It doesn't even matter who's right. What matters is that we are all people paying for entertainment and we each want what we want. Why should one segment of the player base be sacrificed to please the other? That's why the seperate servers idea is a fantastically good idea. Each group could have what they want and we could stop butting heads with each other. And it's really so simple. All the devs would have to do is develop content in the normal way and then simply adjust it on the non-raid servers so that it could be used by small groups instead of large groups. Then people could choose which type of server to play on based on the type of end-game they want (large group or small group) and, hopefully, we could all stop yelling at each other.
No, its not this simple. Here's the fundamental flaw in your argument. No single game can be designed to accommodate every style of play. A game really has to decide what it wants to focus on at end game, and then stick to those principals for the most part. It cannot be all inclusive, no matter how big or how much money there is to spend developing it.
You guys are suggesting they create raiding and non-raiding servers. Other folks want PVE only servers, with no PVP. Other groups want FFA PVP with full looting. Other people want RVR combat, and a PVP centric end game. Yet more players want Role playing servers of all these types.
It just can't be done folks. So what generally happens is developers pick a couple of variants from the above and try to deliver them. It seems to me whenever they try to cover too many bases the game is doomed for failure. Maybe one day a developer will consider making a no raid/raid server, but I'm betting against it.
Say what you will about WOW, but they continue to do a great job trying to broaden the games rewards to accommodate both the PVP and PVE raiding crowd. Seems like they still need to do a bit more work for the casual PVE player.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Kyleran
No, its not this simple. Here's the fundamental flaw in your argument. No single game can be designed to accommodate every style of play. A game really has to decide what it wants to focus on at end game, and then stick to those principals for the most part. It cannot be all inclusive, no matter how big or how much money there is to spend developing it. You guys are suggesting they create raiding and non-raiding servers. Other folks want PVE only servers, with no PVP. Other groups want FFA PVP with full looting. Other people want RVR combat, and a PVP centric end game. Yet more players want Role playing servers of all these types. It just can't be done folks. So what generally happens is developers pick a couple of variants from the above and try to deliver them. It seems to me whenever they try to cover too many bases the game is doomed for failure. Maybe one day a developer will consider making a no raid/raid server, but I'm betting against it. Say what you will about WOW, but they continue to do a great job trying to broaden the games rewards to accommodate both the PVP and PVE raiding crowd. Seems like they still need to do a bit more work for the casual PVE player.
Spot on Kyleran, if there is something I've seen with AoC, its the attitude of " ME ME ME ME" there's just so many selfish people who want just what they want then the game will be ok.
AoC Endgame is Raids - IS PvP BattleKeeps - IS PvE Cities - IS ongoing quests after level cap.
I have it under good authority too that RP'ers will be fully catered for if not fully from launch atleast and ongoing in the Expansion which IS coming out.
I don't think the issue is really with if the game has raiding or that they feel the need to raid. The issue is that people who raid have better equipment and non raiders feel inferior or like second class hasbeens compaired to raiders. So non raiders would prefer there are no raids or if their are raids that they have no loot that is better then what a non raider can get. So I think just removing all the raid dungeons would be a simple solution that would make non raiders happy. It doesn't require any special code just setup a server and remove the raid dungeons. Seems like a simple enough thing to do. The only issue would be making sure their is enough demand to fill up a server so people can group up.
You're missing the point.
Just talking about the PvE side of things try to put yourself in the non-raiders' shoes for minute. Ok, I know that this is going to be difficult but just try to imagine for a moment that you don't like raiding and don't want to do it. You enjoy playing solo and in small groups. Alright, so you play the game and enjoy it as you level up. Along the way you improve your equipment.
Then you hit max level and you've done all the solo/small group content that will improve your gear. Now what? You look around and there's nothing left for you to do. There are no goals left for you to achieve. No rewards to motivate you. You don't need experience for levels anymore so there isn't much point in killing things for experience. You can't improve your equipment anymore so there isn't any point in running content for equipment.
So what's left?
Nothing.
Game over.
The only goals left to achieve are in the raid content but you don't like raiding and don't want to do it. The type of play you actually enjoyed has come to and end.
Now do you see the problem?
Heh guess I'm the neanderthal here I'm not getting it. Yes the game is over. At some point you always reach this point raiding has nothing to do with it....
But I see the game having some raid stuff for raid people, maybe some pvp stuff for pvp people and some high lvl group dungeons. Players can do one or the other or all of them based on their preference however there always comes a time when you have looted the last loot, kill the nth person, or finished the last boss and the game is over...
Your goals should be based on what you want to do not based on artifical limits like making a server that has no pvp areas, or no high lvl group dungeons, or no high lvl raid dungeons.
Again I really don't get it the only way I see it is if there are disparities in equipment so that you feel cheated cause you did the high lvl group areas and the people doing the high lvl raid or high lvl pvp areas have cooler looking stuff??
Now small-groupers are going to look at this and wonder why, if they put the same amount of time and effort into the same content, should their rewards be any less. If the content is scaled properly it should be just as dangerous for a group of 6 as it is for a group of 24. The only real difference is that the smaller the group is the more individual responsibility each person has. I know very well what the raider response is to this though. They will say that the more people you have the more difficult it is just by virture of the fact that you have more people. And then the non-raiders say, no that just means you have more people to cover for slackers and less reponsibility for each individual so actually it's easier. And 'round and 'round we go.
This part of your arguement is simply wrong.
1. Raiders do invest far more time to gain rewards. You raid a boss and you get 1-3 items maybe split between 24 people. That means for this to be equivelent for a full group you would get 1-3 items total after running the raid 4 times. If this involves a lot of fighting to get to the boss and then you kill the boss and it drops nothing is that going to be satisfactory?! Don't think so...
2. Raids are more difficult or certainly they can be. Assembling, coordinateing a group of 24 people is far different then fighting with a group of 6. I can only point back to events in EQ that let me express this due to the requirement in strategies and team work. Like the PoE raid where you have 12 bosses and 6 are mezable and 6 are not and you need to kill them all in a very short time which would be impossible. The strategy is that you need to have sub teams of people that handle pulling and splitting, mezzing mezzable ones, offtanking 5 of them till you have all 12 all within a small sliver of death and controlling 11 mobs while you work on the 12th mob before running through and killing all the mobs.
That is a challenge that takes a lot of practice and a lot or work till you can get it down. These complex battles involving many elements that need to be coordinated to defeat them is what makes raiding difficult and challenging. To say that group encounters are just as difficult is really kinda nieve.
3. Raids take lots of time to setup. So in addition to the above you need to work to assemble a force of 24 people which takes more time and coordination then just 6.
Personally I love raiding and see it is the highest accomplishment in the games. Unfortunately I've fallen into the more casual play style as I've had more life issues I need to deal with like kids, being on call for work, etc. So ironically I'm in the small group camp as thats all I really get to do.
That said I'd never play on a server that didn't have raids cause I'll always dream of being able to raid again. The fact that raiders have better gear then me also isn't something I worry about. Again I look at it and admire it and acknowledge that they worked hard to accomplish it. It doesn't diminish my game play in anyway except with reguard to pvp which I don't think will be a problem in AoC since I think pvp levels and stats stuff is being split out separately which is perfect. Frankly if it were me I'd remove all levels from consideration in pvp so that their was a nice level playing field where everyone was on even standing and the people with high ratings, cool looking equipment or titles actually earned it based on skill not level differences and equipment differences...
No, its not this simple. Here's the fundamental flaw in your argument. No single game can be designed to accommodate every style of play. A game really has to decide what it wants to focus on at end game, and then stick to those principals for the most part. It cannot be all inclusive, no matter how big or how much money there is to spend developing it. You guys are suggesting they create raiding and non-raiding servers. Other folks want PVE only servers, with no PVP. Other groups want FFA PVP with full looting. Other people want RVR combat, and a PVP centric end game. Yet more players want Role playing servers of all these types. It just can't be done folks. So what generally happens is developers pick a couple of variants from the above and try to deliver them. It seems to me whenever they try to cover too many bases the game is doomed for failure. Maybe one day a developer will consider making a no raid/raid server, but I'm betting against it. Say what you will about WOW, but they continue to do a great job trying to broaden the games rewards to accommodate both the PVP and PVE raiding crowd. Seems like they still need to do a bit more work for the casual PVE player.
