Personally I believe there is a contract between Lucas Arts and SOE, but it certainly wasn't for a short term deal like 3 years (to those predicting shutdown in 2006). It most likely had an exclusive agreement for a number of years and also each company had an exit clause if certain conditions were met. For Lucas it was most likely money or subscribers, not idea for SOE. There is certainly a morales clause so that SOE can't go crazy blaming SOE for any problems and visa versa.
I don't think this game will run until it isn't profitable. More likely the contract is just now comming up for renewal time, but I don't think either company is ready to cut and run yet. Lucas most likely wants something on the market to take SWG place so they have presence *and not screw the pooch again*. SOE desperately needs something big to replace SWG on the station pass should it go away.
Either way I think the game is living on borrowed time with both companies. I didn't find the game shutting down due to contracts or licensing in 2006 or 2007 all that plausable, but I am starting to find it more reasonable as time goes on. 2008 puts the game in the 5 year range which seem like a sound contract number. My guess, if it is right, would leave both companies signing short term deals until a handy excuse comes along.
And you're right - i have absolutely not proof that 20% of players are officers, but i'l tell you what, i know one hell of a lot more on the subject than the people here who dont even play or logged on once for a trial. This is why i have the authority to estimate such things. I could be lying you're right, but if i was going to lie id make it a higher, much "healthier number"...
What makes you an "authority" on numbers over anyone else? You call someone elses number BS and then turn around and pretty much do the exact same thing with 20% of this or that and round up to 50k.
It isn't like you have access to insider information or SOE data just because you pay a subscription. I'm not saying you a lying in the least and I recognize your numbers as opinions just like everyone else is discussing their opinions.
The only difference between your numbers and those you cry foul against is that you see the game through rose colored glasses and they don't share your opinion. In the end you are doing exactly what you are telling someone else not to do.
This is rich - *I* see the game through rose tinted glasses? lol you have so many things you could say yet you chose to say that - the most backward thing possible. You may very well be the ones with rose tinted glasses; i hated the NGE when it hit, i was outraged as was almost everyone else, but through my own choice and for love of the community i stuck at it and persevered - eventually (and it took a while) things started getting better, and i took the game for what it was - nothing like the pre-cu, nor as good as, but better, imo, than any other game. I continue to be objective when discussing the game and agree that there are still many things needed fixing and changing, off the top of my head (the levelling system and BM grinding).
You (and i wont talk about you personally, as i dont you you too well compared to people like salvaje) however continue to bash a game you know nothing about - comparing it every second to pre-cu and what it used to be, crying it that it used to be better. And on the rare occasions some of you take up the trials, well, there couldnt be anything more tinted; you fail to try to get into anything the game has offered has new and take a completely negative view of the game - essentially you try to not have fun, thats the main aim, so you can come back here and make yet another negative "i went back post".
About the numbers stuff - im not contradicting myself or being a hypocrit, im merely pointing out that we both have no solid figures and we both may be biased, (though you guys are usually more so) but i, in contrast to you, play the game and thus have some sort of evidence. And as i said, i could be lying but if i was, wouldnt i claim a much larger, healthier number (as so many of you have claimed 50k is terrible).
Finally, to Salvaje, why cant you understand that everyone knows you're numbers are complete outrught lies; wishful thinking. Why would anyone believe that you believe "sources" of which you have told nothing, when you blatantly lie so often and many have proved you wrong on many things, not just populations.
I have played the NGE. I do know what it's like, and how it plays, and how shallow it is compared to Pre-CU. i know that you have to spend HOURS remapping your keyboard and writing macros to make up for the horrible UI. I also know that it's unplayable without UI mods, and a mod that takes out most of the particle effects. I'm not someone who quit the day the NGE came out and bashes it out of ignorance.
Out of (in hindsight) naive false hope, I stayed around and played the NGE first until summer 2006, then again for a few months in 2007. Most recently I logged into yet another free trial just weeks ago. I tried to bargain with them, I tried to work from within, first asking for changes that would make the game better, then, failing that, asking for classic servers so that everyone could have what they wanted. All I got for that was grief, unjustified forum bans, and greater wisdom, in that I will NEVER trust a software company at their word ever again.
It's not been all bad though, I have sources in the industry that have given me greater insight into how things work than I ever would have had. I certainly now know enough to be able to tell when a MMO company is "A SOE" and when they aren't. SOE deserves every bit of vile and venom that we throw at it.
But don't tell me that the vets have no insight into how the NGE works. Almost ALL of us have played it, and even recently, due to the trials, and due to fanbois LYING to us convincing us to come back, "it's better now, really". Inevitably we don't stay because it isn't better, they've done NOTHING to remove that which is the worst about the NGE, such as the static classes, the starter Jedi, and crafting sucking. They never will do anything about those things (and you don't even claim that they have) which is a dealbreaker for almost all the vets.
Until they either offer classic, or go on a "Manhattan Project" to De-NGE the NGE, we aren't coming back. And we are FULLY justified in saying, that compared to the game we loved and lost, the NGE sucks, and sucks hard. Apparently we aren't any sort of "vocal minority of forum terrorists" but in fact the majority, given that 20+ of the 25 servers are virtually empty now.
You chastised someone for making up subscriber numbers for the game and then did the exact same thing yourself. That is NOT being objective in the least and thus my rose colored glasses comment. It doesn't matter if you still play the game or not as it give you no more authority or access to subscription numbers than anyone else who might play, even if only for a few weeks. To put a silly spin on your claims of "at least having some evidence", just how long does someone have to play SWG before their opinions and speculations on populations are as educated as your own? 1 day? 5 weeks? what is the magic number?
I was long since gone from SWG when the NGE mess happened so don't lump me into that crowd. Yes the game was better before the combat upgrade and the NGE, but it was still a big giant steaming pile mess then too. It is an even bigger mess now. The title has been just one big folly of mismanagement after another with little to no signs of changing. It is the car crash you just can't stop staring at in morbid fascination.
However, just because you have lowered your SWG standards and accept "the game for what it is" doesn't automatically invalidate anyone elses experiences of views just because they don't want to pay for a busted product. In fact, despite your opinion of my SWG past, I agree with you that the community is awesome and there are great aspects of the game, even in the current shape it is. I also think the game has huge potential, but I stopped paying for games that have potential and don't deliver. Let alone one that is run by a company that treats its customers as disposable and with such disdain.
I have played the NGE. I do know what it's like, and how it plays, and how shallow it is compared to Pre-CU. i know that you have to spend HOURS remapping your keyboard and writing macros to make up for the horrible UI. I also know that it's unplayable without UI mods, and a mod that takes out most of the particle effects. I'm not someone who quit the day the NGE came out and bashes it out of ignorance. Out of (in hindsight) naive false hope, I stayed around and played the NGE first until summer 2006, then again for a few months in 2007. Most recently I logged into yet another free trial just weeks ago. I tried to bargain with them, I tried to work from within, first asking for changes that would make the game better, then, failing that, asking for classic servers so that everyone could have what they wanted. All I got for that was grief, unjustified forum bans, and greater wisdom, in that I will NEVER trust a software company at their word ever again. It's not been all bad though, I have sources in the industry that have given me greater insight into how things work than I ever would have had. I certainly now know enough to be able to tell when a MMO company is "A SOE" and when they aren't. SOE deserves every bit of vile and venom that we throw at it. But don't tell me that the vets have no insight into how the NGE works. Almost ALL of us have played it, and even recently, due to the trials, and due to fanbois LYING to us convincing us to come back, "it's better now, really". Inevitably we don't stay because it isn't better, they've done NOTHING to remove that which is the worst about the NGE, such as the static classes, the starter Jedi, and crafting sucking. They never will do anything about those things (and you don't even claim that they have) which is a dealbreaker for almost all the vets. Until they either offer classic, or go on a "Manhattan Project" to De-NGE the NGE, we aren't coming back. And we are FULLY justified in saying, that compared to the game we loved and lost, the NGE sucks, and sucks hard. Apparently we aren't any sort of "vocal minority of forum terrorists" but in fact the majority, given that 20+ of the 25 servers are virtually empty now.
I applaud you Salvaje, this is the type of response i like rather that "SWG will shutdown in spring 08".
