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General: Indie MMO Conference: MMOXPGs
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
Last weekend, MMORPG.com's Laura Genender attended the 2008 Indie MMO Developer's Conference. While there, she attended a round table discussion on the impact of players not spending time gaining “experience points” at the expense of experiencing the content
Like many of the industry’s standard geeks, my interest in MMORPGs started with the “RPG”; after a year or two of text-based RPGs I found my way to the website of my first graphical MMORPG. It was this that prompted me to make my first monthly subscription purchase, it was this that started an addiction to expansions and a love of online worlds. I started my MMORPG career as a diehard, cheesy roleplayer.
At some point, though – some point early on in my MMO career – I had the shocking revelation that no one else around me was roleplaying, let alone using three letters to spell the word “you” anymore. I realized that, to my gaming companions, our stats and attack speed mattered more than the fact that these boots had socks and these just showed my bare, shapely knight calves. And like a lemming over a cliff I started to give up the challenge of communicating “I crashed” with an IC attitude – I adopted the standard point of view that we were here in Aden or Norrath or Hyboria to gain XP and beat each other up, not to carry out some big epic fantasy book plotline.
Read it all here.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
He is so right on this matter - even on the 'role playing' servers, not THAT much role playing goes on anymore. In EQ it is an easy place to get all the 'l33t' gear as the flagging os NODROP is removed; in WoW it is just anotehr server - BUT in both cases I have seen some truly GREAT role playing going on, In EQ we played in a great guild by the name 'The Fighting Chefs of Norrath' where in the early days we literaly adventured to gain ingredients to cook with, whether it was Guk ale or Wyrm steaks... In WoW the Scarlet Brotherhood were truly awesome to behold, theirreligious fervour caused all manner of great arguments, but slowly it slipped into personal attacks at the players behind the game and at my last sight of them they were a shadow of their former sleves (I hope you made it back there). On LotRO there is an enforced role play server that seems to be standingup well; but the race to be the first to the highest level will always take priority over the time to kick back and smoke some pipeweed or have a drink watching the sun go down over the bay while the pirates maneuver round the reef to try tp get into port and safety.
I really agree with this well written article: There is no RPG in MMORPG. I guess the one hope is that there are pockets of resistance in all the big MMOs, but it's still relatively small.
In EVE as a Minmatar I'd "roleplay", immediately distrusting any Ammarr slavers and only allowing one into our Clan after he proffessed to being a dissident and joining us in shunning the Ammarr.
In LotR: O my brother and I would travel around as a pair of Dwarven minstrels, playing tunes and singing songs(ok you're gonna have to take that with a grain of salt) at the local taverns, asking others to join and whatnot. We even picked up a few tips, and more than a few beers!
Even in WoW as a dumb ol' Troll, I tried to learn the "language" from what my quest-givers were saying to me and by lvl 10 or so I had "Troll" down pretty well, with that slightly stupid, slightly Cajun wordage.
etc. etc.
I guess it just comes natural to me to get into my character's role in the world or create something different. I think if I just thought of these games as "leveling to get that next awesome loot/level", then I'd probably go insane. Maybe that's why until something comes along that just completely blows the leveling/exp/fetch quest/kill X rats system out of the water, I'll always being somewhat dissapointed in what MMORPGs have to offer.
It might be part of a solution if MMO's implemented filters which are able to remove people from your game completely - which is something that should not be awfully hard to implement...
Based on this idea you could use RP-flags not only to show if somebody is a roleplayer or not - but to filter out all non-rp players out of your game completely. To make this idea work you would need GM's to ensue that the RP-mode isn't overrun by griefers or ooc-players.
Peace
It to me is a sad thing that many game developers build games that nearly by definition require players to do tasks directly required by the game and its creators the player and charactor has no free will.
