And no matter how "good" a bot is, you can always spot them in-game. Bots next to me get reported every time. If I have to grind, so do you. Play fair or gtfo.
It is amazing how Donnelly tried to play the innocent "gee I didn't know" excuse. Let's see Blizzard says don't use bots, you clicked "I Agree" about not using bots, you start selling said bot code to make money off Blizzard's copyrighted property and then seem surprised when a suit hits you Donnelly if you read this, settle NOW before you make a complete ass of yourself in a court of law.
1. He is not earning the money with Blizzards copyrighted code. 2. The agreement didn't prohibit bots before half a year after mmoglider was made.
DEATH TO ALL BOT USERS; MAY THEY HANG FROM THEIR ********* ON THE TOWN SQUARE, BOUND BY PIANO WIRE, WHILE THE LOCAL POPULACE USES IMPLEMENTS OF TORTURE ON THEIR ROTTING BODIES AND SPIT SPITEFULLY, WHILE CURSING THEIR NAMES FOR ONE HUNDRED GENERATIONS TO COME <gasps for air>. MAY THEY BECOME INFERTILE, RIDDEN WITH CANCEROUS PLAGUE AND STINKING SORES. MAY THEY NEVER PROCREATE AND HAVE SOME GENETICIST MAKE A RETROVIRUS THAT WILL INSTANTLY SEEK OUT AND DESTROY EVERY LAST STRAND OF THEIR DNA, SO THAT THIS MAY BE REMOVED FROM THE TOTALITY OF THE HUMAN GENE POOL FOREVER.
Legal issues aside... The Short Version: DEATH TO ALL BOT USERS! The Long Version: DEATH TO ALL BOT USERS; MAY THEY HANG FROM THEIR ********* ON THE TOWN SQUARE, BOUND BY PIANO WIRE, WHILE THE LOCAL POPULACE USES IMPLEMENTS OF TORTURE ON THEIR ROTTING BODIES AND SPIT SPITEFULLY, WHILE CURSING THEIR NAMES FOR ONE HUNDRED GENERATIONS TO COME <gasps for air>. MAY THEY BECOME INFERTILE, RIDDEN WITH CANCEROUS PLAGUE AND STINKING SORES. MAY THEY NEVER PROCREATE AND HAVE SOME GENETICIST MAKE A RETROVIRUS THAT WILL INSTANTLY SEEK OUT AND DESTROY EVERY LAST STRAND OF THEIR DNA, SO THAT THIS MAY BE REMOVED FROM THE TOTALITY OF THE HUMAN GENE POOL FOREVER. Wow.....that felt really good.
I love you too Now let's see, what profile should I use now? Found one. Lovely, I'll better get back to developing that Customclass while my bot is running. I'm sure you'll meet my bot some day in the BGs getting owned by it (though you won't believe it was a bot).
Legal issues aside... The Short Version: DEATH TO ALL BOT USERS! The Long Version: DEATH TO ALL BOT USERS; MAY THEY HANG FROM THEIR ********* ON THE TOWN SQUARE, BOUND BY PIANO WIRE, WHILE THE LOCAL POPULACE USES IMPLEMENTS OF TORTURE ON THEIR ROTTING BODIES AND SPIT SPITEFULLY, WHILE CURSING THEIR NAMES FOR ONE HUNDRED GENERATIONS TO COME <gasps for air>. MAY THEY BECOME INFERTILE, RIDDEN WITH CANCEROUS PLAGUE AND STINKING SORES. MAY THEY NEVER PROCREATE AND HAVE SOME GENETICIST MAKE A RETROVIRUS THAT WILL INSTANTLY SEEK OUT AND DESTROY EVERY LAST STRAND OF THEIR DNA, SO THAT THIS MAY BE REMOVED FROM THE TOTALITY OF THE HUMAN GENE POOL FOREVER. Wow.....that felt really good.
I love you too Now let's see, what profile should I use now? Found one. Lovely, I'll better get back to developing that Customclass while my bot is running. I'm sure you'll meet my bot some day in the BGs getting owned by it (though you won't believe it was a bot). <3well said :P
Well if the game was plesureable leveling there would be no need to bot
Blizzard is wrong on copyright (and will hopefully have this charge dismissed). Claiming that a copy in RAM on the computer where the game is legally installed violates copyright is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Nobody(except maybe the big corporations) wants Blizzard to win their copyright charge.
If they can find different legal grounds to shut the bot producer down, great. If not, I would much rather see bots in WoW than see copyright expanded in the way Vivendi is trying to (MPAA, and probably others, would love this).
This is the type of suit EFF would normally get involved in.
