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PlaneShift devs, you deserve a medal!
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I actually had an amused chuckle instead of being irritated at one of your posts. It takes a lot of work to become part of the Planeshift team. No one is given a possition they did not earn. If we went by your standards of 'not good enough', there would not be anyone on the team at all, and PS would be vaporware.
You want the honest truth? Only those with strong personalities and dedication stay long in Planeshift. They often do have big egos. There is a lot of head butting at times (not constantly). Tempers will sometimes flare. In the end, things are created for the better. Such is the scene when you get so many creative minds in one place. The dynamic is what makes PlaneShift move forward. Will these strong personalities clash with players at times? Of course. The current Settings leader was a hellraiser as a player, and put quite a bug in the Dev's ears. If the Devs had been humble in response, I very much doupt if he would be Settings leader.
Some players, such as yourself, have issues with these strong personalities, and for some reason think they should be meager and humble. That is not going to happen, and I would dismay the day it did. That would be the day Planeshift started to fade.
The Devs of PS are proud of what they have done, and they should be. Look around on the net. Try to find a single successful MMO project out there that is trying to do what Planeshift is. Strong personalities make a strong team. Stong personalities also tend to roll over others, but they will stand their ground. A weak Dev team will let players second guess them all the time, and get flattened in the proccess. GMs who are not tough or thick-skinned will get rolled over by players who do not respect them. Such is the way of things.
Despite what -you- think, the project is moving forward, and it will survive. The Dev team is too strong to allow otherwise. Some players will be lost along the way, but more will always come. The cycle of players is no diferent than other games.
I am not ignoring the message in your posts. It is simply wrong.
This is my final post on the subject. You can respond, but again, it is pointless. PlaneShift is not made by backseat drivers. You want changes, you will have to get out of the kiddy seat and grab the wheel.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
Meager? No. Humble? More humble than they're being. Taking the guy you're talking about as an example, he tells WTB members that humility is very important if they want to become a dev. His definition of humility though means accepting criticism from your superiors with an open ear. What's ironic is that he and others are unable to hear criticism when it comes from people they see as beneath them, mainly the players. If you want evidence for this just look through his posts on the official forum.
You seem to think that treating others fairly is a sign of weakness. Is this whole mission based on your fear of appearing vulnerable?
Again, you are distorting things. What's not good enough is how certain individuals treat the players. I was not saying that the content of Planeshift isn't good enough (although there are things that need to be improved on that front as well!).
Ah yes, the "R" word.
Someone who has to feel big and important by throwing his weight around is not strong. He is weak, insecure, transparent, and a liability to anything he is associated with.
The fact that you think such behaviour is acceptable is disturbing and pathetic.
And yet, I am on the team, and a well known respected member of the community, and you are nothing. Your definition of 'fair' is the disturbing thing here. Grow up and welcome to the real world.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
If this is a Dev vs Player conversation taking place here on the boards... 1v1... I'd say take it to private messages or whatever.
It would be nice if the SOE Dev's would hop on the boards and get into an open debate like this with their players, though.
...
I don't know if this was player calling Dev 'nothing' or Dev telling player 'you are nothing', but either way... this thing lost logic and entered the realm of emotion. No point is going to get through on either side.
Agreed, BlackWatch.
In the meantime, the PlaneShift project will continue to move forward. Some people will like it. Some people will not. Such is life. Try to please everyone at once, and in the end you please no one.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
Yes, I read the thread today explaining how the departure of you and Xillix was an april fool's day joke in poor taste. To quote you...
"Honestly, do you think Xillix would really leave when there are all these fresh n00bs to eat?"
Very nice.
The real world is exactly what I've been trying to tell you about. We all know that the devs have dictatorial powers within their own sphere, but you make the bed you sleep in.
In one shape or another. But the developers are scaring away and alienating potential contributers while giving the project a bad name. Plus there's the whole issue of listening to your testers and being open to negative feedback.
