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The game is failing, but not for any reasons stated here
Annekynn
Member Posts: 1,437
Trolls on these forums for the longest time said SOE would be the downfall of the game. You were wrong. SOE has nothing to do with this games problems. FLS is the downfall of this game.
Most beta testers that ive spoken with, myself included, agree that beta was more fun than retail. Transitioning from beta to retail really crippled this game. FLS made some major blunders:
1) Nerfing money drops by 10x from beta to retail, even though they admitted money was only 2x higher than intended in beta. The result was that while one had to do minimal amounts of grinding for cash in beta, come retail you had to grind effectively 10x more. This made any purchases with such money exponentially more valuable. The result was, as FLS admitted, avoiding PvP made more economic sense than participating in it. Any PvP game that encourages you NOT to PvP is plain stupid and broke.
2) In beta if you died in PvP near a port, your death counted for double than an equivalent level npc. However come retail, FLS either intentionally or accidentally broke this such that one death could knock off (or put on) as much as 1000 points on that port (or 10x what it should have). This forced people to essentially tell all newbs to stay clear of the zones as their deaths would greatly benefit the enemy. Who wants to play a PvP game where you're told not to PvP? This problem was fixed eventually, but not in the first 30 days. Any PvP game that encourages you NOT to PvP is plain stupid and broke.
3) Economic flipping of ports. Didnt exist in beta. Was added just before retail and as such it didnt get any testing. Bugs in the system (that prevail even to this day) allowed one nation to fully flip an enemy port without doing ANY pvp at all. I tried this once, it was fun, but it was also extremely lame as it completely circumvented the PvP aspect of the game. The game simply made it much easier and faster to flip ports economically than through regular means. Any PvP game that encourages you NOT to PvP is plain stupid and broke.
4) Limiting PvP to 6 on 6. Back in beta the limit was much higher (12 or 16 I think per side). This allowed large skirmishes to take place. They were often unplanned, uncoordinated and FUN. Everyone brought whatever ship they had, and if you were outnumbered you could call in reinforcements (provided they were close by and within 60 seconds of sailing). However come open beta the number of participants per side was nerfed, and then for retail was nerfed some more till it was settled at 6 on 6 (max group size). This meant that while in a 10 on 10 encounter if you lost one ship it wasnt a big deal, in a 6 on 6 encounter each ship is considerably more valuable. Any losses immediately give the opposing side a significant advantage. This then forced any sensible group to form battle lines and perform line tactics each and every time. No more "ok everyone, shoot something!". Now it was all about forcing everyone to be on Vent or TS, forcing everyone to focus fire on the same target, forcing everyone to shield for cover and all that. Fun every now and then yes, but do it each and every time and it becomes very repetitive and stressful. In a 10 on 10 or 12 on 12 engagement, if one person made a mistake, whatever, shit happens. In a 6 on 6 if one person makes a mistake, the frustration level goes up through the roof. The end result of all this was that newbs were once again told to stay out of the zones, and guilds had to create "flagship" groups of only the best players to assure (or help assure) victory over the enemy "flagship" groups. Any PvP game that encourages you NOT to PvP is plain stupid and broke.
So, there you have it. SOE had nothing to do with it. FLS just lost it come retail. Three months later the results of all this are obviously apparent: most people have quit the game, myself amongst them.
Comments
I played at the very end of beta, so did not really know the difference between beta and retail. However there were many people who said the same thing you just did shortly after retail. Did you not see the difference then? If you did why didn't speak up earlier? All I've seen from you on this board if blind faith. If all the fans would speak up instead of blindly following the devs off a cliff things might get changed for the better. Serious, fanbois (for lack of a better term) need to understand they do not help games. Companys (any company) need feedback on what they are doing. FLS is now getting it, but apparently it is in the form of lost subs.
in beta no one was allowed there is an NDA in place beta testers tend to be there to test and most testers never play a released game. Most people speak up but if you look he actualy played past release plus you kinda want to see which end is up before you start putting something down that might improve in a reasonable amount of time. At this point I dont think its a reasonable amount of time to wait and pay a monthly fee. I also assume like many that people are blamnig the game makers not the host of the game, but then I'm kinda like that. I put the blame where it belongs and am pretty good at seeing clearly no matter what. People who hate SOE just to hate it well I have been through what they did. For awhile I didn't play any soe games but I still bought their Television sets hehe. Others cope with things differently. Some will never forget or forgive so they tend to just flame everything. I dont put much credebiility in that kind of stuff. Also posts like the original one posted are not new its just hit turn
anyhow for me this ship has sunk (no pun intended) and i'm moving on. POTBS has not succeeded in keeping me as a customer and I think I have lurked enough. maybe one day things will change and I will get a surprise but likely not this year. It is the only game I deleted my characters in though.. that says a lot right there.