However, all that you've said is not entirely true. While i hate jedi being a starting class, and believe this should be changed, crafting however has been improved, they've given more reasons for it to exist and made them alot more viable and useful, and continue to do so. The WS update soon will hopefully address the issues around it, being the most controversial and Droid Commander will provide yet more content for DEs. They have made efforts to address static classes, such as expertise, continuing to add to them, then adding extra trees such as BM and droid commander.
Many of the vets on this forum, whether you like it or not, DO seem to know very little about certain parts of the game, you are included. I do know, however, that many vets do know what they're talking about as well though. There are many instances of me, obraik and others correcting you on many discussed issues. Just because you logged into the game, PvP'ed for an hour, cried in disgust (or delight, as i suspect, giving you more ammunition) not really getting into any of the depth of the game and didnt properly join and partake in a guild, experience new systems etc, doesnt mean you know everything that the average player would. Im afraid to say it, but your glasses are so rose-tinted im surprised you can see through them at all.
Guy I quit this game at the end of last year, this game does really blow..... and the current players are either fanbois or mentally challenged that this game is actually even enteraining, the collection system, the heroics are just one big bore fest.... Im sorry ut this game just needs to die.......NOW!!!
The NGE is the complete repudiation of Pre CU. It resembles it in only the most mockingly parody way.
It's dying. Hell, it's already dead, really. It died the day that the Devs decided to not roll back no matter HOW many subs quit.
I've played it. I've seen my 200 member guild shrink to 10. I've seen the inability to get a group for anything, even on BLOODFIN, which is the #1 or #2 server. I've seen all achievements made, even post NGE invalidated more than once.
I have all the in game experience I need to refute the fanbois point by point.
Which is why I am (proclaimed by Smed no less) the public enemy #1 of SOE. As I am. I want to see the company destroyed and everyone who works there working as a team... At a Taco Bell..
Which they might even be mildly qualified for. But I won't eat there...
Saay, You chastised someone for making up subscriber numbers for the game and then did the exact same thing yourself. That is NOT being objective in the least and thus my rose colored glasses comment. It doesn't matter if you still play the game or not as it give you no more authority or access to subscription numbers than anyone else who might play, even if only for a few weeks. To put a silly spin on your claims of "at least having some evidence", just how long does someone have to play SWG before their opinions and speculations on populations are as educated as your own? 1 day? 5 weeks? what is the magic number? I was long since gone from SWG when the NGE mess happened so don't lump me into that crowd. Yes the game was better before the combat upgrade and the NGE, but it was still a big giant steaming pile mess then too. It is an even bigger mess now. The title has been just one big folly of mismanagement after another with little to no signs of changing. It is the car crash you just can't stop staring at in morbid fascination. However, just because you have lowered your SWG standards and accept "the game for what it is" doesn't automatically invalidate anyone elses experiences of views just because they don't want to pay for a busted product. In fact, despite your opinion of my SWG past, I agree with you that the community is awesome and there are great aspects of the game, even in the current shape it is. I also think the game has huge potential, but I stopped paying for games that have potential and don't deliver. Let alone one that is run by a company that treats its customers as disposable and with such disdain.
I took the number someone else was discussing, a number that was stated by Deadmeat, and a number that seems actaully possible. Regardless my point was that no one has any hard evidence, but where as Salvaje has virtually no evidence at all to back himself up (just his "sources") - I actually play the game regularly and see whats going on it and see what the populations are actually like. I dont know how long someone has to play, m simply saying ive been through all the NGE and have seen the numbers and many here have simply logged on for a day or two on a trial or not at all. Plus, they hate SOE with a passion and have lots of reason to be extremely biased against them, it being Salvaje's mission to take them down - but im here for no other reason than to discuss and correct, im not here to try to get anybody back - this is the last place id go if i wanted to recruit new players.
Im not trying to say anyone else's view are invalidated, im trying to stop them making stuff up all the time and constantly bashing a game, they, in some cases know little about, over 2 years after they last cared about it. I was simply stating that im no fanbois who hates every incarnation of the game except NGE, i used to love it, but the reason i still play is that i enjoy it because im not constantly comparing it with previous incarnations - in other words, ive accepted that Pre-CU is not returning, i think most people can see thats pretty obvious.
You throwing numbers out there isn't lying or speculating, but me doing so is?
How could your number be any less of a guess than mine (and mine aren't guesses, they do come from sources and do jibe with the empirical evidence) unless you work for SOE and have access to the numbers?
And I note that all you do to dispute the numbers I float out there is to argue only that the number is slightly higher. Not much of an argument, you still concede the loss of 200,000-250,000 subscribers since the CUNGE.
Which is a rather moot point. What even Saay, the world's #1 SOE apologist, admits is that the NGE was a catastrophe and a miserable failure, having lost in excess of 200,000 players and having only a tiny percentage of it's old sub base left.
Originally posted by saay I took the number someone else was discussing, a number that was stated by Deadmeat, and a number that seems actaully possible. Regardless my point was that no one has any hard evidence, but where as Salvaje has virtually no evidence at all to back himself up (just his "sources") - I actually play the game regularly and see whats going on it and see what the populations are actually like. I dont know how long someone has to play, m simply saying ive been through all the NGE and have seen the numbers and many here have simply logged on for a day or two on a trial or not at all. Plus, they hate SOE with a passion and have lots of reason to be extremely biased against them, it being Salvaje's mission to take them down - but im here for no other reason than to discuss and correct, im not here to try to get anybody back - this is the last place id go if i wanted to recruit new players.
Im not trying to say anyone else's view are invalidated, im trying to stop them making stuff up all the time and constantly bashing a game, they, in some cases know little about, over 2 years after they last cared about it. I was simply stating that im no fanbois who hates every incarnation of the game except NGE, i used to love it, but the reason i still play is that i enjoy it because im not constantly comparing it with previous incarnations - in other words, ive accepted that Pre-CU is not returning, i think most people can see thats pretty obvious.
Let me try again.
You play the game and seem to think that somehow makes your views more right than anyone else. You have no idea how long someone has to be logged in to get a good feel for the population, but since it isn't as long as yourself then it is invalid. Even though you want to hide behind statements about not wanting to invalidate others views, that is what you are doing. Fine, but don't do the same thing you denounce others for.
The only difference between your rational of being suitable to quote populations is that you like the game and those who claim otherwise are wrong because they don't like the game. It ends there. Honestly I don't think you "see what populations are actually like" on all 25 servers as you offhandedly suggest. More likely you log on and play on your normal server and think that is somehow indicitive of the overall health of the games population because as you said yourself there are enough people to group with and you have met new players which is exteremly open to misrepresentation. Much like the "I have enough people to play with so I don't care how many people play the game" comments made in other failing games.
Despite the fact that most vets speak of ghost towns and empty cities across a spectrum of servers. That the login list shows almost all the servers as very light populations. That thread after thread on the official forums beg for character transfers or server mergers. Not to mention the general malaise of the players when talking about the game getting fixed. That there hasn't been a box game manufacturered or stocked in stores for a long long long time. There is no advertising campaign at all. Yet despite all these things everyone else is wrong and you are right that the game is growing and you have special insight about the games numbers to make those claims. Enough so to call other people wrong for speculating when you do the exact same thing?
Your point was never about anyone not having hard numbers, your point was that people who don't like the game are wrong and you are right because you still play and you want them to stop bashing your game. That is why you are in the vet forums hitting the hornets nest with a stick.
Originally posted by saay Originally posted by Daffid011 Saay, You chastised someone for making up subscriber numbers for the game and then did the exact same thing yourself. That is NOT being objective in the least and thus my rose colored glasses comment. It doesn't matter if you still play the game or not as it give you no more authority or access to subscription numbers than anyone else who might play, even if only for a few weeks. To put a silly spin on your claims of "at least having some evidence", just how long does someone have to play SWG before their opinions and speculations on populations are as educated as your own? 1 day? 5 weeks? what is the magic number? I was long since gone from SWG when the NGE mess happened so don't lump me into that crowd. Yes the game was better before the combat upgrade and the NGE, but it was still a big giant steaming pile mess then too. It is an even bigger mess now. The title has been just one big folly of mismanagement after another with little to no signs of changing. It is the car crash you just can't stop staring at in morbid fascination. However, just because you have lowered your SWG standards and accept "the game for what it is" doesn't automatically invalidate anyone elses experiences of views just because they don't want to pay for a busted product. In fact, despite your opinion of my SWG past, I agree with you that the community is awesome and there are great aspects of the game, even in the current shape it is. I also think the game has huge potential, but I stopped paying for games that have potential and don't deliver. Let alone one that is run by a company that treats its customers as disposable and with such disdain.
