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Should SCAMMING be a thing of the past?
Jimlee
Member Posts: 12
The real question behind this post is: Do you think scamming and the
ability to scam should be eliminated from MMORGs?
I was reading a series of posts yesterday listing various scams people had
pulled, and I was slowly getting more and more irate as I thought of all
the effort that had gone into earning the money that these scams had parted
from their unwitting victims. I started to think it would be great if only
all scams or scammers could be eliminated from MMORGS.. but then I started
thinking about the other side of the argument too.
1. Many of us play MMORGS in order to interact with people. This means
interacting in a reasonably free manner, without the feeling that there is
an oppresive regime hanging over every action.
2. (and I admit that I've stolen this from the Matrix and other sources).
Wouldn't we perhaps feel a bit odd, or bored if EVERYONE in our little
universe that we chose to be in were totally trustworthy, dependable, and
honest?
3. If we as humans are going to learn about human nature, including it's
darker side, then what better place to do so, in the relative protection of
a MMORG, where the worst that can happen is that we read some hurtful text
on a computer screen, or lose some of our credits. I know these things are
not pleasant, but getting scammed in RL has many more serious consequences.
4. Honesty, trust and loyalty, when it does happen is so much more
satisfying to behold when there was also a darker path that could have been
chosen.
So I'm not talking about playing dark characters fighting for the forces of
evil.. I'm talking about lying, and scamming people out of their money.
I've never done it myself, and don't think I ever would, but I'd be
interested in knowing people's views on whether it's something that we
should attempt to eliminate, or alternatively accept as part of our
alternative free world, perhaps with the usual tools and safeguards in there to protect the wary.
Jimlee
Achiever 66%
Socializer 66%
Explorer 40%
Killer 26%
Comments
See, the major problem with scamming is this: In an MMORPG, you're PAYING to use the software. If a scammer is diffusing the joy you get from playing said game, they are basically stealing your monthly payment, or the reason you pay monthly for the game. That's theft. it's illegal. It should be stopped. Not to mention people who get scammed persistently often end up cancelling subscriptions. Taking out 1 scammer versus 20 people leaving for being relentlessly scammed...you do the math.
AHH! Run away from the monster! He's going to eat us!
Socializer 80% Explorer 73% Achiever 33% Killer 13%
Killer 100% Socializer 40% Explorer 33% Achiever 27%
Personally I hate Scamming. BUT i feel that it should not be up to the GM's of a game to get rid of it or to ban those doing it.
In a game it should be up to other players to warn others about scamming. Take for instance this example from Ragnarok Online. When it was back in beta and I'm sure it still happens. Before they put the weapon upgrades in. People were saying they would do upgrades. I knew it was a scam and lots of others did too... what other players did was shout around about him being a scammer to warn others which was very good.. However there was always a person who still tried and Lost their money/item. should it be the GM's responsibility to help that person out???? NO!!! THEY WERE THE IDIOT WHO GOT SUCKERED!! In real life we see scams everyday on tv commecials... But if we have some brains we don't buy into it... Now if someone bought into it should the government then enforce them to STOP IT??? NO!! You were dumb!
Thats how I feel about scams... let em go on, and let all the players know who's scamming and what they are trying to scam.
MMORPGs are a buisness. If they start losing paying customers then they must crackdown on scammers. It is up to each MMORPG company how they choose to deal with scammers. Issue warnings, temporary bannings, permenate bannings, etc...
Most MMORPGs in their rules sections state they do NOT condone scammers. If you do not like this, if you think they should allow scammers, you will have to make your own MMORPG. It is their money, their customer base they have to look out for. They would rather lose you, and a few players who want to allow scammers, than lose even more players who dislike scammers.
Most scamming works against players who are looking to get over. "A fool is born every minute" the saying goes. Just like in real life, scam artists easiest victims are people who are also looking for a quick, easy buck. Other people also looking to scam. "Buyer beware" as the saying goes. The thing in MMORPGs is players can be ANY age. It might be a 28yr old scamming a 9 year old in a MMORPG, even though both their characters look like He-Man, or Pamela Anderson. (Though IMHO female players do not overtly try to scam as much as male players.) In real life, you will never see a 28 yr old trying to scam a 9yr old out of money, things, armor, gold, loot, cloths, food, a house, a ship, etc...