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Great job, Blizz! And no matter how "good" a bot is, you can always spot them in-game. Bots next to me get reported every time. If I have to grind, so do you. Play fair or gtfo.
That maybe so with glider, not so with the open source bot, much more lifelike. The commercial botters conscider bans an acceptable cost of business and of course it suits blizzard to sell another copy of the game.
I have to laugh at this. A buddy of mine at work decided to get glider. Since he already had 4 Level 70's he decided he wanted to take the easy way and just bot a new toon to 70. Well he bought it, set it all up, logged in and started the glide. Twenty minutes into he got disconnected and banned. All his 70's he actually worked hard for were deleted. After calling Support and begging to have his toons back, they told him to go pound salt and he was sh%t out of luck. So he lost everything over his stupidity. And I don't feel bad at all. All it took was twenty minutes....Blizzard isn't stupid...they are gonna get the cheaters one way or the other.
Your friend is a fool, but you must know that. Gotta smile however.
Blizzard is wrong on copyright (and will hopefully have this charge dismissed). Claiming that a copy in RAM on the computer where the game is legally installed violates copyright is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Nobody(except maybe the big corporations) wants Blizzard to win their copyright charge. If they can find different legal grounds to shut the bot producer down, great. If not, I would much rather see bots in WoW than see copyright expanded in the way Vivendi is trying to (MPAA, and probably others, would love this). This is the type of suit EFF would normally get involved in.
Yup, a point I have made before. It would set a terrible precedent that would allow microsoft to sue numerous competitors. As an off the top of my head example all companies that are producing virtual machine software.
It is amazing how Donnelly tried to play the innocent "gee I didn't know" excuse. Let's see Blizzard says don't use bots, you clicked "I Agree" about not using bots, you start selling said bot code to make money off Blizzard's copyrighted property and then seem surprised when a suit hits you Donnelly if you read this, settle NOW before you make a complete ass of yourself in a court of law.
1. He is not earning the money with Blizzards copyrighted code. 2. The agreement didn't prohibit bots before half a year after mmoglider was made. /equip pants of fire ressistance
Actually he is, if you read the article he is selling his code thus making money off Blizzard's product. Think of it another way, I can make a web comic about WoW and Blizzard can't do anything about it UNLESS I start charging people to view it. It's the same law that allows parody, as a protected First Amendment right. Key point is he was making a buck, which is a big No-No.
What the Agreement did or didn't prohibit in the past is irrelevant. What it prohibits now is what matters. If Blizzard suddenly says "all mods/addons are banned" and you click "I Agree" to play, then you can't use any mods/addons ever again. Wouldn't matter that mods were allowed before if they aren't allowed now. Too often people seem to get stubborn and say if the Agreement doesn't specifically say <this program banned> that they can use it. Sorry folks doesn't work that way. Blizzard has made it well known that botting is prohibited.
GIVE ME A BREAK.......you know how to get your life back? Close your game account...go outside and breathe fresh air. Cend
I thougth this was the point of the bot though, so that you could Be outside and get that fresh air while your computer does your work for you?
Allthough I applaud their efforts I really really doubt this will stick.
There has been many analogies in this thread some good some not so good.
But take the radar detector thingy, wich is legal to sell but not to use.
This is the same thing really, he is not braking any laws, he is probably breaking the EULA and TOS for WOW but that is blizzards law,
The people using it is obviously breaking all their deals with blizz, but again there is no law against that and the people are still getting banned when found.
To use another analogy, distributing cracks for games is not illegal even though cracks do to games pretty much what this bot does, and more probably as you are physically changing the files.
I to fear what will happen to the software market should blizz pull this one trough and even though I think chasing down cheaters is important for any game is not worth the price we will have to pay if they succeed with this one.
Time will tell but I am not going to wish blizz good luck with this one.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To use another analogy, distributing cracks for games is not illegal even though cracks do to games pretty much what this bot does, and more probably as you are physically changing the files.
Yes, but they dont sell their cracks do they? They provide them freely for all to get if needed, and they are. On some points I think the copyright law is too strict. If you buy a product, you should be free to do whatever you want with it, in the privacy of your own home. Same with copy protection. If I buy a game, I want to make backup copys of the cds/dvd, and not muck about with some silly copyprotection, some which are way too intrusive for my tastes *caugh* starforce *caugh*
Thanks to the crack makers I can store my cd's/dvd someplace safe and enjoy the game without the disc in. And I like that Im leaning more and more to online/downloadable games(steam, direct2drive etc) now though. But I'm rambling...gonna stop now.
To use another analogy, distributing cracks for games is not illegal even though cracks do to games pretty much what this bot does, and more probably as you are physically changing the files.
