Wheres the D&D online section?

grove123 · August 2004

Ive been reading about the new D&D online game coming out like in a year or so. Most of the time MMORPG picks up on new games and just posts a section for them so people can hype or discuss it, but DDO isnt here. Kinda weird since, if anyone has read the previews of the game, it looks like itll beat EQ2, WOW, MEO, and the rest of the MMORPGs. Its that good.

RJCox · August 2004

It's still a little far out on that one. We add the Forums for a game a little closer to release and as room permits, right now our forum list is running kinda long. But a redesign of all of it is in the works so that hopefully when it's done ALL games will have their own forum without having to worry about how long the list is.

Smelly_Armor · August 2004

Kunou's right. It will be at least 2006 sometime before you will see D&D Online. Website is in the works though for it. No worries....mmorpg.com will have it on the list when it's time for it to be. There are alot of people here, including admins and mods here, glancing towards the future on that one.

Bakstad · August 2004

Im curious as to where you found any good information on this game...i googled it but only came up with a few short reviews and such. Any solid info on the game anywhere?

Genjing · August 2004

The D&D preview/world tour/roundtable at gamespy are pretty good.

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/dungeons-dragons-online/536083p1.html

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/dungeons-dragons-online/536364p1.html

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/dungeons-dragons-online/536646p1.html

GobboKnight · August 2004

I heard it was more like late '05, but it's early to say, true. I notice the devs post fairly often at the DDO Vault boards (IGN). They had an entertaining thread where they talk about the PnP D&D campaign they are running, check it out.

http://vnboards.ign.com/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Online_General_Board/b22447/71649004/?68

-Gobbo Knight

"Tie two birds together...they have four wings, but cannot fly." -Blind man, Circle of Iron

grove123 · August 2004

there is also something in PC gamer, though gamespy is your best source since it already has alot of info and its free.

But in the mag they mentioned how u can shoot an arrow at a wall, and the clank will send enemies to investigate. Also youll have multiple ways to defeat bosses or enemies. Like a barbarian can take them on head on, while a rogue might sneak above them and push a bulder on their heads.

Unknown · August 2004

Originally posted by grove123

Ive been reading about the new D&D online game coming out like in a year or so. Most of the time MMORPG picks up on new games and just posts a section for them so people can hype or discuss it, but DDO isnt here. Kinda weird since, if anyone has read the previews of the game, it looks like itll beat EQ2, WOW, MEO, and the rest of the MMORPGs. Its that good.

Click on the " EverQuest " link to check out the old, current, D&D game. It has Elves, HOBBITS, Ents, every single thing D&D originally had when D&D first came out before they got sued by the Tolkien estated.

Click on the " EverQuest 2 " link to check out the REAL new upcoming D&D game that will succeed.

That other D&D game aka DDO aka Dungeons and Dragons Online will end up as vaporware. The main reason is because EQ2 is "DDO" LOL!

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Smelly_Armor · August 2004

Originally posted by xplororor

Originally posted by grove123

Ive been reading about the new D&D online game coming out like in a year or so. Most of the time MMORPG picks up on new games and just posts a section for them so people can hype or discuss it, but DDO isnt here. Kinda weird since, if anyone has read the previews of the game, it looks like itll beat EQ2, WOW, MEO, and the rest of the MMORPGs. Its that good.

Click on the " EverQuest " link to check out the old, current, D&D game. It has Elves, HOBBITS, Ents, every single thing D&D originally had when D&D first came out before they got sued by the Tolkien estated.

Click on the " EverQuest 2 " link to check out the REAL new upcoming D&D game that will succeed.

That other D&D game aka DDO aka Dungeons and Dragons Online will end up as vaporware. The main reason is because EQ2 is "DDO" LOL!

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I hope you don't take this personally....but I really don't care....EQ and EQ2 is not even close to D&D Online and that comment could be considered sacrilege. While the creators and developers of EQ may have had their ideas based off of the D&D pen and paper game, it is certainly not D&D. Most every fantasy style mmoprg and rpg today are based off of and owe their existence to the original D&D that started it all in 1974. I think EQ and EQ2 and all fantasy mmorpgs should have a "Thank you Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson" scrolling at the bottom of the screen when you play...just a joking of course, but they are owed many thanks. If done right, D&D online would blow EQ and EQ2 and most any other mmorpg out of the water.

Don't get me wrong, EQ is a good and EQ2 will be a good mmorpg for what they are, but your comment is just an out and out flame and fanboy comment.

Unknown · August 2004

Originally posted by RabidWerWolf
I hope you don't take this personally....but I really don't care....

   No harm done. If that is how you personally feel, I support you.

EQ and EQ2 is not even close to D&D Online and that comment could be considered sacrilege.

   Sooo what does DDO have that EQ does not have? What does DDO have that EQ2 does not have?

While the creators and developers of EQ may have had their ideas based off of the D&D pen and paper game, it is certainly not D&D. Most every fantasy style mmoprg and rpg today are based off of and owe their existence to the original D&D that started it all in 1974. I think EQ and EQ2 and all fantasy mmorpgs should have a "Thank you Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson" scrolling at the bottom of the screen when you play...just a joking of course, but they are owed many thanks. If done right, D&D online would blow EQ and EQ2 and most any other mmorpg out of the water.

   No it is the other way around. The two guys who made D&D in the early 1970's should be kissing J.R.R. Tolkien's feet non-stop. In fact, Tolkien's Estate successfully sued Gary and Dave in a brutal lawsuite in the 1970's. Why? Because D&D 100% came from Tolkien's works, Tolkien's influence. Fast forward to EQ. EQ did take things from D&D. In fact McQuaid and Smeadly are on record saying the EQ world Norrath(sp?) was originally made and played in D&D. EQ went even further - they went to the source of D&D which is Tolkien. Thus, everything in EQ is D&D and Tolkien.

So again, what does DDO have that EQ does not have? What does DDO have that EQ2 does not have?

Don't get me wrong, EQ is a good and EQ2 will be a good mmorpg for what they are, but your comment is just an out and out flame and fanboy comment.