Spot on Kyleran, if there is something I've seen with AoC, its the attitude of " ME ME ME ME" there's just so many selfish people who want just what they want then the game will be ok.
AoC Endgame is Raids - IS PvP BattleKeeps - IS PvE Cities - IS ongoing quests after level cap.
I have it under good authority too that RP'ers will be fully catered for if not fully from launch atleast and ongoing in the Expansion which IS coming out.
To Kyleran:
Yes WoW has improved things for PvP players and small group players from what I can tell. But how happy are the raiders now? I hit the WoW forums from time to time and I see raiders screaming about "welfare epics". Again, I don't play WoW so I don't fully understand every little nuance of what's going on there but every time I see them improving things for PvP or small group players I see the raiders posting doom and gloom posts.
Also, you are correct that developers cannot provide every concievalbe type of alternate rules server. So maybe what they should do is put up a poll and then just do the two most asked for types. I'd be willing to bet that if "non-raiding" was one of the options it would win the poll. Of course I can't prove it untill they do the poll and I know they aren't going to do a poll like that.
To Avery:
First understand that I'm not actually asking for this in AoC because, given the attitude of the devs, I know it would never happen. However, just talking about mmorpgs in general, why is it any more selfish of a solo or small group player to ask for a solo or small group end-game than it is for a raider to ask for a raiding end-game.
In fact, I think every non-raider type in the world would tell you that he or she doesn't give a damn if the game has a raiding end-game as long as it also has an alternative small group end-game. It's the raiders who can't compromise and insist that it should be raiding only. And when a game starts providing non-raid end-game progression, as WoW has gradually been doing, the raiders scream bloody murder.
1. Raiders do invest far more time to gain rewards. You raid a boss and you get 1-3 items maybe split between 24 people. That means for this to be equivelent for a full group you would get 1-3 items total after running the raid 4 times. If this involves a lot of fighting to get to the boss and then you kill the boss and it drops nothing is that going to be satisfactory?! Don't think so... 2. Raids are more difficult or certainly they can be. Assembling, coordinateing a group of 24 people is far different then fighting with a group of 6. I can only point back to events in EQ that let me express this due to the requirement in strategies and team work. Like the PoE raid where you have 12 bosses and 6 are mezable and 6 are not and you need to kill them all in a very short time which would be impossible. The strategy is that you need to have sub teams of people that handle pulling and splitting, mezzing mezzable ones, offtanking 5 of them till you have all 12 all within a small sliver of death and controlling 11 mobs while you work on the 12th mob before running through and killing all the mobs. That is a challenge that takes a lot of practice and a lot or work till you can get it down. These complex battles involving many elements that need to be coordinated to defeat them is what makes raiding difficult and challenging. To say that group encounters are just as difficult is really kinda nieve. 3. Raids take lots of time to setup. So in addition to the above you need to work to assemble a force of 24 people which takes more time and coordination then just 6.
Replying to your points:
1. I'll concede that drop rates would have to be adjusted. One possible alternative would be to have the bosses drop pieces of equipment like the hilt of a sword, then the crosspiece, the pommel, and finally the blade, which could then be combined into the completed item.
2. I'll never concede that raids are more difficult simply because there are more people present. But I will concede that certain things designed for large groups would be difficult to scale for small groups. Especially when it comes to multiple mobs in an area.
But this is only a problem because we're talking about a half-assed, band-aid type of solution. Instead of designing content specifically for small groups we're talking about settling for scaled, hand-me down content from devs who are too lazy or too stubborn to build content specifically for solo or small group players.
From past experience I know that there is no point in getting into the argument of difficulty because we will never agree with each other. Maybe you can suck gestalt into that discussion, heh, I know he has some things to say about it but I think that he is even more fed up with the circular arguments than I am.
3. I will concede that raids take more time to set up. That's part of the reason why a lot of people hate them. But that just goes with the territory. If that's what a person enjoys (or claims to enjoy) then they shouldn't have a problem with it.
It doesn't even matter who's right. What matters is that we are all people paying for entertainment and we each want what we want. Why should one segment of the player base be sacrificed to please the other? That's why the seperate servers idea is a fantastically good idea. Each group could have what they want and we could stop butting heads with each other. And it's really so simple. All the devs would have to do is develop content in the normal way and then simply adjust it on the non-raid servers so that it could be used by small groups instead of large groups. Then people could choose which type of server to play on based on the type of end-game they want (large group or small group) and, hopefully, we could all stop yelling at each other.
No, its not this simple. Here's the fundamental flaw in your argument. No single game can be designed to accommodate every style of play. A game really has to decide what it wants to focus on at end game, and then stick to those principals for the most part. It cannot be all inclusive, no matter how big or how much money there is to spend developing it.
You guys are suggesting they create raiding and non-raiding servers. Other folks want PVE only servers, with no PVP. Other groups want FFA PVP with full looting. Other people want RVR combat, and a PVP centric end game. Yet more players want Role playing servers of all these types.
It just can't be done folks. So what generally happens is developers pick a couple of variants from the above and try to deliver them. It seems to me whenever they try to cover too many bases the game is doomed for failure. Maybe one day a developer will consider making a no raid/raid server, but I'm betting against it.
Say what you will about WOW, but they continue to do a great job trying to broaden the games rewards to accommodate both the PVP and PVE raiding crowd. Seems like they still need to do a bit more work for the casual PVE player.
What happen on another server doesn't affect you.
A raid-free server would indeed appeal to a vast amount of players who would not play the game otherwise. If it create an exodus from the raiding servers to the raid-free servers, all the more reasons to create them...as this is what peoples would select, desire and want.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
So the devs should offer servers for Raiders and Non Raiders, where the encounter is scaled down so a group of 6 can defeat it and still get the same gear that a group of 25 would get on a raid server. Well, i want a solo server so i can defeat the encounter all by myself and get the same gear.
You see how this can get insane. No game is going to have servers designated for every play style, that would be a nightmare to keep up with.
And i never understood how anyone could justify getting the same possible drops from an encounter that takes 6 as an encounter that takes 25. And no, i dont raid. I played EQ1 for about 4 years (in a pretty big guild that did weekend raids) and never went on one raid.
What people should be doing is not requesting non raiding servers, but requesting that the Developers do not forget about groupers when end game comes around, and continue developing content for group and even solo players.
I understand that you dont want to have to quit playing a game at max level or become a raider, this can be solved by the development team continuing to add content for that play style. I can not understand it if you want the same gear as a raider can get without putting in the time it takes to raid. I myself cannot see putting aside HOURS to get a huge group of people together, raid a zone to get a couple drops but for those you do enjoy this, they deserve the rewards.
Let us, the soloers and groupers, not covet what the raiders get, but ask for/demand content for us as well.
So the devs should offer servers for Raiders and Non Raiders, where the encounter is scaled down so a group of 6 can defeat it and still get the same gear that a group of 25 would get on a raid server. Well, i want a solo server so i can defeat the encounter all by myself and get the same gear.
As far as I am concerned, you can have a solo-server.
I would still play on the grouping server.
Can't care less what happen on other servers.
You want a casual server? You gain XP at 5000% the rate and 1 automated best loot per day? Fine with me, maybe I will make 1 toon there to mess around and test stuff, but I would stick to the grouping server.
There are already "test-servers" in most games, and you can /level 50, /gimme dragonslayer sword+17, and it all work. Never bothered me. I play where I have fun. So should you.
If everyone move to any server, the devs know what the players want.
Best grouper MUST be groupers on my server. This is not negociable in anyway. If peoples who PvP/Raid/RvR are better at grouping then me, I won't buy that game. Best groupers have to be groupers. No compromises.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
So the devs should offer servers for Raiders and Non Raiders, where the encounter is scaled down so a group of 6 can defeat it and still get the same gear that a group of 25 would get on a raid server. Well, i want a solo server so i can defeat the encounter all by myself and get the same gear.
