I think alot of people are seriously confusing the sucess of mmo game launches to content. Vanguard didnt fail on the lack of content, EvE did NOT become a success becouse of content (at launch), WoW didnt have battlegrounds, pvp objectives or heck raids at launch... Lineage2 ... heh.. yeah..
Lets just say Lineage2 had extremly few quests, and fields of mobbs and a XP bar. No gear above C grade for a long time and so on. Lineage2 did not have siege unthill abour 4-6 monhs after launch, only empty castles.
i can go on. These games are all today in som sucess (dunno about VG thou, but i hear its getting better), heck many of them are considered to be all in the top games today by different players.
Im not saying there can be no content however, all these games (excl VG) sticked throu becouse what they did have was playable, you could kill mobbs without hickups and lag. You could actually run around and do most quests without bugs.. still there where major bugs in mosts, example WoW and the loot bug that ran rampant the first months.. crazy shit with a 50/50 % chance to have to sit 2 minutes after you loot.
VG in my opinion failed becouse to much content didnt work, and there where major flaws making the game unplayable (memory leaks running rampant). However when i didt get to play the content without hickups it was fun.
A certain amount of content surely has to be there, however if it aint working.. it shouldnt be put in. And endgame stuff has a severly lower impact on the big playerbase then the midgame/startergame. As shown with EvE, WoW, L2 adding the endgame as it comes served them all well. Malking sure the playability didnt make players leave.
Imagine yourself playing two games, the first one has few starter quests, nice graphics that dont lag to much and awesome starter dungeon with no flaws. While the quests are few theres still enough to go by. The crafting system is simple and working, nothing major "oooh" about it, quite week system compared.
The second game has shitloads of quests, a crafting system that is so big you feel you never gonna master it all and 3 dungoens before lvl10!. The graphics are nice however lags as hell on to many random spots and the quests are booring and many are not working. 2 of the 3 dungoens are to buggy to complete in random groups couse stuff like elevators make ppl DC (VG pun intended).
now wich fucking game would you actually even have a chance to see the endgame of. The first is a perfect example of L2, the second can be compared to VG...
Playability, basic mechanics like combat, quests, crafting system must have playability. If it doesnt dont put it in.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
i guess if no one came to these forums spouting their BS about how this game or that game will fail ( cuz im sure most of the people who do post are infact game designers etc... yea............) no one would come read these forums.
We definitely cant have any good criticism about the games that arent out, just mindless drivel
In all the commenting about not caring about delays due to lacking PvP functions..your forgetting one key thing: for PvPers, the PvP functions are the only things that matter on release because that's all they're paying for. While PvE players may dabble in PvP and therefore not care if it's a little lacking at first, the PvP hardcore feel that it's a slap in the face not to have it all NOW...in fact they mostly feel slightled that they even have to go through the PvE storyline to even keep up with the items and such so they can PvP.
Personally, I say tough s*(@ to them because I'm a PvE player/dungeon crawler, but I can see why they would claim failure if what they want isn't in.
u can still pvp even if the this stuff isnt in ( even tho it most likely will be, since some already is, if not all ) It'll just be the people who do nothing but try to rush to lvl 80 would be stuck without their sieges ( which wont be the case) but who cares, thats there fault for not enjoying the game a bit.
and incase someone wants to try to be like OMG MAYBE ITS FUN FOR THEM, no sorry. The PLing isnt fun, maybe what they get out of it is, but not the act itself.
In all the commenting about not caring about delays due to lacking PvP functions..your forgetting one key thing: for PvPers, the PvP functions are the only things that matter on release because that's all they're paying for. While PvE players may dabble in PvP and therefore not care if it's a little lacking at first, the PvP hardcore feel that it's a slap in the face not to have it all NOW...in fact they mostly feel slightled that they even have to go through the PvE storyline to even keep up with the items and such so they can PvP.
Personally, I say tough s*(@ to them because I'm a PvE player/dungeon crawler, but I can see why they would claim failure if what they want isn't in.
