I agree, there have to be different games for different people. Games should be fun and everybody should be able to get what he/she is looking for.
True. But I still believe in the general game. Currently setting up a detailed list of what such a game - from a roleplayer perspective - should contain. MMOs differ from other games because they can be rather wide and frequently updated. Sure, some basic things have to be set (Genre and design style), but a MMO should appeal to a larger part of the audience than a regular RPG or shooter game does.
The problem with too specific games is that they don't live long. A MMO based on the Hello Kitty or Simpson universe will only attract a few, specially interested players, and it's hard to keep the communities alive (which makes us poor developers aka moneybags very sad. ) I think it's better to have a MMO which satisfies many of the customers' interests.
On the other hand, you cannot satisfy everyone. This is why game developers should instead try to "correct mistakes" seen in previous games and be more innovative.
Sorry for being so blunt, but currently there's just so much crap on the market, and yet I don't see much progress. Same systems, same purposes packed in new wrapping paper. In older days *grandma voice* there was at least a slight change in graphics for each new game, always a little better adjustment of game flow, more creativity. I don't expect the current trend to change though. *waves with dollar slip*
But I don´t think, there ever will be a "general" game. There is not one general game and never will be. Games (especially MMOs) in my eyes are nothing but another media.
Like the more traditional media (e.g. movies, books), they can have many purposes. They can be used for entertainment, but also e.g. for education. Nowadays almost every houshold in my country has internet access. MMOs in a few years can become what TV is now. And almost everyone could play them.
As it is now, only a small percentage of the people is interested in MMOs. But MMOs really could become a mass medium.
The children might play for their school lessons (why not teach history in an e.g. medieval MMO - not a fighting RPG of course) , the older brother might have fun playing a fighting game like Master_Razor wants it, the younger sister "My Pony Farm Online" , the parents a hardcore roleplaying game and grandma might grow her plants in "My Fantasy Garden Online", if she can´t afford to have a real garden. She could also compete with her garden neighbor, who has the most beautiful roses .
Sounds crazy, hm? But why not? Do you really think, grandma will want to fight Master_Razor in a hardcore PvP fight? O.k. just joking about the roses and some grandmas maybe like to fight .
Because of technical advancements, it also will become cheaper to develop games in the future.
Of course there always will be "mainstream" games to. But as it is with movies, why shouldn´t there be also non-mainstream productions or different games for different people and purposes?
Beating the crap out of someone is not "dealing with conflict" sorry. I have no reason to escape from reality, I'm very happy with reality. Roleplaying provides a way to exercise the gray matter upstairs and perhaps see things from new and interesting viewpoints. That's not to say that your way is wrong, everyone's enjoyment is subjective, I'm just tired of there being *NO* MMOs for what I want,and *ALL* of them for what you want.
Violence can, has, and does solve conflicts, but that's besides the point.
I actually am not currently playing an MMO because they don't have what I want. While I want fighting and wars, I care a whole lot more about game mechanics like how much farming I have to do.
You are completely right. Even just within the "MMOs for entertaiment" branch, there are bound to be all sorts of games in order to have a variety in genres. Real life, sci-fi, medieval, and so on and so on. I'm all for non-mainstream productions of MMOs. The problem with these is that they tend to die rather fast (and then why invest money and time in them when you can use old technology to produce another specific but mediocre game aimed at a small part of the customers?)
I'd say your description was a little ambitionous though. Games should be games. We want a variety in media as well, and it would be bad if the MMOs (and virtual reality in general) took over too much. So let grandma grow her flowers in real life. *laughs* But that's a completely different issue - I digress.
To stay on topic: It may not be possible to create a game which both Master_Razor and grandma enjoy, but I think (being my ambitionous self) that it should be possible to create a game where the majorty of roleplaying gamers, provided that they're interested in the genre and design of the said game, are satisfied. Sure, if the game was sci-fi for example, medieval fantasy fans wouldn't even look at it. But those who are into swords and fireballs would enjoy it whether they want to fight criminal groups, or form families and sell pelts. After all, it's up to the players to create the story, no?