I took the number someone else was discussing, a number that was stated by Deadmeat, and a number that seems actaully possible. Regardless my point was that no one has any hard evidence, but where as Salvaje has virtually no evidence at all to back himself up (just his "sources") - I actually play the game regularly and see whats going on it and see what the populations are actually like. I dont know how long someone has to play, m simply saying ive been through all the NGE and have seen the numbers and many here have simply logged on for a day or two on a trial or not at all. Plus, they hate SOE with a passion and have lots of reason to be extremely biased against them, it being Salvaje's mission to take them down - but im here for no other reason than to discuss and correct, im not here to try to get anybody back - this is the last place id go if i wanted to recruit new players.
Im not trying to say anyone else's view are invalidated, im trying to stop them making stuff up all the time and constantly bashing a game, they, in some cases know little about, over 2 years after they last cared about it. I was simply stating that im no fanbois who hates every incarnation of the game except NGE, i used to love it, but the reason i still play is that i enjoy it because im not constantly comparing it with previous incarnations - in other words, ive accepted that Pre-CU is not returning, i think most people can see thats pretty obvious. Why do you care? What business is it of yours if people have a different opinion than yours? How does people bashing the game and bashing SOE affact you at all? AT least the people bashing SOE and the game have some REASON fo doing what they are doing -- they feel they have been wronged, and feel something they loved was taken away from them. Whether they are right or they are wrong, at least they have a REASON for posting.
Are you claiming to be such a lover of "truth "that you can not let such "lies" stand? If so, why take such a stance over a VIDEO GAME? If you are a sincerely lover of truth for truth's sake, aren't there other places you would rather engage in this truth monitoring of yours? Aren't there lies being spread out there in the real world that would have far more meaning, in the grand scheme of things?
The difference between the fanboi trolls and us is that we don't have to lie. All we have to do is repost verifiable lies told by SOE, and report the actions they took.
The difference between the fanboi trolls and us is that we don't have to lie. All we have to do is repost verifiable lies told by SOE, and report the actions they took. For example: Smed: "The CU is here to stay"
you dont have to lie? then why do you - just off the top of my head, and believe me, there have been many times you've lied, anytime you've claimed SWG will shutdown this (in previous years) year or SWG has below 12k players (when officer numbers were around the same level), is lying.
Most of what has happened with SWG has defied logic, so I really couldn't guess. I'm still waiting for the day when new management or board members or someone (for goodness sake someone) starts to do something with the StarWars IP that makes sense.
I'd wager George will live at least another 10yrs, so it'll be awhile.
You play the game and seem to think that somehow makes your views more right than anyone else. You have no idea how long someone has to be logged in to get a good feel for the population, but since it isn't as long as yourself then it is invalid. Even though you want to hide behind statements about not wanting to invalidate others views, that is what you are doing. Fine, but don't do the same thing you denounce others for. The only difference between your rational of being suitable to quote populations is that you like the game and those who claim otherwise are wrong because they don't like the game. It ends there. Honestly I don't think you "see what populations are actually like" on all 25 servers as you offhandedly suggest. More likely you log on and play on your normal server and think that is somehow indicitive of the overall health of the games population because as you said yourself there are enough people to group with and you have met new players which is exteremly open to misrepresentation. Much like the "I have enough people to play with so I don't care how many people play the game" comments made in other failing games. Despite the fact that most vets speak of ghost towns and empty cities across a spectrum of servers. That the login list shows almost all the servers as very light populations. That thread after thread on the official forums beg for character transfers or server mergers. Not to mention the general malaise of the players when talking about the game getting fixed. That there hasn't been a box game manufacturered or stocked in stores for a long long long time. There is no advertising campaign at all. Yet despite all these things everyone else is wrong and you are right that the game is growing and you have special insight about the games numbers to make those claims. Enough so to call other people wrong for speculating when you do the exact same thing? Your point was never about anyone not having hard numbers, your point was that people who don't like the game are wrong and you are right because you still play and you want them to stop bashing your game. That is why you are in the vet forums hitting the hornets nest with a stick.
Let me try again. Firstly, i play on about 3 servers, and am fully aware of population problems on quite a few of the 25. Now when i log onto my server(s) and am pleased with the populations, i dont think it gives a good view of the overall health of the game - but, the fact that at least a few, whichi guess people transfer to are very much playable. 25 servers is quite a lot for any game, let alone a game as old as SWG, its no wonder, after the NGE, that it needs server merging.
Ok, about the 'how long you have to be in the game' issue; I dont know how long, and it would depend on alot of variable factors such as where you went and what you did, but my point is, regardless of these things, not that 'ive played alot so i must know the populations', its the fact that ive played through all the NGE and thus i am able to compare it at it's different stages. So i can remember what it was like when Deadmeat stated 50k subs was too low or when someone supposedly hacked in and found out the concurrent login statistics etc. This viewpoint is very helpful.
Now again, i dont believe i have anything over the views of others, but when someone who doesnt play the game, (salvaje) claims 25k subs at most, saying that his 'sources' told him - i am inclined to ask him to refrain since he has absolutely no idea. I was never overtly claiming numbers from thin air, i was using the same numbers others were discussing.
On a side note, theres a good few servers that usually show medium-heavy on the list. Many of the things you listed in that paragraph are open to interpretation, like saying there are ghost towns - they usually speak of places the used to hang out in, back in the day. Just because people want server merges or char transfers doesnt mean the game cannot be taking in new players. I've never claimed the game is growing exponentially, but to me (and of course you'll bash me on this) compared to what it used to be a year ago, there are a lot more new players etc. My point is that some of the people, here, not everyone by any means, are wrong yes, and i feel its best to improve their knowledge on the issues and stop people claiming numbers that are clearly made up. My aim was never to stop people bashing the game, since im sensible enough to know thats never going to happen, my aim is to provide the opposite viewpoint, and to try to be objective, and give proper information on certain things (im talking generally here, obviously i have no information on populations other than what i see and the thread where i was asked to post pictures of a typical night in restuss or in the cantina). So im summation, Salvaje, is not speculating he is wrongly stating, he does it the entire time, a few weeks ago it was 12k, now its 25k, the same as he says SWG will shutdown spring 08, then shys away from the statement as the time period progresses. Whereas i may speculate (with some backing), i rarely claim any numbers myself, just say what i see.
The difference between the fanboi trolls and us is that we don't have to lie. All we have to do is repost verifiable lies told by SOE, and report the actions they took. For example: Smed: "The CU is here to stay"
you dont have to lie? then why do you - just off the top of my head, and believe me, there have been many times you've lied, anytime you've claimed SWG will shutdown this (in previous years) year or SWG has below 12k players (when officer numbers were around the same level), is lying.
That is a lie. I've never claimed SWG had 12K subs. I have stated what sources have told me. You, on the other hand, claim 50K subs with nothing to back that up. Unless you are a source from SOE.
As to the subscriber populations being very low, this is a fact that isn't even in dispute. Your message boards are dominated by complaints of low populations and requests for server merges, for example, something that was NOT the case as recently as a year ago, indicating to me that populations have gone down, not up in the past year.
Every post I've made about the sub number have been OPINIONS. I'm telling you what I think, and yes, I am basing that thought on sources that I will not name. An opinion cannot be a lie.
Stating "The CU is here to stay" at a moment (4 months prior to the NGE) at a time when the NGE had to be in the beginning stages of development IS a bald face lie. Selling an expansion by advertising features for professions that would be removed 2 weeks after release is also a lie. Posting all sorts of stuff about revamps for professions that would be removed (Ranger was one) on the forums <2 months before the NGE is also a lie.
There are definitely people involved in this mess who lie and deceive. It's not the vets. We don't need to lie. Your side does.
You fanboi trolls help us keep the fight alive by giving us someone to argue down. Well, more like nuke, since your arguments aren't very good.