Yes, but they dont sell their cracks do they? They provide them freely for all to get if needed, and they are. On some points I think the copyright law is too strict. If you buy a product, you should be free to do whatever you want with it, in the privacy of your own home. Same with copy protection. If I buy a game, I want to make backup copys of the cds/dvd, and not muck about with some silly copyprotection, some which are way too intrusive for my tastes *caugh* starforce *caugh*
Thanks to the crack makers I can store my cd's/dvd someplace safe and enjoy the game without the disc in. And I like that Im leaning more and more to online/downloadable games(steam, direct2drive etc) now though. But I'm rambling...gonna stop now.
The key point that most fail to realize is that the "cracks" you mention are for a stand alone software product. the software that you load is the product that you pay for, more or less.
Whereas World of Warcraft or any similar MMORPG is a Private Subscription Data Service. The software on your computer is not the product. Your interaction with the providers (Blizzard in this case) data servers and custom databases is the product that you pay for. In this case Blizzard is more closely related to many traditional data services, from hosted mainframes such as IBM and similar provide, to more modern service providors, such as cable TV or satelite services. Or even modern telco agreements.
In ALL of these sorts of agreements the provider has a clear and well defined right to define how the subscribers may access their private servers and manipulate the data therin. Remember a few years back when after a near crash the NYSE put in place rules that limit or cut off automated electronic "bot" trading, in order to manage the integrity of the service. WoWs establishment of and enforcement of bot policies is exactly the same thing.
People look at WoW and think that because it is a "video game" and its on the internet, that this is uncharted territory. They fail to understand exactly what comercial subscription MMORPG's are/ What they actual business and legal model they use is, and exactly how large a body of real set precedence in established case law already exists on the books. Much of it dating as far back as the 1970's.
The key point that most fail to realize is that the "cracks" you mention are for a stand alone software product. the software that you load is the product that you pay for, more or less. Whereas World of Warcraft or any similar MMORPG is a Private Subscription Data Service. The software on your computer is not the product. Your interaction with the providers (Blizzard in this case) data servers and custom databases is the product that you pay for. In this case Blizzard is more closely related to many traditional data services, from hosted mainframes such as IBM and similar provide, to more modern service providors, such as cable TV or satelite services. Or even modern telco agreements. In ALL of these sorts of agreements the provider has a clear and well defined right to define how the subscribers may access their private servers and manipulate the data therin. Remember a few years back when after a near crash the NYSE put in place rules that limit or cut off automated electronic "bot" trading, in order to manage the integrity of the service. WoWs establishment of and enforcement of bot policies is exactly the same thing. People look at WoW and think that because it is a "video game" and its on the internet, that this is uncharted territory. They fail to understand exactly what comercial subscription MMORPG's are/ What they actual business and legal model they use is, and exactly how large a body of real set precedence in established case law already exists on the books. Much of it dating as far back as the 1970's.
The difference with Blizzard and other MMOs from the traditional data services is that Blizzard does not have a written contract with each and every user. I don't think there have ever been any cases that set precedence for if click-through-licensing is enforcible (at least I know there weren't 5-10 years ago and I haven't heard of any since). All of the older cases involving data service providers that I've heard about involved written and signed contracts (and usually very large sums of money to license the service in the first place).
Under contract law, that could make a big difference. No signature on the current version of the license/contract? Maybe not legally binding or enforcible.
This could be part of the reason why Vivendi/Blizzard are trying the copyright angle.
I believe Vivendi also owns (or is a partner in) Universal so I think a bigger reason may be to try using this case to sneak the "copy in RAM violates copyright" argument in (that the MPAA failed to win with in the past). As I said before, nobody should want Vivendi/Blizzard to win their copyright claim. It will set a very, verybad precedent.
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I think the radar detector is not a good analogy. Some states in the U.S. actually ban them, meaning I can't have one shipped to me if I live in that state and if I get pulled over and a cop sees one on the dashboard he will confinscate it. It IS after all a device used to help you break the law.
To me it looks like Blizzard is countering the rationalizing legal mumbo-jumbo that the botters use with legalese of their own.
Indeed this is a case I do not see Blizzard winning. As someone who has used glider in the past, and know exactly what it does, In now way will a judge side in blizzard's favor. Slippery slope indeed this case.
Glider doesn't actually access anything in wow. It works the same way as Ghostmouse works.
You place wow into window mode, and you boot up the glider. You setup a set of keystrokes or mouse clicks inside the glider which match your hot keys in wow, usually specific to each class.