Not claiming anything though. It's just a theory, so it might never work in reality for all I know. But take a look at PlaneShift for instance, where you can be rewarded both for living as an adventurer and as a normal citizen.
Yes, you are right again. Of course I was exaggerating my description a little bit and I would not want MMOs to take over to much .
But books did not vanish, because we have TV now. I still like to read a good novel sometimes. I also enjoy watching a movie on TV and roleplaying online. I don´t think we will get some kind of MATRIX-reality, just because MMOs become interesting to a broader audience and not only to the average gamer.
And grandma (I start to get fond of her ) may enjoy her Online garden, when she lives in a big city and does not have a garden in real life.
Unfortunatly it´s not a matter of game design, if people get along with each other or not. It´s the people themselfs, who are the problem in online games. The bigger the game, the more people there are, the bigger the problem. Publishers of online games will have to face this in the future and they actually have to deal with this already. It´s a not at all cheap problem, because every customer may drive away another potential costumer.
Because yes, adventurers and others could get along with each other, you can design a game, that´s rewarding to both groups. But they very often don´t get along well with each other anyway. And then there still is the problem between roleplayers and non-roleplayers ....
I am really happy, I am not in the games industries .
Comments
I noticed a few people in this thread talked about NwN. A fantastic, and very heavy RP world, that is currently using NwN is Layonara. Check it out, you will not be disappointed if you are indeed looking for a heavy RP world with a dedicated RP community and GM team. www.layonara.com
Great, can we have an RP game that isn't fantasy please?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
In fact I do care for the other people on the server more than for game features. The other people are the reason to play an MMO. Otherwise a single-player would be much more fun. And I do care for the other people mostly because of roleplay reasons.
Maybeplayinf on a small RP-World is not so much different, than what you do. You join an RP-guild and ignore the rest of the server-population. I join an small game with a small RP-server. We don´t have more (maybe even less) people than your guild.
But why should I want to play an MMO and pay for it, when I don´t want to play with most of the people anyway? And when most of the people only interrupt with the RP instead of joining in?
If you ever have played on an NWN hardcore RP-world and also in an RP-guild in an MMO with many Non-RPers, you will know the difference. It´s gigantic!
You can do so many things, when all the people respond to your RP. Things that will never be possible in an MMO. It starts with playing a town guard (and people allowing themselfs to be stoped and/or even arrested) and does not end with becoming the respected major of a town.
NWN-world are small and don´t have so many players. But they are much more interactive. And people work together and not against each other.
Personally, I don't think Darkfall will really have all that many PvPers with no sense of vocabulary simply because the game will be out-shined by most of the bigger games like WAR, AoC, and of course people will still play WoW.
But that's besides the point. One thing I think a lot of RPers don't understand is that PvP is a huge part of RP in a RP game. In real life you could get into a fight with anyone you wanted, although it generally wouldn't be smart. Having FFA PvP is great for RP purposes. I heard someone say they played a guard and someone "let" themselves get caught. I'd much rather have a game where they got caught because the guard actually caught them.
I'm sick of guards that are so weak that a player can take 4 of them on and win without a sweat. If I designed a game with guards and someone started doing wrong, those guards would MESS. YOU. UP. Think about it, these guards are trained to beat the living crap out of people that are causing problems. Some hot shot mercenary isn't gonna just be able to come along and drop guards left and right. That's what happens in action movies, not real life.
Also, what's with these games where you can charge into this valley of fire and aggrivate 20 fire-breathing monsters and kill them all? I'd want a game where if you try to kill 6 bears you're gonna get torn to shreads. If the game had perma-death, this would make people extremely wary about charging into a cave full of gremlins or whatever.
If I designed an MMO...If you ran up and killed someone (another player) completely unprovoked and there was nothing lore-wise to support your action, you'd have guards on your ass. It wouldn't just be for a little while either, no hiding for x seconds to get them off your tail. These guards aren't complete idiots. Though there are other ways to try to get guards on your side, such as bribery.
