As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us? They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them. Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain. Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
I quote the bible as fact. I believe everything written in the bible is true. I have read many translations as well as i have learned to study from the greek and hebrew original texts. There are a ton of doctrines out there what you really need to do is be like the bereans and search the bible yourself to see if doctrines that are being taught are true. Granted there are some things in the bible that are loosely translated but if your a good steward of the word and an approved studier you'll be able to catch some of these things. I guess God should have thought about what he was doing when he scattered the languages at babal, really God is in control, he knows what he's doing but he also gave us a brain to recognize right from wrong it just takes some effort on our part.
Catholics were responsible for writing the New Testament (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit), the Catholic Church doesn't "interpret" the Bible. They explain it. Protestants can only "interpret", because they are not the author (guided by the Holy Spirit), and therefore, can only guess at the possible meaning of a chapter, passage or phrase, just as anyone can only guess at any author's intentions in any other book. As the author, the Catholic Church is the only proper authority to consult in matters pertaining to the Bible. Without the Catholic Church you have no Bible, just a bunch of books and letters. With the Church you have the Bible.
Gotta correct you on this..
The people who wrote the bible did so over a thousand-five hundred years ago, they were the ones supposedly guided by the holy spirit. Anyone and everyone who has read it, translated it, et cetera has interpreted it. The Catholic Church is different from it's original church, they are different people, they hold different views, and therefore they interpret the gospel just as every other denomonation of christianity.
I agree with the poster who said the bible is a guide, people see many condradictions in the bible simply because one book may word it differently than the other. I think in the end ppl are looking for a excuse to not believe in God. That is just my opinion and i'm sure someone will comment about me saying this...lol.
I also have a link to a website that may guide you, there is a question and answer section and even a section with bible condratictions, if you want go here and look to the left where the menu is. http://www.carm.org/ <~~ is the site.
The universe is endless; thus, it was never created, therefore, it will - and can - never be destroyed. (link the theories about Big Bang and Big Crash together)
Love G with all your heart and all your soul. Treat your neighbors with love and forgiveness, just as you would want them to do to you.
Study the many "religious" texts for ideas you might try to apply to YOURSELF to improve your existence... not to OTHERS; take guidance where others went wrong so you are less likely to make the same mistakes.
G still exists, establish a personal dialogue (eg. prayer, even a few times a day to help focus your thoughts.) You hope to spend eternity with/near G, use this earthly-mortal lifetime to prepare that you might be found worthy to get closer to G. Like His Will be done.
Consider all that you do, does it well represent your dedication to G.
The Christ thing... 1. and the nt (new testament,) know that more than half of the nt is written by people that did NOT hear nor see Christ and his Teachings, those "scriptures" are based on hearsay. 2. the romans, jews and rcc (roman catholic church;) those guys not only murdered Christ but eight of his disciples. And for hundreds, even thousands of years took great sport putting to death others that did not PAY into their versions of dogma. Like most jews today venerate their babylonian talmud instead of their OT (Old Testament/ TaNaKh) so catholics venerate their latin-only nt and the pope insists only his version is the way to their iesu/ge-sus. They also sought to suppress and eliminate any other religious sects that did not support their dogmas. (eg. jews, heretics, protestants, moslems, witches, ect.) 3. If you really want the jew offshoot religion, the jew-Nazarene Christ Teachings, start with the guy's actual name (Yehoshua aramaic) with an english accent that is Joshua (Yeshua.) The proper name Yehoshua means G is salvation. Study and be aware of Christ's teachings from those that actually saw and heard them, real disciples trained by him. But worship G, do not be deceived and replace G and instead venerate Christ nor the nt. You will find from your studies of the OT how much of a NONO it is to replace G and worship something else. 4. What you find as the nt is what the byzantine romans fabricated to document in written form what was their endorsed version of saul's apostic dogma. This was necessary because 300 years after the crufixion most 'chrestians' were getting tired of waiting for Christ's return. So, they abridged allot of text/manuscripts that their version of catholicism would be founded on and abridged that to the jew OT.
But it all really comes down to your personal relationship with G. Those many opinions/scriptures of how that is best accomplished even this very life are chances for you to practice free-choice. Try to make G proud with how you live your life.
Catholics were responsible for writing the New Testament (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit), the Catholic Church doesn't "interpret" the Bible. They explain it. Protestants can only "interpret", because they are not the author (guided by the Holy Spirit), and therefore, can only guess at the possible meaning of a chapter, passage or phrase, just as anyone can only guess at any author's intentions in any other book. As the author, the Catholic Church is the only proper authority to consult in matters pertaining to the Bible. Without the Catholic Church you have no Bible, just a bunch of books and letters. With the Church you have the Bible.
This is pure BS lol..the Catholic church the only people with proper authority lol..that's what they have convinced their followers over the years but the truth is they are sending there followers to hell. The holy mother that you worship is a lie and she never looked like how the church is portraying her. There is only one true version of the bible and that is the old testament of which all others are based.
White europeans were never part of that book and have NO connection to the holyseed..its a lie. That man in Rome masquerading as the holy man on earth is a lie and his only connection to god or Yashua is he learnt the teachings from the false scriptures of 7 century and 15 century racist who have kept the truth hidden for 100s of years..
The pope is no more holy than you or me for that matter. There was never anyone called Jesus Christ and the name Jesus was introduced in the 15 century by England. It is a latin word but replaced with a j instead of an i.
Your so called holy leader is sending his followers to hell believing in false idols and unholy scriptures.
As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us? They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them. Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain. Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
If you are asking if I believe everything put forth as science just because it is "science" then no.
I need to have at least a rudimentary understanding of a theory to believe or disbelieve it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel you're the best to answer this, also you brought it up. Why is it necessary for Jesus to die for man's sins. It is not justice in my mind that people are born with original sin. So if I have a son, the son is already born with sins and already has a debt at a few years old. So if a baby dies do they go to hell? Post-baptism? pre-baptism? Is a child x<10 years old responsible for their beliefs?