No my comments are not a flame. They might seem odd, because very few know the true full history of D&D, Tolkien, and EQ. My comments are facts. Feel free to go to your local libary and look up on microfilm (I think every libary has the NY Times? Or at least 1 major paper on microfilm.) when the Tolkien Estate sued D&D for being a 100% copycat, for getting ALL the ideas in D&D from Tolkien's many, many, books, poems, and essays.
It is a fact EQ was first a D&D game that Smeadly and McQuaid played with friends before coming up with the idea of adapting it to a computer MMORPG. They simply took everything from the D&D game and put it into a computer game = EQ. Thus EQ is D&D. EQ is MEO aka Middle Earth Online (another wanna be MMORPG in developement that will also end up vaporware ).
You want to hear something really odd? DDO and MEO are being made by the same company. At the same time. To compeat vs each other! Bad enough they have to worry about WoW, EQ2, GW, etc... and the rest of the other competition LOL!

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Genjing · August 2004

Originally posted by xplororor

Sooo what does DDO have that EQ does not have? What does DDO have that EQ2 does not have?

Hmm, how about dynamic instanced content, no more sandwich combat, but fast paced combat that requires skill and is actually fun, a ruleset more faithful to classic pnp D&D, a community thats more interested in role-playing than becoming uber/rich, a focus on small tight-knit communities, the elimination of item/spawn camping, the ability to climb a wall or roll to evade an attack, the support of Wizards of the Coast and D&D fans, and the backing of a company not known for nerfing and ruining the original spirit of the game?

Just because they both have elves, dwarves and magic doesn't make them the same.

Unknown · August 2004

Genjing,

I want to first thank you for stepping up and making the effort to try finding anything, something, that DDO has that EQ does not have. That DDO has that EQ2 does not have. So far you are the only one who has stepped up to the challenge.

Originally posted by Genjing

Originally posted by xplororor

Sooo what does DDO have that EQ does not have? What does DDO have that EQ2 does not have?

Hmm, how about dynamic instanced content, no more sandwich combat, but fast paced combat that requires skill and is actually fun,

Already done in EQ. AO was the first to have "instanced" content. AO called it another name. Guess what? It was EQ which changed the name to "instanced" aka "personal instancing".

EQ2 is set to have "fast paced combat". But then again, it is up to the player how fast paced the combat is. Some players on purpose fight the easiest possible monsters. Some players on purpose fight the hardest possible monsters their character can handle. The same will happen in DDO.

No matter what the "required skill" will be based on one's character. Not on the skill of the person at the keyboard a-la Counter-Strike.

a ruleset more faithful to classic pnp D&D,

Too vague. EQ is very faithful to classic PnP D&D. The classic, original PnP D&D was very faithful to the ruleset made by Tolkien. EQ was faithful to both D&D and Tolkien's rulesets. (The lore of each race. How Elf NPCs will kill Troll players becuse Elves do not like Trolls, Elves are not a physically strong as a Barbarian, etc... etc..)

Next, it does not matter what "rulesets" the game DEVs make. Players will choose to either follow them, or not.

a community thats more interested in role-playing than becoming uber/rich, a focus on small tight-knit communities,

This has been stated many times for many other MMORPGs. The fact is no game can force players to Role-Play. DDO cannot force role-playing either. Will DDO have loot? Will DDO have money/gold? Yes or no??? If it does have loot, then it will definatly have players intrested in becoming uber and rich. The entire game can be full of L00t D00ds and as long as they are paying to play, they will be there.

the elimination of item/spawn camping,

This is a repeat of your first point. Instancing is suppose to get rid of camping. AO was the first game to have it and introduce this revolutionary idea. SWG tried it and built on it. EQ has now adopted it. EQ2 is to have it also.

the ability to climb a wall or roll to evade an attack,

I do not think EQ allows wall climbing. But DAoC does. EQ2 might. No one knows yes or no yet. But no one will pay a monthly fee for months and years just so they can climb walls. DAoC and SWG do have evading attacks. EQ has it, so does many other MMORPGs. The character will block, parry, or the enemy NPC will miss. DAoC IMHO has the best evade attack feature in the character animation. SWG has the next best, as characters will roll around on the ground, dive, duck, crawl, etc.. to avoid attacks.

the support of Wizards of the Coast and D&D fans, and the backing of a company not known for nerfing and ruining the original spirit of the game?

Wizards of the coast is no longer as big of a name as it once was. It is also no longer as large of a money maker. The only thing support from them gives is access to all their manuals, formulas, guides, etc... Since EQ originally was a D&D Pen and Paper game, it also took information from WotC guides, rule books, manuals, etc.... Any information given to DDO by WotC is easily accesable and useable by EQ, EQ2, as well as all other fantasy-themed MMORGs.

As for "support from D&D fans" that applies to every single fantasy-themed MMORPG from Runescape, to Astonia 3, to Ultima Online, to EverQuest, to Dark Age of Camelot, to EverQuest 2, to World of Warcraft. All those games have D&D themes. EQ and EQ2 the most. EQ and EQ2 also have the full support of D&D fans.

BTW all MMORPGs end up nerfing stuff in their games. Every single one. Including the company that is making DDO. Your last statement about runining the spirit of the game is very far from the truth - proof is the fact that the company making DDO has already put out a brand new, state of the art, 4th generation, MMORPG that has f-a-i-l-e-d horribly. They had roughly 50,000 players at release and over 1 1/2 years later now have 6,000 players playing. Some servers have less than 50 (Fifty!) players online at peak time. So much for a clean company history.

Just because they both have elves, dwarves and magic doesn't make them the same.

Re-read that. If two games have the same things they are not the same?!? O...... K. The only game features and game mechanics that DDO has that EQ and EQ2 do not have is... climbing walls.

I will give you an example of a game simular to EQ, but is different: DAoC. It has the same things EQ has, but on purpose made itself different by going after the PvP market. By having PvP for a type of landcontrol.

EQ has instancing, EQ2 is planning to have it. The pace of combat is decided in all MMORPGs by the players depending on how much risk they are willing to take to die. Players do not follow the rules set by the game DEVs. (in EQ one will see Dark Elf players grouping with Humans, Elves, etc.. Trolls grouping with Humans, Dwarves, etc...) No game can force players to role-play.

Out of all your points, so far it seems the only thing DDO might have that EQ does not have and EQ2 does not have is.... the ability to climb walls. Keep any new points coming.