You continue to amuse me. The phrase "grasping at straws" comes to mind. "Nice."? From someone like you, I'll take it as a compliment. We'll eat humble pie the day we actually need people like you around. Until then, have fun.
I grant you the right to have the last word here, as you will have it nowhere that actually matters. We reserve that right for good folks who actually contribute something. Who? Well, here is bit of a list: hydlaa.com/smf/index.php
Perhaps you are on it, but I have my doubts.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
Yes, I read the thread today explaining how the departure of you and Xillix was an april fool's day joke in poor taste. To quote you...
"Honestly, do you think Xillix would really leave when there are all these fresh n00bs to eat?"
Very nice.
________________________________________I'm sorry if that's all you got out of what people have posted. I think your response puts your sincerity in question, but I guess it doesn't matter at this point.
Don't get me wrong. I love the concept of the Planeshift project, I appreciate the hard work that volunteers have put into it, and I think the team has accomplished great things given the resources available. But the complaints people have, and the improvements that people wish to see, these are all valid concerns and suggestions. I am very concerned with the attitude of certain individuals. Negative feedback is banned, criticism is punished, and ballanced reviews are dismissed reflexively. I'm very concerned with a culture where spitting on testers and players is considered necessary to survival and authority. I'm very concerned with the lack of leadership shown when it comes to managing the dev team and taking care of the needs of its members as well as the Planeshift community. When Xillix faked leaving the PS community, I thought it was serious and I wasn't even surprised by it given all I've seen happen. I was disappointed when I got to the part where Xillix blamed his departure on players saying bad things about the game, but that part only reinforces the concerns I and others have with regards to the attitude certain devs exhibit. Xillix preaches humility and teamwork, but what we see is arrogance and school-yard bullying. It's a real problem, it's a prevalent one, it's one that many people agree is real, and it's a problem that has the potential to kill the project.
Do you really have nothing better to do than wine and complain and trash things? Do you have one nice thing to say about PS? Have you ever tried to look on the bright side of things? I don't know maybe I was just brought up that way and thats why it usually takes a lot to upset or piss me off, but I am a happy cheerful person for it
When you have a problem or an issue with someone I find it helps to go directly to that specific person, find out the truth solve the issue, cut out the crap in between. In the end everyone around you much happier and can go on living their lives.
Aeri
"Whoever is happy will make others happy too. He who has courage and faith will never perish in misery."
-Anne Frank
In fact I've been saying many good things about PS all along. It's just that I say good things and bad things instead of all good things, so I've come under attack, as have many others.
oh, my bad..ignore that
I accept your apology.
hydlaa.com/smf/index.php
Would you perhaps like a glass of water to wash the taste of your foot out of your mouth?
Edit- For anyone who is not ps(lies)truth, click that link and read a bit. Then I advise you to gauge what you read there against what ps(lies)truth has been saying, and decide for yourselve's where he put his foot, as well as his head. Maybe he belives what he says, but that just makes it all the more sad.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
My foot isn't in my mouth. What I said was correct.
Edit: Read Talad's posts on this forum - or at least the ones he hasn't already deleted. Ditto for UTMoon and others. They've done a wonderful job of making my case for me.
Talad, though a great guy and developer, is not the best at PR. He gets offended quickly and usually reacts poorly and often out of line. He doesn't have a particularly strong grasp of English and that doesn't help.
Tuxide has yet to have a post that is any worse than some of yours. Same with UTmoon, though he tolerates you less and calls you out on things.
And me? Well... I'm just a player.
I agree that Tuxide's posts are generally tamer than Talad's or UTmoon's. I think UTmoon thinks he looks good if he attacks people who he considers to be enemies of the game. I think Talad, like you say, just doesn't know any better, even though he's a good guy at heart. This is why I'm saying the culture of the Planeshift project is corrosive and self-damaging. It makes good people go bad.
I haven't noticed any of their posts being deleted actually but, I've not been here long enough.