I am just trying to understand the issue with Jesus dying for our sins. I am looking it up on wikipedia, i guess i originally thought it was due to Adam's weakness and thus if we believe in Jesus we get those sins that someone else committed wiped out? Sorry if i sound ignorant, i just don't understand it?
To the OP:
Anyway, questioning something is good, but a person better be open-minded to the answer. Furthermore, if you're going to question something in anything, it's best, you do some research about it in general.
In reference to science.
I consider myself a pre-scientist (meaning I do science but i'm not a Ph.D. in a subject).
The point I want to make is that the more I research science, the more bullshit it becomes. So many things are contradictory its not even funny. So much science is really BS science that someone just passes through to keep their job or to convince the market of a dubious product. There is a lot of science that is fantastic, but science is not the end all and be all and i wouldn't consider science an alternative to religion. Then again, I think religion and science go hand in hand but that's just me. If i wasn't into science myself, i'd be an atheist for sure. Thus, science convinces me of religion. I know, I'm weird. I cringe when someone thinks of science as the golden standard of truth and fact. It's a really good one, it's probably one of the highest standards we have, but it's not 100% factual.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Interesting thread, Hey Draenor, I feel you're the best to answer this, also you brought it up. Why is it necessary for Jesus to die for man's sins. It is not justice in my mind that people are born with original sin. So if I have a son, the son is already born with sins and already has a debt at a few years old. So if a baby dies do they go to hell? Post-baptism? pre-baptism? Is a child x<10 years old responsible for their beliefs? I am just trying to understand the issue with Jesus dying for our sins. I am looking it up on wikipedia, i guess i originally thought it was due to Adam's weakness and thus if we believe in Jesus we get those sins that someone else committed wiped out? Sorry if i sound ignorant, i just don't understand it?
To the OP: Anyway, questioning something is good, but a person better be open-minded to the answer. Furthermore, if you're going to question something in anything, it's best, you do some research about it in general. In reference to science. I consider myself a pre-scientist (meaning I do science but i'm not a Ph.D. in a subject). The point I want to make is that the more I research science, the more bullshit it becomes. So many things are contradictory its not even funny. So much science is really BS science that someone just passes through to keep their job or to convince the market of a dubious product. There is a lot of science that is fantastic, but science is not the end all and be all and i wouldn't consider science an alternative to religion. Then again, I think religion and science go hand in hand but that's just me. If i wasn't into science myself, i'd be an atheist for sure. Thus, science convinces me of religion. I know, I'm weird. I cringe when someone thinks of science as the golden standard of truth and fact. It's a really good one, it's probably one of the highest standards we have, but it's not 100% factual. Cryomatrix
This may or may not help you but its a guide nonetheless but also note Adam was the first and we inherit from him his nature....his traits...his free will, his curiousity, and also his rebellion. We all inherited something from our ancestors...im 6'1" tall and have brownish hair...is it fair that i inherited this from my ancestors?
As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us? They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them. Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain. Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
You were bashing religion.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
Catholics were responsible for writing the New Testament (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit), the Catholic Church doesn't "interpret" the Bible. They explain it. Protestants can only "interpret", because they are not the author (guided by the Holy Spirit), and therefore, can only guess at the possible meaning of a chapter, passage or phrase, just as anyone can only guess at any author's intentions in any other book. As the author, the Catholic Church is the only proper authority to consult in matters pertaining to the Bible. Without the Catholic Church you have no Bible, just a bunch of books and letters. With the Church you have the Bible.
You are the only one thats used this statment....And Im not surprised.From the BIker's I've hungout with from time to time, they are the most real people I've know.And That is the most powerful comment made in this post.The Devil is in the details..
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
Why believe a book that people wrote ages ago? Just made up stories......
Has there ever been any proof of "GOD"? no......
"Have faith" was just invented as a excuse to get outta any questions.
You think it's more believable that the universe and time just appeared?
Who said the universe came from nowhere? Besides where did God come from? Surely if he could come from nowhere then the Universe could? I mean The Universe has always been there but just in a different form.... noone knows the truth anyways but I sure as hell don't believe in a God made up by man.
Friggin why believe in a God when the story of evolution and how the universe is created is a far more diverse and beautiful story and more interesting story. Have you ever watched Planet Earth and Blue Planet? It's like if that's what evolution and time can make then i'd rather believe in this theory than a God.
Who made God doesn't really concern me. He is my creator and I respect him for that. Anything beyond him is of his concern. I owe him the respect of creating me though.
I'm not so sure where the argument "who made God" means anything really. Why do people get tied up with that? Our creator has promised us that he will take care of us if we respect him and his love. It's just like a human father asking his child to respect the rules of his house or he's out of there. I don't think the things he asks of us are too unreasonable. Apparently, some people do because they find them so hard to follow. And even then, all you have to do is admit you were wrong and ask him to forgive you.
And the reason I believe in a God is because of his promise to guide us in life and after.
I agree with the poster who said the bible is a guide, people see many condradictions in the bible simply because one book may word it differently than the other. I think in the end ppl are looking for a excuse to not believe in God. That is just my opinion and i'm sure someone will comment about me saying this...lol. I also have a link to a website that may guide you, there is a question and answer section and even a section with bible condratictions, if you want go here and look to the left where the menu is. http://www.carm.org/ <~~ is the site.
I disagree with that. I'm not looking at the contradictions as a way of not believing in God. I'm looking at them as proof that man has taken God's love for all of us and tried to mess it all up.
Look, I'm a prime example. I cannot in my heart ever believe that God does not approve of me being gay. I know it because I also know that he made me this way. Those misinterpretations and contradictions pointed the way for me to find the truth. When I found out about the first misinterpretation I got the greatest feeling of hope I've ever felt in my whole life. Then when I had the others pointed out, I finally felt a feeling of acceptance that no person or amount of people could ever give me.
