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raiding?
Hello,
Just bumbing around the game list and thought I would just drop a question here: Is there any end game raiding? And what kind? I played WoW all the way to killing Illidan, and that kind of raiding was kind of boring. I enjoyed the old school EQ days of dragon raiding and such.
Second: I like the idea of grinding XP instead of questing. That being said how hard is it to find a party?
*Cheers*
Gil
Comments
There is raiding all the way up, not just "end game". Also the "extreme" end game raiding would not be something you would do every day as they are very epic raids with very large Raid Bosses. Some of them can take hours I am told.
This is a grind game and the quests don't really give decent rewards. And since you can't level on quests people just grind.
Also know this is a pvp game and that is a major "end game" (though you can do it at any time) past time.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
raiding is from 20 to 40 pretty much where random people form group's off 9 player's or 2 party's (2 party's happen rarer) to kill a raidboss to lvl fast, it is however pretty exespensive to raid at thoes lvl's but very quick exp.
then they's rift raidbosses from 31 to 76 where you pretty much need 9 people (9 is also max for em) to take em down, but it rift bosses dosen't happen often cause with 9 people your group is to big to exp in rift, it mostly only happens in hero rift witch is 76 +.
after that you probly have to get in you 60+ and find a clan with a alliance who raid's random raid bosses.
then for the really big one's it's pretty much 76+ to join in and pvp happen's a lot over theese bosses but it depends on server
What is the player base like? I know this is an annoying question, but if I am to start something I want to know others are doing it as well.
PvP is fine with me
I actualy enjoy PvP a lot!
Thanks for the help guys!
*cheers*
Gil
Player's base in L2 is a bit weird, you find those who are extremely competitive and use to be at the top of everything, and then you have those a bit more relaxed who just spend time having fun, I played in bartz, never had any issue with communication and people always replied to my newbie doubts, and from time to time some gave me free buffs to advance faster.
Nowadays I'm aware there are certain servers where you won't find many people on the lower levels, thus why, if you're starting, bartz or teon are the best bets, those are always filled with people.
Overaly though, a mature community, I didn't have problems with kids bothering me, well, at first I did, but back then a lot of people were just testing the game for their first time :P
I am currently just trying to find something to keep me busy till WAR and so far nothing has really "hooked" me. I play Eve and that is fun, but I miss my hack and slash lol.
Maybe I will give this a try this weekend.
*cheers*
Gil
If you had played wow then you must know the term "tank n spank" is.
Not to bash the game again (like i have done many times) but from my RL friends on devianne i have seen the raids of L2 many times (and i am talking about high end raids).
Raids are not complicated and fall into the tank and spank logic ,you have the tanks the healers the buffers and the nukers distributed in many 9-man parties for maximum buff efficiency on each type.
Then you have the bossfight ,the boss sees you,you see the boss and then the combat begins,sometimes the boss does some special moves that may disorient you or fear you but not complicated stuff and some times may the nukers change target to assist on killing something else ,thats it,not extra complicated stuff like wow pve and raids.
Hell even karazhan is far more difficult than l2 raids.I dont think there is something in L2 more difficult than ,let's say, shade of Aran.
Flame on.
Bottom line ... if you were bored with wow ,you will fall into hybernation with l2 pve.
Soon comes the day all shall be free.
Even you, and even me.
Soon comes the day all shall die.
Surely you, but never I!
I appriciate the honest feed back.
Gil
Your opinions is based on the basis of what ? Experience ? Participation, or are you just another avid L2 FRAPS fan ?If you want to make a point of criticism then contrast and compare. You haven't even given anyone anything effective to flame you on, you post reads as pure conjecture.
If nothing else, please accept that the dynamics, risk vs reward and focus of the two games are entirely different, infact almost diametricaly opposed in ideology.... There is far more to a non instanced L2 raid than you can possibly imagine, other than just its execution, which in itself carries some chellenges albeit these may be dealt with at a separate juncture of the raid since as I said these are two completely different games...
Without understanding what it is that you're trying to compare I can't even begin to formulate a coherent response.
Post some tangible facts if you want a response, otherwise save yourself the time as the forums are full enough of L2 experts who never made it past 2nd class change or as in your case even played the game.
