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A question for Lord of the Rings fans
I am not well read on the LOTR backstory and had a question. Bearing in mind that most of my knowledge comes from the films, what's the difference between an orc and a goblin?
I gather that the Uruk-hai are a crossbreed orc hybrid which explains their bigger size. Then I see the normal orcs, but there were also the hordes of goblins in Moria that looked kind of similar. Are orcs and goblins supposed to be two seperate species that are very closely related, or is goblin just a term for a smaller orc? Or is there just a sub-breed of orcs native to Moria that are called goblins?
Comments
Orcs were created out of Elves that were tortured and corrupted
and as you say the Uruk-hai are a crossbreed also created in order to improve the fighting skills of orcs and create a perfect killing mashine
Apparently in Tolkien's world they are the same thing, as described here:
http://tolkien.cro.net/orcs/goblins.html
However, in the Warhammer world, they are two different creatures with the orcs being the larger and stronger of the two:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcs_&_Goblins
Oh I know all about the Warhammer world, but I'm not really familiar with the Tolkien world.
Tolkien seemed to use the words Goblin and Orc interchangeably. In the Hobbit he mostly refered to them as Goblins, then mostly used the term Orc in the LotR.
Most of us would picture orcs as big brutish monsters, Tolkien had them smaller than humans, hunched, long arms etc, exactly how one would describe a goblin.
IMO i think in his mind they were the same creature.
As to who did these things.
Morgoth created the orcs in the elder days, along with goblins who were their smaller, faster relatives with better noses for tracking scent. Sauron used the orcs as well, and later he developed the uruk-hai and the olog-hai. They are both stronger, more daylight resistant orcs, as big as men and fierce in combat. Saruman did not design the uruk-hai (as in the movie) that is a common misconcepcion.
Sauron was the first servant of Melkor , In the first Great Battle Melkor and Morgoth(Which the region name Mordor originates) were defeated, Sauron sought repentance for his misdeeds. When Man'we were to judge him, Sauron disappeared and hid. Through hiding Sauron relived the days of Melkor and Morgoth and brought forth Morgoths will to Dominate.
So, orcs and goblins have an issue with sunlight? Does it kill them, or just bother them?
Thats a good question Sawtooth. I have not looked it up yet. But Morgoth is a diety of middle Earth. Of the darkness at that. So my guess since orcs and goblins are Morgoths creation they may have traits Morgoth sees as acceptable. I really should look it up.
According to a friend of mine that has read all of Tolkein's stuff (including LotR series fourteen times) Goblins and orcs are not the same thing exactly.
According to him, Goblins were twisted elves, and orcs are the result of men being thrown into the "gene pool" so to speak, which would make sense because Goblins in the books were typically seen using bows, while orcs preferred hand to hand combat...So take that for whatever it's worth.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
1. There is no difference between "Orc" and "Goblin". They refer to the exact same thing.
2. There are different breeds (and tribes) of Orcs. They don't all speak the same language and so have to use Westron (the Common tongue) when interacting with one another. Oh, and they tend to really not like one another either.
3. Sunlight doesn't kill Orcs. It makes them lightheaded, dizzy, and generally unable to fight well. They *really* don't like it. The Uruk-hai are somewhat more resistant to these effects, but they don't like the Sun much, either.
4. The Uruk-hai are indeed a stronger, more dangerous breed of Orc. However, they are not the result of inter-breeding with Men. While Saruman did create some Half-Orcs (the squinty-eyed Southerner in Bree was one), that is not what the Uruk-hai were.
I can provide citations to reference everything I said above, but I'm short on time right now. Just trust me that I know what I'm talking about on this stuff.
Goblins are a smaller breed of Orc such as the goblins in Moria. Basically they've been totally underground so long they have bred a bit smaller then normal orcs and adapted to the underground life more. But yeah Tolkien used the term Orc and Goblin as the same word.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan
I don't really know.