Next you go in game run your character to a remote region, usually predefined in glider and known as "waypoint" locations. These way points are pre-setup and diff. way points can be downloaded and installed for different areas in the game.
Ok once all that is setup, you start the glider program.
This thing works like a piece of plastic warp laid over top of the wow client in window mode. Your computer are making a series of clicks based on what the predefined entries that you setup.
It accesses wow in no way, It just controls your keyboard and mouse, making it possible for you to walk away and watch TV while it does whatever you tell it to do. It will even warn you if the GM's or anyone for that matter teleport you or send you a tell.
The creator is a genius.
Anyway now that we know how glider works, for judges to start ruling what you can and cannot have installed on your computer is complete garbage. WoW discovers that you are using the glider by running a scan on your CPU processes while you are playing. They search for set keywords and .exe files. If wow finds any matches it boots you and bans your account. The program wow uses for this is known as the "warden".
Anyway. Court systems cannot tell you what you can and cannot have installed at your house. Unless it is illegal like kiddie porn. Then they can and will come arrest you.
It will be a sad day indeed when I hear, "WoW Glider" is now illegal to have installed on home PC's and FBI will prosecute.
The Glider can be used for anything that requires keyclicks. The guys has every right to sell a program he built and marketed himself. Last I checked this was America. Corporate giants have no right to step on this man for being smarter than the entire blizzard staff.
He took something and ran with it. They tried to stop him and couldn't. Then when they couldn't stop him they decided to try to use their power, money and influence to snuff him out.
Yep that is the American way, step on anyone trying to make a living for themself so they themselves get richer....
Well neonaka, you just defined in a very lengthy way, what a bot program is and does. Thanks.
Course Blizzard has said botting is illegal and bannable, you agreed to that when you clicked "I Agree" so I have no sympathy for you when you're account gets banned.
Btw, a friend of mine used that same program. Blizzard banned his account and he lost his T3 hunter in the process. He was upset but was under no llusions that what he was doing was A-Ok, more upset that he got caught mostly.
So using your logic, I can write a 3rd party program that doesn't work inside program but in the background that steals your account password via keystrokes and that is perfectly fine since it isn't actually running inside your game client? You seriously believe that? Never heard of the terms spyware, malware, trojan, etc? They are perfectly fine according to your logic after all.
First off IMO wow blows, I quit that game ages ago. I also believe nothing is wrong with people creating tools to make others lives easier. Your examples do not apply as they ARE illegal (stealing passwords which eventually lead to identity theft). There is a huge line drawn in the sand between the malicious hacker viruses you just described, who's sole purpose is to destroy anything it touches, or steal personal information from another.
Tho I will say I admire the intelligence of the hackers that pull off these feats.... takes a damn smart person to create them.
However, 3rd party programs that allow you to walk away from your computer and still do certain task hurts noone.
If someone wants to sit in front of their screen 12 hours a day like a zombie button masher and get level 40 in a day, or if someone boots up glider and get to the same level in the same amount of time, EXCEPT they didn't have to sit there and waste their life, they were off doing other constructive things at the same time.
You tell me who is smarter, the guy leveling like a tool wasting half their life in a pc chair?
OR
The guy who is out planting a garden watching his kids play while his character is doing the same leveling as the tool.
I know who I vote for.
Thing is these programs have been around since the start of MMO's
EQ had them, DAoC has them and still has them, you know what scratch the list all games have them.
They aren't going away, and even if blizzard wins this little scuffle, more will be made in it's place.
Well neonaka, you just defined in a very lengthy way, what a bot program is and does. Thanks. Course Blizzard has said botting is illegal and bannable, you agreed to that when you clicked "I Agree" so I have no sympathy for you when you're account gets banned. Btw, a friend of mine used that same program. Blizzard banned his account and he lost his T3 hunter in the process. He was upset but was under no llusions that what he was doing was A-Ok, more upset that he got caught mostly. So using your logic, I can write a 3rd party program that doesn't work inside program but in the background that steals your account password via keystrokes and that is perfectly fine since it isn't actually running inside your game client? You seriously believe that? Never heard of the terms spyware, malware, trojan, etc? They are perfectly fine according to your logic after all.
Sorry, your argument doesn't make any sense.
Yes, the Blizzard agreement says you can't use bots. That's perfectly fine and they have every right to ban people they find using bots.
However, Blizzard has (and should have) no right to tell someone that they can't create and sell a program that does not rely on any Blizzard code (from my understanding, Glider can be run on a computer without WoW installed (it just wouldn't be very useful)). The use Glider is put to has no relevance on Vivendi/Blizzard claims under copyright.