I would absolutely love to see a game like this and I would be heavily motivated to RP in it.
I agree. To add, I think that "allowing" yourself to get caught is a sign of artificial barriers in a game. RP is replicating real life or what a person might actually do in real life. No one, if they did something wrong, is going to let themselves get caught. They will run if they don't think they can win the fight or they will fight if they think they have a chance. A game with FFA PvP allows for these situations, whereas this NWN PW sounds like it has artificial barriers.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
In fact I am playing on a server, which has PvP. But it´s a rare event. Not a constant fighting and do nothing else game. We also have perma death. If a character dies in a PvP situation (not in fighting artificial monsters), it´s dead. Game over!
I thinks, this is realistic
. Everybody is careful and thinks twice, if a conflict should end in PvP.
But it´s only the characters having a conflict anyway. The players get along quite well with each other. We know each other (not in real life, but after many hours of playing quite well, I think). That´s why I would not kill another character in a PvP duell, if the player does not agree with this.
But I thinks this discussion does not lead to anything anyway. As I said, it´s just a matter of taste and nothing else. If you prefer to play a big MMO, play it. I prefer my small RP-world, because of it´s great atmosphere.
EDIT: And of course the characters will try to run away, but the players don´t misuse game mechanics, so their character can´t be caught. If the game mechanics don´t make arresting someone possible, the player allows his character to get caught . That´s when our DMs come in
. But it´s rarly necessary. That´s what RP is all about. Responding to the RP of the guards player, even though game mechanics make it possible to ignore the guard and walk straight through him.
what game are you speaking of?
Neverwinter Nights 2 persistant worlds. Not an MMO but just a game with a multiplayer function. There are servers where up to 60 (or soon even 90 as I was told) players can play together. And there are servers for all kind of tastes (PvP, hardcore RP, perma death or not ...).
Nah. I've tried a word-based mmorpg (Guild Wars) where the character actions were so limited that the players mostly relied on gathering in outposts, sitting down and talking. It wasn't very entertaining, but I guess it's all about what you're used to. I bet pen and paper RP can also be fun for that matter, though I had to give it up after a few poor, unsucessful attempts. But many of those who would rather RP on mmorpgs do it for the visual part. It's just a personal opinion, but I would love to actually -see- my character sit, laugh, walk, sneak and fight another character.
So far, many interesting points have been made in this thread. (We're still doing an unofficial market analysis. Note unofficial, I'm still studying this and we won't make any fancyass game... in the nearest future.) To sum up a bit , it seems as if many think a roleplaybased mmorpg should be as strict and realistic as possible. After going on a game-testing spree, hearing the opinions on this board and asking other RPers, we found out that any mmorpg should, above all, be satisfying. After testing the games for RP possibilities, (WoW, GW, KOTOR, EQ2, ect etc) we ended up with the usual "Good, but... something is missing."
My conclusion is that a possible mmorpg for roleplayers should be as satisfying as possible. That's why, I'm against realistic games where the characters die permanently, no magic, dragons, ect. Let me explain:
What happens in RP? Action. Action, blood and intrigues. Mostly guild feuds or complicated love affairs. A very few would be satisfied with playing your average peasant who never walks out of the village because he would be killed by wolves and bears. Players need to be able to create a character they feel is unique. The whole meaning with RP (imo) is to be able to escape reality and do something impossible. Players want to play a brave hero, a clever thief, a powerful mage, not a John or Tom who is killed on his first attempt at fighting a monster or arrested for his first crime. Sure, a universe where everyone is awesome isn't realistic, but it pleases. (And good roleplayers would create weaker bi-characters if their storyline requires it anyway)
If I was in charge of making a mmorpg, I'd rather focus on:
Graphics and design. It should keep the eye happy. It's mentioned before, but such a game must have an advanced character creation sheet, all the basic emotes such as walking, sitting, sleeping, and I'd also add things like being able to carry other characters (Man, this was annoying in the mmorpgs I've tried. "No, we're not walking in a row. I'm carrying her!") and generally ensure that players had tons of emotes and actions to choose from, all put in a systematic, easy-to-browse system. Graphics and design also refer to environment, costumes and details. You can have an awesome story, tons of races/classes/professions, a well-functioning duel/fight system and it will still make me wince if the character's feet and arms look like lego-squares.
