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Will Jack Emmert screw the pooch? Arguably again?
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We have to remember that a significant segment of the CoH player base played a role in encouraging him to make all those negative changes in the game.
Anyone who spent some time on the forums over there can see how loud the fanboys were in that game and they were ready to praise anything the devs did even if Jack literally peed on the game. For God's sake they treated the devs like gods or celebrities with them being their personal fans. They would praise all their doings and defend them.
Funny enough, some of those same fanboys ended up bitten by even more bad changes later on that they didnt like.
But in all honesty, I think that even if those changes did not take place, the game might have lasted a little longer but its appeal would have weakened just as it did now.
The changes had nothing to do with the fact that the game is repetitive and cookie cut by design.
all coh needs to do is add new and fresh content and not in the way of TF's thats the one thing the game LACKS fresh content.
Emmert's okay. I think his changes were reasonable for the most part. He tended to want to make things weaker (him being the main coordinator for dominators at launch shows this, as well as his player=3 minions types of comments) but I think there's a good argument for going cautiously when handing out powers.
I recall PM'ing him twice (and I was not a regular forumite or anyone he would have felt he had to respond to) and he responded (personally) both times with well thought out comments. How many other games would have their head designers do that?
All in all, CoX was/is a good game with many innovative ideas. I'm not currently subscribed (just playing single player games right now) but it was my favorite MMO, and I played a fair number of them.
QFE like fresh i don't wanna run the same layout mish 3 times in a row!
I read a really good interview he did talking about CoX this may give you a little more info.
www.massively.com/2008/02/22/gdc08-jack-emmert-on-cryptics-success-and-failure/
based on that interview, and after consulting with the magic 8-ball; it seems the answer is, "yes".
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I don't think the mistakes were made post launch, but really pre-launch. The game engine was too hard coded to allow for many features that players wanted. The pre-launch hype and promises were huge and the expectation was that CoX was truly going to be different. Did the break away from the standard MMO conventions? Not really but they did make some deviations especially in character design (in abilites as well as look). But in the end it was still the same old MMO philosophy with a super hero wrapper. Don't get me wrong, there were many innovations in the game and so many actually that it really did make the game feel different than other games. But once you'd done the content through with one or 2 characters the underlying standard mmo philosophy really became evident.
So the real question here is Jack really going to make an innovative game that sets a new path for mmos or will it once again just be incremental changes?
He still doesn't acknowledge the fact that the nerf's he made did in fact detract from the game. It went from superhero to hey let's milk them more for the grind experience by making the game harder.
I played CoH at launch and for a while after and the game was/is too limited by its design. Simply, there aren't new things to do and the game has no, ZERO, zilch for depth.
Unless he can design the game to support my in-depth simulation then this game will be nothing more than CoH with a different skin.
Tecmo Bowl.
Players matter, but they don't own the game. Unfortunately, most players are in an age range where they'd prefer no challenge at all--they just want to rip up the pavement on their way to terminal level. They don't want the game--they want the end-game.
The joy is in the journey, not the destination. I, for one, think that making the game a challenge (which does not necessarily equate to "grind"), is a good thing. Giving the players immediate gratification is a bad thing (if I have to listen to another teenager complaining about how slow a game is or how they aren't "uber" enough, I'm going to vomit).
Arguing with me will not make you right.
YOUR in-depth simulation? Got ego?
Arguing with me will not make you right.
Heh. That did come across as megalomaniacal at first, but I think Thunderous means his immersion. That'd be a valid basis for judging CoH's unofficial sequel, I'd say.
I actually do expect superheroes to fight a lot of the time, but I agree that it would be a good idea for Champions to offer a much greater variety of activities.
So far, I have a lot of hope. They've paid attention to small details that CoH lacked, like allowing the player to choose movement animations for their hero.
Hopefully the more basic complaints, like the tedium of fighting in a succession of too-similar warehouses and offices, also made the To Do list.
So, true.
Players matter, but they don't own the game. Unfortunately, most players are in an age range where they'd prefer no challenge at all--they just want to rip up the pavement on their way to terminal level. They don't want the game--they want the end-game.
The joy is in the journey, not the destination. I, for one, think that making the game a challenge (which does not necessarily equate to "grind"), is a good thing. Giving the players immediate gratification is a bad thing (if I have to listen to another teenager complaining about how slow a game is or how they aren't "uber" enough, I'm going to vomit).
the joy CAN be in the journey. as long as that journey is not a grind fest of the same missions over and over and over again. which is exactly what cox was for the longest time (still is for the most part red side, very little under lvl 35 content added since launch). personally, the second, third, fourth time i've seen the same sf/tf, there's no joy left - just grind.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Players matter, but they don't own the game. Unfortunately, most players are in an age range where they'd prefer no challenge at all--they just want to rip up the pavement on their way to terminal level. They don't want the game--they want the end-game.
The joy is in the journey, not the destination. I, for one, think that making the game a challenge (which does not necessarily equate to "grind"), is a good thing. Giving the players immediate gratification is a bad thing (if I have to listen to another teenager complaining about how slow a game is or how they aren't "uber" enough, I'm going to vomit).
the joy CAN be in the journey. as long as that journey is not a grind fest of the same missions over and over and over again. which is exactly what cox was for the longest time (still is for the most part red side, very little under lvl 35 content added since launch). personally, the second, third, fourth time i've seen the same sf/tf, there's no joy left - just grind.
I don't think people are replaying it necessarily for the the mission storylines -- I think there's a diabloesque quality to CoX given the diversity of classes and the truly dynamic grouping capabilities in game (as well as the the PUG-friendly community) which result in new and different experiences.