My guess is that this case is really about Vivendi (major stakeholder (owner?) of one of the movie studios (Universal?) I believe) trying to get the "in-memory access is a copy and thus illegal" in through a different backdoor. The MPAA already failed to get that through a different case. Nobody (except the MPAA and maybe a few other major copyright holders) should want Vivendi/Blizzard to win this case on their copyright claims.
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So using your logic, I can write a 3rd party program that doesn't work inside program but in the background that steals your account password via keystrokes and that is perfectly fine since it isn't actually running inside your game client? You seriously believe that? Never heard of the terms spyware, malware, trojan, etc? They are perfectly fine according to your logic after all.
Your grasp of logic is tenuous at best. You embarrass yourself with such inane vacuous comments I'm afraid. Exactly what does glider steal?
Well neonaka, you just defined in a very lengthy way, what a bot program is and does. Thanks. Course Blizzard has said botting is illegal and bannable, you agreed to that when you clicked "I Agree" so I have no sympathy for you when you're account gets banned. Btw, a friend of mine used that same program. Blizzard banned his account and he lost his T3 hunter in the process. He was upset but was under no llusions that what he was doing was A-Ok, more upset that he got caught mostly. So using your logic, I can write a 3rd party program that doesn't work inside program but in the background that steals your account password via keystrokes and that is perfectly fine since it isn't actually running inside your game client? You seriously believe that? Never heard of the terms spyware, malware, trojan, etc? They are perfectly fine according to your logic after all.
Glider doesn't have any Malware or Trojan in there. The owner has his own accounts, what does he need someone elses for. Merc made an awesome program, it's too bad that WoW is losing steam now that AoC and WHO is coming out. I foresee WoW ending up like EQ here by Christmas and this scuffle between Merc and Blizz will be a thing of the past. But keep in mind that there will always be botting programs.
Glider, out of all the 3rd party programs i've tested happens to be the best one. It's not a cheat, exploit or hack. Again, it is merely a smart button masher, nothing more and nothing less. You do gooders can stop Q_Qing over Glider now. Again, Glider does no more than push buttons. It is not a password stealer, It is not a speed hack or a teleporter. Again, it is a Smart button Masher.
Sure, it's a 3rd party program, but there are other programs that ride on the gray line of obscurity. Hence, WoW Ace Updater could be considered a 3rd party program that would be unacceptable. It allows you to download helpful and informative tools to help you raid bosses and warn you of the bosses motives. To me, that is cheating more-so than Glider.
Well first off, I could say what is the point of buying a game, subscribing to said game only to not actually PLAY the game? You set up your botting program and go to work to come back 10 levels higher? Uh, what's the point of that? If you lack patience play Guild Wars you can make a lvl 20 right off the bat and start a-whacking people in pvp.
The second issue is that "it doesn't hurt anyone" attitude. When devs design say a resource, they make the nodes spawn at a certain rate and have X amount of resources based off the assumption that a player will take some but eventually move on. Botting means the resource is farmed 100% and is essentially useless to me. The bot has forced me to look elsewhere. Sure I've spent sometimes an hour or 2 farming a specific resource, but I've only done that occasionally not everyday 24/7 like can be done with botting programs.
If you feel that the game is "wasting" your life then I am baffled as to why you are paying to play it in the first place. Logoff and go see the kids in the garden, take em to the movie. That's great, is what people should do. Yet, to say the game is wasting my time yet I need to level ASAP seems contradictory. You hate the game, but have to level. It's a waste of time yet you have to keep it running as much as possible. Umm... huh?
If blizzard wins this "scuffle" it can have an affect on botters. It's one thing to just get your account banned but to get fined or possible criminal charges filed against you is another thing.
I've said it before and will say again. People who bot or use "hax" will always rationalize that what they are doing is A-Ok because the game "makes" them do it since it is "broken". Digital Denial at it's finest.
Comments
Great job, Blizz!
And no matter how "good" a bot is, you can always spot them in-game. Bots next to me get reported every time. If I have to grind, so do you. Play fair or gtfo.
We are watching here the slow death of a company.. trying to sue programers in an effort to get some public attention.
Sad really.
Off topic, but what the heck is a ludomaniac???
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
1. He is not earning the money with Blizzards copyrighted code.
2. The agreement didn't prohibit bots before half a year after mmoglider was made.
/equip pants of fire ressistance
Legal issues aside...
The Short Version:
DEATH TO ALL BOT USERS!
