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I've Been Thinkin'
Ascension08
Member Posts: 1,980
Ok I know I'm going to be blasted into oblivion by fanbois, maybe even casual people, but I'm just wondering...why complain about the autoattack/skill combat that's become the standard? What makes this soooo much better? I'm talking mechanics here, not blood/decapitation.
Think about it, in AoC you have to direct your autoattacks. That's all well and good, but people compare it to regular autoattack, saying it's much more slow-paced or boring. How often do you really use your autoattack when you're using skills? What if you made those skills position-based and balanced them with CDs? Then you'd have to focus in combat. Using your skills at the right place, at the right time, and having autoattack as something that helps you get a little bit of extra dmg in.
I like how in AoC you have things like active shield blocking and the enemy can focus his defences on one side or another, and I guess this is the only real revolutionizing breakthrough. Combos are flawed, many people don't like them, especially in PvP. Those would probably be the second breakthrough, if Funcom can get it just right. If there was a choice between a game where I had to focus where I was aiming with EVERY attack, on EVERY enemy, OVER and OVER, or have a game where I still have to use strategy with SKILLS (certain positioning, only able to use in certain conditions, ect), I'd take the latter.
I'm not getting into spells here, nor mounted combat, because I think those things are different in AoC and I adknowledge them. Feel free to agree or correct, I'm just going to keep an eye on this 
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Comments
Nearly every auto attack type game you shortcut to nearest target and then if your melee you automatically chase after them after pressing something on your hot bar. In range / mage your arrows or magic bends and tracks the enemy. Its not so much in AoC you have to get up and dirty in the opponents face for the most part, like DDO.
Need to take into consideration the combat mechanics in Mounted combat too, inclusive of collision detection which as yet is still under NDA. Thats mount to mount and mount to grounded fighting with different weapons (polearm) to casting from mount back, etc etc.
The combos experienced this weekend in the PvP are outdated because the client already is.
interactivity. To feel like you have control over the weapon you are using.
I've been playing MMOs for a LONG time, and I'm flat out sick of the "press attack, then use specials" model. Having to actually THINK in combat, counter your opponent's moves appropriately, and actually FIGHT is a drastic step forward, in MY opinion.
As was said on the AoC forums:
"Sorry guys. The days of auto-attacking and your enemy standing directly in front of you swinging their Orange Artifact Mace of Statistical Advantage every 1.59 seconds for 89% base damage against your leather armor -1(spell mitigations + adversarial wind velocity) is over.
Now you must run down your enemies like the dogs they are, and curbstomp them."
Auto-attacking is alright, there's just too many games based on it right now though.
Change for change's sake isn't always good, but in this case the absence of auto-attack is.
Since it's been such a core feature of conventional MMOs, its one of few things that could be changed to make an MMO like AoC seem fresh while still retaining its identity as a through and through MMO.
So that's how I choose to appreciate the combat system. I don't see auto-attacking in a negative light, but I welcome change that's turned out to be pretty good.
Ok guys can I clarify a bit?
I'm not talking about magic/ranged attacks auto-following your target. That's dumb. Arrows are not homing missiles. I'm absolutely fine with aiming or having to think about ranged attacks. But people seem so against using skills in melee, even if those skills require strategy and expertise to use. To have to think about your position, to have to weigh the consequences of using a skill (i.e. the cooldown or if the effect is better than another similar ability), while having an autoattack to SUPPLEMENT your fighting (getting an extra hit in there after a skill) doesn't sound that bad. Focusing on every single attack when you know there are things like lag out there? Seems a bit tedious.
I'm not asking autoattack to hold my hand and to do 80%, not even 50%, or 20% of the dmg for me. If it's there as a supplement then I can't see any difference. As for the rest of AoC's combat (except mounted combat of course) I don't see anything that couldn't be implemented in other games easily (like having to aim for spells or attacks, or not being able to bunny hop).
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
It all comes down to personal preference. As defensive as you are towards the "auto attack" that you are used to and like so much, you also have to understand that there might perhaps be people out there that dislike it equally.
Personally, I desire control over my character which I hope AoC will give me. I like the idea of controlling where I swing my weapon and what I hit along the way. It gives me the realism I want in my games, well as much as you can have while casting magic and riding mamoths
but still. The fact that I will actively be able to go into a blocking mode at will and intercept the incoming weapon is all that much sweeter to me. It helps me enjoy the game more by making me feel all the more part of the fight. At that point it's less about cool downs and more about reactions (yours and your enemy) and the ability to vary your attacks and thus making the fights more random rather then knowing that your opponent will first hit Hamstring and then Mortal Strike and then some other things I don't care to list over and over again in a predictable fashion.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Playing AoC, both PvP and PvE, i've noticed a psychological change, at least for me. I *want* to kick mob ass, because it's *fun*. Charging, knocking them back on my Barbarian and scoring a fatality is just fun. I don't worry about aggro (even though this beta is limited I know, so this may change), because I enjoy the combat of the game. Watching them double over or get knocked around with my weapons is cool, instead of waiitng for my Fear cooldown so I can spam it again.
So again, just because of real time combat, it *plays* differently for me, on a psychological aspect.
For me it comes down to interactivity and activity. In auto attack games you are able to execute your specials and still do dmg in between or while waiting on cool downs without effort. With this system you still wait on cooldowns but in order to continue doing dmg you must continue your active inputs. I like the idea that no dmg happens unless an action is taken on the players part.
Agree that some skills can be spammed over and over, but not so much when they rely on position and other factors. Then it becomes much more difficult. I do like active blocking, so maybe a combination of the two would be best? I think it's hard to have reactionary combat and make it enjoyable for everyone in an MMO, especially one that hopes to have dozens of people fighting at the same time. Lag is just one issue, another is stuns or roots or things like that. I just don't get why people are so sick of the old when it's not THAT bad.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
I'm a martial artist IRL. I like having to use strategy to win a fight, I enjoy the mechanics of combat.
As such, AoC's combat system is ideal for me.
Ok then. It's all a matter of perception and preference...while I see an autoattack system that's almost unnoticable (yes it does that little of your overall damage) as being acceptable, some people want to control their every action. That's what'll seperate people who love this new system and those are just playing for other reasons I guess. WoW's is based too much on percentages, numbers, damage migitation, and the skills can be used in any position under any circumstances, except the CD of course. I DON'T like this system of combat; it needs to be replaced, so I guess this is an acceptable way for some people. I'm just asking don't trash the autoattack yet, some companies can do so much with it that it won't even feel like it does today. /shrug
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
I'm gonna throw this out at you and see if it applies. Feel free to correct me at any point or provide any insight. You play your games in a very mathematical manner. You like to do all the number crunching and have items that if not max out the stats then get you as close to the "perfect" build as you can get it. You spend time deciding if more dodge is better then more critical and whatnot. Does this ring any bells?
I play my games more by feel and a different kind of control. I like to do some active dodging and use terrain to my advantage. I like to involve more things into the equation then just 2 spreadsheets fighting one another. I agree that having good gear in a gear dependent game is vital and that's perhaps why I don't enjoy them that much. It falls more to my ability then to the stats of my character. Having the ability to take advantage of an enemy's mistakes and position is that much better. It all comes down to involvement. Just watching and waiting for cool downs takes that away from me.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I'm gonna throw this out at you and see if it applies. Feel free to correct me at any point or provide any insight. You play your games in a very mathematical manner. You like to do all the number crunching and have items that if not max out the stats then get you as close to the "perfect" build as you can get it. You spend time deciding if more dodge is better then more critical and whatnot. Does this ring any bells?
I play my games more by feel and a different kind of control. I like to do some active dodging and use terrain to my advantage. I like to involve more things into the equation then just 2 spreadsheets fighting one another. I agree that having good gear in a gear dependent game is vital and that's perhaps why I don't enjoy them that much. It falls more to my ability then to the stats of my character. Having the ability to take advantage of an enemy's mistakes and position is that much better. It all comes down to involvement. Just watching and waiting for cool downs takes that away from me.
Yes but look at my above post, I DON'T like how combat is so mathematical. And I never mentioned anything about gear dependancy. I've never heard anything about rolling out of the way of attacks, but that'd be cool.What I'm saying is take AoC's melee combat system and strip it of gear, stats, whatever. You get a system where you focus on every attack and use your reactions to stop incoming attacks or dodge them. Then you can take advantage of weak points, like running around behind him, to win. Compare that to a system where you have an autoattack that is in the background; it will provide a small percentage of your damage. You have skills that focus on position, timing, and maybe accuracy. If you combined something like AoC's defensive system with this kind of autoattack/skill combination, it'd take some of the stress away from focusing on every attack. Actively blocking an attack, then using a skill that can only be used after blocking, then running behind and using a backstab-like skill while autoattacking passively is quite effective. It requires more thinking, since you have to know which skills to use and when, and a little less on the reflexes.
I've shifted to preferring a combination as the new standard, but again that's just me.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
AutoAttack (target+set it=forget it) vs think+click=attack.
In a game where I will have to grind at all, I would rather have an auto-attack feature. After killing your 10th or 11th of any one thing, you might as well be able to macro the interaction (which is what an auto-attack more or less is) It will get old and repetitive... once you figure out the quickest way to kill something, you'll just keep doing it.
My point: Take grinding out of games altogether OR leave the auto attack in.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.