As far as I am concerned, you can have a solo-server.
I would still play on the grouping server.
Can't care less what happen on other servers.
You want a casual server? You gain XP at 5000% the rate and 1 automated best loot per day? Fine with me, maybe I will make 1 toon there to mess around and test stuff, but I would stick to the grouping server.
There are already "test-servers" in most games, and you can /level 50, /gimme dragonslayer sword+17, and it all work. Never bothered me. I play where I have fun. So should you.
If everyone move to any server, the devs know what the players want.
Best grouper MUST be groupers on my server. This is not negociable in anyway. If peoples who PvP/Raid/RvR are better at grouping then me, I won't buy that game. Best groupers have to be groupers. No compromises.
I dont know if you read my whole post or just what you quoted???? I certainly dont want a solo only server, that would be insane.
Perhaps is someone who is a PVP/Raid/RVR persons is a better grouper then you that means that they are a better grouper then you.
If you are worried about gear that is another thing. Sure the best raid gear will be better then the best grouping gear, which will mean that many die hard raiders will not worry much about the group content because they can get better trophies from raiding. And if some does enter a group encounter and he has the + Everything Ultimate Raid sword of badness then that is fine, but he cant roll on the lesser badass +Everything Ultimate Grouping Sword that drops. Need before greed is always the way to go.
If the game offers every play style on a server throughout all levels, i.e. solo/Group/and raid, and you still wont play because raids are on there then you simply want raid type gear without raiding, and that isnt a play style, it is simply greed.
Are you saying that since Conan has raiding in the end game you wont play even if it also caters to numerous group play dungeons and encounters as well at max level?
I couldn't bring myself to read 4 pages so I hope I don't seem to repetitive. Although non raiding servers may not be a bad idea I think the best solution is to even the chances for both raiders and non raiders to have equal gear. I do see why many would like to see non-raiding servers though because I myself left Wow because I wasn't allowed to participate in many raids due to the fact that I don't do addons (I don't have the time on my hands to mess around with them after every patch.).
One point to underscore is that raids aren't just bigger mobs with lots more hitpoints. If that was all they were then you might just say drop the hp some and presto you got a group encounter. Frankly though if that was the case then it would be a pretty boring raid.
Raids are generally complex encounters that involve multiple mobs with unusual or challenging circumstances that require large groups and sometimes a good deal or coordination. Many of them frankly can't be scaled down to a single group without just becoming trivial or stupid. A lot of raids become tactical and almost like an RTS with players.
Another good example from eq was the maestro encounter where you fought the maestro, and when he was like 50% health two hands appeared on the piano and as the hands played the maestro would regen his health. The faster you killed the hands the sooner he stopped healing. After this at 25% 4 zombie like mobs would spawn. They would almost immediately go for the healers but rather then simply killing them they would charm them. Again spliting the raid into various groups to deal with the changing circumstances and ensuring that everyone is paying attention and on there toes is required to defeat this encounter. Sometimes having lots of people in an encounter doesn't mean you can snooze thorugh since you are one of many sometimes it involves breaking into subteams and coordinateing activity as a team to defeat these complex type encounters. I can't tell you the number of times everyone dies because someone isn't paying attention and either fails to do their job or does something wrong at the wrong time...
Raid content is really exclusive to raids and can't be translated to groups. It would need to be completely reworked. Raids are like a completely unique game that some people love and some people hate.
I used to raid ... used to lead raids in EQ DAoC and WoW ... now my wife and I just cant find time for full scale raiding like we used to ... lets be honest .. to *raid* and i mean really raid .. its a large chunk of time investment. Not just the actualy raid .. the pre-farming for consumables / repair gold all that fun stuff. So I see the argument clearly from both sides as a former *Raider*
Removing raids is not really a good option IMO. Its more coding and more resorce allocation .. why bother. Would much rather they used that resource allocation to improve the lot of the casual gamer rather than screw over the raiders.
I see alot of people getting hung up on the *gear* issue. Well for my money they should put in an alternate way of getting *raid-level gear* outside raids. Now lets be fair .. raids aint a walk in the park (well at least not the first half dozen kills anyway) and they are time comsuming etc. So making a 6-man dungeon or even quest that yeilds the same rewards is IMO a massive no-no. If you do that then why the hell would anyone raid? Just do the quest / farm the dungeon with your buds and done!!
They do however need to allow the casual players a way to work towards that gear level within thier playing time-frame. A very long quest line ... or as another poster mentioned .. breaking gear drops into component parts (hilt blade pommel etc) and having them as drops. These idears work ... but only if the time and effort involved equates to that put into raiding.
For example. It would not be unfair to scale a quest / Drop %'s on the *sword* (I use sword as an example) in that to realistically get it would take 25hours say ... that could be 25 hours running a long quest line ... or 10 times 2.5hr instance runs to gain the parts required. This could also be augmented with lock out timers on instances making gaining said *sword* would actually take the player 25hrs playtime over a 3-4week period.
This gives the casual players a goal they can continually work towards .. while not reducing the vaule of the *raid dropped version* ...
Raiders can still get thier uber sword on a raid without having to commit to a long period of questing etc .. freeing them to raid (or prepare for raids) while non-raiders (with the required effort) can work away on thier own goals.
From a raiders stand point its a Win-Win IMO. That Dagger just wont drop off the raid boss? 16 kills and no drop? Start working on the quest ... i will lay money just after you get the quest line done one will drop
Seriously tho .. as a raider it would allow you to augment your raid set with equal value quest pieces when your having a hard time getting X item to drop. All those guilds who run stand-by lists on raids? Get those people out doing the quests .. that way even standbys are working on raid gear ... how can you not win with a system like that?
Just my opinion. Raids are great .. but there should be an alternate path. Scale the time investment to that of raids. (24 people x 3hrs = 72hrs therefore 6 people should equal = 12hours) Of course you'd have to also account for drop %'s etc .. more math .. but you get my drift .. as long as you scale the time investment needed for X item .. its fair no one can bitch. A raider bitching about this system would be like a Doctor bitching b/c his gardner drives the same car as him ... hey he put in the extra time for the reward (worked more hours) .. so STFU.
I like the idea of scalable dungeons – scalable down to solo.
Problem is, people will always take the easiest option. Why bother forming a 50-man raid when you can get the same reward as a 5-man? The previous poster and others with similar 'long-quest' suggestions are spot-on.
Raiding does seem like a lot of fun. Even keen raiding friends I have say it’s stressful and repetitive “but that’s all I have left to do…”
As a raid group grows in size, so the management and coordination activities increase. I think big raid groups should get better rewards assuming the dungeon scales not only in mob HPs, etc, but also in the level of strategy required to ace it.
I like the idea of a solo server, but I think scalable dungeons or long quests would negate the need for this.
From what I understand and believe, raiders are a minority and should not be fawned over by devs. Once a dev comes along who breaks this mould, I think the pops of games like WoW will plummet.
Raids are only made ludicrously difficult to buy time for the devs to knock-up new content, which imo is lame. I look forward to the day when my 10 quid sub gets me new content on a regular basis as opposed to timesink grinds that I don’t even qualify for.
End-game PvP in WoW is the biggest pile of sh.te ever!
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
One point to underscore is that raids aren't just bigger mobs with lots more hitpoints. If that was all they were then you might just say drop the hp some and presto you got a group encounter. Frankly though if that was the case then it would be a pretty boring raid. Raids are generally complex encounters that involve multiple mobs with unusual or challenging circumstances that require large groups and sometimes a good deal or coordination. Many of them frankly can't be scaled down to a single group without just becoming trivial or stupid. A lot of raids become tactical and almost like an RTS with players. Another good example from eq was the maestro encounter where you fought the maestro, and when he was like 50% health two hands appeared on the piano and as the hands played the maestro would regen his health. The faster you killed the hands the sooner he stopped healing. After this at 25% 4 zombie like mobs would spawn. They would almost immediately go for the healers but rather then simply killing them they would charm them. Again spliting the raid into various groups to deal with the changing circumstances and ensuring that everyone is paying attention and on there toes is required to defeat this encounter. Sometimes having lots of people in an encounter doesn't mean you can snooze thorugh since you are one of many sometimes it involves breaking into subteams and coordinateing activity as a team to defeat these complex type encounters. I can't tell you the number of times everyone dies because someone isn't paying attention and either fails to do their job or does something wrong at the wrong time... Raid content is really exclusive to raids and can't be translated to groups. It would need to be completely reworked. Raids are like a completely unique game that some people love and some people hate.