I wish more people would learn about those contradictions and misinterpretations so that they too could find their way to be close to God. You can't find God unless you question the people who are claiming to want to show you how to get there.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
This is a fascinating question, and of course very hard to answer due to humans being a very complex animal. Humans are a social species, the abstract of identity goes hand in hand with communication. Nothing can develop a sense of identity if there is no others to have reference with. The social interaction is also a comforting structure, I am ok because there are others, daily small talk is very similar to social grooming, "how are you today? good thanks and you?" it is about recognizing and reaffirming us as individuals, that individuality maters and that through social interaction we can achieve things we cannot do alone. There was a very nice example of this behavioral issue given in “I am Legend”
Storytelling is an extension of the abstraction of identity. It is also an intrinsic part of scientific endeavor. Scientific method is used to affirm or disprove a scientific hypothesis, or previously described observations, both of which are 'only' stories.
In having an identity we start to ask certain questions like, "Do I ever stop being? Where is my child who has been killed in an auto incident?". These are difficult questions, very upsetting, the necessity of self preservation is clearly a good evolutionary trait, as is the protection of our genetic material. It is important that we care about the preservation of our own existence and that of our children for the propagation of the species. The anxiety, fear and distress are important biochemical processes we experience to reinforce our behavior. However through our social environment we can be comforted through the distress and continue to assist in the species survival. "It’s OK, you and your child go to a better place. You will be reunited in the future. No, there is no evidence this happen but you can have faith and be comforted that this is the truth. Here is a very large collection of stories that other people also have faith in, you can join them and be comforted."
Evolutionarily the storytelling process of religion is helpful to sustain us and make us succeed as a species.
But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful. Initially this seems like a very good evolutionary rule to have, you produce offspring so the species is sustained. However, through education you can produce more food through modern farming techniques and technologies, so if you invest more education in fewer children, the species may benefit more. Then there is the spread of STDs to consider, does "though shall not use a condom" preserve our species or the AIDS virus?
Moral rules have to be dynamic in order to address the changing issues our species faces.
As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us? They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them. Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain. Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
You were bashing religion.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.
While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.
While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
good stuff, but did this hypothetical sun worshiping cave man have fire? or spears, baskets, fishing nets, clothing, furs or any technology?
what about the technology of language? to tell his stories of what the sun is and that it deserves worship. The abilty to teach that language?
science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc, it does not give any moral value to anything.
"What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other?"
religeon is an act of faith, so religeon will tell you whatever it is that the specific dogma you follow is what you should believe about science. it will also give some moral value as to why you should believe that. your above question shows some of this by implying that one is of greater value by which is 'nothing more than' a subset of the other, so which came first or which is better, superior.
Science is as i said a tool, so anything science tells us about religeon is something we can use as a technology. it does not say which is better though.
lets take a hypothetical example, if we found out why cults exist and how to manipulate them, we could either prevent and break down death cults or create more (kool aid anyone?).
As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us? They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them. Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain. Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
You were bashing religion.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.
While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
Don't evade the question by asking one of your own. A very childish question yours is, btw. Scientific method is very new to religion.
So PLEASE look up what science tells us about religion. Maybe it'll make you stop your pointless religion bashing.
Originally posted by nurgles
Originally posted by MadAce
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.
Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.
BTW, priests, celibacy.
Originally posted by nurgles
Originally posted by xpowderx
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.
While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc, it does not give any moral value to anything.
Religion is a tool too.
And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.
I agree with the poster who said the bible is a guide, people see many condradictions in the bible simply because one book may word it differently than the other. I think in the end ppl are looking for a excuse to not believe in God. That is just my opinion and i'm sure someone will comment about me saying this...lol. I also have a link to a website that may guide you, there is a question and answer section and even a section with bible condratictions, if you want go here and look to the left where the menu is. http://www.carm.org/ <~~ is the site.
I disagree with that. I'm not looking at the contradictions as a way of not believing in God. I'm looking at them as proof that man has taken God's love for all of us and tried to mess it all up.
Look, I'm a prime example. I cannot in my heart ever believe that God does not approve of me being gay. I know it because I also know that he made me this way. Those misinterpretations and contradictions pointed the way for me to find the truth. When I found out about the first misinterpretation I got the greatest feeling of hope I've ever felt in my whole life. Then when I had the others pointed out, I finally felt a feeling of acceptance that no person or amount of people could ever give me.
I wish more people would learn about those contradictions and misinterpretations so that they too could find their way to be close to God. You can't find God unless you question the people who are claiming to want to show you how to get there.
i believe you chose to be gay just like the murderer chose to kill, like the pedophile chose to molest the little boy. Deep down they knew it was wrong...but there lust, there desire made them do it....your lust and desire makes you do whatever you do. Its also a preference i perfer a latina over a white or black girl any day. God made me dislike white girls...no he gave me the ability to choose and i feel more attractive to those types. I know you feel that its right to be gay even society makes you think that as well. I'm not going to bash anyone for being gay i just disagree with there choice,there lifestyle....just as i disagree with someone who rapes, kills, or molests. I know your thinking im putting you in a category with half of the people in prison....im not im just simply showing examples of who i disagree with. I'm not perfect im a sinner just like everyone else.....you would disagree with me and my lifestyle, but its really about this.....if these first christians really didnt have prove of Jesus and really didnt see him why would all of his disciples endure so much hardship for someone who really isnt the saviour? I know i wouldnt go around the world teaching and professing and enduring torture, death for something a man just made up. I cant prove God exist to you just as you cant prove if the apple im eating tastes sweet or sour. Experience is what i have, i've experience God in my life. No one can tell me any difference because not only have I seen it but others around have seen a krazy, depressed, guy gone from hating every1 to loving everyone. If there was no God then how does someone change in the blink of an eye just by praying to the wind? I know all of this doesnt really relate to what you said ...im just rambling...lol God Bless you and keep you safe.
all of this is with love not hate or bashing.... I know you may feel offended but i would rather have a brother tell me he disagrees then a enemy.... I am your brother in Christ. much love!
As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us? They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them. Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain. Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
You were bashing religion.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.
While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
Don't evade the question by asking one of your own. A very childish question yours is, btw. Scientific method is very new to religion.
So PLEASE look up what science tells us about religion. Maybe it'll make you stop your pointless religion bashing.
Originally posted by nurgles
Originally posted by MadAce
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.
Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.
BTW, priests, celibacy.
Originally posted by nurgles
Originally posted by xpowderx
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.