In game, younger players do not have the life experience to deal with scamers. Some will say then it is nice they play a MMORPG and learn from the experience. The key word though is LEARN. Most will just cancel their account.
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
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http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
Scammers are lower than pond scum.
But scammers will be around as long as there are people who are willing to be scammed. It doesn't matter whether the scammed are naive or just idiots. Most of the time they can not be scammed without their permission.
The wary and worldwise do not need protection from scammers. The wary and worldwise can spot a scam before the first sentence is out of the scammers mouth.
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Wu Name? Misunderstood Menace
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
Thomas Jefferson
Thanks for your posts guys.. I didn't want to bias the post from the start by giving my opinion straight away, but I've got to say that I agree with the stop scammers votes and posts. I agree that it's virtual theft, and when it's stealing gold etc that someone has paid money and spent time to accumulate, then it all gets pretty serious. If people lose what they've fought and worked hard for, then they'll soon be a disenchantment with the whole system, and subsriptions will be lost. I posted the alternative viewpoints as I thought they were logical and should be discussed, but I think overall they are outweighed by the general negative sentiments that scams bring.
So call me an evil authoritarian, but I'm all for ejecting scammers with little mercy, and if they want they can all get together and scam each other in their own little MMORG if that takes their fancy.
So, here's a vote for introducing as much architecture into MMORGs as possible to make scamming as difficult as possible.. and maybe introducing a section on MMORG.com on possible scams on each game, so that we can all be warned and know what to look for (and how to report it).
Jimlee
Achiever 66%
Socializer 66%
Explorer 40%
Killer 26%
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
hmm.. I don't think it can ever be completely eliminated, as has already been said.. the human mind is an incredibly creative thing, and they'll always be a new scam for a new situation. But there are a few things that could really take a step in the right direction, if the will was there.
1. Increase measures to track events.. for example, if someone was reported to the GMs for scamming, then place a recorder on that person so that future scams will be recorded and proof obtained.
2. Be stricter with caught scammers.. You wouldn't wish to be too severe for a first minor offence, otherwise the whole experience suddenly seems more like a police state.. but perhaps it's feasible to ask for fewer "lives" for the small time scammers, and perm bans for those people who've really been responsible for serious rip offs.
3. I'm not sure whether this is a good idea or not, but perhaps a dedicated forum for each game, in which people can report scams and things like that.. so that regular techniques (and perhaps culprits) can become common knowledge.. This could go in one of two directions, either it would be a great tool to stop any scam working more than once, or more likely, it would become a scammers bible.. which would inform the scammers, who would learn of its location, rather than the newbie's who would actually benefit from it.
So I guess I haven't really got any cast-iron answers to that one, but if there's strong feeling in the community that there's too much scamming done, and not enough deterents, then developers should get to hear about it and perhaps some of the above ideas could be tried to various extents.
Jimlee
Achiever 66%
Socializer 66%
Explorer 40%
Killer 26%
Achiever 66%
Socializer 66%
Explorer 40%
Killer 26%
Alot of efforts are being coded in mmorpg to prevent scamming. And still, all those effort is not able to stop scamming. Imo, the addition of hard-line approach of 3 strike and your banned would make alot of the anti-scamming design much simpler. It is quite easy to confirm a scam with the logs. An effective threat of being banned will almost eliminate all scamming.
Alot of ppl are disgusted with EVE because of its weak anti-scamming design, and EVE's rampant scamming community. Newbies are easy target for scams, and blaming newbies for their stupidity is just wrong. Newbies are trying to learn the game, and differentiating scam from not are sometimes impossible for a newbie.
Another thing I hate, and so I will add to this post is what I call "Scam Jokes". A newbie asking a question will sometimes be given an answer that could cause bad experiences for the newbie (eg, death, suicide, xp lost, item lost).
A hard-line approach to scammers is also a good newbie protection. This is an in-game protection, as well as a protection to keep the newbie playing and paying.
I'd like the punishment to fit the crime. Banning somebody for scamming is like the death penalty for theft in real life. Why not put them into a virtual jail for a week?
I totally agree that before scamming can be pursued, there need to be better tools for monitoring all the chat that has happened. Otherwise it gets too easy for somebody to claim somebody else scammed him, even if in reality there was no scam.