It should be the game developers' responsibility to ensure that the RP doesn't turn one-sided by constantly adding new challenges. Pirate-raids, new threats, ect. I'm honestly not sure how this can be done correctly to keep the RP varied, but I believe it would make the game more exciting anyway, and some RPers would probably take advantage of such in-game events as they would give consequences for their characters. (A wild idea that crossed my mind would be to have a few GMs with the sole purpose of making trouble by controlling various enemies, monsters, criminal clans since RP with computer-controlled chars doesn't work well.)
I think the challenge is not to re-create an online society where everything is as realistic as possible, but to keep the majority of the players content. And people want bread and circus after all. I would make a game that visually depended little on imagination and much on creativity. Varietas delectat.
I realize however that there are lots of challenges coming with my idea, but problems like invincible characters, dissatisfying/unfair pvp systems, guides for newcomers and how to prevent people from ruining gameplay by going OoC have already been mentioned and should of course be considered as the game is worked on.
I just wish that game developers would see what previously released mmorpgs lack and improve, instead of releasing game after game with the same minor but annoying flaws. *coughs in Aion's direction*
Nah. I've tried a word-based mmorpg (Guild Wars) where the character actions were so limited that the players mostly relied on gathering in outposts, sitting down and talking. It wasn't very entertaining, but I guess it's all about what you're used to. I bet pen and paper RP can also be fun for that matter, though I had to give it up after a few poor, unsucessful attempts. But many of those who would rather RP on mmorpgs do it for the visual part. It's just a personal opinion, but I would love to actually -see- my character sit, laugh, walk, sneak and fight another character.
So far, many interesting points have been made in this thread. (We're still doing an unofficial market analysis. Note unofficial, I'm still studying this and we won't make any fancyass game... in the nearest future.) To sum up a bit , it seems as if many think a roleplaybased mmorpg should be as strict and realistic as possible. After going on a game-testing spree, hearing the opinions on this board and asking other RPers, we found out that any mmorpg should, above all, be satisfying. After testing the games for RP possibilities, (WoW, GW, KOTOR, EQ2, ect etc) we ended up with the usual "Good, but... something is missing."
My conclusion is that a possible mmorpg for roleplayers should be as satisfying as possible. That's why, I'm against realistic games where the characters die permanently, no magic, dragons, ect. Let me explain:
What happens in RP? Action. Action, blood and intrigues. Mostly guild feuds or complicated love affairs. A very few would be satisfied with playing your average peasant who never walks out of the village because he would be killed by wolves and bears. Players need to be able to create a character they feel is unique. The whole meaning with RP (imo) is to be able to escape reality and do something impossible. Players want to play a brave hero, a clever thief, a powerful mage, not a John or Tom who is killed on his first attempt at fighting a monster or arrested for his first crime. Sure, a universe where everyone is awesome isn't realistic, but it pleases. (And good roleplayers would create weaker bi-characters if their storyline requires it anyway)
If I was in charge of making a mmorpg, I'd rather focus on:
Graphics and design. It should keep the eye happy. It's mentioned before, but such a game must have an advanced character creation sheet, all the basic emotes such as walking, sitting, sleeping, and I'd also add things like being able to carry other characters (Man, this was annoying in the mmorpgs I've tried. "No, we're not walking in a row. I'm carrying her!") and generally ensure that players had tons of emotes and actions to choose from, all put in a systematic, easy-to-browse system. Graphics and design also refer to environment, costumes and details. You can have an awesome story, tons of races/classes/professions, a well-functioning duel/fight system and it will still make me wince if the character's feet and arms look like lego-squares.