While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc, it does not give any moral value to anything.
Religion is a tool too.
And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.
Mad Ace, first and foremost i am not bashing religion, nor am I science. Those members who know me know i am a pro-advocate for I.D and Quantum Physics. As to personal opinion(thats my comment is childish) , you should perhaps fully read and interpret what was said in my opinion. I notice you seem offended whenever a question arise for or against religion. You searching for something??
The questions I asked were very sincere. I wont apologize if someone does not like them. Because honestly they should be addressed before taking this debate further. You are right, religion is a tool as is science. Its a big high-five for being programmed. My questions in the above post still stand.
I recently converted to Christianity. I'm proud of my decision. However, I don't think that anyone who is a conventional evangelical Christian would find they agree with me on too much. I find it relatively easy to question items in the Bible that is of widespread use in most of the evangelical churches. I know there are a some slight variations in that Bible even. But I find it sad to hear people quote it as if it is absolute fact without question. Even amongst the folks who have studied the ancient languages there is disagreement to some extent or another on what the translations are. And even amongst those folks there are some scriptures where they almost unanimously disagree on what evangelicals use as translations. The reason that I am prompted to write this is actually two reasons. The motivation first off was a show that I was just watching about Jesus. In it they were talking about Judas. Judas has long been thought of in evangelical circles as the betrayer of Jesus. But he wasn't. They had a Greek language scholar say that those are mistranslations. He even said it with a chuckle in his voice leading me to believe he was laughing at how crazy it all is. He said those Greek passages say that Judas was simply the one that handed him over, not took money as betrayal. In other words, Jesus told him to go to the high priests and turn him in. He told him to because Judas was the one disciple he called his "friend" and that he trusted enough to perform the task. Now, here's my other motivation. I wonder if anyone who is an evangelical ever considers what they are doing? If this is a mistranslation, then why aren't you guys able to question this and other mistranslations and have it fixed? Why? Is it because tradition is too strong a factor? Or is it because if you question one mistranslation then the house of cards might come tumbling down? I would think that people would want the truth to be told. But then again, I have seen all too often where the truth has been hidden. Also, the church I attend welcomes, even encourages, questions like this. Our preacher will stand up and profess anything found by one of us to the whole during a sermon. It's not hidden, it's opened. Is this the case in your church? Or does that King James version of the Bible just keep on trucking along no matter?
Background on my education: Everyone at my school recieves a minor in Bible and theology, and some of my teachers are world renowned historians and archaologists who have appeared on various news programs.
Now, that said, The whole Judas thing is a farce. Especially if you're talking about the gospel of Judas, which was written hundreds of years after the canon was finalized by a group of people known as the gnostics, I'll let you do your own research on them.
As far as the translation itself, all four gospels paint a picture of Judas that is very negative, and John's gospel even says that he stole from the funds of the disciples...Now I don't speak ancient Greek, nor do I have any of my teachers sitting next to me right now (that would be quite creepy) but I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that Bible scholars throughout time have simply ignored glaring mistranslations that Judas was actually Jesus' only real friend, and would instead paint a picture of him as a betrayer. All that said, I would like to see the sources for the claims made by the documentary that you referenced, if they seem at all valid I'll gladly cross reference them with some of my teachers when I get back from Spring Break.
As far as the translations used by most evangelical churches, you will find very few modern evangelical churches who use a King James translation. Most of them use NIV, NASB, or even an NL...The King James is actually the preferred Bible of the mormon church due to its many flaws in translations (makes it easier to distort the meaning to fit with their beliefs about who Jesus is).
All I can ask then, is how come none of your teachers were asked to be on the show? I'm not so naive to think that every documentary on television is one full of the most knowledgeable of experts, but they had a slew of people on there saying the same thing. And these were not theologians, but experts of the ancient Greek language. In other words, they had no bone to pick other than the mistranslation. I am much more inclined to believe what they say. Especially since they have studied other Greek documents even outside of religious texts and seen that word used in that same manner meaning "to hand over".
My preacher at my church tells us all the time that there are some old people in the church who don't want to let go. They profess to be experts but all they are are experts at keeping their jobs and at not looking for new knowledge. I think as more of these people fall off then things are changing. You can see it around you everywhere. People are beginning to question conventional texts, and I'm glad. I don't want to follow the wrong teachings. I want the questions to come up because I want the strong debate.
It doesn't worry me if a text in the Bible is found to be mistranslated. What does worry me is if it is not changed. This sticking to tradition formula freaks me out. To me, it's a sign that the leaders at the top don't want to let go of the stranglehold they have and the people at the bottom have become complacent. I don't think that's what Jesus would want from us. I think he wants us to seek his truth.
Oh, and that wasn't about the gospels of Judas. It was about the mistranslation of that word that is in today's Bible. I did a quick search and found something that explains it better than I maybe am. I hate quoting stuff from the Internet, so don't hold this against me. It seems so cheap as to these forums lately.
Now, what's really funny is I decided to look the word up for my own translation. Here's what I found. Notice that it has the definition as hand over, but then when you get down to the translation in the Bible they actually in their own way admit that it was wrong by posting the translations that are in the Bible!!!!!!!!
I heard a theory that some people have about Judas. it states that Judas only betrayed Jesus because he wanted Jesus to tell the people that he was the messiah. Proof= When the High Priest paid Judas, he threw the 30 pieces of silver in the face of the High Priest. Also Judas is said to of broke down and wept after the death verdict was announced. He also hung himself and I wouldn't be suprised if Judas asked for Gods forgiviness, and God does kind of have an extensive history of forgiving.
As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us? They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them. Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain. Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
You were bashing religion.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.
While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
Don't evade the question by asking one of your own. A very childish question yours is, btw. Scientific method is very new to religion.
So PLEASE look up what science tells us about religion. Maybe it'll make you stop your pointless religion bashing.
Originally posted by nurgles
Originally posted by MadAce
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.
Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.
BTW, priests, celibacy.
Originally posted by nurgles
Originally posted by xpowderx
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.
While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc, it does not give any moral value to anything.
Religion is a tool too.
And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.