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Finwe · August 2004

This may seem harsh....But.....I hope D&DO goes to hell!

Personally the original turbine team I thought were some of the best dev's out there for the whole fact they came up with AC1. Which Imo was the best MMRPG that ever existed.

But then they make AC2...Trash

They're makeing MEO, all the concepts, the screenshots....Trash/clone of AC2 with not even much better graphics and just the Middle-Earth name to carry it which as wel wouldl just make tolkien hurl in his grave for seeing what they've done to it. Its a noob....carebear....trash....cookie-cutter game that is ruining a beloved world.

Then D&DO.......Well, there they go again. Making another nice world go to hell. I mean instanced dungeons. Completely limited PvP. The possibility of not even having to sell loot or whatnot.

What next, no death penalty. I mean the game is going to be n00b carebear, with all everyone can do is either play as a good guy, or just speak like a bad-guy but not back up his words or not even act evil because PvP is so limited.

Trash....Trash.....Trash....

Turbine fired all their original devs and made a butt-wipe of a game and in the process of making two more.

Oh, btw, I agree that almost every MMRPG that has come out is a rip-off of the original stories told by Tolkien, EQ being the beginning of it. Interesting enough, AC1 wasnt, and it was a niche game, go figure that people are just brainless morons that follow every clone game out there.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

Genjing · August 2004

Originally posted by xplororor

Already done in EQ. AO was the first to have "instanced" content. AO called it another name. Guess what? It was EQ which changed the name to "instanced" aka "personal instancing".

EQ2 is set to have "fast paced combat". But then again, it is up to the player how fast paced the combat is. Some players on purpose fight the easiest possible monsters. Some players on purpose fight the hardest possible monsters their character can handle. The same will happen in DDO.

No matter what the "required skill" will be based on one's character. Not on the skill of the person at the keyboard a-la Counter-Strike.

The instancing in this case is a bit different i think? Dungeons in D&D Online will have stuff going on in them that make it almost like a single player game. Traps that spring on you and you'll have to avoid (or if you have a good rogue with you, they'd have spotted and disarmed it), locked doors, and other good stuff. Fire spreads realistically, they mentioned somewhere that during testing, they lit up a monster which began running down the hall, and as it brushed past a torch, it also ignited. Light and shadows will affect the success of hiding and sneaking. Also, the dungeons are randomized, so no more downloading maps online for easy runs.

The combat of D&D Online is pretty unique as well. There is an attack button, a guard button, skills like tumble that allow you to actively dodge out of the way. If you watch the gameplay video, archery requires aiming. Avatars will be able to run and jump as well. Every movement will be controllable, it completely avoids the auto-attacking model for combat.

Too vague. EQ is very faithful to classic PnP D&D. The classic, original PnP D&D was very faithful to the ruleset made by Tolkien. EQ was faithful to both D&D and Tolkien's rulesets. (The lore of each race. How Elf NPCs will kill Troll players becuse Elves do not like Trolls, Elves are not a physically strong as a Barbarian, etc... etc..)

Next, it does not matter what "rulesets" the game DEVs make. Players will choose to either follow them, or not.

I meant by rulesets... the spells, monsters, alignment, savings throws, other technicalities of the pnp design. While lore is important, even that is different between EQ1/2 and Eberron, the D&D campaign that DDO takes place in. Read the Tour of Eberron preview in gamespy, Norrath and Eberron are very very different places.

This has been stated many times for many other MMORPGs. The fact is no game can force players to Role-Play. DDO cannot force role-playing either. Will DDO have loot? Will DDO have money/gold? Yes or no??? If it does have loot, then it will definatly have players intrested in becoming uber and rich. The entire game can be full of L00t D00ds and as long as they are paying to play, they will be there.

Well, i definitely can't make any real guarantees here, but the average size of each server in D&D online will be a few hundred, about 300-400. They claim that the smaller server base will result in a closer community, and perhaps make it more comfortable to roleplay than in a superworld of thousands. Wether or not it works, its definitely different from EQ.

the elimination of item/spawn camping,

This is a repeat of your first point. Instancing is suppose to get rid of camping. AO was the first game to have it and introduce this revolutionary idea. SWG tried it and built on it. EQ has now adopted it. EQ2 is to have it also.

One important point to add; if you enter a dungeon on a mission, you will not recieve rewards or experience until the mission is completed. I'm not sure if this means that monsters will not have loot, but it makes completing the mission a priority as opposed to searching for the loot on the way. You get nothing on the way; EQ2?

I do not think EQ allows wall climbing. But DAoC does. EQ2 might. No one knows yes or no yet. But no one will pay a monthly fee for months and years just so they can climb walls. DAoC and SWG do have evading attacks. EQ has it, so does many other MMORPGs. The character will block, parry, or the enemy NPC will miss. DAoC IMHO has the best evade attack feature in the character animation. SWG has the next best, as characters will roll around on the ground, dive, duck, crawl, etc.. to avoid attacks.

As far as i know, you don't control those movements though, they're just expressions of whats going on with the auto-battling. If you tumble to the left in DDO, it'll be because you yourself did that, you have a dodge skill, and you hit "X" for example to execute it, not because the game calculated an evasion and wants you to look cool. No auto-combat. None at all.

Wizards of the coast is no longer as big of a name as it once was. It is also no longer as large of a money maker. The only thing support from them gives is access to all their manuals, formulas, guides, etc... Since EQ originally was a D&D Pen and Paper game, it also took information from WotC guides, rule books, manuals, etc.... Any information given to DDO by WotC is easily accesable and useable by EQ, EQ2, as well as all other fantasy-themed MMORGs.

Well, the fact that Wizards of the Coast loves how DDO is coming along so far still makes it different from EQ2. If you look over some DDO forums, almost all have some experience with the PnP game that they hope to have again in DDO. There's a big nostalgia thing going on, when people talk about DDO, that EQ2 just doesn't have.

BTW all MMORPGs end up nerfing stuff in their games. Every single one. Including the company that is making DDO. Your last statement about runining the spirit of the game is very far from the truth - proof is the fact that the company making DDO has already put out a brand new, state of the art, 4th generation, MMORPG that has f-a-i-l-e-d horribly. They had roughly 50,000 players at release and over 1 1/2 years later now have 6,000 players playing. Some servers have less than 50 (Fifty!) players online at peak time. So much for a clean company history.