If asked why a charactor is killing a particular group of goblins they respond "the game told me to"
the player might be sitting in the driver seat on a trip from seattle to new york but its the game developer that selects the route.
take spells and attacks for example there for the most part exactly the same for any given class,, if you mage has a fireball its the EXACT same fireball that every other mage has,, if you swing your weapon all other fighters have the exact same move,, why not have at least some traits that players can build their own moves out of traits they prefer?
the ECONOMY for me is a dead giveaway is the economy combat based or sustenance based? most economies are directly based on the support of combat armor weapons spells than on a more immersive and functioning sustenance economy food drink shelter and to make matters worse they have national auction houses and homoginized resources that every resource is available to everyone which cripples the need for trade.
environments and worlds that ignore biological realities,, you can cross the largest desert and never need a drink! no need to take time and actually prepare for crossing a desert packing water, hiring a druid,ranger, mage to aquire water,,, no need to diviate to oasis on the way
same for cold climates,, swim in a iced over river? no problem run naked through also no problem!
in LORD OF THE RINGS ONLINE right now they added a zone called EVENDIM which had a huge lake right in the middle and Guess what? NO BOATS!!! you might see boats as decorations but none functioning! even the famose BUCKLEBERRY FERRY never moves! and soon (possibly this month) a new chapter is coming out called forinal,,something (ICY BAY) and it also includes no boats but we hear some form of cold weather effects.
the worse thing a GM can do is make it obvious they are controling the charactors and not the players
(example) we were playing a superhero game and spent an entire evening trying to recover a very nasty antimatter pistol,, at the end of the evening no matter how hard we tried it became immpossible to do so. and what REALLY caused the catistrofic destruction was that the GM actually said "sorry guys, that pistol was too good of a plot device and I couldnt let you have it!!!!!" not only did this RUIN our whole evening as a WASTED excersise! it ruined several games after because they became POINTLESS,,
if the gm is going to CONTROL our charactors so much, why do they even need players???
on the flip side if players can never make a difference in a static world, again also pointless.
just look at most MMOs end game all there is to do is RAID or PVP endlessly (this is what hell should be) shouldnt a veteran be a a priest managing a church? or a warrior that is a lord of a castle or a wise wizard? or the ruler of a band of thieves?
think to yourself, when your charactor maxes out, ask yourself, did my charactor make a difference in this world? is the world fundementally the same as when you arived? the painful answer is yes.
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
ah yes, superb discussions, but will they ever lead anywhere? Will we ever have a "simulated" world?
SWG had sort of a "world-simulator" ...... but I don't want to take that topic up again.
LOTRO I would like to see more RPG and less XP. I love the Shire. With my liftime sub I sometimes still can just log on and run around there a bit. But then what? As pointed out above, there are lakes, but no boats. Fishing is supposed to come. A so simple feature that helps for the casual fun and for RP. But no, they had to do session play with chickens. Where are all the other sessions they talked about (except the Troll, but if you don't pvp you don't get that either). Now there is housing. Woopdidue! But ... You have barely any freedom to decorate they way you want. At least EQ2 and SWG have that. Lol, SOE, the MMO company most complained about, and they actually have a decent feature for RPing and no1 really uses it.
That is the other problem, either there is no at all or totally harcore RP nowadays - in the end it takes away the fun as well.
All the other big MMOs coming - AOC, WAR - different approaches to the same theme.....
Oh Indie - where art thou ?
I miss rp quite a bit. It really does add another layer of fun and immersion to the world. Otherwise you're just grinding xp to level.
I think SWG was best for rp, because I knew the story. MMO's that invent their own story are harder, and I'm not one to seek out some fansite and read pages of lore. If I want to read a story, I just pick up a book at Borders. COH had some fun rp too. Occasionally there is some rp in LOTRO.
Roleplayers should love a game like Darkfall (when it comes out)
They (the Dev's) are shotting for a fully open world, which would allow for great RP chances.
Sooner or Later
I would not count on it, open world or not.
Most people do not play MMORPG to RP, they play it for the hack-n-slash. Diablo is a great example of distilling out what is important to gamers ... kill monster in fun ways and get cool loot to power up.
At the end of the day, MMORPGs are just games. Playing another persona takes too much work. It is much easier just to be yourself, make some friends and go kill some ogres.
I would not count on it, open world or not.
Most people do not play MMORPG to RP, they play it for the hack-n-slash. Diablo is a great example of distilling out what is important to gamers ... kill monster in fun ways and get cool loot to power up.
At the end of the day, MMORPGs are just games. Playing another persona takes too much work. It is much easier just to be yourself, make some friends and go kill some ogres.
Hun? Did you even read this thread at all?
This thread is about RP in MMORPG. I stated that Darkfall might be good for people that want an open world to RP in which is what the people on this thread want. They want to make the choices vs the game making the choices. Maybe I am wrong.