Mad Ace, first and foremost i am not bashing religion, nor am I science. Those members who know me know i am a pro-advocate for I.D and Quantum Physics. As to personal opinion(thats my comment is childish) , you should perhaps fully read and interpret what was said in my opinion. I notice you seem offended whenever a question arise for or against religion. You searching for something??
The questions I asked were very sincere. I wont apologize if someone does not like them. Because honestly they should be addressed before taking this debate further. You are right, religion is a tool as is science. Its a big high-five for being programmed. My questions in the above post still stand.
I never said you were bashing science. Maybe you're applying it in a biased way tho.
If I'm not mistaken you called religion "mankind's greatest ball and chain". Not a very scientific conclusion.
i believe you chose to be gay just like the murderer chose to kill, like the pedophile chose to molest the little boy. Deep down they knew it was wrong...but there lust, there desire made them do it....your lust and desire makes you do whatever you do.
Perhaps you should compare the first part of your post to where it led you in the end. Is it unreasonable to think that the disciples endured what befell them simply because it was their desire to be close to god and their unwavering belief that Jesus was son of god?
I'm not going to debate whether homosexuality is a choice or not (I don't believe it is, for the record), but so what if it is? Why should I care what someone else chooses to do with their life? Unlike your comparisons of murder and pedophilia, nobody was harmed in the homosexual act. So why are you so threatened by it? You still have every opportunity to find what makes you happy in life.
if these first christians really didnt have prove of Jesus and really didnt see him why would all of his disciples endure so much hardship for someone who really isnt the saviour? I know i wouldnt go around the world teaching and professing and enduring torture, death for something a man just made up.
People deal with alienation, bigotry and even torture every day becasue of their religion, sexual orientation, gender, race, class, etc. How does this differ from what Jesus and the disciples endured for their beliefs? Do you think you have anything in common with Pontius Pilate?
Being an agnostic, I have no opinions one way or the other. I spend a lot of time adding questions to a list that never gets anything checked off. I, like you, find it very hard to believe that a person would endure such torture and ultimately gruesome death for a position they didn't consider as fact. To me, this is not unlike soldiers who fight for their country or citizens who fight for racial equality or even same sex marriage. I think it's high time we stopped all the fear of people's differences and learned to embrace them. After all, that's what Jesus would have done, right?
For an interesting take on religion and politics Click the link in my sig area, watch the movie, sure it may seem low grade but... If you do some research of your own, youll find that what is being shown to you, is factual and proven from research you can find anywhere on the net or in your local library.
I WARN YOU, some parts of the documentary are shocking and can be disterbing to those that have placed everything into their personal invisible man and messenger.
If you veiw the movie and come to a point in your mind were you tell your self this movies bullcrap, then i challenge you to look up the parts you feel are crap. You will find the info is valid.
Veiw the documentary with an open mind and enjoy.
I personally was shocked.
The documentary is modern, and deals with religion, the American dollar, the Bushes, the north American Alliance that bush ninja signed us up for, 911 and building 7...
Enjoy, the movie link is hosted by the movie makers them selves and have a few different formats to choose from.
Comments
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
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I quote the bible as fact. I believe everything written in the bible is true. I have read many translations as well as i have learned to study from the greek and hebrew original texts. There are a ton of doctrines out there what you really need to do is be like the bereans and search the bible yourself to see if doctrines that are being taught are true. Granted there are some things in the bible that are loosely translated but if your a good steward of the word and an approved studier you'll be able to catch some of these things. I guess God should have thought about what he was doing when he scattered the languages at babal,
really God is in control, he knows what he's doing but he also gave us a brain to recognize right from wrong it just takes some effort on our part.
Keeper
The people who wrote the bible did so over a thousand-five hundred years ago, they were the ones supposedly guided by the holy spirit. Anyone and everyone who has read it, translated it, et cetera has interpreted it. The Catholic Church is different from it's original church, they are different people, they hold different views, and therefore they interpret the gospel just as every other denomonation of christianity.
I agree with the poster who said the bible is a guide, people see many condradictions in the bible simply because one book may word it differently than the other. I think in the end ppl are looking for a excuse to not believe in God. That is just my opinion and i'm sure someone will comment about me saying this...lol.
I also have a link to a website that may guide you, there is a question and answer section and even a section with bible condratictions, if you want go here and look to the left where the menu is. http://www.carm.org/ <~~ is the site.
The universe is endless; thus, it was never created, therefore, it will - and can - never be destroyed. (link the theories about Big Bang and Big Crash together)
Hello there, adventurer!
Love G with all your heart and all your soul.
Treat your neighbors with love and forgiveness, just as you would want them to do to you.
Study the many "religious" texts for ideas you might try to apply to YOURSELF to improve your existence... not to OTHERS; take guidance where others went wrong so you are less likely to make the same mistakes.
G still exists, establish a personal dialogue (eg. prayer, even a few times a day to help focus your thoughts.) You hope to spend eternity with/near G, use this earthly-mortal lifetime to prepare that you might be found worthy to get closer to G. Like His Will be done.
Consider all that you do, does it well represent your dedication to G.
The Christ thing...
1. and the nt (new testament,) know that more than half of the nt is written by people that did NOT hear nor see Christ and his Teachings, those "scriptures" are based on hearsay.
2. the romans, jews and rcc (roman catholic church;) those guys not only murdered Christ but eight of his disciples. And for hundreds, even thousands of years took great sport putting to death others that did not PAY into their versions of dogma. Like most jews today venerate their babylonian talmud instead of their OT (Old Testament/ TaNaKh) so catholics venerate their latin-only nt and the pope insists only his version is the way to their iesu/ge-sus. They also sought to suppress and eliminate any other religious sects that did not support their dogmas. (eg. jews, heretics, protestants, moslems, witches, ect.)
3. If you really want the jew offshoot religion, the jew-Nazarene Christ Teachings, start with the guy's actual name (Yehoshua aramaic) with an english accent that is Joshua (Yeshua.) The proper name Yehoshua means G is salvation. Study and be aware of Christ's teachings from those that actually saw and heard them, real disciples trained by him. But worship G, do not be deceived and replace G and instead venerate Christ nor the nt. You will find from your studies of the OT how much of a NONO it is to replace G and worship something else.