Maybe there is a problem with the game and it's community that makes scamming possible.
Let's say for instance, I and a few buddies in a game have a guild and we see a noob and decide to take advantage. We split in two groups and one group approaches the n00b and ask him if he wants to go on a quest with us. SO we set out and get away from the town and prying eyes, and lead him into a trap. We act like we are trying to protect him from the band of cutthroats that has jumped us who are in fact our buddies. They make sure they don't hit us and we make sure they can get to the noob and kill him. Then they take all of his stuff and we meet up and split the loot. We see him again and tell him that was just bad luck but schmooze him and tell him how great he did and that we see promise in his abilities. We ofer him a better weapon if he will tag along with us on another quest and again we are jumped and he is killed. Of course we get our weapon back and all the other goodies he has.
Pretty soon he is disgusted because maybe this is not the only guild doing this to him. Finally he quits and looks for another game.
This what I like about WWIIOL which may be light on RPG but has a great community. You never see anything like the above. What you see is a guy in the game with green tag and private for rank and peoplelike me immediately chat him up and offer to teach them the game. We also get them to joi our squad and get on Team Speak because it makes it tons easier to teach by voice than totext everything.
The new guys vreally appreciate this since WWIIOL is the hardest shooter around and there is so much to learn. You die alot because it is so realistic. One shot and you are dead. Just like in real life. No getting hit 50 times and grabbing a power up pack or med pack.
So in effect, there really is role playing. You must have good leaders and you have to put yourself in the mindset tht you are a real soldier on the battlefield. If you do that you act more realistic and live longer.
To give you an example I checked in to the game and some of the guys in my squad, along with some blue tags, were trying to take down a forward base that the Germans had set up. They were basically disorganized and going in all piecemeal and getting shot up.
I took a large group of our guys and we set out on foot instead of by truck and moved out well to the side of the Forward Base before moving in towards it. Long before we were in sight of the FB I had my guys go prone and crawl. It takes longer to crawl but it is safer because you are lessliely to be seen. We crawled to within feet of the objectives we need to blow up to take it down and I gave out last minute responsibilities. When we were set we all crawled through the cover so we could see the Germans scattered around their FB and I called for everyone to open fire on their targets. The place litterally went from peaceful to a roaring warzone in the blink of an eye. We took the Krauts by surprise and slaughtered them and then blew up the objectives and the Forward base was no more.
My guys loved it and try to do this type of thing more often.
WWIIOL is like any other game, the role playing is up to you to make happen. Just like the guy who didn't put his knife in hand when I asked them too and he accidentally fired his rifle. Luckily we were far enough away and an aircraft overhead had the FB defenders distracted at that moment. Still the RPG element was very real at that moment when we all turne dtowards him and he quetly said "Sorry" over TS. The tension was unreal as we crawled to the target and there was a sense of comfort at seeing you fellow soldiers crawling all around you.
This is what makes a game fun, teaching the game to new guys, not scamming them.
Scamming only ruins the game for everyone. What's the fun in taking candy from a baby?
Scamming ingame can take various forms.
There are those that play the quick switch scam.
Hey I'll trade you these Magical Jellybeans for your cow?
Sure lets trade (Open trade window)
Here take a look at the Magical Jellybeans in the trade window.
(Magical Jellybeans, Effect: Grow Beanstalk)
Great let me find my cow here in my inventory
Magical Jellybeans switched out for regular (or even sugarfree Jellybeans)
There's my cow in the inventory. I just clicked trade....
etc etc. I'm sure you see where I'm going.
I'm a BIG proponent of harsh punishments for gamers that break the rules. I played one game a long while ago ( I don't remmeber the name) where the game Devs or admin would actually do a serverwide announcement that "Soandso has just been caught cheating/scamming so please be careful in your dealing's with him" The player would then be marked (an asterisk by the name of all the characters on that players account) They did that once. If he did it again he was banned.
I would usually see this happen once maybe twice per day and only in cases where the scamming or cheating was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I wish I could remember the name of the game but 2 weeks into testing it I was restationed by the military for 6 months and forgot all about it.