The best way the fanbois could silence us would be to shut up themselves. The threads and conversation will eventually die off. But they have this stupid idea that the best way to defend SOE and revive the NGE is to somehow "counter the lies" of the veterans.
Which doesn't work. In order to counter our "lies" they have to prove that we ARE lying. Which is the easiest attack in the world to knock out of the ballpark since the truth (which is on our side) is the absolute nuke to such straw man tactics.
It also doesn't help that we have lie after lie after lie told by SOE to shove back down their throats as well. This makes them look foolish.
In the end, it accomplishes NOTHING for them and in fact furthers our cause: the destruction of the NGE.
SWG isn't going anywhere for a long long time, I don't even play SWG, but I know it isn't going anywhere.
They will extend the license for as long as they want. At least until another developer comes along who says they can do SWG even better and for less.
The reason is pretty simple, to shutdown SWG you have to shut down SOE. As much as all the vets think they have "done something" significant, they have not, taking away subs from SWG does nothing but affect just that... the population of SWG. SOE has enough money through all it's networks to keep SWG servers alive and working until doomsday. The year 5050 if they so choosed.
To truly shut down SWG you first have to shut down SOE, and all the SWG vets on planet earth never buying another SOE product till they die will not put a dent in SOE's bankroll.
So all these endless threads of nothingness get tiresome.
SOE is a sub division of SONY..... Anyone living on planet earth for the past 20 years know what sony produces, TV's, DVD Players, BLUERay, Music, various and countless electronics, movies, and online entertainment. Pretty much EVERYTHING!!!!.
Sony is not affected in the least by Salvje's personal war against them, nor are they affected by any other vet's personal vendetta's.
Anyone who thinks... BAM I GOT SOE NOW THEY ARE ON THE RUN... is very naive. These endless threads about sticking it to SOE, very tiresome.
Originally posted by saay Originally posted by salvaje The difference between the fanboi trolls and us is that we don't have to lie. All we have to do is repost verifiable lies told by SOE, and report the actions they took. For example: Smed: "The CU is here to stay"
you dont have to lie? then why do you - just off the top of my head, and believe me, there have been many times you've lied, anytime you've claimed SWG will shutdown this (in previous years) year or SWG has below 12k players (when officer numbers were around the same level), is lying.
I've read the Cat write things I disagree with, but I've never known him to lie. Making an incorrect prediction isn't lying, and I have never read him make the claim that SWG had only 12K subs.
Let me try again. Firstly, i play on about 3 servers, and am fully aware of population problems on quite a few of the 25. Now when i log onto my server(s) and am pleased with the populations, i dont think it gives a good view of the overall health of the game - but, the fact that at least a few, whichi guess people transfer to are very much playable. 25 servers is quite a lot for any game, let alone a game as old as SWG, its no wonder, after the NGE, that it needs server merging.
See to me that is EXACTLY the point of the entire issue.. regardless of what side you are on.
How I am going to work this is being a problem for me atm so here goes..
25 servers wasn't an issue until SOE/LA made it an issue.
When they decided to change things for this "larger audience" that they thought they could capture.
It became an issue...
They didn't do anything to make it a NON issue.
So now people sit around and talk about server mergers.
To me that is the most basic problem with what happened. If you try something and have an epic fail... its usually a good idea to go back to what actually worked.
Yes we've been over all of that many times.
It just.. I've seen this statement before in a few different forms.
25 servers was not an issue until it was made an issue PERIOD.
No I don't have a solution to the problem now other than mergers... yes classic servers could get customers. how many? who knows. Both LA/SOE have obviously moved beyond this and are just letting time pass as the next project is worked on.
With as many crap project that come into the MMO market and how many are shut down before they get crapped out... Its not beyond reason that a successful game can stay that way for years.
SWG was different... that alone made it compete in a smaller market (no classes/levels etc.. great working player economy.. all that stuff nobody else really has atm).
Again we've said all this before...
If people still enjoy the game then play it. I've had some games I loved taken away or shut down... once its gone you can never see it again.
The way the market is going I am not sure I'll ever find a MMO worth playing again.
So again in closing.. if you are enjoying this game atm.. more power to you and take every minute you can before the day does come...
I wish I could claim I still enjoyed it.
This is probably the last year I even bother to look at MMO's... that's just my own personal thing tho.. so don't try to read anything else into that ;p
The difference between the fanboi trolls and us is that we don't have to lie. All we have to do is repost verifiable lies told by SOE, and report the actions they took. For example: Smed: "The CU is here to stay"
you dont have to lie? then why do you - just off the top of my head, and believe me, there have been many times you've lied, anytime you've claimed SWG will shutdown this (in previous years) year or SWG has below 12k players (when officer numbers were around the same level), is lying.
That is a lie. I've never claimed SWG had 12K subs. I have stated what sources have told me. You, on the other hand, claim 50K subs with nothing to back that up. Unless you are a source from SOE.
As to the subscriber populations being very low, this is a fact that isn't even in dispute. Your message boards are dominated by complaints of low populations and requests for server merges, for example, something that was NOT the case as recently as a year ago, indicating to me that populations have gone down, not up in the past year.
Every post I've made about the sub number have been OPINIONS. I'm telling you what I think, and yes, I am basing that thought on sources that I will not name. An opinion cannot be a lie.
Stating "The CU is here to stay" at a moment (4 months prior to the NGE) at a time when the NGE had to be in the beginning stages of development IS a bald face lie. Selling an expansion by advertising features for professions that would be removed 2 weeks after release is also a lie. Posting all sorts of stuff about revamps for professions that would be removed (Ranger was one) on the forums <2 months before the NGE is also a lie.
There are definitely people involved in this mess who lie and deceive. It's not the vets. We don't need to lie. Your side does.
You fanboi trolls help us keep the fight alive by giving us someone to argue down. Well, more like nuke, since your arguments aren't very good.
The best way the fanbois could silence us would be to shut up themselves. The threads and conversation will eventually die off. But they have this stupid idea that the best way to defend SOE and revive the NGE is to somehow "counter the lies" of the veterans.
Which doesn't work. In order to counter our "lies" they have to prove that we ARE lying. Which is the easiest attack in the world to knock out of the ballpark since the truth (which is on our side) is the absolute nuke to such straw man tactics.
It also doesn't help that we have lie after lie after lie told by SOE to shove back down their throats as well. This makes them look foolish.
In the end, it accomplishes NOTHING for them and in fact furthers our cause: the destruction of the NGE.
Quoted from Salvaje:
The SWG ship sank long ago.
And yes, the word I am getting from my sources is that CH9 may never happen at all (or be the last) and that they are down now to 12.5K ish paying subs, though they double that in trials and vet trials. They probably will get a little bounce from CH8, but not much.
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Ok, you've never directly claimed 12k subs, to my knowledge - but isnt claiming from your 'sources' the same thing - it is completely unfounded, with abosultely no evidence, in other words its you or one of your friends making it up. And by the looks of it, they clearly are wrong as CH9 may never happen at all? well all the details have been released - and the next couple of weeks will show us the true answer, revealing how right your sources are. Now, im not sure ive every claimed 50k out of thin air - ive taken it when others have been discussing it and i may have once used it in accordance with DM's statement.
Theres always been posts asking for server merges etc, maybe more so now since there are enough people to actually be concerned, now believing the game can improve and maybe because more have transferred, thus the low pop servers have become even less populated - look on the chilastra, bloodfin, bria, chimaera etc boards, i doubt theres many there calling for merges. If there was 250k and 25 servers back at its height, and the servers were well populated, as we lovingly remember, then its not a farcry to believe that a considerably lower number could populate 5 main servers and be spread thinly across the rest, making the main ones well populated servers (50k??? im not claiming this, just pondering over it). Im afraid it is lying if you say, without qualifying that it is your 'source's' opinions, that the game will shutdown in <insert next month here> or that the population is <insert random number here>.
Im not going to go off topic and go into all those SOE statements (though most of them were lies, which is bad) now, but on one side note, CH necklaces are useable now, i know thats no excuse since a pet system wasnt around for a year or so.