The Long Version:
DEATH TO ALL BOT USERS; MAY THEY HANG FROM THEIR ********* ON THE TOWN SQUARE, BOUND BY PIANO WIRE, WHILE THE LOCAL POPULACE USES IMPLEMENTS OF TORTURE ON THEIR ROTTING BODIES AND SPIT SPITEFULLY, WHILE CURSING THEIR NAMES FOR ONE HUNDRED GENERATIONS TO COME <gasps for air>. MAY THEY BECOME INFERTILE, RIDDEN WITH CANCEROUS PLAGUE AND STINKING SORES. MAY THEY NEVER PROCREATE AND HAVE SOME GENETICIST MAKE A RETROVIRUS THAT WILL INSTANTLY SEEK OUT AND DESTROY EVERY LAST STRAND OF THEIR DNA, SO THAT THIS MAY BE REMOVED FROM THE TOTALITY OF THE HUMAN GENE POOL FOREVER.
Wow.....that felt really good.
I love you too
Well if the game was plesureable leveling there would be no need to bot
Blizzard is wrong on copyright (and will hopefully have this charge dismissed). Claiming that a copy in RAM on the computer where the game is legally installed violates copyright is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Nobody (except maybe the big corporations) wants Blizzard to win their copyright charge.
If they can find different legal grounds to shut the bot producer down, great. If not, I would much rather see bots in WoW than see copyright expanded in the way Vivendi is trying to (MPAA, and probably others, would love this).
This is the type of suit EFF would normally get involved in.
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That maybe so with glider, not so with the open source bot, much more lifelike. The commercial botters conscider bans an acceptable cost of business and of course it suits blizzard to sell another copy of the game.
Your friend is a fool, but you must know that. Gotta smile however.
Yup, a point I have made before. It would set a terrible precedent that would allow microsoft to sue numerous competitors. As an off the top of my head example all companies that are producing virtual machine software.
1. He is not earning the money with Blizzards copyrighted code. 2. The agreement didn't prohibit bots before half a year after mmoglider was made. /equip pants of fire ressistanceActually he is, if you read the article he is selling his code thus making money off Blizzard's product. Think of it another way, I can make a web comic about WoW and Blizzard can't do anything about it UNLESS I start charging people to view it. It's the same law that allows parody, as a protected First Amendment right. Key point is he was making a buck, which is a big No-No.
What the Agreement did or didn't prohibit in the past is irrelevant. What it prohibits now is what matters. If Blizzard suddenly says "all mods/addons are banned" and you click "I Agree" to play, then you can't use any mods/addons ever again. Wouldn't matter that mods were allowed before if they aren't allowed now. Too often people seem to get stubborn and say if the Agreement doesn't specifically say <this program banned> that they can use it. Sorry folks doesn't work that way. Blizzard has made it well known that botting is prohibited.
I thougth this was the point of the bot though, so that you could Be outside and get that fresh air while your computer does your work for you?
Allthough I applaud their efforts I really really doubt this will stick.
There has been many analogies in this thread some good some not so good.
But take the radar detector thingy, wich is legal to sell but not to use.
This is the same thing really, he is not braking any laws, he is probably breaking the EULA and TOS for WOW but that is blizzards law,
The people using it is obviously breaking all their deals with blizz, but again there is no law against that and the people are still getting banned when found.
To use another analogy, distributing cracks for games is not illegal even though cracks do to games pretty much what this bot does, and more probably as you are physically changing the files.
I to fear what will happen to the software market should blizz pull this one trough and even though I think chasing down cheaters is important for any game is not worth the price we will have to pay if they succeed with this one.
Time will tell but I am not going to wish blizz good luck with this one.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Yes, but they dont sell their cracks do they? They provide them freely for all to get if needed, and they are. On some points I think the copyright law is too strict. If you buy a product, you should be free to do whatever you want with it, in the privacy of your own home. Same with copy protection. If I buy a game, I want to make backup copys of the cds/dvd, and not muck about with some silly copyprotection, some which are way too intrusive for my tastes *caugh* starforce *caugh*
Thanks to the crack makers I can store my cd's/dvd someplace safe and enjoy the game without the disc in. And I like that
Im leaning more and more to online/downloadable games(steam, direct2drive etc) now though. But I'm rambling...gonna stop now.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
about time
Yes, but they dont sell their cracks do they? They provide them freely for all to get if needed, and they are. On some points I think the copyright law is too strict. If you buy a product, you should be free to do whatever you want with it, in the privacy of your own home. Same with copy protection. If I buy a game, I want to make backup copys of the cds/dvd, and not muck about with some silly copyprotection, some which are way too intrusive for my tastes *caugh* starforce *caugh*
Thanks to the crack makers I can store my cd's/dvd someplace safe and enjoy the game without the disc in. And I like that
Im leaning more and more to online/downloadable games(steam, direct2drive etc) now though. But I'm rambling...gonna stop now.