Oh God, you've done it, you've sucked me into the difficulty discussion. I hope you're proud of yourself.
Ok, first, looking at what you just described; is there any reason why developers couldn't do similar things in instances designed for 5 or 6 people? Extra things spawn at predetermined points and do predetermined things that you have to respond to correctly. Well big deal. They could do exactly the same thing in a 6 person dungeon.
The only real challenge with what you just described is in the the process of learning the script and working out how to respond to the scripted events. And how many raiders actually take part in that process? How many simply follow strategy guides worked out by the first guilds to run the content? And even in the first guilds which go through it how many of the people are actually involved in working out the strategy to beat the script and how many are just mindlessly following orders?
There is nothing difficult or challenging about this. You're confusing difficulty with tedium. The tedium of getting a large group of people together. The tedium of sorting out the groups. The tedium of explaining the strategy and assigning jobs. The tedium of waiting for afk people or late people so you can get moving.
Once you actually start doing the raid where is the difficulty? You are following a pre-planned strategy to beat an unchanging script. And look at the reason you gave why raids fail:
<<<<"I can't tell you the number of times everyone dies because someone isn't paying attention and either fails to do their job or does something wrong at the wrong time...">>>>
Raids fail because somebody failed to follow the pre-planned strategy. That's not difficulty, that's some guy falling asleep because he's bored out of his mind.
And when it comes down to difficulty in following scripts, on the individual level, it could be just as difficult for a guy in a small group as it is for a guy in a large raid. What does the guy in the raid do? He pushes <this> button at <this> time, waits five seconds and pushes <that> button, stands over <there>, moves to <this> spot, etc. If we're all going to be following scripts there can be just as much script following for a guy in a small group as there is for a guy in a large raid.
I'll tell you what they could to in small group instances that they could never do in a raid designed for a large number of people. They could put in a high degree of randomness. Large groups of people simply cannot respond quickly enough to unexpected things. That's why ALL raids are unvarying scripts. A raid script may branch at certain points, leading to <this> or to <that> but that isn't randomness it's just a fork in the road of the script.
In a dungeon designed for a small group they could put in a lot of randomness. They could set it up so that anytime you attack a mob the game does a random check for adds. And if the check is positive then another random check for the type of mob to add. You would never know for sure what to expect with any given fight.
They could have mobs move around the dungeon randomly, singly or in groups or the whole damn population of the dungeon could start running around. A group of 20+people would never be able to deal with that but a group of 5 or 6 people would have a chance to react quickly enough to the unexpected to get out of the way. Duck down that corridor...run into that room and close the door...race ahead of the moving mobs, dodging other mobs, this way and that, untill things settle down. Imagine if something like that happened with a large raid, they would be wiped out every time because of the "herding cats" syndrom.
Argh, enough for now. I said I wasn't going to get into this but you sucked me in anyway.
I just wish, one day a game company will release a game that raiding/PvP is not the end game focus. I would like to see some nice big epic quests which would take an average player a month to complete, which would take you all over the game world requiring both group and solo play, a well written story to accompany the quest and a nice epic reward on completion, something like the EQ's epic quests but on a larger scale. Something like this would kept the casuals, non-raider's and RPer's happy.
I want to be like a knight of the round table, on the quest to find the holy grail. I want to be like Frodo taking the one ring to mount doom. I want to be part of something epic, something stories are written of. This to me is want the end game should be about, not repeating the same old dungeon gearing myself for the next dungeon. Raids just seem to be the easy way out for most devs, instead of developing meaningful content it's easier to make a raid dungeon and less time consuming for the devs. Maybe one day.
Of course there should be raids/PvP, it just seems most devs concentrate too much on these aspects of the game and forget non-raiding PvE or if they do remember it's just chucked in as an after thought.
because most people who play dont give a toss whether raiding is in or not and the rest want raids?
those that pass on a game simply due to raiding are not only stuffed for decent games they are a minority. bite the bullet and play there is no law stating you MUST raid.
The journey is what matter.
The journey is determined by the path of progression for every achiever.
Raiding is enforced on every achiever.
Is that a tiny minority? I don't think so.
no it is not enforced on every Achiever. Blizzard released the statistics for how many characters have actually set foot in a raid instance and it was something like 15%. i call that a minority. granted many games are designed so that people should raid it is never enforced and is usually ignored by most.
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-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
They really believe it would have no effect. They are wrong, but that is what they believe.
They are definitely wrong. There are many people that will absolutely stay away from a game with a raid-centric end-game and many that will gravitate to such content. Without taking a position for either play-style, I believe it is a significant enough issue to warrant separate servers. Again, it is not necessary for a company to decide which is better, just offer both and let the players choose. Given the ridiculous expense of creating a MMOG these days, it seems silly for devs to risk losing many potential customers by coming down on one side of such a controversial topic.
Originally posted by Drevnar
Funcom has separated PvP and PvE content so that you really only have to do what you want and you will not be penalized for doing so. Thus, negating your entire perspective.
I wasn't asking how Funcom has designed their game. This was a generic pondering that would have been more at home in the general forums. The only reason I asked it in the AoC forum is because I was here doing some research on the role of raiding in this upcoming game. I couldn't help but be struck by the passionate posts on both sides of this topic and decided to ponder aloud.
Originally posted by Neanderthal
This is an interesting question and it's something I've wondered about too. I remember this came up on the Vanguard development boards and the raiders who joined the discussion were horrified at the idea. Partly they were afraid that the raiding servers would be so severely underpopulated that they would eventually be closed down and partly they were upset at the idea of being on a server with raiders only because then the uber raid gear would have less relative meaning because everyone on the server would have it (because they are all raiders).
This is funny. You are implying that the appeal of raiding to (some) raiders is not the actual act of raiding but the elitism associated with their willingness to "endure" such activities. I suspect that—for some raiders—this is probably true.
Originally posted by Neanderthal
But splitting servers based on raiding or non-raiding would certainly be informative. I'd love to see which type of server would be most popular and what the population ratio really would be.
That would indeed be an interesting experiment.
Originally posted by Neanderthal I don't really have the energy right now to get into another debate about the place of raiding in AoC but ...
Let's definitely not go there. It's all been said.
Sigh. We all know its about elitism. It is a very poorly kept secret. It only takes a very easy analysis of the purpose of RPGs and their reward mechanisms, the switch over in gameplay, and the well known fact that many people simply do not like to raid for any reason to see this.
Its a simple equation. Raiding is not the same as the core gameplay of most MMORPGs. No successful MMORPG has ever or will ever have raiding as its core gameplay. 5-8 man groups are the core gameplay.
A vast majority of players actually prefer to play the game's core gameplay.
Raiding, as it exists in MMORPGs up to the current day, is completely predicated on elitism. That is not to say that some people do not like it, even if a vast majority do not like it.
The extremely telling part is that the people who actually like the way the game is designed and play the core grouping game are punished not rewarded (relatively). This is so obviously backwards that it is crazy.
There are tons of propped up and frankly ridiculous justifcations that the raid cult desparately believe to make it OK. Namely that they have no effect on the rest of the game (even though they are obssessed with uber loot that clearly affects to rest of the game) and that groupers should simply pretend that raid items do not exist. Or that raiding is more challenging.
This is of course a farce. Of course they affect the game. Of course groupers would mind. These games very foundation is based upon progression anyone claiming otherwise is stating something so preposterous that they should be viewed with instant suspicion.
As for challenge. First off that is just wrong. But second off. It simply doesn't matter. I guarantee you that when i go do a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu tournament it is more challenging than some dumb raid. I think I should get uber items for doing something more challenging.