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
The Reckless Knight
Lunatris
Lunatris
ok not sure if i understood anything off that but i think madrandomize was just pointing out that raiding in l2 is not like wow so a new player woulden't join up in l2 and execept skill based or a lot off rading...
my own expersince's with raid's in l2 is pretty much tank and spank on every raidboss, but i haven't been at the epic raidbosses ever
Antharas: Ping pong with a middle line of damage, back then we used nukers for the middle line and archers to draw agro on him, we stopped hitting whenever the lizzard agroed one of us, you require someone with macro on the boss to know who's targeting, tho. 36 people are fine if you know how to do it. Melee are useless on this raid cause of the mass stun, which is only launched when many people are together.
Baium: Get a fast runner agroing the angels (TK, SWS or PW) and hit baium with the rest, 18 people are more than enough for him if properly geared.
Zaken: This one is complex cause of the teleport stuff, just put 1 lowbie char in every 2 rooms and get him with a party of level 60s. Destros were the shit for zaken back then.
AQ: Probably you can easy kill it with 2 lowbie parties, get 3 deleveled destros to have frenzy lvl 2 and the others focusing on killing/interrupting nurses, spellsingers work really well with these thanks to skills like aura flare.
Those are all the epics i've killed, and it was between c5 and interlude, maybe they upgraded AI now so who knows if its the same.
its true that i am not a L2 player,its also true that i have not a personal practical experience with L2 (i have not participated in epic raid bosses) but i was standing next to the guy playing them and he explained to me the fight the whole time and yes i have been in valakas and antharas epic raids so far,i have also seen the bot parties killing ant queen many times in the past and i have participated in every little raid boss till lvl 52.
I never talked about risk vs reward so your point is irrelevant,From what i witnessed the pve mechanics of bosses were laughable and i am not talking about the seer dmg they did i am talking about the pve mechanics and only.
I am comparing the 2 games in the pve raid boss aspect ,if you have never played wow then you cant understand the complexity of the raids in it,yes wow is crap on the risk aspect but now we are talking about pve stuff and wow here is the king.
My friend had also 2 boxing the game at the valakas fight ,he was playing a buffer and a healer and he was switching back when he wanted to rebuff,that only tells you that the fight can be done with a number of slackers in the raid party,allow me to explain :the guy had the buffer sitting to restore mana all the time and he was not alone ,there were also another 6 boxed buffers near him ,try to slack in an ssc raid in wow,try to slack in karazhan,try to slack at black temple for 1 sec,then compare the consequences.
I never claimed to be the L2 expert,but i seriously know very well the easy fights of l2 compared to wow.
The only thing that makes them hard is the pre-raid clan vs clan warfare to determine who gets in and the risk of dieing and losing exp,NOTHING else<- both these 2 are not related to pve raids of l2.
Just tank and spank valakas and pinpoint him between the groups of archers,they even didnt kill the paintings.Those are not serious pve mechanics.
Soon comes the day all shall be free.
Even you, and even me.
Soon comes the day all shall die.
Surely you, but never I!
Again I ask you not to offer your opinion about what you think of L2 raids, for I allready know it from the previous post.
I have enough experience from 5 yrs of EQ1 with complex raids and enough general knowledge of WoW to understand that Blizzard has not re-invented the wheel in this regard, so don't bother lecturing me on that point.
Please explain why you think WoW raids are more complicated. Thats all. I can accept that L2 raids may be simpler but at least illustrate where. This way you have a basis for an argument.
Whether you think pre-raid PvP is not a part of the L2 raid dynamic is largely a statement of ignorance on your part as the two are infact very much associated and the open nature of PvP in L2 and the non-instanced raid spectrum play a significant part in how one prepares for a raid and what precautions need to be taken.
You also seem to discout the dynamic of L2 which relies on shorter and hence more repetitive fights, this is somewhat reflected in the raid boss fights as well, however, without factual information on your point of contrast with respect to the difference in WoW, I have no point of reference to respond to. What are you trying to say that the bosses have less debuffs, types of attack or don't spawn minions often enough ? Or is it more about the raid requirements class interaction, types of buffers, healers, positions? Or are you talking about the need for resists and specialised weapons? All of the above exist in L2, albeit they are layered accross the levels, so yes at lv 20 the raids are very simple and pretty much as you describe them, however the point here is to teach ppl how to work together. There is no presumption on the part of the devs that players will have previous MMO experience and instantly know what a raid is or how to conduct one....