You don't see a whole lot of people replaying/restarting new characters in <insert popupar mmo here> because there are so few classes and the parties are cookie cutter -- the holy trinity of tank/damage/heal. In CoX, you can find groups of 8 buffers/debuffers or wolfpacks of stalkers/scrappers. Every PUG can be exciting (if you find it to be that way) and fun based on general success or meeting new people. I happen to think CoX is one of the more successful games out there in terms of emphasizing "massive" in the mmorpg genre and actually interacting with a diverse number of people rather than the same handful of people.
In my opinion, this is the success of CoX and I just think there aren't too many people who see it for that (or care for it)...not that there's anything wrong with with that since it is still a vibrant, self-sustainable (profitabl) community/game. ( ' :
That being said, I agree with Thunderous that City of Heroes is a very shallow game. It is actually a shooter not an MMORPG. There never was any intention of putting depth in this game and they made that abondantly clear to us in beta.
CoH was only supposed to be a Nintendo game for PCs. That;s all, nothing more, nothing less. It basically did what it intended.
However, I have to say that the company fell blindly in to some of the best teaming mechanics I have seen in MMORPG-like games. WoW and Pablum Rasa and LotRO teaming options are pathetic by comparison.
Keep the teaming part and build a more in depth character-centric game from that point.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
That being said, I agree with Thunderous that City of Heroes is a very shallow game. It is actually a shooter not an MMORPG. There never was any intention of putting depth in this game and they made that abondantly clear to us in beta.
CoH was only supposed to be a Nintendo game for PCs. That;s all, nothing more, nothing less. It basically did what it intended.
However, I have to say that the company fell blindly in to some of the best teaming mechanics I have seen in MMORPG-like games. WoW and Pablum Rasa and LotRO teaming options are pathetic by comparison.
Keep the teaming part and build a more in depth character-centric game from that point.
so, which games would have more indepth, um, whatever it is you're referring to? (i'm curious).
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Jack isn't working on this game, he's working on Marvel Online.
Okay, so for those of you who came in late, Marvel Universe Online is dead, buried and long since worm-eaten by now. Champions Online IS Cryptic's replacement project.
They decided to make an MMO without any serious MMO experience
In spite of their lack of experience they managed to bring many of the tedious timesinks from other MMORPGs into CoX.
A game with super-travel powers and yet CoX could bore you to tears with missions that wasted your time traveling between zones.
And CoX classes are pulled straight out of fantasy MMORPGs even though those classes have NO place in a superhero genre. How many times do you read the Avengers or Justice League and see someone spamming heals?
Perhaps JE has learned that copying everything in fantasy MMORPGs isn't necessary, but I'm less than enthused about Cryptic doing Champions Online. Champions was a superb pen-and-paper system, I have to wonder if they'll remember to use those great game mechanics in their version.
A game with super-travel powers and yet CoX could bore you to tears with missions that wasted your time traveling between zones.
And still, super-travel powers make travelling in CoX far less endearing than in many other MMOGs. I have yet to find an MMO that keeps my attention while I travel at all, though.
And CoX classes are pulled straight out of fantasy MMORPGs even though those classes have NO place in a superhero genre. How many times do you read the Avengers or Justice League and see someone spamming heals?
A good point, but how many times do you enter a mission and expect to rest for 96 hours to heal those 4 hit points you lost against a mob in any MMO ? There is a time when it comes to making a game that is humanly playable over background realistic.
Perhaps JE has learned that copying everything in fantasy MMORPGs isn't necessary, but I'm less than enthused about Cryptic doing Champions Online. Champions was a superb pen-and-paper system, I have to wonder if they'll remember to use those great game mechanics in their version.
Being irremediably optimistic, I do not doubt, but hope. They said already that they were basing their rules upon this system. Only thing we can hope for is that the transition to something computer-playable won't be too far from the original.
Yes Emmer wasn't/isn't qualified to be in charge of making an MMO. He seems intelligent ,talented, and educated in many reguards, but everything he knows about MMo's he learned from EQ and Marvel RPG. Cookie cutter all the way. Most of the innovations in COH were included before he was ever part of the design team. He seems to be a good manager in the sense of keeping a team on track and not over extending expectations, but he makes poor decisions and has little vision when it comes to game design.
I've subbed to CoX twice--before and after the Big Nerfs. If that nerf had not happened, then the stuff that's in now--inventions--would've made everyone into a superman. Or inventions would not have been worth putting in.
Did they have that in mind when they did the nerfs? I have no idea--but I think those changes made it easier to put inventions in, and inventions are well worth having in the game. There's not a huge, if any, difference in power with someone adequately decked out in invention enhancements and the old enhancements.
Now, as to content and overall design--yeah, the game is shallow. So are all the other MMOs pretty much because they are made as games, not as virtual worlds. There have not been many virtual game worlds published, and most (I'm not sure if I count EVE as one, honestly) are gone now or so changed as to be gone.
So either way, I think blaming him for everything is a bit of a reach. You can blame him for what he didn't do--but, you know, he had a company to run and other people to answer to.
Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.
I rather liked the game design and vision of COH. I'd very much be up for a new world in the same vein.
I don't care about skills vs class.
I don't care about repetativity so much either. When the content is done I will move on as I do in all games.
However, when he nerfs me, I will not return.
also, there is a huge difference in bonuses in someone decked out in set IOs (especially the not-so-hard-to-get rares) vs SOs.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?