Well, much of what i've read by Vanguard fans indicate that EQ was changed quite a bit from the original developer's intentions. EQ is the grandfather of sandwich combat and grind. AC2 may have been a commercial flop but they stuck with it, relasing patches and continuing to add content to this day, despite sub-par subscriptions.

SOE on the other hand, just on this board alone... look how many people complain about SOE compared to complaints about any other company.

I'm not saying D&D will be the better game, since its just too ridiculously far off, but DDO will be different at least

And Finwe... i think one of the reasons they mentioned... was that the traditional PnP game didn't really focus on players killing other players, but the whole dungeon crawling thing and slaying monsters as a team idea. Also, the n00b carebear market is getting pretty big.

Admin · August 2004

DDO will be on our game list as soon as Turbine gets us some screens that are not exclusive to Gamespy or another site (unlike many sites we don't believe in stealing others exclusives!).

We require screen shots to feature games and they are holding out on us It looks like a great game and we are anxiously waiting to add it to our list!

- MMORPG.COM Staff -

Finwe · August 2004

Originally posted by Genjing

And Finwe... i think one of the reasons they mentioned... was that the traditional PnP game didn't really focus on players killing other players, but the whole dungeon crawling thing and slaying monsters as a team idea. Also, the n00b carebear market is getting pretty big.

Of course its big! Because all the devs offer us is mindless bash crap. So obviously the mindless flock to as said community....

Yep, it started that way, but as things progressed, more options were added, making more freedom, hence having more fun because you have more freedom to act out your character as more then a good guy, but a evil backstabbing thieving sneaking bastard rogue if you wanted to.

Chaotic Evil....Whats the point if you cant be chaotic & evil. Neutral....Whats the point, your forced that way anyhow.

Good.....It'll just be a slogan for the merchants to give you better prices.

Truth of the matter is, games are getting farther down into hell as they supposedly reach the next generation. This is like turbo-entropy at its maximum, and it doesnt seem to be stopping anytime soon.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

Smelly_Armor · August 2004

xplororor, first of all...props for that good, intelligent come back post

Second...I think you still flamed, but I understand you really enjoy playing EQ and are really looking forward to EQ2 and so you are just stating how you feel.

Third...D&D was sued by the Tolkien estate mainly over the use of TSR's terminology of characters and certain monsters especially since they were using the word "hobbit" which is part of the reason the wording was changed to "halfling". Same race just a different name. Yes, you are correct that Arneson and Gary Gygax owe Tolkien, as do most all fantasy writers and game developers, props because it was his works that greatly influenced them to create the game, that and the "Fantasy Supplement" ruleset from the Chainmail miniatures wargaming rules . They did step out though and were one of the first people to create a fantasy, role-playing game. Dave Arneson was really probably the first with his "Blackmoor" game.

I guess you could say the three "gods" or "fathers" of role-playing and especially mmorpgs would be Tolkien, D&D(Arneson&Gygax), and EQ. I give props for EQ for doing what it's done, and it has earned it's place in the "role playing" "hall of fame" in my opinion, but his does not make EQ a D&D online game, and I don't know if D&D Online will capture the true feel of the pen-n-paper roleplaying game....but I hope it does.

One thing to add, I do like how the rogue or thief's roll is being well thought out in D&D Online as there will be many traps for this type of character to disarm so that a party would almost have to have at least one member be a rogue.

It is so early in the game's development, and I doubt if it will make it's target date of late 2005 so there is a ways to go to see what D&D Online will offer and what it will not. Finwe, I doubt if D&D Online will be "carebear" from what I've read and what is planned.

Finwe · August 2004

Originally posted by RabidWerWolf
xplororor, first of all...props for that good, intelligent come back post

I guess you could say the three "gods" or "fathers" of role-playing and especially mmorpgs would be Tolkien, D&D(Arneson&Gygax), and EQ. I give props for EQ for doing what it's done, and it has earned it's place in the "role playing" "hall of fame" in my opinion, but his does not make EQ a D&D online game, and I don't know if D&D Online will capture the true feel of the pen-n-paper roleplaying game....but I hope it does.

EQ? No....EQ was the first big 3d MMRPG. Personally, I hate EQ with a vengeance because it started a trend that wasnt that good to begin with. And EQ really was not the first 3d MMRPG, both it and AC1 were released at the same time I believe.

UO I would have to say belongs there instead of EQ.

It is so early in the game's development, and I doubt if it will make it's target date of late 2005 so there is a ways to go to see what D&D Online will offer and what it will not. Finwe, I doubt if D&D Online will be "carebear" from what I've read and what is planned.

Gimme links. Because so far what i've read its just screamed level/loot carebear fest.

You got interviews quotes or whatnot that says otherwise, gimme links.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

Smelly_Armor · August 2004

Originally posted by Finwe

Originally posted by RabidWerWolf

xplororor, first of all...props for that good, intelligent come back post

I guess you could say the three "gods" or "fathers" of role-playing and especially mmorpgs would be Tolkien, D&D(Arneson&Gygax), and EQ. I give props for EQ for doing what it's done, and it has earned it's place in the "role playing" "hall of fame" in my opinion, but his does not make EQ a D&D online game, and I don't know if D&D Online will capture the true feel of the pen-n-paper roleplaying game....but I hope it does.

EQ? No....EQ was the first big 3d MMRPG. Personally, I hate EQ with a vengeance because it started a trend that wasnt that good to begin with. And EQ really was not the first 3d MMRPG, both it and AC1 were released at the same time I believe.

UO I would have to say belongs there instead of EQ.

I stand corrected in the sense that you are right, UO was the first mmorpg, and yes, EQ and AC were released about the same time. I was referring to EQ's success and popularity. In that case, it should go to UO to being the first.

D&D was not the first pen-paper role playing game, but it was the first to become successful and popular.

It is so early in the game's development, and I doubt if it will make it's target date of late 2005 so there is a ways to go to see what D&D Online will offer and what it will not. Finwe, I doubt if D&D Online will be "carebear" from what I've read and what is planned.