The key point that most fail to realize is that the "cracks" you mention are for a stand alone software product. the software that you load is the product that you pay for, more or less.
Whereas World of Warcraft or any similar MMORPG is a Private Subscription Data Service. The software on your computer is not the product. Your interaction with the providers (Blizzard in this case) data servers and custom databases is the product that you pay for. In this case Blizzard is more closely related to many traditional data services, from hosted mainframes such as IBM and similar provide, to more modern service providors, such as cable TV or satelite services. Or even modern telco agreements.
In ALL of these sorts of agreements the provider has a clear and well defined right to define how the subscribers may access their private servers and manipulate the data therin. Remember a few years back when after a near crash the NYSE put in place rules that limit or cut off automated electronic "bot" trading, in order to manage the integrity of the service. WoWs establishment of and enforcement of bot policies is exactly the same thing.
People look at WoW and think that because it is a "video game" and its on the internet, that this is uncharted territory. They fail to understand exactly what comercial subscription MMORPG's are/ What they actual business and legal model they use is, and exactly how large a body of real set precedence in established case law already exists on the books. Much of it dating as far back as the 1970's.
The difference with Blizzard and other MMOs from the traditional data services is that Blizzard does not have a written contract with each and every user. I don't think there have ever been any cases that set precedence for if click-through-licensing is enforcible (at least I know there weren't 5-10 years ago and I haven't heard of any since). All of the older cases involving data service providers that I've heard about involved written and signed contracts (and usually very large sums of money to license the service in the first place).
Under contract law, that could make a big difference. No signature on the current version of the license/contract? Maybe not legally binding or enforcible.
This could be part of the reason why Vivendi/Blizzard are trying the copyright angle.
I believe Vivendi also owns (or is a partner in) Universal so I think a bigger reason may be to try using this case to sneak the "copy in RAM violates copyright" argument in (that the MPAA failed to win with in the past). As I said before, nobody should want Vivendi/Blizzard to win their copyright claim. It will set a very, very bad precedent.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
I think the radar detector is not a good analogy. Some states in the U.S. actually ban them, meaning I can't have one shipped to me if I live in that state and if I get pulled over and a cop sees one on the dashboard he will confinscate it. It IS after all a device used to help you break the law.
To me it looks like Blizzard is countering the rationalizing legal mumbo-jumbo that the botters use with legalese of their own.
Indeed this is a case I do not see Blizzard winning. As someone who has used glider in the past, and know exactly what it does, In now way will a judge side in blizzard's favor. Slippery slope indeed this case.
Glider doesn't actually access anything in wow. It works the same way as Ghostmouse works.
You place wow into window mode, and you boot up the glider. You setup a set of keystrokes or mouse clicks inside the glider which match your hot keys in wow, usually specific to each class.
Next you go in game run your character to a remote region, usually predefined in glider and known as "waypoint" locations. These way points are pre-setup and diff. way points can be downloaded and installed for different areas in the game.
Ok once all that is setup, you start the glider program.
This thing works like a piece of plastic warp laid over top of the wow client in window mode. Your computer are making a series of clicks based on what the predefined entries that you setup.
It accesses wow in no way, It just controls your keyboard and mouse, making it possible for you to walk away and watch TV while it does whatever you tell it to do. It will even warn you if the GM's or anyone for that matter teleport you or send you a tell.
The creator is a genius.
Anyway now that we know how glider works, for judges to start ruling what you can and cannot have installed on your computer is complete garbage. WoW discovers that you are using the glider by running a scan on your CPU processes while you are playing. They search for set keywords and .exe files. If wow finds any matches it boots you and bans your account. The program wow uses for this is known as the "warden".
Anyway. Court systems cannot tell you what you can and cannot have installed at your house. Unless it is illegal like kiddie porn. Then they can and will come arrest you.
It will be a sad day indeed when I hear, "WoW Glider" is now illegal to have installed on home PC's and FBI will prosecute.
The Glider can be used for anything that requires keyclicks. The guys has every right to sell a program he built and marketed himself. Last I checked this was America. Corporate giants have no right to step on this man for being smarter than the entire blizzard staff.
He took something and ran with it. They tried to stop him and couldn't. Then when they couldn't stop him they decided to try to use their power, money and influence to snuff him out.
Yep that is the American way, step on anyone trying to make a living for themself so they themselves get richer....
Well neonaka, you just defined in a very lengthy way, what a bot program is and does. Thanks.
Course Blizzard has said botting is illegal and bannable, you agreed to that when you clicked "I Agree" so I have no sympathy for you when you're account gets banned.