The only thing I have to say is that MEO spent 3yrs on the design process trying to make the game as close to Tolkien's books as possible.
The sad thing is, that was all thrown out the window when Turbine bought the game and it became LoTR:O. The original MEO didn't have the license to anything from the movies. They retained only the license to the Books. Which is why it was Middle Earth Online instead of LoTRO.
Can tell someone watched the movies more than read the Silmarillion.
I have read the Simarillion (several times), The Hobbit (a few times), and The Lord of the Rings trilogy (once). In all of that I don't recall ever seeing any mention of Orcs and Goblins being separate species. Tokien did seem to use the two words interchangably.
In The Hobbit I believe there was a brief reference to the "goblins' larger cousins" or something like that. But that would imply something like sub-race differentiation rather than being completely separate things.
Regarding their sensitivity to sunlight; Tolkien seemed to invoke that when it suited him and ignore it when it didn't suit him. Sometimes sunlight seemed to bother Orcs/goblins and at other times it obviously didn't because they were out in force in broad daylight.
Another sunlight inconsistancy is with trolls. In The Hobbit sunlight was deadly to trolls but in the Silmarillion there were serveral references to trolls fighting in major battles in broad daylight.
Thats true , I did not think about it like that. Man, making me want to reread the books again.!
[quote]Originally posted by xpowderx
Can tell someone watched the movies more than read the Silmarillion.[/b][/quote]
Wow. Nice refutation. You didn't even have to refer to any books, just make some vaguely worded comment.
Of course, you're WRONG. I've watched FotR and TT each, once. I've never even seen RotK and don't really want to, either. OTOH, I've read LotR many, many times, and Sil probably around 10 times or so. I've also read UT and Letters and much of (but not all of) 'The History of Middle-earth'.
Hell, I used to debate on USENET (alt.fan.tolkien and rec.arts.books.tolkien) with some of the people Jackson got as consultants to his movies.
But to go back to the OP's question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)
That should cover it. You'll note that there is some speculation that Saruman may have created his Uruk-hai, but I, for one, think he rather seduced them away from Sauron rather than created them himself, based primarily on Ugluk's comments in the 'Uruk-hai' chapter of TT. Also, some of the Orcs in Mordor referred to them as "traitors" which could imply they had once served Sauron. But overall I don't have a problem with Wiki's info on the subject.
You never mentioned the Olag-hai. You are correct that Saruman seduced Saurons or as it is put Morgoths orcs. Since Sauron is actually only a servant to Morgoth. Olag-hai, the Wikpedia never mentioned them as well. They should be informed.
Since the Olog-hai are not Orcs, and the OP was asking about Orcs, I didn't bring them up. The Olog-hai are a superior breed of Troll that was, if memory serves, bred by Sauron near the time of the War of the Ring.
'... Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons.' -- The Shadow of the Past, FotR
I'm pretty sure that the above is referring to the Olog-hai. The hill-trolls that Pippin fought before the Black Gate were fighting in the daytime.
Orcs, unlike todays Greenskins, in Middle Earth have dark to black skin, animalistic faces, they are all weakened by sunlight and were made by Melkor - one of the dark Middle Earth gods - from Elves who were tortured and mutilated. They werent intelligent enough to speak the Black Laguage of Mordor made by Sauron, so they spoke Pidgin-Westron, a bastard version of the common language of the free people.
There are two types of Ocs
1) Snaga: small Orcs from the North, Snaga means "slave" in the Black language of Mordor, they are relatively weak but reproduce fast, they were usally pressed into Saurons service
2) Uruk-hai ("Ork-People") They were created by Sauron in the 3rd Age, almost as big a man, fast, strong and resistend against sunlight damage. Many tribes of Snaga were ruled by some Uruks, since they had more intelligence and loyalty to Sauron. Unlike in the movies, in the books Sauron bred the Uruk-hai, but Saruman made his own Uruk-hai breed, which you may think of as Half-Orcs, since he crossed them with wild human tribes.