I agree the basic elements of PvP is a must at launch for the general public. However ill bet you more PvPs will stick to the game if the basic mechanics (you can actually fighta and duel on a somewhat balanced system) then if the game has it all at start but the basics are lacking, killing the normal fights aswell as the advanced mechanics like wars and sieges.
I stick to it with L2 as a perfect example, PvP combat was going crazy on the first months even if sieges took about 6 months to arrive. Hey look at WoW (NOTE: i severly HATE the BG concept) it only had basic combat at start, no BGs, no arena.. ppl fought eachother in epic fights on hillsbrad... Classes where unbalanced to ne end and bugs everywhere, but no major once. It was very playable.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
Because at the VERY INSTANT a whiff of something NOT in the game the day of launch - EVEN IF IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPLETE on day one - believe me ALL HELL will break loose! Every fanboi and his mother will be knocking down the doors of Funcom demanding refunds, cancelling subscriptions, and just PLASTERING gaming web sites and forums with hate posts and what not.
No wonder they don't want Official Forums - because police-ing this kind of immature behavior is expensive, exhaustive, and just plain bad for PR.
MMORPG's are dynamic and large - systems aren't built in a day - relax - they are going to release the game. If the game was to be perfect on day one, then there will be zero need for subsequent patches and fixes. But of course, any MMO you play, even Age of Conan, will have to go through growing pains and bug fixes, patches, content updates and even expansions. Let's let them get the damn thing out the door first in as playable a state as possible. Then in 5 months when the actual possibility of having these gigantic 200 RvR sieges occurs in game, then lets wonder where they are. But until then, relax! Enjoy the game when it comes out!
In all the commenting about not caring about delays due to lacking PvP functions..your forgetting one key thing: for PvPers, the PvP functions are the only things that matter on release because that's all they're paying for. While PvE players may dabble in PvP and therefore not care if it's a little lacking at first, the PvP hardcore feel that it's a slap in the face not to have it all NOW...in fact they mostly feel slightled that they even have to go through the PvE storyline to even keep up with the items and such so they can PvP.
Personally, I say tough s*(@ to them because I'm a PvE player/dungeon crawler, but I can see why they would claim failure if what they want isn't in.
Exactly. For the hardcore PvP crowd, if there is even a wiff of stink in the air about the Battle Keeps, Funcom will lose these guys. AoC best be 100% PvP content complete at launch or watch them flock to WAR for RvR faster than you can say AoC. After Vanguard, Fury, HG:L, POTBS, and TR... the PvP community is pretty desperate and tired of all the promises of greatness only to be dished out disappointments. It is no wonder a lot of people are skipping everything else and holding on to Darkfall Online for hope even if it never makes it to launch.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
In all the commenting about not caring about delays due to lacking PvP functions..your forgetting one key thing: for PvPers, the PvP functions are the only things that matter on release because that's all they're paying for. While PvE players may dabble in PvP and therefore not care if it's a little lacking at first, the PvP hardcore feel that it's a slap in the face not to have it all NOW...in fact they mostly feel slightled that they even have to go through the PvE storyline to even keep up with the items and such so they can PvP.
Personally, I say tough s*(@ to them because I'm a PvE player/dungeon crawler, but I can see why they would claim failure if what they want isn't in.
Exactly. For the hardcore PvP crowd, if there is even a wiff of stink in the air about the Battle Keeps, Funcom will lose these guys. AoC best be 100% PvP content complete at launch or watch them flock to WAR for RvR faster than you can say AoC. After Vanguard, Fury, HG:L, POTBS, and TR... the PvP community is pretty desperate and tired of all the promises of greatness only to be dished out disappointments. It is no wonder a lot of people are skipping everything else and holding on to Darkfall Online for hope even if it never makes it to launch.
even if it wasnt out by release, i doubt the hardcore community will flock to WAR seeing how it might not even make its Q2 release and darkfall will never actually be made. If they are forced to wait a month they will, they dont have any other options atm, WoW definitely doesnt have anything a real pvp player wants, they could always free to play Shadowbane while they wait...