In short he waited until he was sure it was safe to say this kind of stuff. I did too I played for quite some time before I dumped it all kit and caboodle but it was still there. However you get to know devs and want to provide some support so you try to uh be patient. Eventualy there is a point in every individuals own life where they decide when to say what needs to be said and not before. he's not the first one that suddenly went from loving it to hating it. Its usally and attempt to support developers and human beings you resect because there are decent people in those offices and you respect them as individuals. So it takes a bit of a conscious decision to put their hard work down
I and many vocal members in my guild bitched about all the problems endlessly on the FLS forums. We got flamed for it left right and center. Infact my guild got a reputation for whining on the forums about everything and anything. FLS doesnt care. I am by no means a blind fanboy. The game was very good in beta and got nerfed/broke FOR retail, things that we simply werent given time to test, and other problems that became apparent only after we all bought the game.
For my sanity, i'm going to do the short, short version:
1) Yes, FLS is responsible for the poor design.
2) The issues you point out are true, but are only the yip of the iceberg
3) The issues are not easily fixed.
4) A LARGE majority of the posters on the potbs forums here are actually having an intelligent discussion about the game. They are NOT the "SOE hater trolls" you so snarkily dismiss with your thread title.
5) SOE screwed up the marketing and distribution of the game. Thats all they were hired to do, and they did it POORLY. If you really followed the game as you suggested, then you know about this, and I don't need to rehash all the examples.
6) Trying to assess all the blame on one company or another is silly, and does a diservice to the gaming public. Both companies in question here failed to do their job....blame them accordingly.
Hopefully we can now return to our regularly scheduled proramming.
Let me take a guess... Lords of the Burning Sea? There was no bigger whiner than Judge Red and his gang.
Fair enough Annekynn. I was just going by what i see off here, but if you were providing feedback on their forums thats about all you can do. BTW...did you, or anyone else for that matter, ever hear why they changed things between beta and retail? Seems like a drastic change to make without testing it.
SOE isn't the reason this game might fail, but they sure did just about all they could do to speed it along that course.
From messing up the marketing, distribution, login, patching and billing through station pass SOE made almost every aspect they managed a serious problem for many people who wanted to play this game.
On top of that simply having SOE associated with the alienated a segment of the market right off the top.
SOE isn't directly responsible for the games ultimate fate, but they sure are responsible for screwing up almost everything they did touch and starting the game off with a bad footing. That certainly didn't help the game any.
Not that ive ever read.
Not a single person in my guild quit because of SOE that I know of. Im sure SOE could have done better with marketing, but we all played the game just fine with or without SOE's efforts.
Of course the people who would not buy the game due to SOE ties would not be in your guild. Or those who canceled pre orders, couldn't subscribe or digital download, those who never heard of it due to lackluster marketing, those selling the game at major distributors not having the game to sell or even listed in their computers (pre order, etc).
No one can say for certain what the costs where in terms of subscribers, because there really isn't a metric to point to. The things SOE did they sure messed up and that did not help the game at all. They were supposed to be the marketing and distribution experts that FLS was relying on.
It is hard to entice customers to come back a check out a game after it has gone through some changes after launch if they never tried the game in the first place right?
Assuming everything you said is correct, and lets say the game had 2x the number of people than it did, that doesnt change the fact that FLS screwed up big time and that having 2x the subscribers probably would have resulted in that many more people being unhappy and quitting. Had FLS not screwed up, the the game would have seen much better retention rates, and its population would have kept growing and not declining.
FLS pooched the game design big time, and did not listen to the playerbase during beta.
$OE pooched the distribution/billing/acct setup/activation code. The game was not available in many areas until a month after launch. All of that stuff is well documented in older threads. Problems will activation, billing and the rest.
That having been said, this game has gone down the toilet because it was fundamentally weak in many design elements. That is on FLS. What $OE did, did not help matters.....
I put the blame the failure of Pirates of the BS at about 90%/10%, FLS/$OE.
I can say for myself and many others whom I've spoken with that the reason that we've never tried this game is because of SOE's involvement.
Well, to be sure, msot of the people didn't say it was SOE fault 100% but association certainly didn't help.
That being said, if OP is/was one of LBS members, I will say that you were right in your prognosis. I didn't really approve of the way soem of the posts were made but you were dead on. There was a guy called I think "Bligh" who correctly predicted how RvR/PvP woudl develop.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. As the saying goes, garbage in garbage out. Not that I am saying the game is complete garbage, but there are design problems at the core of the game.
However, if using your figures, SOE didn't mess up the launch and the game did sell 2x the numbers it has now: There wouldn't already be threads about population issues for months which has a ripple effect on subscribers. Also assuming the ratio of people quitting was the same (and everything else) then they would be merging 11 servers into 8 instead of 11 servers into 4 like they are now.