While all Orcs described in the books are male, there is clear indications Orcs reproduce like humans, so they are supposed to be females and children.
The word Goblin is a term Hobbits used for Orcs in general. The notion that Goblins are small (= the Snaga) came AFTER Tolkien. Originally it covered ALL Orcs as the Hobbits called them, since the story of LOTR is basically from the view of the Hobbits, and they had little insight in the details of the Orcs and likely only knew about the smaller Snaga.
Unlike Orcs in other Fantasy worlds, in Tolkiens they are mere monsters, abominations to be slain, something I never liked about Tolkien, tbh.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
[edit] Made from the earth
According to the oldest "theory" proposed by Tolkien (found in The Fall of Gondolin, from The Book of Lost Tales, circa 1917 — the first tale of Middle-earth to be written in full), Orcs were made of stone and slime through the sorcery of Morgoth ("bred from the heats and slimes of the earth" — The Book of Lost Tales, Vol. 2).
As contested above, Sauron while a aid to Melkor was not the creator of orcs. Morgoth creator of Orcs.
Please use this source.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29
[edit] Made from the earth
According to the oldest "theory" proposed by Tolkien (found in The Fall of Gondolin, from The Book of Lost Tales, circa 1917 — the first tale of Middle-earth to be written in full), Orcs were made of stone and slime through the sorcery of Morgoth ("bred from the heats and slimes of the earth" — The Book of Lost Tales, Vol. 2).
As contested above, Sauron while a aid to Melkor was not the creator of orcs. Morgoth creator of Orcs.
Please use this source.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29
Melkor/Morgoth created the ORIGINAL Orcs, but the Uruks were a breed of Sauron.
Tolkien had many different theories how Orcs were made, but the one they were made from Elves is the canonical from the Silmarillion. The theory of Orcs being made of mud wasnt widely used, and the Elf-breed is the most common he used. ^^
I do not like Wikipedia in such detail, and refer to the books rather.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
[edit] Made from the earth
According to the oldest "theory" proposed by Tolkien (found in The Fall of Gondolin, from The Book of Lost Tales, circa 1917 — the first tale of Middle-earth to be written in full), Orcs were made of stone and slime through the sorcery of Morgoth ("bred from the heats and slimes of the earth" — The Book of Lost Tales, Vol. 2).
As contested above, Sauron while a aid to Melkor was not the creator of orcs. Morgoth creator of Orcs.
Please use this source.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29
Melkor/Morgoth created the ORIGINAL Orcs, but the Uruks were a breed of Sauron.
Tolkien had many different theories how Orcs were made, but the one they were made from Elves is the canonical from the Silmarillion. The theory of Orcs being made of mud wasnt widely used, and the Elf-breed is the most common he used. ^^
I do not like Wikipedia in such detail, and refer to the books rather.
Then you would know via the Silmarillion that Sauron was under Morgoth. And both Morgoth and Sauron had plans laid for the Uruk.
You would also know that there are only a few passages concerning this. As Tolkien died shortly after Silmarillion.
Tolkien died in 1973. 'The Silmarillion' (Sil) was first published in 1977.
Furthermore, Sil was not completed by Tolkien; he never finished it. Instead, his son, Christopher Tolkien (CT), took the most finished and self-consistant stories from his father's works and, with the help of Guy Gavriel Kay (GGK), edited them and had them published as 'The Silmarillion'.
The important things to take away from this are: the material found in Sil is NOT necessarily what Tolkien would've ended up publishing if he'd lived long enough to do so; some of the material in Sil was written by CT and GGK. Furthermore, CT said, many years later, that he regretted some of the choices he made when making Sil fit to be published.
All that said, I still generally view Sil as canon, so long as it doesn't contradict anything in LotR. It's a lot more comprehensive and self-consistant than 'The History of Middle-earth' (HoMe), and most people accept citations produced from it.