Sooner or Later
There is no RP - there is only immersion.
When a game allows you to participate in activities that make logical and consistent sense from an in-character perspective it provides a fertile ground from which roleplay can spring.
It'll still be a minority activity of course, as proper roleplay takes a whole lot of effort (not to mention a fair bit of innate talent) that the majority of gamers simply aren't willing to devote, but it won't be as much of a stretch and players will tend to be more receptive to at least attempting to converse in character.
Case in point - the best roleplay I've seen has been in EVE, a game where most activities are "immersive". Contrast with LOTRO (to pick one) where the vast majority of the time you are participating in activities that make zero logical sense (unless you are operating from the perspective of a sociopath or some kind of insane hunter).
The XP / leveling paradigm festering from the days of pen and paper needs to disappear before immersion can take place, and without immersion roleplay will always be a forced activity in online gaming.
In pen and paper the leveling mechanic was of little importance next to the storyline - it was simply there to assist the DM in creating a reasonable challenge for the players. Too bad leveling has become the main "content feature" in modern MMOs.
So what you are saying jakin, is that to be able to RP there must be some other method of progression other than the traditional XP/LOOT reward system?
Maybe this is where an indie company can really inovate. Unlike larger companies who must rely on the tried and true methods an indie can take risks in this area.
I think you've really hit the nail on the head here.
And I think these words:
"make a world, not a game, we dont want another game"
should be branded onto the forehead of every MMORPG developer until one company finally gets it right. Then they can go back to making new WoW clones /spits in disgust
But that is the point, they are making just a game, they are creating a GAME world.
I agree that a player should be able to affect the world but that is a very very fine line to be able to create. In all honest it is really not worth their time or effort. I would love to see a game were each player advanced the game world good or bad based on there actions and quest choices but then you would have to worry about so many different outcomes that it would be a huge mess to test and maintain.
Look at RL, it is a world that the players (people) can effect in a good way or a bad way. We as the People try and plan for all outcomes, so that when the time comes, we are ready. The problem is no matter how ready we are, there is always something we didnt think of or plan for. Now lets put that in to a game setting. If the Developers cannot plan for every possiable outcome, how could they test the game? How do you even go about creating a game with endless option that are mostly player inputted with out being able to control what the player inputs. If you control the player inputs then again it creates a world that the Developers control not the player.
Does anyone understand what I am typing, lol sometimes I get lost typing. My typeing doesnt keep up with my thinking.
Anyways what I am trying to get it is. If someone made a game were the players could effect the game were would they draw the line that would allow the players to feel as if they made a difference to the game world but not change the game world enough to not allow new players to join without too much catch up and were the developers can still add in more content via a patch or expansion.
If you allow the players to effect the game world how do you add in more content? How do you test how much content a game like that would need? Let alone how do you test a game with limitless outcomes?
Sooner or Later
When I play Vanguard, I still pull out the ol' IC attitude...even if others don't roleplay with me I'll keep right on roleplaying at them. VG is one of my more casual MMOs, though, and when I play EVE or EQ I no longer have patience for RP...which is pretty sad. One of the round tablers brought up the fact that developers spend a lot of time writing out storylines and quests and dialogue, when all we players really do is read the objective and do it ASAP. While this sucks for all the writers in the gaming industry, it's not the fault of the readers; taking time to read through quest text and background story would take time out of our gaming, and time = XP and progression in the MMO. I don't know what the answer to this problem is, but I'd love to see a game where stopping to read the text or listen to the voiceover or watch the cutscene wouldn't be an inconvenience.
Laura "Taera" Genender
Community Manager
MMORPG.com
I never got fully into RP but had fun with many people enjoying themselves doing so. And as far as following the lore of the game it looks like the dev's of TCoS are headed in the direction that players will need to get into the story arc in order to solve quests and discover things. I could be wrong on this but I hope it is something that will happen and make the game more immersive. (if they would ever launch). mostly I miss logging in and getting 20-40 hello's. Seems harder for me to meet the grateful/helpful types in newer games and get into a group that came over from another mmo.
great topic tho as RP does make a difference in regards to personal experience. (i.e.) what the hell. I can quest. 4 hours of sleep is good enough for what I do irl.
Beside a personnal email receive by SOE CS today about a survey on quality of their CS and my satisfaction (it was buggy and not working)...