4. What you find as the nt is what the byzantine romans fabricated to document in written form what was their endorsed version of saul's apostic dogma. This was necessary because 300 years after the crufixion most 'chrestians' were getting tired of waiting for Christ's return. So, they abridged allot of text/manuscripts that their version of catholicism would be founded on and abridged that to the jew OT.
But it all really comes down to your personal relationship with G. Those many opinions/scriptures of how that is best accomplished even this very life are chances for you to practice free-choice. Try to make G proud with how you live your life.
This is pure BS lol..the Catholic church the only people with proper authority lol..that's what they have convinced their followers over the years but the truth is they are sending there followers to hell. The holy mother that you worship is a lie and she never looked like how the church is portraying her. There is only one true version of the bible and that is the old testament of which all others are based.
White europeans were never part of that book and have NO connection to the holyseed..its a lie. That man in Rome masquerading as the holy man on earth is a lie and his only connection to god or Yashua is he learnt the teachings from the false scriptures of 7 century and 15 century racist who have kept the truth hidden for 100s of years..
The pope is no more holy than you or me for that matter. There was never anyone called Jesus Christ and the name Jesus was introduced in the 15 century by England. It is a latin word but replaced with a j instead of an i.
Your so called holy leader is sending his followers to hell believing in false idols and unholy scriptures.
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
If you are asking if I believe everything put forth as science just because it is "science" then no.
I need to have at least a rudimentary understanding of a theory to believe or disbelieve it.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Interesting thread,
Hey Draenor,
I feel you're the best to answer this, also you brought it up. Why is it necessary for Jesus to die for man's sins. It is not justice in my mind that people are born with original sin. So if I have a son, the son is already born with sins and already has a debt at a few years old. So if a baby dies do they go to hell? Post-baptism? pre-baptism? Is a child x<10 years old responsible for their beliefs?
I am just trying to understand the issue with Jesus dying for our sins. I am looking it up on wikipedia, i guess i originally thought it was due to Adam's weakness and thus if we believe in Jesus we get those sins that someone else committed wiped out? Sorry if i sound ignorant, i just don't understand it?
To the OP:
Anyway, questioning something is good, but a person better be open-minded to the answer. Furthermore, if you're going to question something in anything, it's best, you do some research about it in general.
In reference to science.
I consider myself a pre-scientist (meaning I do science but i'm not a Ph.D. in a subject).
The point I want to make is that the more I research science, the more bullshit it becomes. So many things are contradictory its not even funny. So much science is really BS science that someone just passes through to keep their job or to convince the market of a dubious product. There is a lot of science that is fantastic, but science is not the end all and be all and i wouldn't consider science an alternative to religion. Then again, I think religion and science go hand in hand but that's just me. If i wasn't into science myself, i'd be an atheist for sure. Thus, science convinces me of religion. I know, I'm weird. I cringe when someone thinks of science as the golden standard of truth and fact. It's a really good one, it's probably one of the highest standards we have, but it's not 100% factual.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Cryo read this http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm
This may or may not help you but its a guide nonetheless but also note Adam was the first and we inherit from him his nature....his traits...his free will, his curiousity, and also his rebellion. We all inherited something from our ancestors...im 6'1" tall and have brownish hair...is it fair that i inherited this from my ancestors?
also http://www.carm.org/questions/whydidGodcreateus.htm
http://www.carm.org/questions/people_sin.htm
http://www.carm.org/questions/hell.htm
Some other questions for skeptics...
http://www.carm.org/questions_skeptics.htm
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
You were bashing religion.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
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You are the only one thats used this statment....And Im not surprised.From the BIker's I've hungout with from time to time, they are the most real people I've know.And That is the most powerful comment made in this post.The Devil is in the details..
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
You think it's more believable that the universe and time just appeared?
Who made God doesn't really concern me. He is my creator and I respect him for that. Anything beyond him is of his concern. I owe him the respect of creating me though.Who said the universe came from nowhere? Besides where did God come from? Surely if he could come from nowhere then the Universe could? I mean The Universe has always been there but just in a different form.... noone knows the truth anyways but I sure as hell don't believe in a God made up by man.
Friggin why believe in a God when the story of evolution and how the universe is created is a far more diverse and beautiful story and more interesting story. Have you ever watched Planet Earth and Blue Planet? It's like if that's what evolution and time can make then i'd rather believe in this theory than a God.
I'm not so sure where the argument "who made God" means anything really. Why do people get tied up with that? Our creator has promised us that he will take care of us if we respect him and his love. It's just like a human father asking his child to respect the rules of his house or he's out of there. I don't think the things he asks of us are too unreasonable. Apparently, some people do because they find them so hard to follow. And even then, all you have to do is admit you were wrong and ask him to forgive you.
And the reason I believe in a God is because of his promise to guide us in life and after.
--------------------------------------
God could've made himself. You can safely drop linear thinking when dealing with all-powerful creatures.
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Look, I'm a prime example. I cannot in my heart ever believe that God does not approve of me being gay. I know it because I also know that he made me this way. Those misinterpretations and contradictions pointed the way for me to find the truth. When I found out about the first misinterpretation I got the greatest feeling of hope I've ever felt in my whole life. Then when I had the others pointed out, I finally felt a feeling of acceptance that no person or amount of people could ever give me.
I wish more people would learn about those contradictions and misinterpretations so that they too could find their way to be close to God. You can't find God unless you question the people who are claiming to want to show you how to get there.
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This is a fascinating question, and of course very hard to answer due to humans being a very complex animal. Humans are a social species, the abstract of identity goes hand in hand with communication. Nothing can develop a sense of identity if there is no others to have reference with. The social interaction is also a comforting structure, I am ok because there are others, daily small talk is very similar to social grooming, "how are you today? good thanks and you?" it is about recognizing and reaffirming us as individuals, that individuality maters and that through social interaction we can achieve things we cannot do alone. There was a very nice example of this behavioral issue given in “I am Legend”
Storytelling is an extension of the abstraction of identity. It is also an intrinsic part of scientific endeavor. Scientific method is used to affirm or disprove a scientific hypothesis, or previously described observations, both of which are 'only' stories.