It should be the game developers' responsibility to ensure that the RP doesn't turn one-sided by constantly adding new challenges. Pirate-raids, new threats, ect. I'm honestly not sure how this can be done correctly to keep the RP varied, but I believe it would make the game more exciting anyway, and some RPers would probably take advantage of such in-game events as they would give consequences for their characters. (A wild idea that crossed my mind would be to have a few GMs with the sole purpose of making trouble by controlling various enemies, monsters, criminal clans since RP with computer-controlled chars doesn't work well.)
I think the challenge is not to re-create an online society where everything is as realistic as possible, but to keep the majority of the players content. And people want bread and circus after all. I would make a game that visually depended little on imagination and much on creativity. Varietas delectat.
I realize however that there are lots of challenges coming with my idea, but problems like invincible characters, dissatisfying/unfair pvp systems, guides for newcomers and how to prevent people from ruining gameplay by going OoC have already been mentioned and should of course be considered as the game is worked on.
I just wish that game developers would see what previously released mmorpgs lack and improve, instead of releasing game after game with the same minor but annoying flaws. *coughs in Aion's direction*
I really have nothing to add, just read this post.
I agree with what Ceallach writes about grafics. Good grafics are important.
But I don´t agree with most of the rest.
I don´t want action and blood. Or if this things are in a game, I don´t care much for them. It´s important, the game offers some satisfaction for me also. And this doesn´t come from slaying monsters or other players. In fact such activities are rather boring in my eyes. I prefer to roleplay an everyday person (like e.g. a farmer). It´s important, I don´t have to slay monsters to get anywhere in a game. What´s fun to me is e.g. crafting and economics. If the economy is really player based and I manage to afford myself a house (maybe a farmhouse), am able to decorate it and or to buy myself some new clothes (not armor), I am happy.
Sounds boring to most of you? Yes maybe it is. But I think, a game has to be satisfaying for more than just one kind of player. And I am for sure not the average MMO-player, you can find usually in such a game or who posts usually here on this bords. That´s why you won´t get answers like mine very often.
I am female and more than 30 years old. That´s alone a fact, which separates me from the average MMO-player. And If I don´t play Neverwinter Nights 2, I play games like Ceasar, Pharao or the The Seddlers (the old city-building games). I have never played a shooter game.
A few days ago I have read some statistics. It says about the following: It was assumed, women would like to play multiplayer games, because of their social components (talking to others etc.) and therefore games with a multiplayer function or even MMOs would attract female players.
But the findings where completly different. While many women play games nowadays, only very few play MMOs. In this statistics it said only about 3 - 4% (it´s a german statistic, may not be true in all the world).
In fact during my own time playing I did not meet many other women and I don´t know one single woman, who does play an MMO (most my age love The Seddlers or such games). Of course there are many female chars, but it´s men or boys playing them. And some women do play because of their boyfriends or husband - not because it´s really fun to them (one said to me once, it´s the only way to make her husband talk to her - if she does not get him off the computer, she plays with him).
I think MMOs are missing the female part. Like a movie with only male actors, which consists of only action scenes and no talking and love scenes. This may be an inconvinient finding and not very convincing in times of emancipation. But I really don´t think emancipation has anything to do with us women becoming like men and sharing all of their interests.
MMOs are a male dominated genre and therefore the male players always get more of the features they like and the women get nothing.
Of course I am exaggerating this a little bit and of course there are women, who like to play action games too. But I also think, there is some truth in this. Many game designers want to make women play their games. I have seen another questionaire a few week ago. It had the title: "How can we make women like our shooter-games?". This question itself is crazy, from a female perspective. I don´t like shooters. They are boring. Nothing else to add to this. My answer was of course: "Don´t try to change us, change the games. Do away with the shooting and put in social gameplay".
O.k. I hear the shouting again: "We don´t want a game like the Sims! How terrible, how boring".