Gimme links. Because so far what i've read its just screamed level/loot carebear fest.

You got interviews quotes or whatnot that says otherwise, gimme links.

Here are two links to first look reviews done by gamespy and one by gamespot.

D&D Online Review GameSpy
D&D Online Review GameSpot

I'm trying to figure out where you are getting your information that the game is going to be "carebear" since there is little info to go on. I've never said that D&D online is going to be the greatest game, but that I hope a good job is done developing the game to capture the "role-playing" feel of the old pen-n-paper game. Please explain the term "carebear" since I'm a "30 something" old fart, and yes, I've seen that crappy cartoon because you watch stuff like that when you have to babysit 5 yearolds.
edit: fixed links..sorry bout that.

I would like to add that I agree with you Finwe that more thought needs to be put into allowing you to actually be a "chaotically evil" ,"lawful evil" , or "neutrally evil" aligned character if you so wish to play as such. Right now, you are right, no matter what alignment you choose, you are pretty much playing a "good" to "neutrally" aligned type character with no freedom otherwise. One such way to design an xp and skill advancement that rewards you for playing along you character's alignment and penalizes you for not. Maybe this is something we shall see in some future mmorpg, but I doubt that it is not going to be in D&D Online unless there is a nice surprise at the release of the game.

Finwe · August 2004

Carebear....As in soft-core, no PvP, competition, etc, etc.

I'd think if you've played MMRPG's you'd know this no matter how old you are.

Btw. Ya, there isnt enough information out to tell if its going to be like that yet...But.

The way they're going with MEO, a setting based on a gigantic war brewing/going on. Its doubtful for them to add it in D&DO.

And ya, thats what I'm talking about. No freedom really. Evil "drow". Well....That evil in you will just have to be overcome and you'll have to be drizzt, because there is only one choice. Which saddens me, RPG=Roleplaying Game. Hows it roleplaying if your choices are limited to what they choose, and what they choose is very limited.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

Smelly_Armor · August 2004

Lol....gotcha on the "carebear" descript.....I must just be slow on the uptake, but at the same time, I haven't played many mmorpgs since I quit EQ about 2 and a half years ago. I've tried PristonTales, but it was too "cartoony" for me. I've played SoR in open beta, and if they get all the freaking bugs fixed, I'll probably try and give it ago. Really, it's still up in the air on which one of the new mmorpgs I'll play. Until then, I'll be playing AA, and I'll play thru Fable on the Xbox when it is released.

edit add: It would be nice if someone would develop an mmorpg where you could be as "evil" or as bad as you wanted. You could be a famed and feared assassin, a vampire prowling the streets at night, a werewolf terrorizing villagers every full moon and so on.

Unknown · August 2004

Originally posted by Genjing

The instancing in this case is a bit different i think? Dungeons in D&D Online will have stuff going on in them that make it almost like a single player game.

   Already first done in AO. EQ has recently copied what AO has. Thus EQ now has it. EQ2 is planning to have it also.

Traps that spring on you and you'll have to avoid (or if you have a good rogue with you, they'd have spotted and disarmed it), locked doors, and other good stuff.

Already first done in AO. EQ has recently copied this also. EQ2 is planning to have it.

Fire spreads realistically, they mentioned somewhere that during testing, they lit up a monster which began running down the hall, and as it brushed past a torch, it also ignited.

   AO does not have this exact feature - being able to set monsters on fire. But in AO monsters will call for help, they have a line of sight (you can sneak thorough rooms when they have their back turned), you can get ganged up on if you make too much noise in a nearby room. There are boxes and crates to search through, remote cameras watching for intruders (heheh ok can only be done in a Sci-Fi game. ). EQ has other new dungeon features that match to lighting monsters on fire.

Light and shadows will affect the success of hiding and sneaking.

First done in AO. In AO players will on purpose take missions/personal dungeons/personal instancing that they have zero chance of being able to kill any of the monsters, henchmen, or bosses. It is called mission blitzing aka dungeon blitzing, aka personal instancing blitzing. In which they must sneak around in order to get treasure. There are also personal missions/personal instancing that specifically say "No killing" or "killing is not necessary to complete the goal."

Sneaking can be done in EQ, but with camoflage (sp) skill by certain professions. EQ2 will have this feature that EQ has. If there is any difference between DDO and EQ and EQ2 with this feature it might be that in DDO any and all races/professions can do this. While in EQ and maybe EQ2, only certain races/professions can do this.

Also, the dungeons are randomized, so no more downloading maps online for easy runs.

Brilliantly first done in AO. AO is still supream KING of randomized dungeons. BTW Astonia 3 also has this feature. There are special dungeons called "The Pents" or "The Pens"   And yes... copied by EQ recently. And yes, EQ now has it. And EQ2 is planning to have it.

The combat of D&D Online is pretty unique as well. There is an attack button, a guard button, skills like tumble that allow you to actively dodge out of the way. If you watch the gameplay video, archery requires aiming.

Scratch your point about an attack button. Every MMORPG has this LOL. A guard button.... hmmm..... AO definatly has this and more. SWG is the MMORPG with the most invovled combat. I will say this feature is either the same between DDO and EQ or DDO might have it planned better. EQ2 may or may not have it as good as DDO has it.

Archery in EQ requires Aiming. It most definatly will in EQ2. Archery also requires aming in AC.

Avatars will be able to run and jump as well. Every movement will be controllable, it completely avoids the auto-attacking model for combat.

Running and jumping is obviously in every single MMORPG. (Though SWG for some strange reason still does not have jumping heheh.)

EQ is not 100% auto combat. Again, it is up to the player himself/herself how invovlved in combat they wish to be. Players who fight the hardest possible monster for their level have to be more invovled. EQ has seperate controls for additional combat moves like Bashing, Attacking with one's shield, Kicking, punching, backslapping, etc... etc...

Players who on purpose fight the easiest possible monster for their level can click on attack and leave the computer and go make a sandwich, use the restroom, check their mail, then come back 15 to 20  mins later.



I meant by rulesets... the spells, monsters, alignment, savings throws, other technicalities of the pnp design.