In having an identity we start to ask certain questions like, "Do I ever stop being? Where is my child who has been killed in an auto incident?". These are difficult questions, very upsetting, the necessity of self preservation is clearly a good evolutionary trait, as is the protection of our genetic material. It is important that we care about the preservation of our own existence and that of our children for the propagation of the species. The anxiety, fear and distress are important biochemical processes we experience to reinforce our behavior. However through our social environment we can be comforted through the distress and continue to assist in the species survival. "It’s OK, you and your child go to a better place. You will be reunited in the future. No, there is no evidence this happen but you can have faith and be comforted that this is the truth. Here is a very large collection of stories that other people also have faith in, you can join them and be comforted."
Evolutionarily the storytelling process of religion is helpful to sustain us and make us succeed as a species.
But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful. Initially this seems like a very good evolutionary rule to have, you produce offspring so the species is sustained. However, through education you can produce more food through modern farming techniques and technologies, so if you invest more education in fewer children, the species may benefit more. Then there is the spread of STDs to consider, does "though shall not use a condom" preserve our species or the AIDS virus?
Moral rules have to be dynamic in order to address the changing issues our species faces.
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
You were bashing religion.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
good stuff, but did this hypothetical sun worshiping cave man have fire? or spears, baskets, fishing nets, clothing, furs or any technology?
what about the technology of language? to tell his stories of what the sun is and that it deserves worship. The abilty to teach that language?
science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc, it does not give any moral value to anything.
"What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other?"
religeon is an act of faith, so religeon will tell you whatever it is that the specific dogma you follow is what you should believe about science. it will also give some moral value as to why you should believe that. your above question shows some of this by implying that one is of greater value by which is 'nothing more than' a subset of the other, so which came first or which is better, superior.
Science is as i said a tool, so anything science tells us about religeon is something we can use as a technology. it does not say which is better though.
lets take a hypothetical example, if we found out why cults exist and how to manipulate them, we could either prevent and break down death cults or create more (kool aid anyone?).
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
You were bashing religion.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
Don't evade the question by asking one of your own. A very childish question yours is, btw. Scientific method is very new to religion.
So PLEASE look up what science tells us about religion. Maybe it'll make you stop your pointless religion bashing.
But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.
Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.
BTW, priests, celibacy.
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc, it does not give any moral value to anything.
Religion is a tool too.
And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.
CLICK HERE TO GET A LIST OF FREE MMO LISTS!!!
Look, I'm a prime example. I cannot in my heart ever believe that God does not approve of me being gay. I know it because I also know that he made me this way. Those misinterpretations and contradictions pointed the way for me to find the truth. When I found out about the first misinterpretation I got the greatest feeling of hope I've ever felt in my whole life. Then when I had the others pointed out, I finally felt a feeling of acceptance that no person or amount of people could ever give me.
I wish more people would learn about those contradictions and misinterpretations so that they too could find their way to be close to God. You can't find God unless you question the people who are claiming to want to show you how to get there.
i believe you chose to be gay just like the murderer chose to kill, like the pedophile chose to molest the little boy. Deep down they knew it was wrong...but there lust, there desire made them do it....your lust and desire makes you do whatever you do. Its also a preference i perfer a latina over a white or black girl any day. God made me dislike white girls...no he gave me the ability to choose and i feel more attractive to those types. I know you feel that its right to be gay even society makes you think that as well. I'm not going to bash anyone for being gay i just disagree with there choice,there lifestyle....just as i disagree with someone who rapes, kills, or molests. I know your thinking im putting you in a category with half of the people in prison....im not im just simply showing examples of who i disagree with. I'm not perfect im a sinner just like everyone else.....you would disagree with me and my lifestyle, but its really about this.....if these first christians really didnt have prove of Jesus and really didnt see him why would all of his disciples endure so much hardship for someone who really isnt the saviour? I know i wouldnt go around the world teaching and professing and enduring torture, death for something a man just made up. I cant prove God exist to you just as you cant prove if the apple im eating tastes sweet or sour. Experience is what i have, i've experience God in my life. No one can tell me any difference because not only have I seen it but others around have seen a krazy, depressed, guy gone from hating every1 to loving everyone. If there was no God then how does someone change in the blink of an eye just by praying to the wind? I know all of this doesnt really relate to what you said ...im just rambling...lol God Bless you and keep you safe.
all of this is with love not hate or bashing.... I know you may feel offended but i would rather have a brother tell me he disagrees then a enemy.... I am your brother in Christ. much love!
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
You were bashing religion.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
Don't evade the question by asking one of your own. A very childish question yours is, btw. Scientific method is very new to religion.
So PLEASE look up what science tells us about religion. Maybe it'll make you stop your pointless religion bashing.
But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.
Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.
BTW, priests, celibacy.
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc, it does not give any moral value to anything.
Religion is a tool too.
And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.
Mad Ace, first and foremost i am not bashing religion, nor am I science. Those members who know me know i am a pro-advocate for I.D and Quantum Physics. As to personal opinion(thats my comment is childish) , you should perhaps fully read and interpret what was said in my opinion. I notice you seem offended whenever a question arise for or against religion. You searching for something??The questions I asked were very sincere. I wont apologize if someone does not like them. Because honestly they should be addressed before taking this debate further. You are right, religion is a tool as is science. Its a big high-five for being programmed. My questions in the above post still stand.
Now, that said, The whole Judas thing is a farce. Especially if you're talking about the gospel of Judas, which was written hundreds of years after the canon was finalized by a group of people known as the gnostics, I'll let you do your own research on them.
As far as the translation itself, all four gospels paint a picture of Judas that is very negative, and John's gospel even says that he stole from the funds of the disciples...Now I don't speak ancient Greek, nor do I have any of my teachers sitting next to me right now (that would be quite creepy) but I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that Bible scholars throughout time have simply ignored glaring mistranslations that Judas was actually Jesus' only real friend, and would instead paint a picture of him as a betrayer. All that said, I would like to see the sources for the claims made by the documentary that you referenced, if they seem at all valid I'll gladly cross reference them with some of my teachers when I get back from Spring Break.