But I admit, I am female. I may not meet most male players standards. But I don´t care about this. I am not a teenager anymore. I don´t have to show the boys, what a cool girl I am. And I admit I like the Sims, I like building houses, I like crafting and playing an everyday character and not a hero. Why should I want to be a hero? I am what I am and I am very satisfayed with myself
.
I only wish, there where more games (online games, because I do like to play with others!), which meet my interests.
Hm, hm... I think you got me wrong, Lilalu. We wouldn't want to make a game full of action and blood - only. All I said is that an overly realistic game where your character dies at the first attempt at fighting a beast (and dies permanently) would be boring for most people. Most (I say most, there are so many opinions out there and you cannot satisfy everyone) people don't want to play a game where it takes you one year to create a decent warrior (who still would be wiped out by a dragon, cause, well, that's realistic) It doesn't have to do much with action, only with the fact that most people want to do and see things that don't occur in real life. And hey, no one would force action upon you. If you want to RP an average peasant, that would also be possible. (You'd even gain respect from other players for being different is my guess) The whole point with a roleplaybased MMO is the freedom to choose, right? Which can be hard in a game with a strict, realistic system.
Imagine a game with permanent death. You're a newcomer who aren't completely sure of how things work yet. You spend 2-3 hours getting out of the tutorial area, you feel bold and attack a bear - and die.
Or you're a veteran who played your character for nearly two years, you plan on marrying another character or start your own tavern - and are accidently killed by bandits. That would please a small part of the customers - the most hardcore ones - but would make a great deal of less hardcore players back out from the game rather fast.
The best solution I can conjure for the "RP death" problem is to have resurrection - however - as this can tempt people to go a little bananas (Once witnessed an assassin resurrect 3 times in one evening) it should take a lot to be resurrected (valuable items, assistance from an ally) + death penalty in the form of a temporary (1-2 weeks) ban of the character. That should sting enough to not make players get reckless.
Imagine a game where everyone start out as a weak, average, everyday-life person. The tedious progress of climbing the social ladder is too frustrating for someone who wants action. While this might be what you prefer - which is fine - I still think the system shouldn't be so strict.
But no, I'm not after making a huge action-and-blood filled game for guys. I'm a - le gasp - female as well, and while I personally think combat is pure love and conspiracies and plot twisters make me squeal like a little girl, I'm aware that too many MMOs don't satisfy the interests of female players because of too much hack & slash. But again, variety. Theoretically, we want to reach the general customers - which means both sexes. If you prefer crafting, leave the fighting to the other players and play a merchant. There's nothing wrong with that.
(Let me tell you something. When I RPed on WoW, there were a lot of players, female and male who barely knew what combat meant. They focused on crafting, spent time on long discussions in taverns and hired escorts if they wanted to travel. The rest could create as much action as they wanted. It worked. WoW is far from ideal - it doesn't provide enough opportunities to advance without combat as you actually need to fight to get really wealthy, gain materials, ect - but at least you could choose to be average or super-strong. I think however that many female players have a lot of wrong ideas concerning MMOs. For example, my female friends run as soon as they see something related to WoW, saying it's "only hack & slash for boys". But it doesn't have to be like that. )
The problem is, most MMO players nowadays are male teenagers
. They want to be little heros with big stuff and they want to get everything quickly. Don´t get me wrong. I think male (and sometimes female) teenagers should be allowed to have fun too and therefore there should be such games.
But when it is easy in a game to accomplish this, a majority of little superheros in great gear will run trough the game
.
And I really don´t think, a game with an average player base like this will ever be of any interest to me. Their interests are just to different from my own and (no offence meant to anybody!) the atmosphere in such a game to me seems just ridiculous. And that´s, what most women my age think and therefore most don´t play this games.
No, I really don´t think I would have fun, playing a lonley crafter, while all the others just run about slaying monsters and making a fool of themselfs, because they get excited so much about the new pixel-sword they got.
I really don´t think, there will ever be a game which suits everbody. That´s what game designers try to do. And that´s a mistake! They will never succed, because people are different. What is fun for a 14 year old boy, is just plain boring to me and the other way round.