   All in EQ. There are specific spells, monsters, alignment (blatantly obvious), moves, and other technicalities of PnP that was adopted to EQ. And will be in EQ2. The main point you are still missing is that EQ WAS first a Pen and Paper D&D game. It was then adopted to computer form. That is why I say EQ is unofficially D&D. And same with EQ2 its sequel. The only thing EQ needs to do is decide to pay royalites to the D&D creators IF EQ changes its name.

While lore is important, even that is different between EQ1/2 and Eberron, the D&D campaign that DDO takes place in. Read the Tour of Eberron preview in gamespy, Norrath and Eberron are very very different places.

   D&D released how many campaigns? How many guide books? hundreds??? And you can list only 1 that might be different?

Well, i definitely can't make any real guarantees here, but the average size of each server in D&D online will be a few hundred, about 300-400. They claim that the smaller server base will result in a closer community, and perhaps make it more comfortable to roleplay than in a superworld of thousands. Wether or not it works, its definitely different from EQ.

   This will not happen if DDO wants to on purpose have 300 to 400 players per server. 500 players is not enough to pay for the upkeep of a modern server for a modern million $$$$ MMORPG. It is also no where close to being enough players to recoup developement costs, and then turn a true profit. Unless the D&D money men do not mind wating 5 to 10 years before they turn a true profit.

the elimination of item/spawn camping,

Again, already first done in AO. EQ copied AO and is starting to eliminate it. It will take far longer because EQ is over 4+ years old and not a brand new game. EQ2 will 100% copy this feature from AO and thus have this exact same feature DDO has.

One important point to add; if you enter a dungeon on a mission, you will not recieve rewards or experience until the mission is completed. I'm not sure if this means that monsters will not have loot, but it makes completing the mission a priority as opposed to searching for the loot on the way. You get nothing on the way; EQ2?

   AO has loot on the way, as well as mega-loot when the mission/goal is completed. EQ has recently added this. EQ2 most defintatly will have this since it is copying this feature directly from AO from the getgo. Getting minor loot along the way and mega-loot after completing the goal is on par with DDO only having loot when the goal is completed.

As far as i know, you don't control those movements though, they're just expressions of whats going on with the auto-battling.

Climbing in DAoC is not an automovement. The player has to decide to do it. I will allow that EQ does not have wall climbing and DDO does.

If you tumble to the left in DDO, it'll be because you yourself did that, you have a dodge skill, and you hit "X" for example to execute it, not because the game calculated an evasion and wants you to look cool. No auto-combat. None at all.

   Again, it is up to the player how involved in the battle they want to be. AO has plenty of combat movements that the player must manually execute. EQ has many also. Maybe more offensive movements than defensive movements like bashing, backslapping, attacking with the shield, kicking, etc...etc... EQ2 is planning to have as many as EQ, or more moves like AO has. SWG still rules with the most ever combat movements available to players.

Well, the fact that Wizards of the Coast loves how DDO is coming along so far still makes it different from EQ2.

   No it does not. What does WotC liking DDO add to DDO? Again, it means it gives DDO open reference to all of WotC's manuals, guides, etc... Which is also available to EQ, and every single other MMORPG. Will having WotC managers, and owners playing DDO attract more players? Maybe at first, but with MMORPGs it is game features that keep players continously paying a monthly fee for years. Not a few famous guys playing the game. If having famous guys from WotC gets DDO above 400,000 accounts THEN it will actually make a difference.

If you look over some DDO forums, almost all have some experience with the PnP game that they hope to have again in DDO. There's a big nostalgia thing going on, when people talk about DDO, that EQ2 just doesn't have.

   If you look over the EQ, and EQ2 forums, and forums for every single Fantasy-themed MMORPG, there are also threads with players relating their PnP experience. Threads about their nostalgia. BTW at most 1,000 to 5,000 to 10,000 people post on the forums for DDO. How many people play EQ who also have PnP experience, nostalgia but do not regularly post? No one knows. What is known is EQ has over 400,000 accounts. If every single poster at the DDO forums played DDO, DDO still would not come close to being a success.

Well, much of what i've read by Vanguard fans indicate that EQ was changed quite a bit from the original developer's intentions.

Nerfs apply to features in the game after game release that then get taken out. They do not apply to what is planned, intended, aka what was on the drawing board. And again, every single MMORPG has had nerfs.   Some of the most biggest ever in MMORPG history of nerfs was made by the company making DDO.

EQ is the grandfather of sandwich combat and grind.

1. EQ right now is different from EQ 4 years ago, 3 years ago, etc. We are talking about the current EQ. Since that is what will be compeating vs DDO and all other MMORPGs. It is the current EQ features that EQ2 will be looking at putting in their game. EQ no longer only has "sandwich combat".

2. And all MMORPGs have a grind. The question is making the grind as fun as possible, so players do not notice it as much, as one of the most famous DEVs in the industry Raph Koster pointed out.

3. EQ by adding features from AO (the exact same features DDO is planning to have) has lessened the grind feeling. EQ2 is intending to have this same feature from AO, that DDO is also planning to have.

AC2 may have been a commercial flop but they stuck with it, relasing patches and continuing to add content to this day, despite sub-par subscriptions.

   And it still is a flop. Subscriber numbers have not increased despite them sticking with it. Despite all new patches and content. (actually AC's profits is what is keeping AC2 on life support.)

SOE on the other hand, just on this board alone... look how many people complain about SOE compared to complaints about any other company.

And look at how many players play SOE games compared to other companie's games? Also this board has roughly 100 to 500 regular posters with more than 5 posts. That is not a representation of how the majority of gamers feel. Not even 5,000 regular posters would be. Not even 50,000 regular posters IF this site had that many regular posters.

I'm not saying D&D will be the better game, since its just too ridiculously far off, but DDO will be different at least

   On this I can either agree, or say I am neutral and do not disagree. I really DO want DDO to be as different as possible. That is why I am asking you and any other DDO fans to try to list all and anything about DDO that is different from EQ, that is different from EQ2.

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Unknown · August 2004

Originally posted by RabidWerWolf
xplororor, first of all...props for that good, intelligent come back post

Thanks. But I did not mean it as a "comeback". I really do want all DDO fans to post as many things about DDO that is different from EQ, and different from EQ2. Hopefully this will give DDO even more of a chance to not end up like AC2.