Notwithstanding all that, a significant portion of the players who compete for high end raid content in L2 are cheaters and botters and will have a completely different approach to killing the raid boss. I'm not saying that your friend plays as such, but on the basis of the information provided I won't discount it either.
If I read your post correctly, you seem to assume that ppl are going to accept your opinion on the basis of second hand information at best and your assertion that "you saw your friend and/or some botters do a raid "... How is this a credible source on a board for players wanting to learn about L2?
If you want to make a case for the difference between the two games then do so, otherwise what is your point ? If you don't play L2, have no intention of playing then why come to L2 boards and say that the raids are simplistic, without any forethought what it takes to actually raid in the game... (without cheating !! )
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
The Reckless Knight
Lunatris
Thanks for your post Ephi,
There have infact been changes to both the AI and the strats required on the basis of the ongoing "tweaks" to all classes in Intrlude and then subsequently in K1T. The changes to VR and the Destroyers Frenzy skill in particular, have infact had a significant impact on raiding but again we'd get bogged down in the weeds if we went through how every change impacts the raids.
Whilst the descriptions you post are fairly simple indeed and to the uninitiated may seem simple, but suffice to say that there is a great deal of organising and learining by the players that goes into making a raid run as smoothly as you outline.
Good post nevertheless, and remember that all strats will differ on the basis of the clans line up. So what works for one clan will not work for another. The trick is to make the raid work for your line up and adjust the strategy in accordance with your strengths and weaknesses.
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
The Reckless Knight
Lunatris
Please explain why you think WoW raids are more complicated. Thats all. I can accept that L2 raids may be simpler but at least illustrate where. This way you have a basis for an argument.
about 5? epic bosses in l2 that takes a lot off time for anyone to reach and anything before that is just tank and spank, at least in wow the bosses on heroic requries you to pay more attention then any boss i met l2.
since you have knowglede off wow you should know that wow's raiding complexity wins if not your knowglede is serioyls lacking...
My reading/writing comprehension of the english language is not so good and in many times i try to find words in dictionaries to understand their meaning so excuse me if i make mistakes.
I may seem aggressive towards the game and many times i really am , this is because i never succeded in this game and finally got pissed off and left it,i am angry bacause this game had potential (for my playstyle) to be something more than it is now (in terms of grinding pve pvp balance and bots situations and economy) which i believe is horrid.
In that aspect i suggest all the readers that read my posts to take them with a grain of salt.
That being said i truely believe that the aspect of pve in this game is way lower than other games out there.
I will try to answer your statements 1 by one but i cant quote them cause i suck at making posts.
"I have enough experience from 5 yrs of EQ1 with complex raids and enough general knowledge of WoW to understand that Blizzard has not re-invented the wheel in this regard, so don't bother lecturing me on that point."
i never tried to lecture someone here,an opinion is an opinion,not something to force someone in believing it.Wow did not reinvent the wheel is true but it has upgraded the wheel with pirelli tires instead of wood.You also state that you have a general understanding of wow pve mechanics (the same general understanding as i have with l2's pve mechanics).
"Whether you think pre-raid PvP is not a part of the L2 raid dynamic is largely a statement of ignorance on your part as the two are infact very much associated and the open nature of PvP in L2 and the non-instanced raid spectrum play a significant part in how one prepares for a raid and what precautions need to be taken."
By your words the same pre raid dynamic can be said for wow ,you need to craft potions buy reagents ,farm instances for equip ,attune players to raids,read tactics on sites,download the latest addons,organize your channels,buy the best enchants,retalent to pve specs that suit better this boss or the general raid instance.And yes these thins although not pvp oriented,play a significant role on wow's pve preparation and organisation.
"You also seem to discout the dynamic of L2 which relies on shorter and hence more repetitive fights, this is somewhat reflected in the raid boss fights as well, however, without factual information on your point of contrast with respect to the difference in WoW, I have no point of reference to respond to. What are you trying to say that the bosses have less debuffs, types of attack or don't spawn minions often enough ? Or is it more about the raid requirements class interaction, types of buffers, healers, positions? Or are you talking about the need for resists and specialised weapons? All of the above exist in L2, albeit they are layered accross the levels, so yes at lv 20 the raids are very simple and pretty much as you describe them, however the point here is to teach ppl how to work together. There is no presumption on the part of the devs that players will have previous MMO experience and instantly know what a raid is or how to conduct one...."