So wait, our arguments arent very good? thats because you dont reply to the 10s of times me or obraik or someone else completely rinses you on a subject and points out that your knowledge of the current game is somewhat lacking. You guys would still be here ranting over all this stuff whether people like me were here or not - im not on any crusade, i simply wish to correct, and discuss my own opinions, it'd be folly to think coming to these MMORPG forums could do anything to help the game - if i was wanting to recruit, this would be the last place id go.
You cant seem to separate two things: the lies they told and the screw up that was the NGE as opposed to the game now, and its new developers. Therefore, when you tell me some lies they may have said, it doesnt make me look stupid, because im not disputing them.
I, as well, am willing to make a claim that SWG has less than 50k subs. Why would I make that claim? Around the time before the NGE was mentioned, subs were reported around 250k. After the NGE, subs were reported at somewhere around 50k. Take into account the excuse that SOE was giving about over time the subs trickle and it ofcourse comes out to somewhere below 50k. I'm not going to make up a number as fact. My guess is around 20k-25k, in that area (just a guess though).
Corbantis used to have a very good population (heavy back in Pre CU, don't know about CU, probably Medium). When I went back last December, there was probably 1/4 the population, travelling from planet to planet checking. I even checked out Bria and saw maybe half of what I used to see there.
Whether the numbers are true or not isn't the important thing to me. I had a complex, Star Wars world in which I could be whatever I put my skills into, just what I dreamed of as a kid. It was my first endeavor into the MMO world as well, so it was a new experience to say the least. With the NGE, my love of Star Wars slowly faded. That's what is the most important thing to me and may be true for many of us who quit and can't seem to get back into it.
As for the population. You can have all the people you want playing the game, but with the NGE, the heart was taken from SWG. There isn't a soul there anymore, it's just a game.
They just had another free trial period for former players, meaning that a large portion of the folks who used to play but no longer do, for some unknown reason that has nothing to do with the fact that SWG is currently the worst MMO on the market (yes, that includes all those RMT based Asian grinder games), were able to log into the game for free. The servers are still barren, including the ones listed as 'Heavy' (which was one, plus four medium, six light, and the rest listed at very light). The new copy of the newbie space station on Bria had a total of three people on it just after 8:00 PM two Saturdays ago. There were about six AFK people in front of the Theed Starport, along with three other players, including a level grinding service spammer. Mos Eisley had another level grinding spammer (both of which offer their services in exchange for in-game credits, which is perfectly legal with the recent AFK play changes) and probably around thirty others, including several AFK entertainers at the cantina. The game is dead, which isn't surprising considering it is the least fun MMO available at the moment.
Combat is horrid, the default UI seems to have been put together by Helen Keller, character movement is ridiculous, and even with servers that are empty, the game still runs like a dog. Even space is lagging more than it used to, primarily because they had to greatly increase the spawn rated of NPC ships for the space kill collections that there is nobody doing. The positive thing SWG has in its favor is the Star Wars skins on the graphics.
The fact that a game this bad exists is dumbfounding. The fact that there are people who willingly pay to play it is unfathomable. The fact that there are people who come to this forum to announce they willingly pay to play the mess that is SWG is just sad.
Saay, I see your point about someone making claims of having inside sources and I'm sceptical also. However it isn't to hard to log onto a vet trial and see the shape the game is in. It is actually pretty easy to fly around for a week and get just as familiar with the population (not mechanics) of the game in that time.
So again, just because someone doesn't pay a subscription doesn't mean they can't see with their own eyes. It also doesn't mean that the game can't be taking in new subscribers, but almost EVERYTHING speak to the opposite of that except one thing... you. It is very much like how you paint many other things in SWG on these forums.
As for the population growing, where is it at? When the game had 250-300k people I could fly to any number of cities and see it bursting with people. 100's of people in one place in some cases. Even the off world cities or rural areas had handfuls of people. I couldn't travel between two point in the wilderness without seeing people running around. Now though there is one city I can go to and expect to see maybe 30? people which is something I would see just in one cantina in numerous places. The rest of the games towns, including player cities are either empty or maybe a small handful of people? So if this 50k number has any merit where are all the people hiding? No more excuses of "people are in different places now" or "they are out adventuring". People adventured pre-cu and there was always social hotspots, that goes for every MMO. They all develope social hotspots and seeing the SWG is perhaps the game that is designed for the most social interaction between players, where is everyone?
If there are still 50k people playing I would expect to see 20% of what I saw prior to that.
Who cares anymore, it'll be pulled when LA thinks the population ahs diminished enough and I doubt that'll happen- I wouldn't be surprised if SWG fell to 5K users and still be licensed. Someone was saying that LA may pull the carpet under Bioware to go back to SOE for the new MMO project, that might be a mistake but right now I don't believe it.
Originally posted by Daffid011 As for the population growing, where is it at? When the game had 250-300k people I could fly to any number of cities and see it bursting with people. 100's of people in one place in some cases.
I was used to seeing this many people, and this was on a regular daily weekday and not just Coronet- you could go to Theed, Mining outpost, Dath science outpost and Bestine, you'd know what it was like on weekends. There were at times, 4 lines and this was on Lowca which was regularily "light":
Comments
Personally I believe there is a contract between Lucas Arts and SOE, but it certainly wasn't for a short term deal like 3 years (to those predicting shutdown in 2006). It most likely had an exclusive agreement for a number of years and also each company had an exit clause if certain conditions were met. For Lucas it was most likely money or subscribers, not idea for SOE. There is certainly a morales clause so that SOE can't go crazy blaming SOE for any problems and visa versa.
I don't think this game will run until it isn't profitable. More likely the contract is just now comming up for renewal time, but I don't think either company is ready to cut and run yet. Lucas most likely wants something on the market to take SWG place so they have presence *and not screw the pooch again*. SOE desperately needs something big to replace SWG on the station pass should it go away.
Either way I think the game is living on borrowed time with both companies. I didn't find the game shutting down due to contracts or licensing in 2006 or 2007 all that plausable, but I am starting to find it more reasonable as time goes on. 2008 puts the game in the 5 year range which seem like a sound contract number. My guess, if it is right, would leave both companies signing short term deals until a handy excuse comes along.
It isn't like you have access to insider information or SOE data just because you pay a subscription. I'm not saying you a lying in the least and I recognize your numbers as opinions just like everyone else is discussing their opinions.
The only difference between your numbers and those you cry foul against is that you see the game through rose colored glasses and they don't share your opinion. In the end you are doing exactly what you are telling someone else not to do.
This is rich - *I* see the game through rose tinted glasses? lol you have so many things you could say yet you chose to say that - the most backward thing possible. You may very well be the ones with rose tinted glasses; i hated the NGE when it hit, i was outraged as was almost everyone else, but through my own choice and for love of the community i stuck at it and persevered - eventually (and it took a while) things started getting better, and i took the game for what it was - nothing like the pre-cu, nor as good as, but better, imo, than any other game. I continue to be objective when discussing the game and agree that there are still many things needed fixing and changing, off the top of my head (the levelling system and BM grinding).
You (and i wont talk about you personally, as i dont you you too well compared to people like salvaje) however continue to bash a game you know nothing about - comparing it every second to pre-cu and what it used to be, crying it that it used to be better. And on the rare occasions some of you take up the trials, well, there couldnt be anything more tinted; you fail to try to get into anything the game has offered has new and take a completely negative view of the game - essentially you try to not have fun, thats the main aim, so you can come back here and make yet another negative "i went back post".
About the numbers stuff - im not contradicting myself or being a hypocrit, im merely pointing out that we both have no solid figures and we both may be biased, (though you guys are usually more so) but i, in contrast to you, play the game and thus have some sort of evidence. And as i said, i could be lying but if i was, wouldnt i claim a much larger, healthier number (as so many of you have claimed 50k is terrible).
Finally, to Salvaje, why cant you understand that everyone knows you're numbers are complete outrught lies; wishful thinking. Why would anyone believe that you believe "sources" of which you have told nothing, when you blatantly lie so often and many have proved you wrong on many things, not just populations.
I have played the NGE. I do know what it's like, and how it plays, and how shallow it is compared to Pre-CU. i know that you have to spend HOURS remapping your keyboard and writing macros to make up for the horrible UI. I also know that it's unplayable without UI mods, and a mod that takes out most of the particle effects. I'm not someone who quit the day the NGE came out and bashes it out of ignorance.