Sorry, I frankly doubt the importance of the pvp only crowd. Consider warcraft. When it was first launched there was little pvp support. Only much later did they add in instances and major battle fields.
The only thing that is truely important at launch is a functional pve system. There are enough pve only people to easily support the game until the pvp side is finished. Those who dispute this look at Everquest or even WoW (wow has many pve end game areas that groups raid).
To further clairify my stance, pve systems include making sure melee/spell casting is fun and effective.
WoW still hasn't promised several things it said would be in the game years ago so I don't see this becoming another Vanguard unless it is bugged with glitches, lag, graphics issues, etc. Everything I have read of late and seen in actual play footage indicates it will be an excellant game quest wise and play wise. The game play looks very smooth now even the run animation looks 10 times better than 2 month ago. A reviewer of late wrote that the quests lines were some of the best he has seen in gaming. Delaying seiges a bit probably wouldn't hurt and allow people to settle into the game and actually get into a guild they like. It wouldn't hamper my playing in the least. As far as War coming out soon after I am curious as to the truth of that as they are still releasing concept art at the present. I am wondering how much of it is still in concept. Apparently delaying / axing promises doesn't hurt if the overall game is decent as Blizz continues to demonstrate.
Sorry, I frankly doubt the importance of the pvp only crowd. Consider warcraft. When it was first launched there was little pvp support. Only much later did they add in instances and major battle fields. The only thing that is truely important at launch is a functional pve system. There are enough pve only people to easily support the game until the pvp side is finished. Those who dispute this look at Everquest or even WoW (wow has many pve end game areas that groups raid). To further clairify my stance, pve systems include making sure melee/spell casting is fun and effective.
well the problem with comparing WoW to AoC in those terms is that WoW was never meant to be and still isnt a PvP focused game, and AoC is, i still dont think its going to hurt AoC at all and i also believe that the stuff people are QQing about will indeed be in, so pretty much this whole discussion is pointless
A key difference between the situation with WoW and the situation with AoC is that WoW never said they would have x number of battlegrounds or x number of pvp areas you can go to, and then not deliver that. They were just bonuses tacted on after release, that werent particularly expected.
Funcom has proclaimed from the beginning about their sieges and pvp and their intent to have them in at release. In fact, we were told back in 2007 at least that the game was functionally complete, all systems implemented, and they were just stomping bugs and polishing existing content. At the Leipzig event we were given an excuse that the reason why they couldnt show live player sieges was because they couldnt get enough computers and space at the event.
We now know that was a lie - but ultimately most people don't care if they are lied to throughout development, provided that the content is ready at release. BUT if it isn't ready at release.. I think the average person would be less likely to forgive. I think a lot of the hardcore fans will do their best at damage control because they want their game to succeed, in fact I see it already in this thread. But all the positive PR and spin in the world cannot change the reality of things if that reality is a poor one, as Vanguard showed. So if AoC really is poor, PR won't help it. And if AoC is good, then people will see that too.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Comments
I think alot of people are seriously confusing the sucess of mmo game launches to content. Vanguard didnt fail on the lack of content, EvE did NOT become a success becouse of content (at launch), WoW didnt have battlegrounds, pvp objectives or heck raids at launch... Lineage2 ... heh.. yeah..
Lets just say Lineage2 had extremly few quests, and fields of mobbs and a XP bar. No gear above C grade for a long time and so on. Lineage2 did not have siege unthill abour 4-6 monhs after launch, only empty castles.
i can go on. These games are all today in som sucess (dunno about VG thou, but i hear its getting better), heck many of them are considered to be all in the top games today by different players.
Im not saying there can be no content however, all these games (excl VG) sticked throu becouse what they did have was playable, you could kill mobbs without hickups and lag. You could actually run around and do most quests without bugs.. still there where major bugs in mosts, example WoW and the loot bug that ran rampant the first months.. crazy shit with a 50/50 % chance to have to sit 2 minutes after you loot.