This thread has to be among the best April's Fool of the day. :P
All it takes to have good roleplaying, it is 2 willing roleplayers. Trying to force everyone into it can't work. :P
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I agree with the article. Developers constantly force players into one particular role thus killing any sort of immersion. UO was fantastically immersive (although very buggy) and Eve is to this day (but is very boring). There is a trade off though. Without guiding players many would be subscribers will get lost, confused, and quit. So you really have to hook them early and show them that anything is possible...but first and foremost anything actually has to be possible...
I might say something a little bit unpopular......
But I think a lot of times what prevents people from rp'ing are the roleplayers themselves. A very elitist attitude can develop amongst many of them. That if someone isn't "roleplaying" exactly as they define roleplaying, they are somehow ruining the game experience.
We had an incident a few nights ago with someone who just joined the gang. I asked him about his economic preferences. He then proceeds to (in roleplay of course!) accuse me of being a greedy ******* and not worth dealing with, because I didn't feel like making a deal in full rp-mode, becausee I was tired.
Me, I RP from time to time, and it can be a lot of fun. I was the elder statesmen of my guild back in SWG days, one who eventually retired and served as a semi-official role in uniting the various Imperial guilds together, first on the planet of Dantooine, then over the other planets. Yet other times I didn't want to do that, and I can sympathize with others who don't.
Great article and it's something that's been on my mind lately. For EQ's 9th anniversary I went back to look, it had been several years since that magical 6 months in 99 where a friend and I discovered Norath together. David and I never even came close to reaching the end game but the memories of our incredible adventures are still with me today. We had wicked fun and it was never about grinding or xp or gear.
It got me thinking about why i don't like mmo's anymore and it's exactly for the reasons listed. So many of them have boiled down the mmo to a horrible grinding xp fest. There is little more than the grind. No one takes the time, much less even cares to experience content aside from the next kill and the next gear upgrade - of course I'm generalizing here but you get the point.
My dream mmo for years has been one without numbers. In addition, no levels and no xp. The question has of course been, how do you take something like that and turn it into a 'fun' experience for everyone? Certainly not an unacheivable goal by any means and I think there are a few games out there.
What would be left? Exploration, discovery, conquest, politics, money, creation, fantastic RP opportunities....plenty of things and no mind numbing grinding. No complex calculations of what the best weapon dps or armor stats are.
I'll keep dreaming.
In my search for something, anything where I could be immersed, I've settled for vanguard for the time being but only in waiting to check out Conan and then War. I believe immersion is a personal choice of course but it often feels like your a leper as the masses swoon around you, zooming by to lvl X.
The point is not the whole game vs. world silly discussion, the MMORPG are games and worlds period, for me the real point is:
Why develop a game world must necessarily lead to a gameplay systen based mainly in xp gain and combat/loot? Why when devs talk about do games and no worlds we know that in reality they are talking about a reduction in gameplay options, removing things how a deep economy, non-trivial crafting, advanced city building and housing, all non-combat activities, the inmersiveness and internal coherence, etc., all replaced for some loot fountain (see Jumpgate "evolution" articles) how a sacrifice in the name of the FUN and playability gods.
RP is a play system and we talk about RPGGAMES, in rpGAMES the game mechanics are all these things I mencioned, not only combat and looting, why the only system for character advancement must be xp gain and combat when do a "simulation" game add options that can enrich gameplay for all players.
I want play to build a house, manage a starbase or create a quest using some SWG storyteller system and that all these things have a sense integrated with the other game mechanics, what is the best: do PvP without sense or fight for defend you own guild base or for a resource point for crafting good weapons or for control a lake where the enemy fishers capture some creature needed for cook a powerful buffing soup, more world type options are more gameplay options and not are detrimental to the general fun.
If a developers want introduce a "capture the flag" mechanic in their game world they can integrate that system in the world not only drop a instance and work ended. We want play in game worlds not in themeparks.
But an obstacle for add RPG content how gameplay options are the own roleplayers, they talk about do worlds but no games and claim for very hardcore mechanics that the average player cannot admit or understand, they must have in mind that MMORPG are both, games and worlds, the key is in the balance.
But the current trend in MMORPG based in xp gain and loot is not balance at all.