Second...I think you still flamed, but I understand you really enjoy playing EQ and are really looking forward to EQ2 and so you are just stating how you feel.

   Flames are namecalling, or posting without intending to back up points with legitimate information. I have never namecalled anyone in this thread. All my information about AO, SWG, DAoC, EQ, and EQ2 are all true. Ask anyone else who has played those games. Or go browse their official forums. Or even play the free trial downloads and see for yourself.

Third...D&D was sued by the Tolkien estate mainly over the use of TSR's terminology of characters and certain monsters especially since they were using the word "hobbit" which is part of the reason the wording was changed to "halfling". Same race just a different name.

   Having different names does not mean D&D is different than Tolkien. That is why I say EQ and EQ2 are unofficially DDO already. EQ and EQ2 also have either the exact same names, or different names than Tolkien and D&D.

Yes, you are correct that Arneson and Gary Gygax owe Tolkien, as do most all fantasy writers and game developers, props because it was his works that greatly influenced them to create the game, that and the "Fantasy Supplement" ruleset from the Chainmail miniatures wargaming rules . They did step out though and were one of the first people to create a fantasy, role-playing game. Dave Arneson was really probably the first with his "Blackmoor" game.

   I fully agree here with you.

I guess you could say the three "gods" or "fathers" of role-playing and especially mmorpgs would be Tolkien, D&D(Arneson&Gygax), and EQ.

Not quite. EQ would be a demi-god. The 4 gods are Tolkien, D&D, Lord British, and Lord British. With EQ and AC being demi-gods.

I give props for EQ for doing what it's done, and it has earned it's place in the "role playing" "hall of fame" in my opinion, but his does not make EQ a D&D online game, and I don't know if D&D Online will capture the true feel of the pen-n-paper roleplaying game....but I hope it does.

No computer game will every fully capture the true feel of the PnP games. There are just things that cannot translate. It is like making a movie version of a book. Both can be excellet, but there are just some things the book can do that the movie cannot do. There are just some things about PnP that a computer game cannot do.

I do hope DDO succeeds. Again, one reason why I am pushing the DDO fans to scratch their brains and find all and anythings different in DDO compared to EQ, and compared to EQ2.

One thing to add, I do like how the rogue or thief's roll is being well thought out in D&D Online as there will be many traps for this type of character to disarm so that a party would almost have to have at least one member be a rogue.

    AO was the first to have this. Since AO is roughly a 50% skill based/50% level based game, it is possible for all characters to have "rogue skills". Though some characters excel at it better than others. EQ2 has it to a lesser extent because it recently adopted this feature from AO. EQ2 will have this from the getgo.

It is so early in the game's development, and I doubt if it will make it's target date of late 2005 so there is a ways to go to see what D&D Online will offer and what it will not. Finwe, I doubt if D&D Online will be "carebear" from what I've read and what is planned.

I agree it is too far in DDO's developement to talk about it. It is still in its vaporware stage. (Meaning it is not 100% fact it will get relased. No beta actually going on right now.) By the time DDO gets released EQ2 will have already eaten up most of the fantasy-themed market. IMHO Turbine is making the exact same mistake made with AC vs EQ. AC got released in EQ's shadow. DDO will get released in EQ2's shadow.

I personally like playing both "carebear" and "PvP". It is others complaining that DDO or other MMORPGs are too "carebear". Heheh.

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---------------------------

Genjing · August 2004

Originally posted by xplororor

Scratch your point about an attack button. Every MMORPG has this LOL. A guard button.... hmmm..... AO definatly has this and more. SWG is the MMORPG with the most invovled combat. I will say this feature is either the same between DDO and EQ or DDO might have it planned better. EQ2 may or may not have it as good as DDO has it.

This attack button doesn't start the auto-attack though; i mean, that every time you press it ONCE, you swing ONCE. You can tap out combos or feats something like that. Its in no way similar to any game with auto-attack. One of the reasons that D&D fans are wary of DDO, is that the combat is an action game, or even twitch i've heard. Nothing is automatic.

Running and jumping is obviously in every single MMORPG. (Though SWG for some strange reason still does not have jumping heheh.)

But is it an important part of combat? To jump over the head of a smaller monster to avoid being surrounded, run down to a narrow hall and fight them one on one? Most auto-attack games you can just stand in 1 spot the whole time.

   D&D released how many campaigns? How many guide books? hundreds??? And you can list only 1 that might be different?

I only mentioned that one because its the campaign setting DDO is built on. None of that traditional Greyhawk stuff where everything is in terms of black and white.

   This will not happen if DDO wants to on purpose have 300 to 400 players per server. 500 players is not enough to pay for the upkeep of a modern server for a modern million $$$$ MMORPG. It is also no where close to being enough players to recoup developement costs, and then turn a true profit. Unless the D&D money men do not mind wating 5 to 10 years before they turn a true profit.

I don't really understand how it'd work either, but it sounds like this is what they want to do... and its different

Also, if this game is any sort of success, they'd need lots and lots of servers... and they'd all be smaller than traditional servers in terms of the data each needs to control, so it might work out? dunno..

   Again, it is up to the player how involved in the battle they want to be. AO has plenty of combat movements that the player must manually execute. EQ has many also. Maybe more offensive movements than defensive movements like bashing, backslapping, attacking with the shield, kicking, etc...etc... EQ2 is planning to have as many as EQ, or more moves like AO has. SWG still rules with the most ever combat movements available to players.

I don't mean how tough combat actually is, but fundamentally how its done. If you watch the videos of DDO, where the guy is running around, it looks more like Baldurs gate: Dark Alliance than a traditional mmorpg combat. Its an action game.

Nerfs apply to features in the game after game release that then get taken out. They do not apply to what is planned, intended, aka what was on the drawing board. And again, every single MMORPG has had nerfs.   Some of the most biggest ever in MMORPG history of nerfs was made by the company making DDO.

Not all nerfs are bad. But look at the topics about SOE, i hear nothing but bad things. admriker's SOE banning thread, many people are swearing off SOE games completely. I don't hear nearly that much bad stuff about Turbine.

And all MMORPGs have a grind. The question is making the grind as fun as possible, so players do not notice it as much, as one of the most famous DEVs in the industry Raph Koster pointed out.

Yep, thats the magic goal.