I am trying to state that apart the organisation between players (that exists in every mmo) the raid bosses of L2 fall into the category of tank and spank with a bit of spice here and there.Allow me to explain,You will never witness a boss to be able to perform a spell and have a player specifically in his position to try and interrupt it,in wow this happens many times and its a part of many pve raid bosses,whether is intercept bu a warrior,kick by a rogue,silence by a priest, spell lock by a lock,counterspell by a mage,shield bash by a warrior again and many others.This happens never in L2.Lets proceed about tanking now,tanks in l2 in PVE always are "hate" spammers while not actively planning their course of action before,just press hate and pray that you will not lose the boss.In wow this doesnt happen cause there is this (more sofisticated than l2 imo) aggro list and aggro management .In l2 the boss doesnt have the ability to do something different to the second or third or last to the aggro list ,it just does something massive to all or a speciall move to the one targeted.
Another tactic that bosses fights do in wow is dynamically change the position of the raid,if you have witnessed any raid in wow you must be blind not to see this,yes there are static fights but are a minority.In l2 in antharas fight i remember people throwing 1 adena to form the places for the parties to stay in this location and while you can tell me that this is a minority,the same happens also in valakas and ant queen.
Also both games teach you how to cooperate with others to achieve something working as a team so your statement there is irrelevat to the point.
"if I read your post correctly, you seem to assume that ppl are going to accept your opinion on the basis of second hand information at best and your assertion that "you saw your friend and/or some botters do a raid "... How is this a credible source on a board for players wanting to learn about L2?"
Above i described you some of the pve mechanics of wow compared to l2,what do you want more to back my statement ?screenshots?videos?and while i can tell lies about it and noone is forced to believe me you didnt say anything to back up the pve tactics and complexity of l2.You just stated that my opinion is not credible based on second hand information and on botters and cheaters.Enlighten us on what you think of pve raids of l2 with tactics involved and provide your information to describe l2 pve raids to the readers of this thread.
Again i am not a troll,as you can see my posts are always this big and somehow detailed,they might be speculations and not credible facts but i try to state my opinions and back them up based on my own experience.Yes i can be an ass many times but any reader with half a brain can seperate from my posts where i am ignorant about something and try to act like i know it and when i am not ignorant.
Based on my experience Wows pve raids (and knowing i am speaking and refering to a BT wow experienced player such as the OP is) and l2 pve limited raid experience ,i state that the op is going to die of boredom in l2 raids.You may believe it or not but that is my opinion that i share with you.
My angry stance against l2 is because i sucked at l2 and for me it had potential to be better (in my personal aspect of the game mechanics).In the end it was my first mmorpg.
Please guys if you want to respond to my post do it with simpler english meanings cause i am struggling here.
Soon comes the day all shall be free.
Even you, and even me.
Soon comes the day all shall die.
Surely you, but never I!
Ok excellent post, now we have something to discuss.
i never tried to lecture someone here,an opinion is an opinion,not something to force someone in believing it.Wow did not reinvent the wheel is true but it has upgraded the wheel with pirelli tires instead of wood.You also state that you have a general understanding of wow pve mechanics (the same general understanding as i have with l2's pve mechanics).
Whether its an upgrade is again a matter of opinon, you need to tell ppl in comparison to what ? Grandiose generalisations are a waste of time... Irrespective of which, you don't see me posting random opinions in WoW forums citing vague references to the game and comparing it with L2, given the dissimilar game engines and skill systems, albeit framed together by a common XP and loot model.
By your words the same pre raid dynamic can be said for wow ,you need to craft potions buy reagents ,farm instances for equip ,attune players to raids,read tactics on sites,download the latest addons,organize your channels,buy the best enchants,retalent to pve specs that suit better this boss or the general raid instance.And yes these thins although not pvp oriented,play a significant role on wow's pve preparation and organisation.