Btw, a friend of mine used that same program. Blizzard banned his account and he lost his T3 hunter in the process. He was upset but was under no llusions that what he was doing was A-Ok, more upset that he got caught mostly.
So using your logic, I can write a 3rd party program that doesn't work inside program but in the background that steals your account password via keystrokes and that is perfectly fine since it isn't actually running inside your game client? You seriously believe that? Never heard of the terms spyware, malware, trojan, etc? They are perfectly fine according to your logic after all.
First off IMO wow blows, I quit that game ages ago. I also believe nothing is wrong with people creating tools to make others lives easier. Your examples do not apply as they ARE illegal (stealing passwords which eventually lead to identity theft). There is a huge line drawn in the sand between the malicious hacker viruses you just described, who's sole purpose is to destroy anything it touches, or steal personal information from another.
Tho I will say I admire the intelligence of the hackers that pull off these feats.... takes a damn smart person to create them.
However, 3rd party programs that allow you to walk away from your computer and still do certain task hurts noone.
If someone wants to sit in front of their screen 12 hours a day like a zombie button masher and get level 40 in a day, or if someone boots up glider and get to the same level in the same amount of time, EXCEPT they didn't have to sit there and waste their life, they were off doing other constructive things at the same time.
You tell me who is smarter, the guy leveling like a tool wasting half their life in a pc chair?
OR
The guy who is out planting a garden watching his kids play while his character is doing the same leveling as the tool.
I know who I vote for.
Thing is these programs have been around since the start of MMO's
EQ had them, DAoC has them and still has them, you know what scratch the list all games have them.
They aren't going away, and even if blizzard wins this little scuffle, more will be made in it's place.
Yes, the Blizzard agreement says you can't use bots. That's perfectly fine and they have every right to ban people they find using bots.
However, Blizzard has (and should have) no right to tell someone that they can't create and sell a program that does not rely on any Blizzard code (from my understanding, Glider can be run on a computer without WoW installed (it just wouldn't be very useful)). The use Glider is put to has no relevance on Vivendi/Blizzard claims under copyright.
My guess is that this case is really about Vivendi (major stakeholder (owner?) of one of the movie studios (Universal?) I believe) trying to get the "in-memory access is a copy and thus illegal" in through a different backdoor. The MPAA already failed to get that through a different case. Nobody (except the MPAA and maybe a few other major copyright holders) should want Vivendi/Blizzard to win this case on their copyright claims.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
Your grasp of logic is tenuous at best. You embarrass yourself with such inane vacuous comments I'm afraid. Exactly what does glider steal?
Glider, out of all the 3rd party programs i've tested happens to be the best one. It's not a cheat, exploit or hack. Again, it is merely a smart button masher, nothing more and nothing less. You do gooders can stop Q_Qing over Glider now. Again, Glider does no more than push buttons. It is not a password stealer, It is not a speed hack or a teleporter. Again, it is a Smart button Masher.
Sure, it's a 3rd party program, but there are other programs that ride on the gray line of obscurity. Hence, WoW Ace Updater could be considered a 3rd party program that would be unacceptable. It allows you to download helpful and informative tools to help you raid bosses and warn you of the bosses motives. To me, that is cheating more-so than Glider.
Well first off, I could say what is the point of buying a game, subscribing to said game only to not actually PLAY the game? You set up your botting program and go to work to come back 10 levels higher? Uh, what's the point of that? If you lack patience play Guild Wars you can make a lvl 20 right off the bat and start a-whacking people in pvp.
The second issue is that "it doesn't hurt anyone" attitude. When devs design say a resource, they make the nodes spawn at a certain rate and have X amount of resources based off the assumption that a player will take some but eventually move on. Botting means the resource is farmed 100% and is essentially useless to me. The bot has forced me to look elsewhere. Sure I've spent sometimes an hour or 2 farming a specific resource, but I've only done that occasionally not everyday 24/7 like can be done with botting programs.
If you feel that the game is "wasting" your life then I am baffled as to why you are paying to play it in the first place. Logoff and go see the kids in the garden, take em to the movie. That's great, is what people should do. Yet, to say the game is wasting my time yet I need to level ASAP seems contradictory. You hate the game, but have to level. It's a waste of time yet you have to keep it running as much as possible. Umm... huh?
If blizzard wins this "scuffle" it can have an affect on botters. It's one thing to just get your account banned but to get fined or possible criminal charges filed against you is another thing.
I've said it before and will say again. People who bot or use "hax" will always rationalize that what they are doing is A-Ok because the game "makes" them do it since it is "broken". Digital Denial at it's finest.