An example can be the storyteller thing:
In the SWG storyteller options have a very small success because are only designated for players that want do active RP how a personal option, not are integrated with the whole game, they cant create real quests or useful content for other non-RP players, and non-RP players not are motivated at all for use storyteller props. Storyteller options could be used for guilds for create their own quest with money or item rewards, if a guild or player need some item they can put an NPC offering a reward for that, adding content to the game, but this is negated alegating dangerous -and real- exploits, but how pretend that storyteller can have success if his main use how a tool for create useful content is negated?
The SWG MMOPRG is not designated for support quest creation with rewards, but no other next generation MMORPG serious developer even tried create a similar system working in their games from the begining, perhaps because very few are working with a original IP, and more accurately because all of then are obssesed with the whole "do a game and not a world" thing. They must remember that RPG worlds with real RPG options are GAMES from the begining, removing gameplay options are doing crappy RPGs games or not RPG games at all, and they must know that.
The problem is that there is just as many version or perception of what role play is then there are role players. For me, from the moment i log into my Avatar in whatever games, using whatever name that is not my real name, i am "already" role playing. No need to start talking like a retard in languages that irritate most people because they can't understand jack shit. And why would i loose my time learning it anyway... It's a figment of your bubble mind and i don't give a damn about it. I have my own, and they are much more interesting to live in for me.
Role play works on smale scale, where you can filter all the crowds that enters your game or play field. I don't know of any limits to that, but i'm sure it's impossible to do with hundreds of thousands of players. Therefore, the MMORPG should be re-edited as a brand, and simply be called "persistant world". That would be much more honest and representative of what those games really are.
Creativity : The ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods or interpretations; using originality, progressiveness, or imagination.
I miss RPGs. I guess it goes to the fact that I started out with PnP D&D back before there was an AD&D.
I begin a new game with the idea that I am creating characters that have backgrounds, classes, abilities, stats, etc., not 'toons' with min/max stats that are basically tools for grinding mobs to get shiny rewards. I appreciate lore because it helps create a backstory, which is also why I like questing.
One of the reasons that many people got tired of LOTRO was that they thought that they needed to reach some endgame. The idea that the game is basically an interactive book that one enjoys along the way was lost on them. I have other issues with LOTRO, but I appreciate what they tried to do.
I guess that the confusing part of all of this for me is that sandbox games have less built-in lore/backstory, etc., and yet also don't seem to attract the powergamers that make it hard to be immersed in a world and thereby detract from the story. That seems ironic to me. Is this just my imagination, or is there something to this paradox?
Give players a community job and they can't help but RP.
Look at good old Starwars Galaxies -
Rangers fullfilled a function and while doing that function they were infact Rangers hunting down dragons because a client wanted to kill one. They were hunters collecting animal resources because a crafter needed them.
Merchants spent a lot of time buying and selling goods. If you sent a tell to a merchant asking "what's up?" His/her response was what a merchant would say - something like "i'm reintroducing stock that didn't sell, or I'm seeing what my competitor is selling XXXX for."
Crafters would begin their session by checking their factories then shop for resources or skill tapes.
Doctors would set up for a few hours of healing disease, curing poison, and increasing the general health and fitness of players.
What was the number one thing smugglers wanted? To smuggle - why? Because that's what smugglers are supposed to do it was their role and they wanted to roleplay.
Even people who scoffed at us roleplayers still had their homes decorated just the way they wanted - with all their trophies and quest loot on display. Infact I noticed the more hardcore a player was the more decorated his home was.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I still manage to roleplay, but I'm not hard core about it. I roleplay a bit in Pirate of the Burning Sea, and am a part of a roleplaying guild.
When you roleplayed back in the pen and paper days, did you stay in character 100 percent of the time? You didn't ask your buddy in some gay-assed way to go and get more snack food. Sure, you would roleplay and try to stay in character and such, but I never met anyone that was hardcore about that even back in the day.
So I call what I do rp lite. It seems that people that rp on the internet, some of them anyway, are more hardcore than anyone I ever knew back in the Pen and Paper days. To each his own.
We rp in the society chat, and sometimes in the Nation chat, but do you rp in private chat? Or when you're trying to do some trading?
Then, it's a little easier to rp in a Pirate game, I think, where everybody likes to go "Arr!" and "Aye, matey!"
https://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/Bleakmage