Not quite, I wasn't talking about consumables. Given L2's dynamic nature you actually have to plan the fight ahead of it occuring and then try to react to any changes. What I mean here is where you set up your macros for the Boss fight as well as for any PvP eventualities. In the same vein the group make up for raids still has to be able to address any PvP encounters.
Whilst there may be an overall similarity to WoW, the focus is much different. You are preparing for a single eventuality, since if I understand correctly once you begin your instance you are effectively isolated from the rest of your environment. The worst you can get is a meeting engagement on the way to the raidboss, which you can chose to prosecute or not. This is not a luxury we enjoy in L2, you can be attacked at any time anywhere regardless. The only exception to this is the Dimensional Rift which is an instanced mini raid designed to allow casual players experience a one group style raid encounter, and arguably the 1hr lockout on Baium's port in point, although this is only if you can wake him in time before the competing clan can port in.
Similarly the buff round in L2 is much shorter resulting in a completely different timing approach to the raid fight. Not only are you calculating the time when you will need to rebuff but also recharge requirements for specific classes.
It would seem bizzare that you can draw such ardent conclusions about L2s raid game on the basis of what you see on your friends screen?
I am trying to state that apart the organisation between players (that exists in every mmo) the raid bosses of L2 fall into the category of tank and spank with a bit of spice here and there.
Thats your opinion, and I again your just restating your earlier generalisation. There is a lot which goes into how aggro is managed in L2, through DPS, buffs, heals, songs, dances, and the interplay between them, however much of this occurs with far more simultaneity than in contrast for example to EQ1, where buffs lasted hours. In contrast to the overall difficulty or some semblance of challenged, the scripts once known, became no more routine than the fights which you so degrade in L2.
The only remaining significant difference was the time it took to go through the coordinated motions to win the encounter.
Allow me to explain,You will never witness a boss to be able to perform a spell and have a player specifically in his position to try and interrupt it,in wow this happens many times and its a part of many pve raid bosses,whether is intercept bu a warrior,kick by a rogue,silence by a priest, spell lock by a lock,counterspell by a mage,shield bash by a warrior again and many others.This happens never in L2.
Again you're basing this on what ? You opinion that WoW is the only game to have complex raids, by your reckoning ? You don't have to take my word for it do some research and look into EQ1 raids, but don't read too much about Fires of Heaven who were invited to playtest and approve WoW's raiding content...
WRT L2, Again what are you basing your assumptions on ? Things you've seen in videos or got told second hand ?
For your information bosses in L2 do all of the things you just described albeit a lot faster and more dynamically than perhaps you're used to. There is infact a mass debuff which the bosses can use, which strips all your buffs if you're within AoE range, bosses can also stun you with either a singe target or AoE effect, they have direct drains, AoE life taps, direct poison or AoE poision effects, MP drains, and varous other nasty dots based on the 4 base elemental spheres in L2.. Similarly, they have at their disposal an arsenal of debuffs which slow attacks, casting speed, evasion, accuracy, to mass root and paralysis effects. The list goes on...
This is not meant to be a pissing contest between L2 mobs do this and WoW mobs do that, however, and I will make the distinction since your raised it earlier, I don't consider myself an L2 expert. What I do consider myself is a long time L2 player with plenty of experience under my belt at various levels of the game.
Based on your relatively narrow list of differences there is infact very little "effects" based difference in the overal prosecution of a WoW and L2 raid.
What IS different is the way in which these effects come together, but I guess you allready knew this since these are two completely different combat engines, applying completely different skill styles to resolve a combat encounter... right ?
A lot of our posts here are for players to understand L2 better and make an informed choice whether they think the game is for them or not. You "seemingly" uninformed posts do not help this cause.
Lets proceed about tanking now,tanks in l2 in PVE always are "hate" spammers while not actively planning their course of action before,just press hate and pray that you will not lose the boss.In wow this doesnt happen cause there is this (more sofisticated than l2 imo) aggro list and aggro management .
I think you miss a fundamental point here. L2's skill system was never designed to the detailed degree that WoW's is. They are two different games and approach combat differently. L2 combat is shorter in general and does not require a compicated mosaic of skill use from each player. Rather the opposite is true where the short combat requires that every player in the group knows what skill to execute within the short duration of the fight.
Why ? Because it costs money to fight in L2 !
Unlike WoW every swing of the weapon or pull of the bowstring costs you money. Money which is hard to acquire and spend on said consumables.