Obviously people will say that isn't the same thing. Hello!!! Exactly, neither is raiding. Raiders like to pretend that they are doing exactly the same thing, but somehow it is also different and more challenging. Somehow they deserve better even though what they are doing is not what the core of the game is deisigned around. Raids are generally so cumbersome and farcical in game mechanics that even complete adherrents to the raid cult admit that these games have crap for implementation or design when it comes to raids.
The devs have bought into this farce. That it is all just the same thing and none of it really matters. You can just pretend they aren't there afterall. But of course the people who play the core of the game deserve less. There is no man behind the curtain. That top tier of gear progression, um, its not their. Don't worry your pretty little head, you really are not being punished for liking our core gameplay more than this crap these cultists foam at the mouth for and we feel compelled to add in because its somehow "better" even though we would never actually design the real game around it.
Its an irrational house of cards and most devs have bought into it hook line and sinker. There will be no non-raid servers. Because afterall you can just ignore them. I mean no single player game ever works that way or is expected to, players always try to get whatever is in the game. But somehow MMORPGs are different. After all no one really cares what other people have and um they can pretend really well and forcefully make themselves um ignorant and of course raiders will never brag or anything.
And of course they deserve better anyway, because um well they did something that most people find so incredibly un-fun that they would rather have all their pubic hairs pulled out one by one and so they deserve to have the pinnacle of the PvE reward system since um they um participated in an activity that the game is poorly deisnged to do and um most people don't want to do whether its easy or hard.
But hey its um challenging or something. I mean they aren't giving out gear rewards for solving Ferme's Last Theorem. I mean sure that is challenging but its not fun. Not FUN LIKE RAIDING. HOOOOOOOO boy. Everyone loves raiding. Oh hold on ... almost no one likes raiding. Ooops.
Don't fight it. Its irrational. Its sad. Its pointless Just give up. Seriously it couldn't be more obvious. You will never convince the cult. You can't convince crazy people.
Hehe.....sshhhhhh, you're not supposed to say that. That simple truth has become like one of those subjects that is taboo because of political correctness. Of course we all know it but it isn't 'polite' to mention it. Pointing it out is the quickest way to make a discussion degenerate into a flame fest.
But since this is all a waste of time anyway.....
Of course it's all about elitism. And that is why the most vocal proponents of the raiding end-game don't even want raiding to be fun. Assuming there was some way to make it enjoyable for most people the raiders would fight it tooth and nail. Because the un-funness (hey, I'm a wordsmith!) of raiding is part of what keeps people out of it. And it's ALL about keeping people out.
The number of people needed to do the raid: that's to keep people out. Not everybody is in a large guild. A lot of people don't like being in a large guild. Getting everybody together in the same place at the same time is tedious which a lot of people hate. And a lot of people simply don't like playing in large groups (for more than one reason).
The scheduling involved in raiding: that's to keep people out. Of course this is a byproduct of needing to get a lot people together at the same place at the same time. But many (I would even say most) people who play games want to be able to log on or off at their own whim. They don't like having their playing times dictated to them.
The length of time it takes to complete raids: that's to keep people out. The longer it takes to finish the content the fewer players there are who will be able to use it. Obviously because a lot of people simply can't commit themselves to long play sessions.
The need to repeat raids over and over again: that's to keep people out. Ok, in large part it's a time-sink crutch for the developers but it works wonderfully to the advantage of the raiders because it amplifies all the other things that make raids exclusive and the repetative nature of raiding is unbearable for a lot of people.
The boring, scripted, unvarying tedium of raiding: that's to keep people out. This works in conjuction with the repetative nature of raiding. Doing the same exact scripted routine over and over and over again is maddening for a lot of people. The more horrifyingly boring it is the less people there are willing to put up with it. It also happens to make it easy to do for the people who will tolerate it. After you've done the same idiotic routine 10 times the next 30 or 40 times you do it you barely have to think at all.
Of course it's all about elitism. I've said before and I truly believe that not even raiders enjoy raiding. They just like having higher progression available to them that isn't available to the people who either can't or won't raid. It was never about "challenge" or "difficulty" or "fun" because raiding is none of those things. It's about making it as unbearable and inaccessable as possible to keep as many people as possible out of it so that the people who do slog through it can feel superior.
And this is why raiders are absolutely opposed to any alternate form of end-game progression. It's not that it would stop them from raiding if they actually enjoyed it. It's because any sort of enjoyable or accessable end-game would undermine the exclusive nature of the raiding end-game.
And it has nothing what-so-ever to do with challenge. If people were really interested in comparing their "skill" with that of other players they would want everyone on the server to participate in the challenging content to see who would succeed and who wouldn't. Raiding has never been about challenge. It has always been about putting the highest rewards in the least fun and least accessable content and in conjuction with this; ensuring that there are no other alternatives.
Comments
No, its not this simple. Here's the fundamental flaw in your argument. No single game can be designed to accommodate every style of play. A game really has to decide what it wants to focus on at end game, and then stick to those principals for the most part. It cannot be all inclusive, no matter how big or how much money there is to spend developing it.
You guys are suggesting they create raiding and non-raiding servers. Other folks want PVE only servers, with no PVP. Other groups want FFA PVP with full looting. Other people want RVR combat, and a PVP centric end game. Yet more players want Role playing servers of all these types.
It just can't be done folks. So what generally happens is developers pick a couple of variants from the above and try to deliver them. It seems to me whenever they try to cover too many bases the game is doomed for failure. Maybe one day a developer will consider making a no raid/raid server, but I'm betting against it.
Say what you will about WOW, but they continue to do a great job trying to broaden the games rewards to accommodate both the PVP and PVE raiding crowd. Seems like they still need to do a bit more work for the casual PVE player.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
AoC Endgame is Raids - IS PvP BattleKeeps - IS PvE Cities - IS ongoing quests after level cap.
I have it under good authority too that RP'ers will be fully catered for if not fully from launch atleast and ongoing in the Expansion which IS coming out.
Just talking about the PvE side of things try to put yourself in the non-raiders' shoes for minute. Ok, I know that this is going to be difficult but just try to imagine for a moment that you don't like raiding and don't want to do it. You enjoy playing solo and in small groups. Alright, so you play the game and enjoy it as you level up. Along the way you improve your equipment.
Then you hit max level and you've done all the solo/small group content that will improve your gear. Now what? You look around and there's nothing left for you to do. There are no goals left for you to achieve. No rewards to motivate you. You don't need experience for levels anymore so there isn't much point in killing things for experience. You can't improve your equipment anymore so there isn't any point in running content for equipment.
So what's left?
Nothing.
Game over.
The only goals left to achieve are in the raid content but you don't like raiding and don't want to do it. The type of play you actually enjoyed has come to and end.
Now do you see the problem?
Heh guess I'm the neanderthal here I'm not getting it. Yes the game is over. At some point you always reach this point raiding has nothing to do with it....
But I see the game having some raid stuff for raid people, maybe some pvp stuff for pvp people and some high lvl group dungeons. Players can do one or the other or all of them based on their preference however there always comes a time when you have looted the last loot, kill the nth person, or finished the last boss and the game is over...
Your goals should be based on what you want to do not based on artifical limits like making a server that has no pvp areas, or no high lvl group dungeons, or no high lvl raid dungeons.
Again I really don't get it the only way I see it is if there are disparities in equipment so that you feel cheated cause you did the high lvl group areas and the people doing the high lvl raid or high lvl pvp areas have cooler looking stuff??
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Ethion
This part of your arguement is simply wrong.
1. Raiders do invest far more time to gain rewards. You raid a boss and you get 1-3 items maybe split between 24 people. That means for this to be equivelent for a full group you would get 1-3 items total after running the raid 4 times. If this involves a lot of fighting to get to the boss and then you kill the boss and it drops nothing is that going to be satisfactory?! Don't think so...