Out of (in hindsight) naive false hope, I stayed around and played the NGE first until summer 2006, then again for a few months in 2007. Most recently I logged into yet another free trial just weeks ago. I tried to bargain with them, I tried to work from within, first asking for changes that would make the game better, then, failing that, asking for classic servers so that everyone could have what they wanted. All I got for that was grief, unjustified forum bans, and greater wisdom, in that I will NEVER trust a software company at their word ever again.
It's not been all bad though, I have sources in the industry that have given me greater insight into how things work than I ever would have had. I certainly now know enough to be able to tell when a MMO company is "A SOE" and when they aren't. SOE deserves every bit of vile and venom that we throw at it.
But don't tell me that the vets have no insight into how the NGE works. Almost ALL of us have played it, and even recently, due to the trials, and due to fanbois LYING to us convincing us to come back, "it's better now, really". Inevitably we don't stay because it isn't better, they've done NOTHING to remove that which is the worst about the NGE, such as the static classes, the starter Jedi, and crafting sucking. They never will do anything about those things (and you don't even claim that they have) which is a dealbreaker for almost all the vets.
Until they either offer classic, or go on a "Manhattan Project" to De-NGE the NGE, we aren't coming back. And we are FULLY justified in saying, that compared to the game we loved and lost, the NGE sucks, and sucks hard. Apparently we aren't any sort of "vocal minority of forum terrorists" but in fact the majority, given that 20+ of the 25 servers are virtually empty now.
Saay,
You chastised someone for making up subscriber numbers for the game and then did the exact same thing yourself. That is NOT being objective in the least and thus my rose colored glasses comment. It doesn't matter if you still play the game or not as it give you no more authority or access to subscription numbers than anyone else who might play, even if only for a few weeks. To put a silly spin on your claims of "at least having some evidence", just how long does someone have to play SWG before their opinions and speculations on populations are as educated as your own? 1 day? 5 weeks? what is the magic number?
I was long since gone from SWG when the NGE mess happened so don't lump me into that crowd. Yes the game was better before the combat upgrade and the NGE, but it was still a big giant steaming pile mess then too. It is an even bigger mess now. The title has been just one big folly of mismanagement after another with little to no signs of changing. It is the car crash you just can't stop staring at in morbid fascination.
However, just because you have lowered your SWG standards and accept "the game for what it is" doesn't automatically invalidate anyone elses experiences of views just because they don't want to pay for a busted product. In fact, despite your opinion of my SWG past, I agree with you that the community is awesome and there are great aspects of the game, even in the current shape it is. I also think the game has huge potential, but I stopped paying for games that have potential and don't deliver. Let alone one that is run by a company that treats its customers as disposable and with such disdain.
I applaud you Salvaje, this is the type of response i like rather that "SWG will shutdown in spring 08".
However, all that you've said is not entirely true. While i hate jedi being a starting class, and believe this should be changed, crafting however has been improved, they've given more reasons for it to exist and made them alot more viable and useful, and continue to do so. The WS update soon will hopefully address the issues around it, being the most controversial and Droid Commander will provide yet more content for DEs. They have made efforts to address static classes, such as expertise, continuing to add to them, then adding extra trees such as BM and droid commander.
Many of the vets on this forum, whether you like it or not, DO seem to know very little about certain parts of the game, you are included. I do know, however, that many vets do know what they're talking about as well though. There are many instances of me, obraik and others correcting you on many discussed issues. Just because you logged into the game, PvP'ed for an hour, cried in disgust (or delight, as i suspect, giving you more ammunition) not really getting into any of the depth of the game and didnt properly join and partake in a guild, experience new systems etc, doesnt mean you know everything that the average player would. Im afraid to say it, but your glasses are so rose-tinted im surprised you can see through them at all.
Guy I quit this game at the end of last year, this game does really blow..... and the current players are either fanbois or mentally challenged that this game is actually even enteraining, the collection system, the heroics are just one big bore fest.... Im sorry ut this game just needs to die.......NOW!!!
Everything I said is true. I do not lie.
The NGE is the complete repudiation of Pre CU. It resembles it in only the most mockingly parody way.
It's dying. Hell, it's already dead, really. It died the day that the Devs decided to not roll back no matter HOW many subs quit.
I've played it. I've seen my 200 member guild shrink to 10. I've seen the inability to get a group for anything, even on BLOODFIN, which is the #1 or #2 server. I've seen all achievements made, even post NGE invalidated more than once.
I have all the in game experience I need to refute the fanbois point by point.
Which is why I am (proclaimed by Smed no less) the public enemy #1 of SOE. As I am. I want to see the company destroyed and everyone who works there working as a team... At a Taco Bell..
Which they might even be mildly qualified for. But I won't eat there...
I took the number someone else was discussing, a number that was stated by Deadmeat, and a number that seems actaully possible. Regardless my point was that no one has any hard evidence, but where as Salvaje has virtually no evidence at all to back himself up (just his "sources") - I actually play the game regularly and see whats going on it and see what the populations are actually like. I dont know how long someone has to play, m simply saying ive been through all the NGE and have seen the numbers and many here have simply logged on for a day or two on a trial or not at all. Plus, they hate SOE with a passion and have lots of reason to be extremely biased against them, it being Salvaje's mission to take them down - but im here for no other reason than to discuss and correct, im not here to try to get anybody back - this is the last place id go if i wanted to recruit new players.
Im not trying to say anyone else's view are invalidated, im trying to stop them making stuff up all the time and constantly bashing a game, they, in some cases know little about, over 2 years after they last cared about it. I was simply stating that im no fanbois who hates every incarnation of the game except NGE, i used to love it, but the reason i still play is that i enjoy it because im not constantly comparing it with previous incarnations - in other words, ive accepted that Pre-CU is not returning, i think most people can see thats pretty obvious.
You throwing numbers out there isn't lying or speculating, but me doing so is?
How could your number be any less of a guess than mine (and mine aren't guesses, they do come from sources and do jibe with the empirical evidence) unless you work for SOE and have access to the numbers?
And I note that all you do to dispute the numbers I float out there is to argue only that the number is slightly higher. Not much of an argument, you still concede the loss of 200,000-250,000 subscribers since the CUNGE.
Which is a rather moot point. What even Saay, the world's #1 SOE apologist, admits is that the NGE was a catastrophe and a miserable failure, having lost in excess of 200,000 players and having only a tiny percentage of it's old sub base left.
You play the game and seem to think that somehow makes your views more right than anyone else. You have no idea how long someone has to be logged in to get a good feel for the population, but since it isn't as long as yourself then it is invalid. Even though you want to hide behind statements about not wanting to invalidate others views, that is what you are doing. Fine, but don't do the same thing you denounce others for.
The only difference between your rational of being suitable to quote populations is that you like the game and those who claim otherwise are wrong because they don't like the game. It ends there. Honestly I don't think you "see what populations are actually like" on all 25 servers as you offhandedly suggest. More likely you log on and play on your normal server and think that is somehow indicitive of the overall health of the games population because as you said yourself there are enough people to group with and you have met new players which is exteremly open to misrepresentation. Much like the "I have enough people to play with so I don't care how many people play the game" comments made in other failing games.
Despite the fact that most vets speak of ghost towns and empty cities across a spectrum of servers. That the login list shows almost all the servers as very light populations. That thread after thread on the official forums beg for character transfers or server mergers. Not to mention the general malaise of the players when talking about the game getting fixed. That there hasn't been a box game manufacturered or stocked in stores for a long long long time. There is no advertising campaign at all. Yet despite all these things everyone else is wrong and you are right that the game is growing and you have special insight about the games numbers to make those claims. Enough so to call other people wrong for speculating when you do the exact same thing?
Your point was never about anyone not having hard numbers, your point was that people who don't like the game are wrong and you are right because you still play and you want them to stop bashing your game. That is why you are in the vet forums hitting the hornets nest with a stick.
Im not trying to say anyone else's view are invalidated, im trying to stop them making stuff up all the time and constantly bashing a game, they, in some cases know little about, over 2 years after they last cared about it. I was simply stating that im no fanbois who hates every incarnation of the game except NGE, i used to love it, but the reason i still play is that i enjoy it because im not constantly comparing it with previous incarnations - in other words, ive accepted that Pre-CU is not returning, i think most people can see thats pretty obvious.