There is also far more to L2's tanking than just a hate spam, which I'm sad to tell you is no longer a spam, as there have been numerous changes to the way tanking occurs in L2, but lets not get facts get in the way of a good rant.
The role of the tank in L2 PvE encounters is very dubious anyway. Despite NCSoft's best intention the disparity between damage dealt and damage mitigation/avoidance has relegated Tanks to the iconic status.
Tanks may "open" certain boss fights as part of a strategy, but once you understand that there is such a thing as an aggression list in L2 and how classes compete for the mobs focus you will find that it is not dissimilar to the constructs used in EQ1. Infact the model predates WoW by at least 12 months. Over time despite all their skills the tanks WILL lose aggro to DDs because they cannot match the soulshot boosted, and song/dance enhanced DPS spikes occuring from criticals and special attacks, which the tanks don't have.This then leads us into the relative strengths and weaknesses of L2s combat engine which is essentially a tangental issue, but one which plays a part in Raid Boss encounter resolution.
You may then perhaps understand that most raid leaders will engineer a transition between their melees or magic DDs throughout the raid to keep the Raid boss off their buffers, rechargers and healers.
Whilst this may be a simple tank and spank type activity to you, I assure you it takes some coordination and practice to pull off, taking into account all the things I have mentioned thusfar.
In l2 the boss doesnt have the ability to do something different to the second or third or last to the aggro list ,it just does something massive to all or a speciall move to the one targeted.
Thats not a "limitation" of L2, this is where this previously hammered over issue of difference in game design comes in...
Similarly, you don't have to spend 3-4 hrs to hack your way through random dungeon mobs just to get to the raid encounter. Good or bad, it makes no difference its just a feature of game design and the risk vs reward philosophy behind each one.
Having said that, most of the L2 Epic encounters still require you to hack your way into their lair (although these days ppl have worked out the bypasses, by summoning or shadow walking), generally require a key to enter the lair (many keys are single use, which poses a dilema if the raid fails, as the XP loss is another thing which WoW does not have do really deal with) and present you with a multitude of challenges during the encounter.
This may or may not be a cookie cutter version of a WoW raid which you would tolerate to call interesting, but I don't think that ppl will get too bogged down in comparative detail. Given the time taken to level an L2 character, equip them effectively, find a suitable alliance that is skilled and organised enough for such an encouner, it will be a thrilling journey in its own right, just to do such an encounter (hence why its called epic, clever no ? ) and again one that bares no relation to the ease of progression in WoW...
Above i described you some of the pve mechanics of wow compared to l2,what do you want more to back my statement ?screenshots?videos?
None of the above, you posting what you think the differences are is enough. As I posted previously a direct comparison will suffice, and to a limited degree with some prompting, you have done this. Thus I am able to answer your points.
Again i am not a troll,as you can see my posts are always this big and somehow detailed,they might be speculations and not credible facts but i try to state my opinions and back them up based on my own experience.Yes i can be an ass many times but any reader with half a brain can seperate from my posts where i am ignorant about something and try to act like i know it and when i am not ignorant.
Far be it for me to call you a troll, that is a mantle you have sown for yourself. There is nothing wrong with stating opinion, however, you did not back it up with any comparisons or facts, infact you criticised an aspect of L2, and with a statement like "flame on" invited (I can only surmise by what you wrote) some sort of response.
Why would anyone want to flame your post if you wrote sensibly form the outset?
Clearly you knew your post was inflamatory so why are you all of a sudden suggesting like you're hard done by, by having what you wrote called ignorant of the gameplay when infact you don't play L2?
Or as you have now conveniantly clarified played the game for a short while but had given it up for reasons of your own chosing...
And btw there is nothing wrong with your English or your syntax so far...
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
The Reckless Knight
Lunatris
The "flame on" which i wrote at the first post is bacause in my past 20 posts i have got 2 bans and 1 warning about what i wrote ,although these posts were just like the above i wrote,but they were containing RMT discussions and my opinions on them.I have been flamed in all of them and banned for some of them.
And its a pain to clear all the cookies after you got banned so you can at least lurk in the fora.
Soon comes the day all shall be free.
Even you, and even me.
Soon comes the day all shall die.
Surely you, but never I!