2. Raids are more difficult or certainly they can be. Assembling, coordinateing a group of 24 people is far different then fighting with a group of 6. I can only point back to events in EQ that let me express this due to the requirement in strategies and team work. Like the PoE raid where you have 12 bosses and 6 are mezable and 6 are not and you need to kill them all in a very short time which would be impossible. The strategy is that you need to have sub teams of people that handle pulling and splitting, mezzing mezzable ones, offtanking 5 of them till you have all 12 all within a small sliver of death and controlling 11 mobs while you work on the 12th mob before running through and killing all the mobs.
That is a challenge that takes a lot of practice and a lot or work till you can get it down. These complex battles involving many elements that need to be coordinated to defeat them is what makes raiding difficult and challenging. To say that group encounters are just as difficult is really kinda nieve.
3. Raids take lots of time to setup. So in addition to the above you need to work to assemble a force of 24 people which takes more time and coordination then just 6.
Personally I love raiding and see it is the highest accomplishment in the games. Unfortunately I've fallen into the more casual play style as I've had more life issues I need to deal with like kids, being on call for work, etc. So ironically I'm in the small group camp as thats all I really get to do.
That said I'd never play on a server that didn't have raids cause I'll always dream of being able to raid again. The fact that raiders have better gear then me also isn't something I worry about. Again I look at it and admire it and acknowledge that they worked hard to accomplish it. It doesn't diminish my game play in anyway except with reguard to pvp which I don't think will be a problem in AoC since I think pvp levels and stats stuff is being split out separately which is perfect. Frankly if it were me I'd remove all levels from consideration in pvp so that their was a nice level playing field where everyone was on even standing and the people with high ratings, cool looking equipment or titles actually earned it based on skill not level differences and equipment differences...
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Ethion
Don't get too much attached to raiding.
IMHO...
Raiding is a temporal gameplay, while something better is invented. Mobs with 1.000.000 HP are, imho, fillers.
AoC Endgame is Raids - IS PvP BattleKeeps - IS PvE Cities - IS ongoing quests after level cap.
I have it under good authority too that RP'ers will be fully catered for if not fully from launch atleast and ongoing in the Expansion which IS coming out.
To Kyleran:
Yes WoW has improved things for PvP players and small group players from what I can tell. But how happy are the raiders now? I hit the WoW forums from time to time and I see raiders screaming about "welfare epics". Again, I don't play WoW so I don't fully understand every little nuance of what's going on there but every time I see them improving things for PvP or small group players I see the raiders posting doom and gloom posts.
Also, you are correct that developers cannot provide every concievalbe type of alternate rules server. So maybe what they should do is put up a poll and then just do the two most asked for types. I'd be willing to bet that if "non-raiding" was one of the options it would win the poll. Of course I can't prove it untill they do the poll and I know they aren't going to do a poll like that.
To Avery:
First understand that I'm not actually asking for this in AoC because, given the attitude of the devs, I know it would never happen. However, just talking about mmorpgs in general, why is it any more selfish of a solo or small group player to ask for a solo or small group end-game than it is for a raider to ask for a raiding end-game.
In fact, I think every non-raider type in the world would tell you that he or she doesn't give a damn if the game has a raiding end-game as long as it also has an alternative small group end-game. It's the raiders who can't compromise and insist that it should be raiding only. And when a game starts providing non-raid end-game progression, as WoW has gradually been doing, the raiders scream bloody murder.
Replying to your points:
1. I'll concede that drop rates would have to be adjusted. One possible alternative would be to have the bosses drop pieces of equipment like the hilt of a sword, then the crosspiece, the pommel, and finally the blade, which could then be combined into the completed item.
2. I'll never concede that raids are more difficult simply because there are more people present. But I will concede that certain things designed for large groups would be difficult to scale for small groups. Especially when it comes to multiple mobs in an area.
But this is only a problem because we're talking about a half-assed, band-aid type of solution. Instead of designing content specifically for small groups we're talking about settling for scaled, hand-me down content from devs who are too lazy or too stubborn to build content specifically for solo or small group players.
From past experience I know that there is no point in getting into the argument of difficulty because we will never agree with each other. Maybe you can suck gestalt into that discussion, heh, I know he has some things to say about it but I think that he is even more fed up with the circular arguments than I am.
3. I will concede that raids take more time to set up. That's part of the reason why a lot of people hate them. But that just goes with the territory. If that's what a person enjoys (or claims to enjoy) then they shouldn't have a problem with it.
No, its not this simple. Here's the fundamental flaw in your argument. No single game can be designed to accommodate every style of play. A game really has to decide what it wants to focus on at end game, and then stick to those principals for the most part. It cannot be all inclusive, no matter how big or how much money there is to spend developing it.
You guys are suggesting they create raiding and non-raiding servers. Other folks want PVE only servers, with no PVP. Other groups want FFA PVP with full looting. Other people want RVR combat, and a PVP centric end game. Yet more players want Role playing servers of all these types.
It just can't be done folks. So what generally happens is developers pick a couple of variants from the above and try to deliver them. It seems to me whenever they try to cover too many bases the game is doomed for failure. Maybe one day a developer will consider making a no raid/raid server, but I'm betting against it.
Say what you will about WOW, but they continue to do a great job trying to broaden the games rewards to accommodate both the PVP and PVE raiding crowd. Seems like they still need to do a bit more work for the casual PVE player.
What happen on another server doesn't affect you.
A raid-free server would indeed appeal to a vast amount of players who would not play the game otherwise. If it create an exodus from the raiding servers to the raid-free servers, all the more reasons to create them...as this is what peoples would select, desire and want.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
So the devs should offer servers for Raiders and Non Raiders, where the encounter is scaled down so a group of 6 can defeat it and still get the same gear that a group of 25 would get on a raid server. Well, i want a solo server so i can defeat the encounter all by myself and get the same gear.
You see how this can get insane. No game is going to have servers designated for every play style, that would be a nightmare to keep up with.
And i never understood how anyone could justify getting the same possible drops from an encounter that takes 6 as an encounter that takes 25. And no, i dont raid. I played EQ1 for about 4 years (in a pretty big guild that did weekend raids) and never went on one raid.
What people should be doing is not requesting non raiding servers, but requesting that the Developers do not forget about groupers when end game comes around, and continue developing content for group and even solo players.
I understand that you dont want to have to quit playing a game at max level or become a raider, this can be solved by the development team continuing to add content for that play style. I can not understand it if you want the same gear as a raider can get without putting in the time it takes to raid. I myself cannot see putting aside HOURS to get a huge group of people together, raid a zone to get a couple drops but for those you do enjoy this, they deserve the rewards.
Let us, the soloers and groupers, not covet what the raiders get, but ask for/demand content for us as well.
As far as I am concerned, you can have a solo-server.
I would still play on the grouping server.
Can't care less what happen on other servers.
You want a casual server? You gain XP at 5000% the rate and 1 automated best loot per day? Fine with me, maybe I will make 1 toon there to mess around and test stuff, but I would stick to the grouping server.
There are already "test-servers" in most games, and you can /level 50, /gimme dragonslayer sword+17, and it all work. Never bothered me. I play where I have fun. So should you.
If everyone move to any server, the devs know what the players want.
Best grouper MUST be groupers on my server. This is not negociable in anyway. If peoples who PvP/Raid/RvR are better at grouping then me, I won't buy that game. Best groupers have to be groupers. No compromises.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
As far as I am concerned, you can have a solo-server.
I would still play on the grouping server.
Can't care less what happen on other servers.
You want a casual server? You gain XP at 5000% the rate and 1 automated best loot per day? Fine with me, maybe I will make 1 toon there to mess around and test stuff, but I would stick to the grouping server.
There are already "test-servers" in most games, and you can /level 50, /gimme dragonslayer sword+17, and it all work. Never bothered me. I play where I have fun. So should you.
If everyone move to any server, the devs know what the players want.
Best grouper MUST be groupers on my server. This is not negociable in anyway. If peoples who PvP/Raid/RvR are better at grouping then me, I won't buy that game. Best groupers have to be groupers. No compromises.
I dont know if you read my whole post or just what you quoted???? I certainly dont want a solo only server, that would be insane.Perhaps is someone who is a PVP/Raid/RVR persons is a better grouper then you that means that they are a better grouper then you.