And I think game designers ask the wrong people mostly. They ask the gamers, what they want. Ask those, who do not play MMOs, why they don´t. Than you will know, what most games are missing
.
I've pointed that out before and I've gotten the answer that just because developers are making money, it doesn't matter to them if they're missing a huge segment of the market, so long as they're making a buck doing what they're doing.
I agree with you, I have no interest in mindless death and destruction, I'm a roleplayer first and a PvPer... not at all. I have no interest in hack and slash and gear grinding, those things bore the hell out of me and I want nothing to do with them.
What I do want simply doesn't exist in the MMO market at all. The people who seem to think there is roleplaying out there seem to view it in the Final Fantasy mold, being dragged by the nose through a barely interactive story that you have no real control over. That's not roleplaying, that's reading a book. I want more. I just can't find it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I simply don't look for role playing opportunities in MMOs. I like to role play in forums, IM and such. However, when I role play, the number one thing I like to do in a role play is fight people. A battle between two skilled role players is probably the best reading I've ever had. I like violence and warfare. I love the art in it. A sword fight between two masters of the art is quite a beautiful thing.
I like medieval fantasy as well as futuristic science fiction. The reason is I find reality to be extremely boring. In medieval times there were knights who dressed in plate mail and had jousts (sp?) and sword fights. The future hasn't happened yet so, a story based in it can be about anything.
I really wish I could find more people that like my kind of role play.
I'm exactly the opposite, I don't want combat. I look upon combat as a failure, not as a success. If you're really interested in roleplaying a single character long-term, putting them in the way of bodily harm is silly, combat should be the very last resort, not the first.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yes, I agree with Cephus here. Life in Middle ages was short. People did not get old. When you really want that feeling, you should play NWN 2 on a permadeath server. People don´t fight constantly there, because fighting is what it should be - dangerous.
To each their own I guess. I'm someone who believes in learning to solve conflict over avoiding it. The reason I role play or play video games is because I want an escape from reality. I want a place where I can do things I never could in the real world. In real life I wouldn't live long if I got into fights all the time, in video games this can be possible. I don't mind losing some realism in order to be able to do what I want. Obviously you guys don't care for this so a game like I'm describing wouldn't work well for you. This brings us back to the point that no MMO could possibly cator to the wants of everyone.
Beating the crap out of someone is not "dealing with conflict" sorry. I have no reason to escape from reality, I'm very happy with reality. Roleplaying provides a way to exercise the gray matter upstairs and perhaps see things from new and interesting viewpoints. That's not to say that your way is wrong, everyone's enjoyment is subjective, I'm just tired of there being *NO* MMOs for what I want, and *ALL* of them for what you want.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yes, I agree with Cephus. I am an optimistic and rather happy person. I really don´t miss being able to fight someone in real life.
I prefer to have fun with people instead of fighting them. Playing a roleplaying-game for me is nothing but fun in my spare time. It´s better than watching a movie or reading a book. It´s not just consuming, what others wrote or made up. I am actually creating a great roleplaying-story together with my fellow players. Roleplaying for me is interactive creativity. It´s a great experience and I would not want to miss this in my life.
But I agree, there have to be different games for different people. Games should be fun and everybody should be able to get what he/she is looking for.
True. But I still believe in the general game. Currently setting up a detailed list of what such a game - from a roleplayer perspective - should contain. MMOs differ from other games because they can be rather wide and frequently updated. Sure, some basic things have to be set (Genre and design style), but a MMO should appeal to a larger part of the audience than a regular RPG or shooter game does.
The problem with too specific games is that they don't live long. A MMO based on the Hello Kitty or Simpson universe will only attract a few, specially interested players, and it's hard to keep the communities alive (which makes us poor developers aka moneybags very sad. ) I think it's better to have a MMO which satisfies many of the customers' interests.
On the other hand, you cannot satisfy everyone. This is why game developers should instead try to "correct mistakes" seen in previous games and be more innovative.