Why do you care? What business is it of yours if people have a different opinion than yours? How does people bashing the game and bashing SOE affact you at all? AT least the people bashing SOE and the game have some REASON fo doing what they are doing -- they feel they have been wronged, and feel something they loved was taken away from them. Whether they are right or they are wrong, at least they have a REASON for posting.
Are you claiming to be such a lover of "truth "that you can not let such "lies" stand? If so, why take such a stance over a VIDEO GAME? If you are a sincerely lover of truth for truth's sake, aren't there other places you would rather engage in this truth monitoring of yours? Aren't there lies being spread out there in the real world that would have far more meaning, in the grand scheme of things?
Why spend so much time on this?
fishermage.blogspot.com
The difference between the fanboi trolls and us is that we don't have to lie. All we have to do is repost verifiable lies told by SOE, and report the actions they took.
For example: Smed: "The CU is here to stay"
you dont have to lie? then why do you - just off the top of my head, and believe me, there have been many times you've lied, anytime you've claimed SWG will shutdown this (in previous years) year or SWG has below 12k players (when officer numbers were around the same level), is lying.
I'd wager George will live at least another 10yrs, so it'll be awhile.
Ok, about the 'how long you have to be in the game' issue; I dont know how long, and it would depend on alot of variable factors such as where you went and what you did, but my point is, regardless of these things, not that 'ive played alot so i must know the populations', its the fact that ive played through all the NGE and thus i am able to compare it at it's different stages. So i can remember what it was like when Deadmeat stated 50k subs was too low or when someone supposedly hacked in and found out the concurrent login statistics etc. This viewpoint is very helpful.
Now again, i dont believe i have anything over the views of others, but when someone who doesnt play the game, (salvaje) claims 25k subs at most, saying that his 'sources' told him - i am inclined to ask him to refrain since he has absolutely no idea. I was never overtly claiming numbers from thin air, i was using the same numbers others were discussing.
On a side note, theres a good few servers that usually show medium-heavy on the list. Many of the things you listed in that paragraph are open to interpretation, like saying there are ghost towns - they usually speak of places the used to hang out in, back in the day. Just because people want server merges or char transfers doesnt mean the game cannot be taking in new players. I've never claimed the game is growing exponentially, but to me (and of course you'll bash me on this) compared to what it used to be a year ago, there are a lot more new players etc. My point is that some of the people, here, not everyone by any means, are wrong yes, and i feel its best to improve their knowledge on the issues and stop people claiming numbers that are clearly made up. My aim was never to stop people bashing the game, since im sensible enough to know thats never going to happen, my aim is to provide the opposite viewpoint, and to try to be objective, and give proper information on certain things (im talking generally here, obviously i have no information on populations other than what i see and the thread where i was asked to post pictures of a typical night in restuss or in the cantina). So im summation, Salvaje, is not speculating he is wrongly stating, he does it the entire time, a few weeks ago it was 12k, now its 25k, the same as he says SWG will shutdown spring 08, then shys away from the statement as the time period progresses. Whereas i may speculate (with some backing), i rarely claim any numbers myself, just say what i see.
you dont have to lie? then why do you - just off the top of my head, and believe me, there have been many times you've lied, anytime you've claimed SWG will shutdown this (in previous years) year or SWG has below 12k players (when officer numbers were around the same level), is lying.
That is a lie. I've never claimed SWG had 12K subs. I have stated what sources have told me. You, on the other hand, claim 50K subs with nothing to back that up. Unless you are a source from SOE.
As to the subscriber populations being very low, this is a fact that isn't even in dispute. Your message boards are dominated by complaints of low populations and requests for server merges, for example, something that was NOT the case as recently as a year ago, indicating to me that populations have gone down, not up in the past year.
Every post I've made about the sub number have been OPINIONS. I'm telling you what I think, and yes, I am basing that thought on sources that I will not name. An opinion cannot be a lie.
Stating "The CU is here to stay" at a moment (4 months prior to the NGE) at a time when the NGE had to be in the beginning stages of development IS a bald face lie. Selling an expansion by advertising features for professions that would be removed 2 weeks after release is also a lie. Posting all sorts of stuff about revamps for professions that would be removed (Ranger was one) on the forums <2 months before the NGE is also a lie.
There are definitely people involved in this mess who lie and deceive. It's not the vets. We don't need to lie. Your side does.
You fanboi trolls help us keep the fight alive by giving us someone to argue down. Well, more like nuke, since your arguments aren't very good.
The best way the fanbois could silence us would be to shut up themselves. The threads and conversation will eventually die off. But they have this stupid idea that the best way to defend SOE and revive the NGE is to somehow "counter the lies" of the veterans.
Which doesn't work. In order to counter our "lies" they have to prove that we ARE lying. Which is the easiest attack in the world to knock out of the ballpark since the truth (which is on our side) is the absolute nuke to such straw man tactics.
It also doesn't help that we have lie after lie after lie told by SOE to shove back down their throats as well. This makes them look foolish.
In the end, it accomplishes NOTHING for them and in fact furthers our cause: the destruction of the NGE.
SWG isn't going anywhere for a long long time, I don't even play SWG, but I know it isn't going anywhere.
They will extend the license for as long as they want. At least until another developer comes along who says they can do SWG even better and for less.
The reason is pretty simple, to shutdown SWG you have to shut down SOE. As much as all the vets think they have "done something" significant, they have not, taking away subs from SWG does nothing but affect just that... the population of SWG. SOE has enough money through all it's networks to keep SWG servers alive and working until doomsday. The year 5050 if they so choosed.
To truly shut down SWG you first have to shut down SOE, and all the SWG vets on planet earth never buying another SOE product till they die will not put a dent in SOE's bankroll.
So all these endless threads of nothingness get tiresome.
SOE is a sub division of SONY..... Anyone living on planet earth for the past 20 years know what sony produces, TV's, DVD Players, BLUERay, Music, various and countless electronics, movies, and online entertainment. Pretty much EVERYTHING!!!!.
Sony is not affected in the least by Salvje's personal war against them, nor are they affected by any other vet's personal vendetta's.
Anyone who thinks... BAM I GOT SOE NOW THEY ARE ON THE RUN... is very naive. These endless threads about sticking it to SOE, very tiresome.
I've read the Cat write things I disagree with, but I've never known him to lie. Making an incorrect prediction isn't lying, and I have never read him make the claim that SWG had only 12K subs.
Why do YOU lie?
fishermage.blogspot.com
How I am going to work this is being a problem for me atm so here goes..
25 servers wasn't an issue until SOE/LA made it an issue.
When they decided to change things for this "larger audience" that they thought they could capture.
It became an issue...
They didn't do anything to make it a NON issue.
So now people sit around and talk about server mergers.
To me that is the most basic problem with what happened. If you try something and have an epic fail... its usually a good idea to go back to what actually worked.
Yes we've been over all of that many times.
It just.. I've seen this statement before in a few different forms.
25 servers was not an issue until it was made an issue PERIOD.
No I don't have a solution to the problem now other than mergers... yes classic servers could get customers. how many? who knows. Both LA/SOE have obviously moved beyond this and are just letting time pass as the next project is worked on.
With as many crap project that come into the MMO market and how many are shut down before they get crapped out... Its not beyond reason that a successful game can stay that way for years.
SWG was different... that alone made it compete in a smaller market (no classes/levels etc.. great working player economy.. all that stuff nobody else really has atm).
Again we've said all this before...
If people still enjoy the game then play it. I've had some games I loved taken away or shut down... once its gone you can never see it again.
The way the market is going I am not sure I'll ever find a MMO worth playing again.
So again in closing.. if you are enjoying this game atm.. more power to you and take every minute you can before the day does come...
I wish I could claim I still enjoyed it.
This is probably the last year I even bother to look at MMO's... that's just my own personal thing tho.. so don't try to read anything else into that ;p
you dont have to lie? then why do you - just off the top of my head, and believe me, there have been many times you've lied, anytime you've claimed SWG will shutdown this (in previous years) year or SWG has below 12k players (when officer numbers were around the same level), is lying.
That is a lie. I've never claimed SWG had 12K subs. I have stated what sources have told me. You, on the other hand, claim 50K subs with nothing to back that up. Unless you are a source from SOE.