If you are worried about gear that is another thing. Sure the best raid gear will be better then the best grouping gear, which will mean that many die hard raiders will not worry much about the group content because they can get better trophies from raiding. And if some does enter a group encounter and he has the + Everything Ultimate Raid sword of badness then that is fine, but he cant roll on the lesser badass +Everything Ultimate Grouping Sword that drops. Need before greed is always the way to go.
If the game offers every play style on a server throughout all levels, i.e. solo/Group/and raid, and you still wont play because raids are on there then you simply want raid type gear without raiding, and that isnt a play style, it is simply greed.
Are you saying that since Conan has raiding in the end game you wont play even if it also caters to numerous group play dungeons and encounters as well at max level?
I couldn't bring myself to read 4 pages so I hope I don't seem to repetitive. Although non raiding servers may not be a bad idea I think the best solution is to even the chances for both raiders and non raiders to have equal gear. I do see why many would like to see non-raiding servers though because I myself left Wow because I wasn't allowed to participate in many raids due to the fact that I don't do addons (I don't have the time on my hands to mess around with them after every patch.).
One point to underscore is that raids aren't just bigger mobs with lots more hitpoints. If that was all they were then you might just say drop the hp some and presto you got a group encounter. Frankly though if that was the case then it would be a pretty boring raid.
Raids are generally complex encounters that involve multiple mobs with unusual or challenging circumstances that require large groups and sometimes a good deal or coordination. Many of them frankly can't be scaled down to a single group without just becoming trivial or stupid. A lot of raids become tactical and almost like an RTS with players.
Another good example from eq was the maestro encounter where you fought the maestro, and when he was like 50% health two hands appeared on the piano and as the hands played the maestro would regen his health. The faster you killed the hands the sooner he stopped healing. After this at 25% 4 zombie like mobs would spawn. They would almost immediately go for the healers but rather then simply killing them they would charm them. Again spliting the raid into various groups to deal with the changing circumstances and ensuring that everyone is paying attention and on there toes is required to defeat this encounter. Sometimes having lots of people in an encounter doesn't mean you can snooze thorugh since you are one of many sometimes it involves breaking into subteams and coordinateing activity as a team to defeat these complex type encounters. I can't tell you the number of times everyone dies because someone isn't paying attention and either fails to do their job or does something wrong at the wrong time...
Raid content is really exclusive to raids and can't be translated to groups. It would need to be completely reworked. Raids are like a completely unique game that some people love and some people hate.
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Ethion
I used to raid ... used to lead raids in EQ DAoC and WoW ... now my wife and I just cant find time for full scale raiding like we used to ... lets be honest .. to *raid* and i mean really raid .. its a large chunk of time investment. Not just the actualy raid .. the pre-farming for consumables / repair gold all that fun stuff. So I see the argument clearly from both sides as a former *Raider*
Removing raids is not really a good option IMO. Its more coding and more resorce allocation .. why bother. Would much rather they used that resource allocation to improve the lot of the casual gamer rather than screw over the raiders.
I see alot of people getting hung up on the *gear* issue. Well for my money they should put in an alternate way of getting *raid-level gear* outside raids. Now lets be fair .. raids aint a walk in the park (well at least not the first half dozen kills anyway) and they are time comsuming etc. So making a 6-man dungeon or even quest that yeilds the same rewards is IMO a massive no-no. If you do that then why the hell would anyone raid? Just do the quest / farm the dungeon with your buds and done!!
They do however need to allow the casual players a way to work towards that gear level within thier playing time-frame. A very long quest line ... or as another poster mentioned .. breaking gear drops into component parts (hilt blade pommel etc) and having them as drops. These idears work ... but only if the time and effort involved equates to that put into raiding.
For example. It would not be unfair to scale a quest / Drop %'s on the *sword* (I use sword as an example) in that to realistically get it would take 25hours say ... that could be 25 hours running a long quest line ... or 10 times 2.5hr instance runs to gain the parts required. This could also be augmented with lock out timers on instances making gaining said *sword* would actually take the player 25hrs playtime over a 3-4week period.
This gives the casual players a goal they can continually work towards .. while not reducing the vaule of the *raid dropped version* ...
Raiders can still get thier uber sword on a raid without having to commit to a long period of questing etc .. freeing them to raid (or prepare for raids) while non-raiders (with the required effort) can work away on thier own goals.
From a raiders stand point its a Win-Win IMO. That Dagger just wont drop off the raid boss? 16 kills and no drop? Start working on the quest ... i will lay money just after you get the quest line done one will drop
Seriously tho .. as a raider it would allow you to augment your raid set with equal value quest pieces when your having a hard time getting X item to drop. All those guilds who run stand-by lists on raids? Get those people out doing the quests .. that way even standbys are working on raid gear ... how can you not win with a system like that?
Just my opinion. Raids are great .. but there should be an alternate path. Scale the time investment to that of raids. (24 people x 3hrs = 72hrs therefore 6 people should equal = 12hours) Of course you'd have to also account for drop %'s etc .. more math .. but you get my drift .. as long as you scale the time investment needed for X item .. its fair no one can bitch. A raider bitching about this system would be like a Doctor bitching b/c his gardner drives the same car as him ... hey he put in the extra time for the reward (worked more hours) .. so STFU.
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
Oh God, you've done it, you've sucked me into the difficulty discussion. I hope you're proud of yourself.
Ok, first, looking at what you just described; is there any reason why developers couldn't do similar things in instances designed for 5 or 6 people? Extra things spawn at predetermined points and do predetermined things that you have to respond to correctly. Well big deal. They could do exactly the same thing in a 6 person dungeon.
The only real challenge with what you just described is in the the process of learning the script and working out how to respond to the scripted events. And how many raiders actually take part in that process? How many simply follow strategy guides worked out by the first guilds to run the content? And even in the first guilds which go through it how many of the people are actually involved in working out the strategy to beat the script and how many are just mindlessly following orders?
There is nothing difficult or challenging about this. You're confusing difficulty with tedium. The tedium of getting a large group of people together. The tedium of sorting out the groups. The tedium of explaining the strategy and assigning jobs. The tedium of waiting for afk people or late people so you can get moving.
Once you actually start doing the raid where is the difficulty? You are following a pre-planned strategy to beat an unchanging script. And look at the reason you gave why raids fail:
<<<<"I can't tell you the number of times everyone dies because someone isn't paying attention and either fails to do their job or does something wrong at the wrong time...">>>>
Raids fail because somebody failed to follow the pre-planned strategy. That's not difficulty, that's some guy falling asleep because he's bored out of his mind.
And when it comes down to difficulty in following scripts, on the individual level, it could be just as difficult for a guy in a small group as it is for a guy in a large raid. What does the guy in the raid do? He pushes <this> button at <this> time, waits five seconds and pushes <that> button, stands over <there>, moves to <this> spot, etc. If we're all going to be following scripts there can be just as much script following for a guy in a small group as there is for a guy in a large raid.
I'll tell you what they could to in small group instances that they could never do in a raid designed for a large number of people. They could put in a high degree of randomness. Large groups of people simply cannot respond quickly enough to unexpected things. That's why ALL raids are unvarying scripts. A raid script may branch at certain points, leading to <this> or to <that> but that isn't randomness it's just a fork in the road of the script.
In a dungeon designed for a small group they could put in a lot of randomness. They could set it up so that anytime you attack a mob the game does a random check for adds. And if the check is positive then another random check for the type of mob to add. You would never know for sure what to expect with any given fight.
They could have mobs move around the dungeon randomly, singly or in groups or the whole damn population of the dungeon could start running around. A group of 20+people would never be able to deal with that but a group of 5 or 6 people would have a chance to react quickly enough to the unexpected to get out of the way. Duck down that corridor...run into that room and close the door...race ahead of the moving mobs, dodging other mobs, this way and that, untill things settle down. Imagine if something like that happened with a large raid, they would be wiped out every time because of the "herding cats" syndrom.
Argh, enough for now. I said I wasn't going to get into this but you sucked me in anyway.