VG in my opinion failed becouse to much content didnt work, and there where major flaws making the game unplayable (memory leaks running rampant). However when i didt get to play the content without hickups it was fun.
A certain amount of content surely has to be there, however if it aint working.. it shouldnt be put in. And endgame stuff has a severly lower impact on the big playerbase then the midgame/startergame. As shown with EvE, WoW, L2 adding the endgame as it comes served them all well. Malking sure the playability didnt make players leave.
Imagine yourself playing two games, the first one has few starter quests, nice graphics that dont lag to much and awesome starter dungeon with no flaws. While the quests are few theres still enough to go by. The crafting system is simple and working, nothing major "oooh" about it, quite week system compared.
The second game has shitloads of quests, a crafting system that is so big you feel you never gonna master it all and 3 dungoens before lvl10!. The graphics are nice however lags as hell on to many random spots and the quests are booring and many are not working. 2 of the 3 dungoens are to buggy to complete in random groups couse stuff like elevators make ppl DC (VG pun intended).
now wich fucking game would you actually even have a chance to see the endgame of. The first is a perfect example of L2, the second can be compared to VG...
Playability, basic mechanics like combat, quests, crafting system must have playability. If it doesnt dont put it in.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
i guess if no one came to these forums spouting their BS about how this game or that game will fail ( cuz im sure most of the people who do post are infact game designers etc... yea............) no one would come read these forums.
We definitely cant have any good criticism about the games that arent out, just mindless drivel
In all the commenting about not caring about delays due to lacking PvP functions..your forgetting one key thing: for PvPers, the PvP functions are the only things that matter on release because that's all they're paying for. While PvE players may dabble in PvP and therefore not care if it's a little lacking at first, the PvP hardcore feel that it's a slap in the face not to have it all NOW...in fact they mostly feel slightled that they even have to go through the PvE storyline to even keep up with the items and such so they can PvP.
Personally, I say tough s*(@ to them because I'm a PvE player/dungeon crawler, but I can see why they would claim failure if what they want isn't in.
u can still pvp even if the this stuff isnt in ( even tho it most likely will be, since some already is, if not all ) It'll just be the people who do nothing but try to rush to lvl 80 would be stuck without their sieges ( which wont be the case) but who cares, thats there fault for not enjoying the game a bit.
and incase someone wants to try to be like OMG MAYBE ITS FUN FOR THEM, no sorry. The PLing isnt fun, maybe what they get out of it is, but not the act itself.
I stick to it with L2 as a perfect example, PvP combat was going crazy on the first months even if sieges took about 6 months to arrive. Hey look at WoW (NOTE: i severly HATE the BG concept) it only had basic combat at start, no BGs, no arena.. ppl fought eachother in epic fights on hillsbrad... Classes where unbalanced to ne end and bugs everywhere, but no major once. It was very playable.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
Because at the VERY INSTANT a whiff of something NOT in the game the day of launch - EVEN IF IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPLETE on day one - believe me ALL HELL will break loose! Every fanboi and his mother will be knocking down the doors of Funcom demanding refunds, cancelling subscriptions, and just PLASTERING gaming web sites and forums with hate posts and what not.
No wonder they don't want Official Forums - because police-ing this kind of immature behavior is expensive, exhaustive, and just plain bad for PR.
MMORPG's are dynamic and large - systems aren't built in a day - relax - they are going to release the game. If the game was to be perfect on day one, then there will be zero need for subsequent patches and fixes. But of course, any MMO you play, even Age of Conan, will have to go through growing pains and bug fixes, patches, content updates and even expansions. Let's let them get the damn thing out the door first in as playable a state as possible. Then in 5 months when the actual possibility of having these gigantic 200 RvR sieges occurs in game, then lets wonder where they are. But until then, relax! Enjoy the game when it comes out!