As far as the translations used by most evangelical churches, you will find very few modern evangelical churches who use a King James translation. Most of them use NIV, NASB, or even an NL...The King James is actually the preferred Bible of the mormon church due to its many flaws in translations (makes it easier to distort the meaning to fit with their beliefs about who Jesus is).
All I can ask then, is how come none of your teachers were asked to be on the show? I'm not so naive to think that every documentary on television is one full of the most knowledgeable of experts, but they had a slew of people on there saying the same thing. And these were not theologians, but experts of the ancient Greek language. In other words, they had no bone to pick other than the mistranslation. I am much more inclined to believe what they say. Especially since they have studied other Greek documents even outside of religious texts and seen that word used in that same manner meaning "to hand over".
My preacher at my church tells us all the time that there are some old people in the church who don't want to let go. They profess to be experts but all they are are experts at keeping their jobs and at not looking for new knowledge. I think as more of these people fall off then things are changing. You can see it around you everywhere. People are beginning to question conventional texts, and I'm glad. I don't want to follow the wrong teachings. I want the questions to come up because I want the strong debate.
It doesn't worry me if a text in the Bible is found to be mistranslated. What does worry me is if it is not changed. This sticking to tradition formula freaks me out. To me, it's a sign that the leaders at the top don't want to let go of the stranglehold they have and the people at the bottom have become complacent. I don't think that's what Jesus would want from us. I think he wants us to seek his truth.
Oh, and that wasn't about the gospels of Judas. It was about the mistranslation of that word that is in today's Bible. I did a quick search and found something that explains it better than I maybe am. I hate quoting stuff from the Internet, so don't hold this against me. It seems so cheap as to these forums lately.
Judas is accused of “betraying” Jesus. Yet the Greek word paradidomi has another, less pejorative meaning: to “hand over” or “surrender”. Here I call as defence witness Professor William Klassen, a Canadian scholar at the École Biblique in Jerusalem. Klassen points out that the word paradidomi is used 59 times in connection with Christ’s death: 27 times it is translated as “hand over”; but on the 32 occasions the word is used in relation to Judas, it becomes “betray”. Biased translators deliberately bolstered preconceived assumptions.
Now, what's really funny is I decided to look the word up for my own translation. Here's what I found. Notice that it has the definition as hand over, but then when you get down to the translation in the Bible they actually in their own way admit that it was wrong by posting the translations that are in the Bible!!!!!!!!
Paradidomi - The New Testament Greek Lexicon
I heard a theory that some people have about Judas. it states that Judas only betrayed Jesus because he wanted Jesus to tell the people that he was the messiah. Proof= When the High Priest paid Judas, he threw the 30 pieces of silver in the face of the High Priest. Also Judas is said to of broke down and wept after the death verdict was announced. He also hung himself and I wouldn't be suprised if Judas asked for Gods forgiviness, and God does kind of have an extensive history of forgiving.
I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?
Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.
You were bashing religion.
What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
Don't evade the question by asking one of your own. A very childish question yours is, btw. Scientific method is very new to religion.
So PLEASE look up what science tells us about religion. Maybe it'll make you stop your pointless religion bashing.
But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.
Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.
BTW, priests, celibacy.
The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.
science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc, it does not give any moral value to anything.
Religion is a tool too.
And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.
Mad Ace, first and foremost i am not bashing religion, nor am I science. Those members who know me know i am a pro-advocate for I.D and Quantum Physics. As to personal opinion(thats my comment is childish) , you should perhaps fully read and interpret what was said in my opinion. I notice you seem offended whenever a question arise for or against religion. You searching for something??The questions I asked were very sincere. I wont apologize if someone does not like them. Because honestly they should be addressed before taking this debate further. You are right, religion is a tool as is science. Its a big high-five for being programmed. My questions in the above post still stand.
I never said you were bashing science. Maybe you're applying it in a biased way tho.
If I'm not mistaken you called religion "mankind's greatest ball and chain". Not a very scientific conclusion.
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Perhaps you should compare the first part of your post to where it led you in the end. Is it unreasonable to think that the disciples endured what befell them simply because it was their desire to be close to god and their unwavering belief that Jesus was son of god?
I'm not going to debate whether homosexuality is a choice or not (I don't believe it is, for the record), but so what if it is? Why should I care what someone else chooses to do with their life? Unlike your comparisons of murder and pedophilia, nobody was harmed in the homosexual act. So why are you so threatened by it? You still have every opportunity to find what makes you happy in life.
People deal with alienation, bigotry and even torture every day becasue of their religion, sexual orientation, gender, race, class, etc. How does this differ from what Jesus and the disciples endured for their beliefs? Do you think you have anything in common with Pontius Pilate?
Being an agnostic, I have no opinions one way or the other. I spend a lot of time adding questions to a list that never gets anything checked off. I, like you, find it very hard to believe that a person would endure such torture and ultimately gruesome death for a position they didn't consider as fact. To me, this is not unlike soldiers who fight for their country or citizens who fight for racial equality or even same sex marriage. I think it's high time we stopped all the fear of people's differences and learned to embrace them. After all, that's what Jesus would have done, right?
For an interesting take on religion and politics Click the link in my sig area, watch the movie, sure it may seem low grade but... If you do some research of your own, youll find that what is being shown to you, is factual and proven from research you can find anywhere on the net or in your local library.
I WARN YOU, some parts of the documentary are shocking and can be disterbing to those that have placed everything into their personal invisible man and messenger.
If you veiw the movie and come to a point in your mind were you tell your self this movies bullcrap, then i challenge you to look up the parts you feel are crap. You will find the info is valid.
Veiw the documentary with an open mind and enjoy.
I personally was shocked.
The documentary is modern, and deals with religion, the American dollar, the Bushes, the north American Alliance that bush ninja signed us up for, 911 and building 7...
Enjoy, the movie link is hosted by the movie makers them selves and have a few different formats to choose from.
FoE Fist of the Empire