It won't be long until SOE buys the game out and merges it on their station pass lineup permanently, unless FLS does well elsewhere in the world. I don't think they are using SOE for distribution there.
6) Pirates don't pay a single doublon for their ships, so most of nationals avoid fighting against pirates, then as you said "Any PvP game that encourages you NOT to PvP is plain stupid and broke."
Whatever
The title of SOE has caused some potential sales to be lost. As you have said that all members of your guild didn't care of SOE, I can name myself and my friends for not purchasing due to SOE making a profit on our dollars. So don't rule out SOE completely.
FLS could have gone completely independent, which in hindsight would seem to have just the same results as with going with SOE, but with less expenses and hassles.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
You are probably right, more people are needed per server for game to function at all but servers cannot handle the needed numbers even if they were there.
That being said can you imagine 5 - 10k of players hammered into a fishbowl of POTBS world trying to play with borked economy, flawed PvP and boring PvE?
just as a small note, its now 30 seconds, not 60. Rusty said that increasing the time would gaurentee PvP would be too much your 6 on 6 battles.... meh.
I still think it was a bad move for FLS. They were promoting a vast economy. What game had a vast economy back in the day? SWG. A lot of SWG refugees were looking forward to this game, I know I was (and I still enjoy this game more or less speaking.) Yet hiring SOE to be anyway associated this game alienated people who could've been a very core base of this game.
This is not about all the people who couldnt be bothered to play a video game because they dont like who the publisher is. This is about all the people who play or played the game and got a sour experience because of what the DEVELOPER did.
As an swg vet and then refugee as well I looked to the game like others as a replacement to SWG. I didn't leave just because they ended up with sony I left because of what FLS did not what the guy who printed the disks and make the box did. The cold hard truth is that the core of the guild that i was in was in fact all SWG vets who did not play this game not because of SWG but because of FLS in the long run. The game didn't have enough to it to keep me interested and what it did have was frought with problems that got larger and larger after release and snowballed into a big huge mess. When the big huge mess got to much after a couple of months and the game became essentially unplayable I left. So if the game had been decent word of mouth would have brought friends in etc instead of me leaving and saying dont bother. I play games where there is well not such a linear goal. I thought the economy would make it not so linear but that simply did not happen. There are promises of housing and other things in the future however they are introducing right now skirmish systems which will further contribue to the lack of an MMORPG feel and not really put anything relevant into the game as far as expanding the world. One thing that is a fact about most SWG refugees we do have one thing in common and that is that we want a dynamic game with a community that is able to interact and have the feel of making a life of some sort. Its just not there and along with the experiences of player harassment I got and griefing that was happening to others inside the game that I started to become aware of and was starting to see I was about to fall victim to myself it was apparent that not only was that community feel NOT there that the game itself was deteriorating.
I still keep an eye on it and hope that it recovers however the realist in me sees this not happening as of yet. This game has been out for like 3 months now. They are still working on initial issues that existed in beta of population and server numbers. The only new bits I have seen are the skirmish system which dont realy add anything to the game and BEY'S retreat which likely should have been there at launch.
I see no real progress on making the pvp part truly playable and i have not seen the other half of the equation of economy and PVE to be truly playable or engaging at this time.
So this game is right now just a game for people who want to do one thing and one thing only which is shoot each other while in instances. That's it. I'm sorry but I enjoyed port battles and even the occassional instance of shooting each other however that's not much of a game and there is only so much one can do with that without boredom setting in. When this game truly becomes and MMORPG which it is not right now then it may if its not to late attract a more stable body of players who are going to stick withthe game for years. That is not happening now. The turnover rate is stilll very high. I have maybe only a few examples of people who are staying and expanding and they are all of one class the naval officer. They do one thing pvp and those people only do it maybe once or twice a week usually on a friday and saturday evening and the rest of the time they are not online because there is NO reason for them to be online.
That's not really worth a monthly subscription fee. It might survive as part of the station pass because you can login sink each other and an hour later logout and go play another game. Right now though this game is only a passtime which doesn't even fill an evening when its rainy or snowy and i can't get out for whatever reason and there is nothing good on tv. So for many its not really worth the trouble or effort because well quite franky it gets borring very very fast.
SOE in part is the reason this game is failing. It never had the visibility that it needed to be launched successfully. I would never have heard of the game, had I not been playing EQ2 at the time. I was in the open-beta for about 3 days before the game was taken down and made ready for retail. I liked it, but the fact that you didnt get that many clothing options from quest rewards, and the ones you did get, were either bugged, or didnt look any different than the last one you got.
SOE turns everything to dust, whether or not they developed it.
SOE is absolutely part of the problem: