Hey guys and gals.. i wanted to post a response to a couple points people made..
ON camping- The hours that are spent camping mobs is something i dont mind for a couple reasons.. it keeps everyone in the world from having the item... but it also encourages community.. because you dont really sit there with a group for 5 hours doing nothing . your talking and so on which is good for community. I understand that people dont like camping mobs but the benefits are huge for the community. -Convenience is terrible for the community. The easier it is to travel around and the less time you need to spend standing still the less time you spend meeting new people... Games have taken a turn for the worst when it comes to community. Community always ranks high on the polls but i don't think anyone sees the link between immediate gratification and poor community... Global chat channels are also a bad one. I know you would think the oposite but its to easy to yell out a question and get an answer. Without a global channel you might have to ask (and meet) several people to get an answer IE: good for community... Making a game soloable makes people very self centered which causes the community problems we see in games as of recently. It's not that my fellow gamers are bad ...We're just being trained to be self centered and thats why the community suffers.. Look at any of the games without global chat as well as content that must be done with others.. The communities are much nicer to each other.. Camping a mob for 4 hours you meet people you strengthen realationships you already have .. WHY? because you have no choice. think about it in real life terms. If you could wake up in the morning and teleport everywhere you needed to go, do what you needed to do without help, then teleport home at the end of the day. How many people in your lifetime would you not have met
For all the hate it gets, World of Warcraft really is the logical end to the original EQ game design. Blizzard took all the annoying time sinks that EQ was loaded down with (naked corpse runs, slow travel, high death penalty, agonizingly slow leveling, etc.) and threw them out the window while refining and polishing the good aspects of the game. Plus they wrapped it all up in a world that was familiar to folks and that made all the difference.
There won't be another EQ1 anytime soon. At least not unless the developers go into the game expecting it to be a niche product, and they scale down their expectations and plan accordingly. Vanguard probably could have been this game given its pedigree, but Sigil's total screw-up of the game's development and launch pretty much killed that idea. They're doing okay now from what I understand, but VG will never be anywhere near what it could have been for the old school EQ1 crowd.
In the current market? Probably not. For all the hate it gets, World of Warcraft really is the logical end to the original EQ game design. Blizzard took all the annoying time sinks that EQ was loaded down with (naked corpse runs, slow travel, high death penalty, agonizingly slow leveling, etc.) and threw them out the window while refining and polishing the good aspects of the game. Plus they wrapped it all up in a world that was familiar to folks and that made all the difference. There won't be another EQ1 anytime soon. At least not unless the developers go into the game expecting it to be a niche product, and they scale down their expectations and plan accordingly. Vanguard probably could have been this game given its pedigree, but Sigil's total screw-up of the game's development and launch pretty much killed that idea. They're doing okay now from what I understand, but VG will never be anywhere near what it could have been for the old school EQ1 crowd.
Some of those are part of what made accomplishments in EQ so special, you had to bust you ass to get them, with very real risks involved.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Originally posted by safwd There is more but i am going to quit now.
And yes, i know i will probably never see this, and that is too bad. Because even though YOU may not want to play this game (which is fine, you dont have to) i think that there are many who would.
I think this sums up both of what we are saying for the most part if you strip away some small details you focus on.
I agree that there is most likely a market for a similar game as EQ and had Vanguard launched well it would have proven that. However I don't think anyone will ever venture down that path again all things being what they are. The market is ripe for many types of games, but developers are to scared to deviate.
Originally posted by safwd There is more but i am going to quit now.
And yes, i know i will probably never see this, and that is too bad. Because even though YOU may not want to play this game (which is fine, you dont have to) i think that there are many who would.
I think this sums up both of what we are saying for the most part if you strip away some small details you focus on.
I agree that there is most likely a market for a similar game as EQ and had Vanguard launched well it would have proven that. However I don't think anyone will ever venture down that path again all things being what they are. The market is ripe for many types of games, but developers are to scared to deviate.
This we 100% agree on.
What once was a pretty deverse genre of games is now a bunch of clones coming out.
Im hoping that soon Devs will figure out that WoW is not going to be killed anytime soon, so vis creating a WoW like game that will nibble at the WoW crowd they could start making games that cater to the players who dont want to play WoW.
Though i dont play Eve i applaud them because they realise that you can make a hefty profit off of a few hundred thousand people, you dont need millions.
I truely hope Darkfall releases because that would be another niche game out there and if it does well perhaps devs will start looking that way again.
everyone has their likes and dislikes, something that is all too quickly forgotten on here. What one person may like- another person may not and vice versa.
I would try out a new EQ type of game. Based on the same principles. There most defitinely is the market for that type of game, but the developers just need to get it right. They'll likely have a very loyal sub base because of it being a niche these days.
For some reason people think the core of EQ was tedium. No, the corpse runs, hideous med times, long travel times, and borked boats ride didn'tmake EQ fun. The thing that made EQ fun was the forced dependence, excellent class diversity, and superior dungeon design. This led to people enjoying the journey not the destination(admittely that was destroyed when they turned it into a raid game). No, it wasn't perfect, but no one has even tried to copy the success that comes from forced dependence.
There are too many MMOs that play like single player games. This destroys the community. Too many MMOs that have classes that are too alike. EQ2 the classes are not that diverse. Seem as WoW. Dungeons in EQ2 are retarded to the point no one even does it. In WOW everyone is in a rush to get to 70, so no one goes to the lower level dungeons.
DDO is the closest thing we have to EQ, imo. Its just too bad DDO doesn't have a world to explore.
This is funny ! wow is nothing but a rep grind which is a poor excuse for blizzard to be lazycause they have no content to put in. world of warcraft was a good game until patch 1.10 after that the game went downhill rep grinds are a unnecessary time sink when they are put in till fill the gaps for a company just draining you for money now cause they have nothing left to put in the game. EQ and dark age of camelot were the greatest games to ever be made, but sony failed at making a new everquest, but warhammer is coming and it will be the best game ever made mark my words mythic owns your asses.
EQ1 is okay for someone with a lot of time and patience.
I played the game and saw some things I could like about it. But I have to do things like work and study (darn real life commitments). I couldn't sit down for just a little while (when I got some time) and do anything. So, it turned out to be someone who wanted to play but couldn't.
I think that's where the "newer" games shine. As much as I hate WoW, I can sit down for 30 mins or an hour and do something worth while (well, at least until you max out and they put you through the raiding grinder).
There is one thing I noticed about these games though. And WoW is getting guilty of this as well. After they age, new players have no one to play with. Everyone is huddled around the cap level dungeons and such and it's like the whole rest of the world went dead. It not only takes away from the social experience for new players, but it makes 95% of the world the game takes place in not seem alive any more. It's like they keep adding more track in front of the train hoping to keep if from racing off the end and crashing.
For some reason people think the core of EQ was tedium. No, the corpse runs, hideous med times, long travel times, and borked boats ride didn'tmake EQ fun. The thing that made EQ fun was the forced dependence, excellent class diversity, and superior dungeon design. This led to people enjoying the journey not the destination(admittely that was destroyed when they turned it into a raid game). No, it wasn't perfect, but no one has even tried to copy the success that comes from forced dependence. There are too many MMOs that play like single player games. This destroys the community. Too many MMOs that have classes that are too alike. EQ2 the classes are not that diverse. Seem as WoW. Dungeons in EQ2 are retarded to the point no one even does it. In WOW everyone is in a rush to get to 70, so no one goes to the lower level dungeons.
DDO is the closest thing we have to EQ, imo. Its just too bad DDO doesn't have a world to explore.
Group dependence is fine, as long as you don't have to wait hours for a group. That's where the tedium sets in. And there were some dungeons and experiences in EQ1 I wanted to get in to, but never could find a group.
I am really amazed at all the EQ1 bigots. Do you people really understand what that game introduced?
Structured, rigid character types and game play. I cannot think of anything so horrid in the marketplace today. At least in UO you could change your character into anything you wanted to change it to. UO was most certainly not the perfect game, it had huge problems itself, but the skill system it used has yet to be challenged by any game here to for.
So don't compare Darkfall to EQ1, they are like night and day.
Doesn't it really come down to Risk vs Reward, Actions and Resulting Consequences, retrospectively? EQ was challenging, that challenge can be easily viewed as tedium and monotonous. At the time I would like to believe that most people understood and respected the fact that you were going to have to earn your way in EQ, sure there were short cuts and as in life we do try to find the path of least resistance, however most people understood nothing 'good' was going to come easily.
EQ was a community game. Its foundation was rooted in the social interaction of the players, thus the infuses of RPG in the MMORPG name, something people seem to be moving away from. Though people didn't necessary 'role play', the environment allowed for people to escape into a world and not adopt outside influences to then manufacture something artificial in the game, that came later by means of PLing and Farming. I call it the Hurry Up and Have Fun mentality.
The process of leveling, doing quest and crafting suddenly became obstacles that were holding people back from 'enjoying' the game. The essence of the game was starting to lose its wholesomeness because people didn't want to have to deal with the risk vs reward system, which was slowly being viewed as old fashion methodology (or even unfair).
Game designers still want to capture that sense of development and progression, but the methodology has been geared around holding people's attention by introducing constant activity, thus like in Warharmmer, war is everywhere. Down time has nearly been completely removed from MMO's, questing and crafting have been modified to make them less social dependent.
The soloing element is really a psychological one. People don't necessarily want to feel the need to actively interact with others, because others may hold them back or endanger them, more so others may not share in the same goals or even concerns about distributing loot. Its sad when the game becomes a Me centric one.
I can understand the solo experience, I was a Druid in EQ and benefited from being able to get loot or resources that I needed (on my own), but I always knew the importance of being part of a community and being part of some wonderful guilds.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
Some of those are part of what made accomplishments in EQ so special, you had to bust you ass to get them, with very real risks involved.
They're also what made the game mind-numbing and tedious for long stretches of time. Camping a mob for 12+ hours isn't fun or special. It's just a pointless time sink. Same goes for the long travel times in the early game (i.e., pre-PoP) , or losing hours of progress due to a single mistake or a lag spike.
I played EQ1 from the time it launched until the Ykesha expansion, and in retrospect, it felt more like a second job than it ever did a game. Sure, EQ had its moments of fun, but the sheer amount of time wasted with simple things like traveling across several zones to meet a group, or waiting for a particular spawn is something I'd never want to go through again.
I'm sure there's still a market for a new EQ1. Hell, if done right, Vanguard would have been that game, particularly since the same development team made both games. But it's also a very small market. It's a niche and it will stay a niche, so anyone who makes a game like that has to go in expecting a small, but dedicated group of players.
I just want a game that has a slower pace to it. It's absolutely impossible to chat with anyone in groups anymore unless you have voice chat. What happened to just mingling with people in groups while getting some experience and maybe a decent item or two? If anything I feel WoW and EQ2 are more like a second job than EQ1 ever was. Having to do this or that, and only this or that, then run back to someone else to update your quest or get a new green to sell for some silver, it's all very errand-sounding to me. I'd much rather sit at the bottom of Old Sebilis, get to know some new people, get tired of Disco and move over to the Jugs or maybe the King if someone wants a shot at a Fungi Tunic. So much more relaxed and what I think of as being a "game".
Speaking of the Fungi, it was awesome that those really good items were so rare. Waiting days and day for a T-Staff, Fungi or Blade of Carnage to appear for sale gave me a little thrill, and having one meant that I stood out a little and certainly had a more capable character as well. Was it a real accomplishment? Eh...not sure. But getting your final Prayer Shawl is doubtless a task that an entire group and indeed guild of people can take pride in, knowing that that is the only way it'll ever happen.
Sure the game had it's issues but it's still the best example of an alternate world that you can mess around in for a couple hours every now and then. Vanguard is ebbing closer to it after initially running the opposite direction, so there's some hope yet perhaps.
I am really amazed at all the EQ1 bigots. Do you people really understand what that game introduced? Structured, rigid character types and game play. I cannot think of anything so horrid in the marketplace today. At least in UO you could change your character into anything you wanted to change it to. UO was most certainly not the perfect game, it had huge problems itself, but the skill system it used has yet to be challenged by any game here to for. So don't compare Darkfall to EQ1, they are like night and day.
So im guessing you like skill based games huh.
You skill based Bigot!!!
Its cool that you didnt like EQ about what makes us bigots because we did. Some of us think skill based games are not so hot.
EQ was certainly not the first incarnation of a class based system. It may have been the first major MMO that was class based but EQ took a whole lot from D&D so it isnt surprising that it was class based.
I do agree with you about a comparison between Darkfall and EQ though, they are not even close. At least in theory they arent close because no one knows if Darkfall will actually ever come out.
* Can you believe the gaul of EQ fans. To come onto a thread ABOUT EQ and actually say that they like EQ. Those bastards!!!!!!
Comments
short term: hell no
long term: Maybe...but i for-see some other awesome formula coming out
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Well said and all true.
I think it would pull 250K+ subscribers and that is plenty.
I know i would be one of them.
Problem is they (the money hungry companies) don't want 250k, they want to shoot for 8 million like WoW.
In the current market? Probably not.
For all the hate it gets, World of Warcraft really is the logical end to the original EQ game design. Blizzard took all the annoying time sinks that EQ was loaded down with (naked corpse runs, slow travel, high death penalty, agonizingly slow leveling, etc.) and threw them out the window while refining and polishing the good aspects of the game. Plus they wrapped it all up in a world that was familiar to folks and that made all the difference.
There won't be another EQ1 anytime soon. At least not unless the developers go into the game expecting it to be a niche product, and they scale down their expectations and plan accordingly. Vanguard probably could have been this game given its pedigree, but Sigil's total screw-up of the game's development and launch pretty much killed that idea. They're doing okay now from what I understand, but VG will never be anywhere near what it could have been for the old school EQ1 crowd.
Some of those are part of what made accomplishments in EQ so special, you had to bust you ass to get them, with very real risks involved.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I think it would pull 250K+ subscribers and that is plenty.
I know i would be one of them.
Sadly i feel you are quite right.Problem is they (the money hungry companies) don't want 250k, they want to shoot for 8 million like WoW.
As Lidane said, it would have to be considered a niche game now and the producers would need to be happy with that.
It would really suck for them if they could only affort 2 Mercedes and not 3.
I agree that there is most likely a market for a similar game as EQ and had Vanguard launched well it would have proven that. However I don't think anyone will ever venture down that path again all things being what they are. The market is ripe for many types of games, but developers are to scared to deviate.
I agree that there is most likely a market for a similar game as EQ and had Vanguard launched well it would have proven that. However I don't think anyone will ever venture down that path again all things being what they are. The market is ripe for many types of games, but developers are to scared to deviate.
This we 100% agree on.What once was a pretty deverse genre of games is now a bunch of clones coming out.
Im hoping that soon Devs will figure out that WoW is not going to be killed anytime soon, so vis creating a WoW like game that will nibble at the WoW crowd they could start making games that cater to the players who dont want to play WoW.
Though i dont play Eve i applaud them because they realise that you can make a hefty profit off of a few hundred thousand people, you dont need millions.
I truely hope Darkfall releases because that would be another niche game out there and if it does well perhaps devs will start looking that way again.
Iz funny that you think EQ1 was great
I would try out a new EQ type of game. Based on the same principles. There most defitinely is the market for that type of game, but the developers just need to get it right. They'll likely have a very loyal sub base because of it being a niche these days.
For some reason people think the core of EQ was tedium. No, the corpse runs, hideous med times, long travel times, and borked boats ride didn'tmake EQ fun. The thing that made EQ fun was the forced dependence, excellent class diversity, and superior dungeon design. This led to people enjoying the journey not the destination(admittely that was destroyed when they turned it into a raid game). No, it wasn't perfect, but no one has even tried to copy the success that comes from forced dependence.
There are too many MMOs that play like single player games. This destroys the community. Too many MMOs that have classes that are too alike. EQ2 the classes are not that diverse. Seem as WoW. Dungeons in EQ2 are retarded to the point no one even does it. In WOW everyone is in a rush to get to 70, so no one goes to the lower level dungeons.
DDO is the closest thing we have to EQ, imo. Its just too bad DDO doesn't have a world to explore.
This is funny ! wow is nothing but a rep grind which is a poor excuse for blizzard to be lazycause they have no content to put in. world of warcraft was a good game until patch 1.10 after that the game went downhill rep grinds are a unnecessary time sink when they are put in till fill the gaps for a company just draining you for money now cause they have nothing left to put in the game. EQ and dark age of camelot were the greatest games to ever be made, but sony failed at making a new everquest, but warhammer is coming and it will be the best game ever made mark my words mythic owns your asses.
EQ1 is okay for someone with a lot of time and patience.
I played the game and saw some things I could like about it. But I have to do things like work and study (darn real life commitments). I couldn't sit down for just a little while (when I got some time) and do anything. So, it turned out to be someone who wanted to play but couldn't.
I think that's where the "newer" games shine. As much as I hate WoW, I can sit down for 30 mins or an hour and do something worth while (well, at least until you max out and they put you through the raiding grinder).
There is one thing I noticed about these games though. And WoW is getting guilty of this as well. After they age, new players have no one to play with. Everyone is huddled around the cap level dungeons and such and it's like the whole rest of the world went dead. It not only takes away from the social experience for new players, but it makes 95% of the world the game takes place in not seem alive any more. It's like they keep adding more track in front of the train hoping to keep if from racing off the end and crashing.
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All Rights Reversed
Group dependence is fine, as long as you don't have to wait hours for a group. That's where the tedium sets in. And there were some dungeons and experiences in EQ1 I wanted to get in to, but never could find a group.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
All Rights Reversed
I am really amazed at all the EQ1 bigots. Do you people really understand what that game introduced?
Structured, rigid character types and game play. I cannot think of anything so horrid in the marketplace today. At least in UO you could change your character into anything you wanted to change it to. UO was most certainly not the perfect game, it had huge problems itself, but the skill system it used has yet to be challenged by any game here to for.
So don't compare Darkfall to EQ1, they are like night and day.
Doesn't it really come down to Risk vs Reward, Actions and Resulting Consequences, retrospectively? EQ was challenging, that challenge can be easily viewed as tedium and monotonous. At the time I would like to believe that most people understood and respected the fact that you were going to have to earn your way in EQ, sure there were short cuts and as in life we do try to find the path of least resistance, however most people understood nothing 'good' was going to come easily.
EQ was a community game. Its foundation was rooted in the social interaction of the players, thus the infuses of RPG in the MMORPG name, something people seem to be moving away from. Though people didn't necessary 'role play', the environment allowed for people to escape into a world and not adopt outside influences to then manufacture something artificial in the game, that came later by means of PLing and Farming. I call it the Hurry Up and Have Fun mentality.
The process of leveling, doing quest and crafting suddenly became obstacles that were holding people back from 'enjoying' the game. The essence of the game was starting to lose its wholesomeness because people didn't want to have to deal with the risk vs reward system, which was slowly being viewed as old fashion methodology (or even unfair).
Game designers still want to capture that sense of development and progression, but the methodology has been geared around holding people's attention by introducing constant activity, thus like in Warharmmer, war is everywhere. Down time has nearly been completely removed from MMO's, questing and crafting have been modified to make them less social dependent.
The soloing element is really a psychological one. People don't necessarily want to feel the need to actively interact with others, because others may hold them back or endanger them, more so others may not share in the same goals or even concerns about distributing loot. Its sad when the game becomes a Me centric one.
I can understand the solo experience, I was a Druid in EQ and benefited from being able to get loot or resources that I needed (on my own), but I always knew the importance of being part of a community and being part of some wonderful guilds.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
They're also what made the game mind-numbing and tedious for long stretches of time. Camping a mob for 12+ hours isn't fun or special. It's just a pointless time sink. Same goes for the long travel times in the early game (i.e., pre-PoP) , or losing hours of progress due to a single mistake or a lag spike.
I played EQ1 from the time it launched until the Ykesha expansion, and in retrospect, it felt more like a second job than it ever did a game. Sure, EQ had its moments of fun, but the sheer amount of time wasted with simple things like traveling across several zones to meet a group, or waiting for a particular spawn is something I'd never want to go through again.
I'm sure there's still a market for a new EQ1. Hell, if done right, Vanguard would have been that game, particularly since the same development team made both games. But it's also a very small market. It's a niche and it will stay a niche, so anyone who makes a game like that has to go in expecting a small, but dedicated group of players.
I just want a game that has a slower pace to it. It's absolutely impossible to chat with anyone in groups anymore unless you have voice chat. What happened to just mingling with people in groups while getting some experience and maybe a decent item or two? If anything I feel WoW and EQ2 are more like a second job than EQ1 ever was. Having to do this or that, and only this or that, then run back to someone else to update your quest or get a new green to sell for some silver, it's all very errand-sounding to me. I'd much rather sit at the bottom of Old Sebilis, get to know some new people, get tired of Disco and move over to the Jugs or maybe the King if someone wants a shot at a Fungi Tunic. So much more relaxed and what I think of as being a "game".
Speaking of the Fungi, it was awesome that those really good items were so rare. Waiting days and day for a T-Staff, Fungi or Blade of Carnage to appear for sale gave me a little thrill, and having one meant that I stood out a little and certainly had a more capable character as well. Was it a real accomplishment? Eh...not sure. But getting your final Prayer Shawl is doubtless a task that an entire group and indeed guild of people can take pride in, knowing that that is the only way it'll ever happen.
Sure the game had it's issues but it's still the best example of an alternate world that you can mess around in for a couple hours every now and then. Vanguard is ebbing closer to it after initially running the opposite direction, so there's some hope yet perhaps.
So im guessing you like skill based games huh.
You skill based Bigot!!!
Its cool that you didnt like EQ about what makes us bigots because we did. Some of us think skill based games are not so hot.
EQ was certainly not the first incarnation of a class based system. It may have been the first major MMO that was class based but EQ took a whole lot from D&D so it isnt surprising that it was class based.
I do agree with you about a comparison between Darkfall and EQ though, they are not even close. At least in theory they arent close because no one knows if Darkfall will actually ever come out.
* Can you believe the gaul of EQ fans. To come onto a thread ABOUT EQ and actually say that they like EQ. Those bastards!!!!!!
Iz funny that you think EQ1 was great
Its funny that you dont.
@!
But at least with the EQ grind i didnt feel like the game was holding my hand the whole way like i was an infant.