And I'm not exactly sure what your points are. UTmoon linked you to the forums which contain very few flames at all and show many players complaining and the reasonable discussions that go on afterward. Any "joo suxxors" are usually flamed then locked but, every forum will have such threads.
If your point is that Devs should be nicer to players... well, they really have no need to be. The Devs are constantly the most mature people on the forums even though there is no reason to expect that of them (being volunteers and what not).
If it is that the PS forums and IRC channel are a flame house. Then no, you may visit the IRC channel or look around the forums and you will see you are wrong. The IRC channel does tend to degrade but then, so do most :P
I do not fully believe that you want to help the community improve (I can't remember your exact phrasing) but, I don't exact put it aside as false either. Either way, if you are, you are not going about it the right way.
I concur with pstruth, if PlaneShift is promoting incivility then there is something wrong here. I don't think any of us should tolerate incivility from anyone, and there is no reason anyone needs to be encouraging it either. Unfortunately, if PlaneShift has been promoting incivility, then I don't have the time I need to really do anything about it right now. Maybe after the current semester is over, then I will have more time.
Nurahk, I actually linked myself to the forums in my initial review. But we've all seen the problems I and others have talked about. Things have been much better lately because I think the devs have become much more PR savy and image-aware. Generally speaking. Others are still catching up on the memo. I think that's a good sign. But there's still this underlying attitude that anyone who speaks ill of the game is an enemy of the project, the dev team, and the player community. That just isn't so.
Tuxide, one problem is that individuals who I speak of will hear you and, thinking they understand you, respond "Yes, yes, we must solve the problem! The problem is those who say bad things about the game, the solution is to silence them! Once we silence them, they will no longer be able to cause problems!", missing the point that it's the response to criticism that is the problem and not criticism itself. So you have your work cut out for you.
You are seriously going to stick to your guns and not back down one bit on "Negative feedback is banned, criticism is punished, and ballanced reviews are dismissed reflexively..." when there is an entire forum proving you blatently wrong?
The Complaint Forum- "In order to keep the more general information boards more informative and on-topic, we have created a special forum just for complaining. We would like complaints about features, changes in features, game play style, artwork, website, dev team unresponsiveness, how things aren't the way they used to be, how newbies are ruining the game for the oldbies, etc. to all be directed here. Forum moderators are directed to move threads on these subjects from other boards to this one. We will try to remain quite lenient about what is posted here. But no personal attacks and keep it on the topic of PS. "10 reasons why PS sucks" is fair game, but "I'm a victim of " is not."
Individual threads:
Almost no weapons anymore at Trasoks and others: Probably the worst idea ever Some Negative Feedback. A lot of criticism. A ballanced review. Open for comment. Devs have responded. No flames.
boooring! Negative Feedback. Criticism. Open for comment. Devs have responded. No flames.
stopping planeshiftNegative Feedback. Criticism. Open for comment. Devs have responded. No flames.
Be kind to Newbies One directly talking about one of your main issues. No flames or rudeness from the Devs or Mods. Cold and direct answers from a Mod, yes. But you are not companining about them being cold and direct.
Some more proving you wrong:
well I'm level 5 now and have a few complaints...
I really want to like this game but...
A few that say Devs make mistakes once in a while:
I'm whiny? One that supports your claims of a Dev acting with poor judgemnet out of the hundreds that don't. Note that the thread is not locked, modified, deleted, a discussion took place, and the offending comment has been removed from the tracker. That thread alone proves you wrong on all three counts.
Confusling Another that proves you blatently wrong that negative feedback is banned. Also note the responses from the other Devs, which are very helpful.
Everyone is entitled to moments of irritation and bad judgement. It is not a widespread problem in the PS Devs. Those are a few threads out of hundreds where it does not happen. To expect things like that to never happen is naive. The utopia you are asking for does not exist. Can the folks of PlaneShift be nicer? Some of them, yes. Can some of them be grumpy or rude at times? Yes. Will this change? Not while there are passionate people working hard at something they love doing.