As to the subscriber populations being very low, this is a fact that isn't even in dispute. Your message boards are dominated by complaints of low populations and requests for server merges, for example, something that was NOT the case as recently as a year ago, indicating to me that populations have gone down, not up in the past year.
Every post I've made about the sub number have been OPINIONS. I'm telling you what I think, and yes, I am basing that thought on sources that I will not name. An opinion cannot be a lie.
Stating "The CU is here to stay" at a moment (4 months prior to the NGE) at a time when the NGE had to be in the beginning stages of development IS a bald face lie. Selling an expansion by advertising features for professions that would be removed 2 weeks after release is also a lie. Posting all sorts of stuff about revamps for professions that would be removed (Ranger was one) on the forums <2 months before the NGE is also a lie.
There are definitely people involved in this mess who lie and deceive. It's not the vets. We don't need to lie. Your side does.
You fanboi trolls help us keep the fight alive by giving us someone to argue down. Well, more like nuke, since your arguments aren't very good.
The best way the fanbois could silence us would be to shut up themselves. The threads and conversation will eventually die off. But they have this stupid idea that the best way to defend SOE and revive the NGE is to somehow "counter the lies" of the veterans.
Which doesn't work. In order to counter our "lies" they have to prove that we ARE lying. Which is the easiest attack in the world to knock out of the ballpark since the truth (which is on our side) is the absolute nuke to such straw man tactics.
It also doesn't help that we have lie after lie after lie told by SOE to shove back down their throats as well. This makes them look foolish.
In the end, it accomplishes NOTHING for them and in fact furthers our cause: the destruction of the NGE.
Quoted from Salvaje:
The SWG ship sank long ago.
And yes, the word I am getting from my sources is that CH9 may never happen at all (or be the last) and that they are down now to 12.5K ish paying subs, though they double that in trials and vet trials. They probably will get a little bounce from CH8, but not much.
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Ok, you've never directly claimed 12k subs, to my knowledge - but isnt claiming from your 'sources' the same thing - it is completely unfounded, with abosultely no evidence, in other words its you or one of your friends making it up. And by the looks of it, they clearly are wrong as CH9 may never happen at all? well all the details have been released - and the next couple of weeks will show us the true answer, revealing how right your sources are. Now, im not sure ive every claimed 50k out of thin air - ive taken it when others have been discussing it and i may have once used it in accordance with DM's statement.
Theres always been posts asking for server merges etc, maybe more so now since there are enough people to actually be concerned, now believing the game can improve and maybe because more have transferred, thus the low pop servers have become even less populated - look on the chilastra, bloodfin, bria, chimaera etc boards, i doubt theres many there calling for merges. If there was 250k and 25 servers back at its height, and the servers were well populated, as we lovingly remember, then its not a farcry to believe that a considerably lower number could populate 5 main servers and be spread thinly across the rest, making the main ones well populated servers (50k??? im not claiming this, just pondering over it). Im afraid it is lying if you say, without qualifying that it is your 'source's' opinions, that the game will shutdown in <insert next month here> or that the population is <insert random number here>.
Im not going to go off topic and go into all those SOE statements (though most of them were lies, which is bad) now, but on one side note, CH necklaces are useable now, i know thats no excuse since a pet system wasnt around for a year or so.
So wait, our arguments arent very good? thats because you dont reply to the 10s of times me or obraik or someone else completely rinses you on a subject and points out that your knowledge of the current game is somewhat lacking. You guys would still be here ranting over all this stuff whether people like me were here or not - im not on any crusade, i simply wish to correct, and discuss my own opinions, it'd be folly to think coming to these MMORPG forums could do anything to help the game - if i was wanting to recruit, this would be the last place id go.
You cant seem to separate two things: the lies they told and the screw up that was the NGE as opposed to the game now, and its new developers. Therefore, when you tell me some lies they may have said, it doesnt make me look stupid, because im not disputing them.
I, as well, am willing to make a claim that SWG has less than 50k subs. Why would I make that claim? Around the time before the NGE was mentioned, subs were reported around 250k. After the NGE, subs were reported at somewhere around 50k. Take into account the excuse that SOE was giving about over time the subs trickle and it ofcourse comes out to somewhere below 50k. I'm not going to make up a number as fact. My guess is around 20k-25k, in that area (just a guess though).
Corbantis used to have a very good population (heavy back in Pre CU, don't know about CU, probably Medium). When I went back last December, there was probably 1/4 the population, travelling from planet to planet checking. I even checked out Bria and saw maybe half of what I used to see there.
Whether the numbers are true or not isn't the important thing to me. I had a complex, Star Wars world in which I could be whatever I put my skills into, just what I dreamed of as a kid. It was my first endeavor into the MMO world as well, so it was a new experience to say the least. With the NGE, my love of Star Wars slowly faded. That's what is the most important thing to me and may be true for many of us who quit and can't seem to get back into it.
As for the population. You can have all the people you want playing the game, but with the NGE, the heart was taken from SWG. There isn't a soul there anymore, it's just a game.
They just had another free trial period for former players, meaning that a large portion of the folks who used to play but no longer do, for some unknown reason that has nothing to do with the fact that SWG is currently the worst MMO on the market (yes, that includes all those RMT based Asian grinder games), were able to log into the game for free. The servers are still barren, including the ones listed as 'Heavy' (which was one, plus four medium, six light, and the rest listed at very light). The new copy of the newbie space station on Bria had a total of three people on it just after 8:00 PM two Saturdays ago. There were about six AFK people in front of the Theed Starport, along with three other players, including a level grinding service spammer. Mos Eisley had another level grinding spammer (both of which offer their services in exchange for in-game credits, which is perfectly legal with the recent AFK play changes) and probably around thirty others, including several AFK entertainers at the cantina. The game is dead, which isn't surprising considering it is the least fun MMO available at the moment.
Combat is horrid, the default UI seems to have been put together by Helen Keller, character movement is ridiculous, and even with servers that are empty, the game still runs like a dog. Even space is lagging more than it used to, primarily because they had to greatly increase the spawn rated of NPC ships for the space kill collections that there is nobody doing. The positive thing SWG has in its favor is the Star Wars skins on the graphics.
The fact that a game this bad exists is dumbfounding. The fact that there are people who willingly pay to play it is unfathomable. The fact that there are people who come to this forum to announce they willingly pay to play the mess that is SWG is just sad.
Saay, I see your point about someone making claims of having inside sources and I'm sceptical also. However it isn't to hard to log onto a vet trial and see the shape the game is in. It is actually pretty easy to fly around for a week and get just as familiar with the population (not mechanics) of the game in that time.
So again, just because someone doesn't pay a subscription doesn't mean they can't see with their own eyes. It also doesn't mean that the game can't be taking in new subscribers, but almost EVERYTHING speak to the opposite of that except one thing... you. It is very much like how you paint many other things in SWG on these forums.
As for the population growing, where is it at? When the game had 250-300k people I could fly to any number of cities and see it bursting with people. 100's of people in one place in some cases. Even the off world cities or rural areas had handfuls of people. I couldn't travel between two point in the wilderness without seeing people running around. Now though there is one city I can go to and expect to see maybe 30? people which is something I would see just in one cantina in numerous places. The rest of the games towns, including player cities are either empty or maybe a small handful of people? So if this 50k number has any merit where are all the people hiding? No more excuses of "people are in different places now" or "they are out adventuring". People adventured pre-cu and there was always social hotspots, that goes for every MMO. They all develope social hotspots and seeing the SWG is perhaps the game that is designed for the most social interaction between players, where is everyone?
If there are still 50k people playing I would expect to see 20% of what I saw prior to that.
Who cares anymore, it'll be pulled when LA thinks the population ahs diminished enough and I doubt that'll happen- I wouldn't be surprised if SWG fell to 5K users and still be licensed. Someone was saying that LA may pull the carpet under Bioware to go back to SOE for the new MMO project, that might be a mistake but right now I don't believe it.
I was used to seeing this many people, and this was on a regular daily weekday and not just Coronet- you could go to Theed, Mining outpost, Dath science outpost and Bestine, you'd know what it was like on weekends. There were at times, 4 lines and this was on Lowca which was regularily "light":
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=353813
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=65155