Exactly. For the hardcore PvP crowd, if there is even a wiff of stink in the air about the Battle Keeps, Funcom will lose these guys. AoC best be 100% PvP content complete at launch or watch them flock to WAR for RvR faster than you can say AoC. After Vanguard, Fury, HG:L, POTBS, and TR... the PvP community is pretty desperate and tired of all the promises of greatness only to be dished out disappointments. It is no wonder a lot of people are skipping everything else and holding on to Darkfall Online for hope even if it never makes it to launch.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Exactly. For the hardcore PvP crowd, if there is even a wiff of stink in the air about the Battle Keeps, Funcom will lose these guys. AoC best be 100% PvP content complete at launch or watch them flock to WAR for RvR faster than you can say AoC. After Vanguard, Fury, HG:L, POTBS, and TR... the PvP community is pretty desperate and tired of all the promises of greatness only to be dished out disappointments. It is no wonder a lot of people are skipping everything else and holding on to Darkfall Online for hope even if it never makes it to launch.
even if it wasnt out by release, i doubt the hardcore community will flock to WAR seeing how it might not even make its Q2 release and darkfall will never actually be made. If they are forced to wait a month they will, they dont have any other options atm, WoW definitely doesnt have anything a real pvp player wants, they could always free to play Shadowbane while they wait...
Sorry, I frankly doubt the importance of the pvp only crowd. Consider warcraft. When it was first launched there was little pvp support. Only much later did they add in instances and major battle fields.
The only thing that is truely important at launch is a functional pve system. There are enough pve only people to easily support the game until the pvp side is finished. Those who dispute this look at Everquest or even WoW (wow has many pve end game areas that groups raid).
To further clairify my stance, pve systems include making sure melee/spell casting is fun and effective.
WoW still hasn't promised several things it said would be in the game years ago so I don't see this becoming another Vanguard unless it is bugged with glitches, lag, graphics issues, etc. Everything I have read of late and seen in actual play footage indicates it will be an excellant game quest wise and play wise. The game play looks very smooth now even the run animation looks 10 times better than 2 month ago. A reviewer of late wrote that the quests lines were some of the best he has seen in gaming. Delaying seiges a bit probably wouldn't hurt and allow people to settle into the game and actually get into a guild they like. It wouldn't hamper my playing in the least. As far as War coming out soon after I am curious as to the truth of that as they are still releasing concept art at the present. I am wondering how much of it is still in concept. Apparently delaying / axing promises doesn't hurt if the overall game is decent as Blizz continues to demonstrate.
well the problem with comparing WoW to AoC in those terms is that WoW was never meant to be and still isnt a PvP focused game, and AoC is, i still dont think its going to hurt AoC at all and i also believe that the stuff people are QQing about will indeed be in, so pretty much this whole discussion is pointless
A key difference between the situation with WoW and the situation with AoC is that WoW never said they would have x number of battlegrounds or x number of pvp areas you can go to, and then not deliver that. They were just bonuses tacted on after release, that werent particularly expected.
Funcom has proclaimed from the beginning about their sieges and pvp and their intent to have them in at release. In fact, we were told back in 2007 at least that the game was functionally complete, all systems implemented, and they were just stomping bugs and polishing existing content. At the Leipzig event we were given an excuse that the reason why they couldnt show live player sieges was because they couldnt get enough computers and space at the event.
We now know that was a lie - but ultimately most people don't care if they are lied to throughout development, provided that the content is ready at release. BUT if it isn't ready at release.. I think the average person would be less likely to forgive. I think a lot of the hardcore fans will do their best at damage control because they want their game to succeed, in fact I see it already in this thread. But all the positive PR and spin in the world cannot change the reality of things if that reality is a poor one, as Vanguard showed. So if AoC really is poor, PR won't help it. And if AoC is good, then people will see that too.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
ur gonna be waiting awhile for darkfall
Maybe, thanks for your contribution
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.