Saddens me to think there are places out there that people brag about this stuff. I play these games how I live my life. I try to be decent and help others. When I see folks cheating and scamming it just shows me what they are like deep down inside. But give someone a mask (Internet Anonimity) and their true colors show.
By right-clicking on the scammer and selecting the option for 'report scammer' the GM's will theen monitor his recent text logs and if he has or has tried to scam then he will be booted off the game and have his IP banned. There should be 'report as bot/griefer etc etc' and GM's should monitor logs of the last actions/words of these people and warn/ban them.
It is not impossible or even hard to ban scammers if there is a team of GM's willing to actually look and respond to complaints.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
By right-clicking on the scammer and selecting the option for 'report scammer' the GM's will theen monitor his recent text logs and if he has or has tried to scam then he will be booted off the game and have his IP banned. There should be 'report as bot/griefer etc etc' and GM's should monitor logs of the last actions/words of these people and warn/ban them.
Right clicking on the scammer? So you are saying you could right click any person in a game and report them as a scammer....?? Boy you would have a real mess of a game then wouldn't you? Everybody randomly right clicking other chars and reporting them as scammers. Soon the true scammers would get lost all the false scam reports and this option would make no difference...and prossibly make a new problem for the honest players.
The simple truth is you will never eleminate scammers in any game. Scammers often run with a 2nd account, or it is a group of players that do this.
Here is how it works: I scam you for all your money. Then I quickly transfer money to a friend who gets a small share. Next he dumps it into his bank, house whatever. I log on with my primary account, which contains upstanding friendly chars. Buddy drops that money off to me and voila! I have your money it's been moved around to a few different accounts in a matter of minutes. My secondary account may get banned, big deal...cause I still have all your money. After a week I make up a new secondary account under another name and go right back to it.
That is just one way that scammers work it...but there are many other ways that scammers work in games. Some aren't that clever, while others are more clever.
It would be next to impossible for any game company to keep up with daily scams that happen in every game to some degree.
There is always one simple saying that has held true for generations....'If it's too good to be true, then it problibly is'
*A game does not rule all other games...espcially if it hasn't been released yet.*
*A game does not rule all other games...espcially if it hasn't been released yet.*
GW Alpha Member
Legion of Exile
I'm not just not anti-scamming, I am pro-scamming. Dcamming adds a level of insecurity that people must take heed to, which gives a bit more flavor to the game. Trust noone but yourself, but watch yourself as well. Those who watch their backs meet Death from the front.
Agnar's Fury
Join at http://www.guilduniverse.com/af
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======= SIGNATURE =========
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
-------------------
http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
-----------
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
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http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
I think an effective(and fun) punishment for scammers would be to add a "Convicted Scammer" tag to every character on their account that will wear off after 24 hours of playing time, for each character.
Try doing a trade with that hanging over your head-literally.
Dont tell me this doesnt look fun to you!!! (book scam: copyright 2004)
Scamming is what kept me playing UO for an extra 6 months. I like being hunted and hated! Its a playstyle that i think we should be free to play.
I have thought about this a bit longer and I think players with less than 6 months should be free from scamming. Their tag should have an icon to show that they are new and scamming them should carry serious reprocussions.
However players with 6 months or more should be considered Veterans and should not be free from scamming. However tha game should have coding that allows players to band together and hunt scammers down. basically if they are in game and you ask the right questions of the right people, you get leads as to where the person is at. maybe even be able to track and monitor the person and steal his stuff when he is not guarding it and or is offline.
There should also be ways of posting wanted posters around the game world. Maybe designated billboards for posting them and they only stay there for so long.
If the creators did this right, the game could be much more immersive and rewarding as in effect you are adding a PvP content.
It would probably not be perfect but that's the point. If it were, the game would be boring.
However, I do agree that scamming non-vets should carry serious reprocussions as in either banning or maybe even giving all of the stuff that is captured from the guy back to the non-vets who were scammed.
The purpose of most games is to have fun. This holds true for online games.
There is a small minority of players out there who find their fun in ruining the fun of the majority of players out there. When the game isn't fun, people leave.
Griefers are a plague to the online game community. Scamming gives griefers a tool to use to promote their griefing. For this reason, I am opposed to allowing scamming in MMORPGs.
i say if someone is stupid enough to let themselves fall into a scam to bad for them.