I just wish, one day a game company will release a game that raiding/PvP is not the end game focus. I would like to see some nice big epic quests which would take an average player a month to complete, which would take you all over the game world requiring both group and solo play, a well written story to accompany the quest and a nice epic reward on completion, something like the EQ's epic quests but on a larger scale. Something like this would kept the casuals, non-raider's and RPer's happy.
I want to be like a knight of the round table, on the quest to find the holy grail. I want to be like Frodo taking the one ring to mount doom. I want to be part of something epic, something stories are written of. This to me is want the end game should be about, not repeating the same old dungeon gearing myself for the next dungeon. Raids just seem to be the easy way out for most devs, instead of developing meaningful content it's easier to make a raid dungeon and less time consuming for the devs. Maybe one day.
Of course there should be raids/PvP, it just seems most devs concentrate too much on these aspects of the game and forget non-raiding PvE or if they do remember it's just chucked in as an after thought.
The journey is what matter.
The journey is determined by the path of progression for every achiever.
Raiding is enforced on every achiever.
Is that a tiny minority? I don't think so.
no it is not enforced on every Achiever. Blizzard released the statistics for how many characters have actually set foot in a raid instance and it was something like 15%. i call that a minority. granted many games are designed so that people should raid it is never enforced and is usually ignored by most.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
They are definitely wrong. There are many people that will absolutely stay away from a game with a raid-centric end-game and many that will gravitate to such content. Without taking a position for either play-style, I believe it is a significant enough issue to warrant separate servers. Again, it is not necessary for a company to decide which is better, just offer both and let the players choose. Given the ridiculous expense of creating a MMOG these days, it seems silly for devs to risk losing many potential customers by coming down on one side of such a controversial topic.
I wasn't asking how Funcom has designed their game. This was a generic pondering that would have been more at home in the general forums. The only reason I asked it in the AoC forum is because I was here doing some research on the role of raiding in this upcoming game. I couldn't help but be struck by the passionate posts on both sides of this topic and decided to ponder aloud.
This is funny. You are implying that the appeal of raiding to (some) raiders is not the actual act of raiding but the elitism associated with their willingness to "endure" such activities. I suspect that—for some raiders—this is probably true.
That would indeed be an interesting experiment.
Let's definitely not go there. It's all been said.
Sigh. We all know its about elitism. It is a very poorly kept secret. It only takes a very easy analysis of the purpose of RPGs and their reward mechanisms, the switch over in gameplay, and the well known fact that many people simply do not like to raid for any reason to see this.
Its a simple equation. Raiding is not the same as the core gameplay of most MMORPGs. No successful MMORPG has ever or will ever have raiding as its core gameplay. 5-8 man groups are the core gameplay.
A vast majority of players actually prefer to play the game's core gameplay.
Raiding, as it exists in MMORPGs up to the current day, is completely predicated on elitism. That is not to say that some people do not like it, even if a vast majority do not like it.
The extremely telling part is that the people who actually like the way the game is designed and play the core grouping game are punished not rewarded (relatively). This is so obviously backwards that it is crazy.
There are tons of propped up and frankly ridiculous justifcations that the raid cult desparately believe to make it OK. Namely that they have no effect on the rest of the game (even though they are obssessed with uber loot that clearly affects to rest of the game) and that groupers should simply pretend that raid items do not exist. Or that raiding is more challenging.
This is of course a farce. Of course they affect the game. Of course groupers would mind. These games very foundation is based upon progression anyone claiming otherwise is stating something so preposterous that they should be viewed with instant suspicion.
As for challenge. First off that is just wrong. But second off. It simply doesn't matter. I guarantee you that when i go do a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu tournament it is more challenging than some dumb raid. I think I should get uber items for doing something more challenging.
Obviously people will say that isn't the same thing. Hello!!! Exactly, neither is raiding. Raiders like to pretend that they are doing exactly the same thing, but somehow it is also different and more challenging. Somehow they deserve better even though what they are doing is not what the core of the game is deisigned around. Raids are generally so cumbersome and farcical in game mechanics that even complete adherrents to the raid cult admit that these games have crap for implementation or design when it comes to raids.
The devs have bought into this farce. That it is all just the same thing and none of it really matters. You can just pretend they aren't there afterall. But of course the people who play the core of the game deserve less. There is no man behind the curtain. That top tier of gear progression, um, its not their. Don't worry your pretty little head, you really are not being punished for liking our core gameplay more than this crap these cultists foam at the mouth for and we feel compelled to add in because its somehow "better" even though we would never actually design the real game around it.
Its an irrational house of cards and most devs have bought into it hook line and sinker. There will be no non-raid servers. Because afterall you can just ignore them. I mean no single player game ever works that way or is expected to, players always try to get whatever is in the game. But somehow MMORPGs are different. After all no one really cares what other people have and um they can pretend really well and forcefully make themselves um ignorant and of course raiders will never brag or anything.
And of course they deserve better anyway, because um well they did something that most people find so incredibly un-fun that they would rather have all their pubic hairs pulled out one by one and so they deserve to have the pinnacle of the PvE reward system since um they um participated in an activity that the game is poorly deisnged to do and um most people don't want to do whether its easy or hard.
But hey its um challenging or something. I mean they aren't giving out gear rewards for solving Ferme's Last Theorem. I mean sure that is challenging but its not fun. Not FUN LIKE RAIDING. HOOOOOOOO boy. Everyone loves raiding. Oh hold on ... almost no one likes raiding. Ooops.
Don't fight it. Its irrational. Its sad. Its pointless Just give up. Seriously it couldn't be more obvious. You will never convince the cult. You can't convince crazy people.
But since this is all a waste of time anyway.....
Of course it's all about elitism. And that is why the most vocal proponents of the raiding end-game don't even want raiding to be fun. Assuming there was some way to make it enjoyable for most people the raiders would fight it tooth and nail. Because the un-funness (hey, I'm a wordsmith!) of raiding is part of what keeps people out of it. And it's ALL about keeping people out.
The number of people needed to do the raid: that's to keep people out. Not everybody is in a large guild. A lot of people don't like being in a large guild. Getting everybody together in the same place at the same time is tedious which a lot of people hate. And a lot of people simply don't like playing in large groups (for more than one reason).
The scheduling involved in raiding: that's to keep people out. Of course this is a byproduct of needing to get a lot people together at the same place at the same time. But many (I would even say most) people who play games want to be able to log on or off at their own whim. They don't like having their playing times dictated to them.
The length of time it takes to complete raids: that's to keep people out. The longer it takes to finish the content the fewer players there are who will be able to use it. Obviously because a lot of people simply can't commit themselves to long play sessions.
The need to repeat raids over and over again: that's to keep people out. Ok, in large part it's a time-sink crutch for the developers but it works wonderfully to the advantage of the raiders because it amplifies all the other things that make raids exclusive and the repetative nature of raiding is unbearable for a lot of people.
The boring, scripted, unvarying tedium of raiding: that's to keep people out. This works in conjuction with the repetative nature of raiding. Doing the same exact scripted routine over and over and over again is maddening for a lot of people. The more horrifyingly boring it is the less people there are willing to put up with it. It also happens to make it easy to do for the people who will tolerate it. After you've done the same idiotic routine 10 times the next 30 or 40 times you do it you barely have to think at all.
Of course it's all about elitism. I've said before and I truly believe that not even raiders enjoy raiding. They just like having higher progression available to them that isn't available to the people who either can't or won't raid. It was never about "challenge" or "difficulty" or "fun" because raiding is none of those things. It's about making it as unbearable and inaccessable as possible to keep as many people as possible out of it so that the people who do slog through it can feel superior.
And this is why raiders are absolutely opposed to any alternate form of end-game progression. It's not that it would stop them from raiding if they actually enjoyed it. It's because any sort of enjoyable or accessable end-game would undermine the exclusive nature of the raiding end-game.
And it has nothing what-so-ever to do with challenge. If people were really interested in comparing their "skill" with that of other players they would want everyone on the server to participate in the challenging content to see who would succeed and who wouldn't. Raiding has never been about challenge. It has always been about putting the highest rewards in the least fun and least accessable content and in conjuction with this; ensuring that there are no other alternatives.