   And it still is a flop. Subscriber numbers have not increased despite them sticking with it. Despite all new patches and content. (actually AC's profits is what is keeping AC2 on life support.)

So why would they stick with it, even if its not making mega-millions? Maybe... some sort of artistic integrity, remaining loyal to the few subscribers that actually stay with it? Look at EA pulling the plug on Earth and Beyond. The fact that they're still updating and adding stuff regularly for AC2 shows to me that they don't just toss their projects aside if it doesn't make a profit.

And look at how many players play SOE games compared to other companie's games? Also this board has roughly 100 to 500 regular posters with more than 5 posts. That is not a representation of how the majority of gamers feel. Not even 5,000 regular posters would be. Not even 50,000 regular posters IF this site had that many regular posters.

My point was that i do hear complaints about SOE, at all. When was the last time there was a thread complaining about Turbine's banning policies, or poor customer service, or being overly greedy?

   On this I can either agree, or say I am neutral and do not disagree. I really DO want DDO to be as different as possible. That is why I am asking you and any other DDO fans to try to list all and anything about DDO that is different from EQ, that is different from EQ2.

Well there's not much info out, since its in alpha or something like that. But you should check out the gameplay videos, if anything.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/ddonline/media.html

aethalin · August 2004

Hiya,

I do have to disagree to a point. Gygax and Arneson are not really the creators of D&D, that goes out to the multitude of college gaming groups of the time and before. There was already a ruleset craeted before Gygax released his version for profit. Originally before Gygax tried to market it, D&D or chainmail of the time, was going to be pretty much free. The college groups would be the ones writing most of the material. I think books would have cost something, but adventures would have been free. I have a couple frieds who gamed around that time, and I have been researching it for a few years. In a since "open source", but since that term really wasn't used yet, and that would be for software an code not stories. It would have been in the same vein I think.

Also the reason Gygax was in trouble when he release his ruleset was because it had hobbits and orcs in it. The name of hobbits had to be changed, but orc was generic enough to stand. Yes AD&D was somewhat based off of Tolkien, but also Moorcock, R.E. Howard, and H.P. Lovecraft. Also you have to remeber Tolkien grabbed much of his writings from old mythos and legends. We all draw resources for inspiration from other works. Granted many of the races were in the Tolkiens writings, but many are different from the Tolkien counter parts. If I would accuse anyone of plagerism it would be Blizzards, but that is another story. I do agree that Tolkien's was inspiration for the creation of gaming, but so was the any fanstasy writer.

Everquest does take much from AD&D, but one thing it did not grab is the richness of the worlds. They really didn't integrate much of the history well with Everquest. I liked it for what it was, but I was disappointed in the lack of content or real story. The grind of the game left a foul taste in my mouth, but yet I did have some great times on there when I could find someone with a modicum of roleplay skill. I don't really find everquest in line with AD&D, but they are both part of the same genre high fantasy, which sets them apart from Tolkien. ::::02:: I do find that Everquest does not have the depth of quests, that AD&D usually does, well that was until Wizards came along and butchered everything. Of cource they have many of the same creatures and attributes, but AD&D in my opinion integrates them better. AD&D has more story and at least for 1st and 2nd ed AD&D has a bit more realism that I enjoy. I greatly dislike the armor and weapon designs everquest has, especially since I fight in armor, and I have a idea what won't work.

Also Middle earth already has had a role play system it is called MERP, great game, but not really around anymore.

Would I like to play D&DO well at this poitn I really don't know. I hate 3rd, and I don't really think Wizards has the creativity or abilityto create anything worthy, but again that is my opinion. For old time sake I wouldn't mind trying it, since I have been gaming since about 1980. Another issue I have is that I am not a bit fan of Turbine, and after how I see they are butchering Middle Earth. I don't know if I could bring myself to believe they could do justice to AD&D. They are turning Middle Earth into high fantasy garbage, and I believe Tolkien would be rolling over in his grave. I have seen the screenshots, and I am not really impressed, but I do understand that it is in early development. Graphics are not the most important to me, since I still love to play DOS games ::::20:: . I just really do think the style is appropriate for AD&D. I am glad that they are not going for the horrid look WoW has, which I think my niece could do better with crayons ::::02:: . Again I transgress sorry about that, random Blizzard bashing seems the norm lately for me.

I do hope the game can give the feeling I get from gaming, but if not I still have my 1st/2nd ed game I run, and I don't have to pay for it. As it stands I don't see any MMOG on the horizon, that could claim to be a RPG the only one bordering is Wish.

Wow I said great deal and really nothing, well then. Sorry for the length and the possible inadvertent convoluted style. Not targeting anyone, just answering questions and giving more insight.

As always take care, be safe, and farewell

aethalin

^._.^ meow!

Finwe · August 2004

Originally posted by Genjing

My point was that i do hear complaints about SOE, at all. When was the last time there was a thread complaining about Turbine's banning policies, or poor customer service, or being overly greedy?

No, instead of their customer service, you just hear about horrid their new games are. AC2, butchering of MEO, etc, etc.

Doesn't really matter how good the customer service is when the game sux.

Btw, integrated and entertaining combat is not combat like SWG where you press button #1 and they do some fancy crap. Thats a load of BS. And if thats how they do it in D&D, its not entertaining, its not action packed, and its not twitch based.

Originally posted by aethalin

they are butchering Middle Earth. I don't know if I could bring myself to believe they could do justice to AD&D. They are turning Middle Earth into high fantasy garbage, and I believe Tolkien would be rolling over in his grave. I have seen the screenshots, and I am not really impressed, but I do understand that it is in early development. Graphics are not the most important to me, since I still love to play DOS games .

Oh yep, I followed that game since it was being made by Sierra and about a year since they turned it over to turbine. About a month after reading up on all the stuff they did. I've been screaming its an abomination and Tolkien is rolling in his grave ever since.

Which has nothing to do with graphics, just read about the game world and how they're going to integrate all of the crap, and you'll feel the same way.

Btw, xplororor, you said, "AC vs EQ. AC got released in EQ's shadow. DDO will get released in EQ2's shadow."

In a way thats true. What happend was that EQ got a ton of marketing and publicity, why microsoft being the idiots they were, got next to none.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

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