Sorry for being so blunt, but currently there's just so much crap on the market, and yet I don't see much progress. Same systems, same purposes packed in new wrapping paper. In older days *grandma voice* there was at least a slight change in graphics for each new game, always a little better adjustment of game flow, more creativity. I don't expect the current trend to change though. *waves with dollar slip*
Yes, your right. Most games are nothing but crap.
But I don´t think, there ever will be a "general" game. There is not one general game and never will be. Games (especially MMOs) in my eyes are nothing but another media.
Like the more traditional media (e.g. movies, books), they can have many purposes. They can be used for entertainment, but also e.g. for education. Nowadays almost every houshold in my country has internet access. MMOs in a few years can become what TV is now. And almost everyone could play them.
As it is now, only a small percentage of the people is interested in MMOs. But MMOs really could become a mass medium.
The children might play for their school lessons (why not teach history in an e.g. medieval MMO - not a fighting RPG of course) , the older brother might have fun playing a fighting game like Master_Razor wants it, the younger sister "My Pony Farm Online" , the parents a hardcore roleplaying game and grandma might grow her plants in "My Fantasy Garden Online", if she can´t afford to have a real garden. She could also compete with her garden neighbor, who has the most beautiful roses
.
Sounds crazy, hm? But why not? Do you really think, grandma will want to fight Master_Razor in a hardcore PvP fight? O.k. just joking about the roses
and some grandmas maybe like to fight 
.
Because of technical advancements, it also will become cheaper to develop games in the future.
Of course there always will be "mainstream" games to. But as it is with movies, why shouldn´t there be also non-mainstream productions or different games for different people and purposes?
I actually am not currently playing an MMO because they don't have what I want. While I want fighting and wars, I care a whole lot more about game mechanics like how much farming I have to do.
You are completely right. Even just within the "MMOs for entertaiment" branch, there are bound to be all sorts of games in order to have a variety in genres. Real life, sci-fi, medieval, and so on and so on. I'm all for non-mainstream productions of MMOs. The problem with these is that they tend to die rather fast (and then why invest money and time in them when you can use old technology to produce another specific but mediocre game aimed at a small part of the customers?)
I'd say your description was a little ambitionous though. Games should be games. We want a variety in media as well, and it would be bad if the MMOs (and virtual reality in general) took over too much. So let grandma grow her flowers in real life. *laughs* But that's a completely different issue - I digress.
To stay on topic: It may not be possible to create a game which both Master_Razor and grandma enjoy, but I think (being my ambitionous self) that it should be possible to create a game where the majorty of roleplaying gamers, provided that they're interested in the genre and design of the said game, are satisfied. Sure, if the game was sci-fi for example, medieval fantasy fans wouldn't even look at it. But those who are into swords and fireballs would enjoy it whether they want to fight criminal groups, or form families and sell pelts. After all, it's up to the players to create the story, no?
Not claiming anything though. It's just a theory, so it might never work in reality for all I know. But take a look at PlaneShift for instance, where you can be rewarded both for living as an adventurer and as a normal citizen.
Yes, you are right again. Of course I was exaggerating my description a little bit and I would not want MMOs to take over to much
.
But books did not vanish, because we have TV now. I still like to read a good novel sometimes. I also enjoy watching a movie on TV and roleplaying online. I don´t think we will get some kind of MATRIX-reality, just because MMOs become interesting to a broader audience and not only to the average gamer.
And grandma (I start to get fond of her
) may enjoy her Online garden, when she lives in a big city and does not have a garden in real life.
Unfortunatly it´s not a matter of game design, if people get along with each other or not. It´s the people themselfs, who are the problem in online games. The bigger the game, the more people there are, the bigger the problem. Publishers of online games will have to face this in the future and they actually have to deal with this already. It´s a not at all cheap problem, because every customer may drive away another potential costumer.
Because yes, adventurers and others could get along with each other, you can design a game, that´s rewarding to both groups. But they very often don´t get along well with each other anyway. And then there still is the problem between roleplayers and non-roleplayers ....
I am really happy, I am not in the games industries
.