So, let's reevaluate.
"Negative feedback is banned"- based on the above threads.... blatently wrong.
"criticism is punished" - based on the above threads... blatently wrong.
"ballanced reviews are dismissed reflexively" - based on the above threads... blatently wrong.
I note that these are just a small selection, but they represent the greater content of the forum, as well as IRC in that the Devs, GMs, and Mods are generally courteous and helpful. If you believe what you are saying, you are obviously ill informed or have some sort of issues.
I asked folks on IRC if anyone thought your above statements are true. Only one person said they are "a little true". On that note, I will say dogs are dangerous creatures that will tear your face off, no one should have them as pets, and they should be destroyed. This is also a little true.
<modedit>
-mod removed the opinion that pstruth is not being truthful to the point of outright lies. I guess it is OK for him to call us fanbois and slander the Devs based on his opinion, but not OK for me to say he is a liar after linking directly to pages that prove that he is, in fact, lying.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
My opinion about #planeshift stays the same . By your own report, some people do recognize there's a problem.
As far as Verr's thread goes, he wasn't complaining about a single dev. He said there were a handful of devs involved.
As far as the complaint forum goes, all you have to do is read through the responses people get and you'll smell the stink in the air. "We're working on it" is fine, but quite often responses are insulting or condescending. Instead of being thanked, players end up feeling like their opinions are unwanted and unwelcomed. I don't expect anyone to take my word for it. The posts are there for anyone to read.
Are devs always snotty, unhelpful, and vindictive? Of course not. But you're playing things down severely.
I just recently posted in the complaint department making a new thread about one of my concerns (not with this nick however) and I got friendly helpful and well thought out responses that made sense to me, which was really all I was asking for, was more of an explaination, no one was rude or mean to me.
Just my two tria there
I'm off to bed now.
pstruth, Moon provided direct links to threads to support his argument. I am wondering where yours are? Clearly not everything is removed, for you yourself state "the posts are there for anyone to read." Perhaps instead of being vague and general, you can start backing up your claims with examples.
I am here and willing to listen, and make changes if they are within my power. All you have to do is take advantage of it and follow through with my request - that way we're not floundering in What's-He-Talking-About land.
How absurd I find it that my April Fools joke should be taken out of context and used as proof of Pstruth's bizarre claims about the comportment of the PlaneShift Development team.
Disparaging remarks have been directed against my person also. Yet they are left to stand.
Remember this vital fact good readers: While the developers of PlaneShift are human and can have emotional reaction to the way certain things are phrased on the forums or irc, the player-base of PlaneShift is assured daily that the developers are at least reading their complaints.
We take action on all we can in as reasonable a time frame as our budget (zero) allows. We hold polling to have players help us choose which of the planned features the players want most or first. We actually interact with our community, is this sometimes a mixed bag? Yes. Do the positives outweigh the negatives? Yes.
Go and see how long it takes you to get a response from a lead developer at Blizzard, or Crytek. Or go one further and speak about them and their games in the fashion Pstruth speaks of PlaneShift and see if they will respond at all, and if they do, how nice it is.
It occurs to me that this pstruth person spends a great deal of energy disparaging PlaneShift, one must wonder, what is the source of such bitterness, such bile?
Ask yourselves if you were volunteering for 10 or more hours a day, would you want to spend a good portion of it listening to this brand of "critique" Would you want to be called all manner of negative names or be treated as if you are a mean-spirited cruel power-abusing dictator because you said "No" to some shoddy player request?
There seems to be some lack of perspective and inability to see from a developer's perspective at all. Whomever this pstruth person is he/she/it seems to have countless hours to snipe at the game. I am really curious as to where so much dedication to negative posting about the game, or endless argumentation with anyone who says postive things about the game or its developers/mods/gms comes from.
Alas.