PVP - the acceleration and the loss of strategy

Elikal · May 2008

My first experience with PVP was in SWG, and back then I enjoyed it tremendously. Tbh, I am not the best PVPer, but going into it was a kind of alternative to my always the same PVE.

Lately I have had some PVP in AoC. Now as the Devs of AoC so often say, the combat in AoC is more like Couterstrike. Now I have talked with a few of my friends, and now it seems to me as if there are two totally different concepts of PVP. The current trend, to my misfortune is a very fast paced PVP, or so you might say, as AoC and also WOW herald. The point in those "fast paced" PVPs is, you charge in, and when you start the combat itself, it is a matter of very few seconds until the combat situation is solved, meaning one or more are dead. In reality this means you die very fast, run back and whenever you see one of your men in combat there is little to help him, because usually until you reach him he is either victorious or dead. In those type of accelerated PVP usually 2-3 hits mean the death of the opponent.

In SWG it used to be decelerated PVP, and I much miss that type of PVP nowadays. It took considerbly longer to bring down an opponent, and as a result, there way MUCH more room for maneuvering and tactics.

Age of Conan has practically brought Counterstrike to MMOs, and it essentially IS countersrike combat in a fantasy world. It perfectly fits the Counterstrike-generation of fast death, run and death again. It is all entirely pushing the adrenaline and the fast - and I might say relatively mindless - PVP combat. Gone seem the days when PVP was slow paced and stratetic, when you could not mow down the enemy with 2-3 shots, when PVP was less like Counterstrike and more like Chess. I mean, each to his, but it seems gaming is generally accelerating.

If I take strategy games like "Act of War", I vividly recall it was all happend within seconds. There was virtually no breath to look at the landscape or think of a strategy, or deploy your troops. There was a crisis here and there and all without breaks. I mean, are there really only HYPER HYPER kids playing games these days? Where have the days gone when games like Civilization, Fantasy General, Heroes of Might and Magic or Jagged Alliance were fashion? Once I used to defend Games against all kind of accusation of brutalizing people. But seeing HOW tremendously games generally and PVP in particular changed from a tactical challange to one of ultra fast rush rush rush, I wonder what kind of change this causes in the mind of people?

Every new generation of games seems faster and more "mindless" than the ones we used to know. It also seems that the pressure it causes upon people, the stress it sets free, also constantly rises up to a point I seriiously feel is unhealthy. I mean, can it really be good to spend hours and hours in an uber rushed adrenaline pushing like this?? Makes me feel old, yes, but also sad of a change towards sheer "power power power" where nuance of gameplay of careful building and preparing are seemingly lost. And that also reflects in the way PVP has changed, it seems.

Supafroxx · May 2008

Originally posted by Elikal

My first experience with PVP was in SWG, and back then I enjoyed it tremendously. Tbh, I am not the best PVPer, but going into it was a kind of alternative to my always the same PVE.
Lately I have had some PVP in AoC. Now as the Devs of AoC so often say, the combat in AoC is more like Couterstrike. Now I have talked with a few of my friends, and now it seems to me as if there are two totally different concepts of PVP. The current trend, to my misfortune is a very fast paced PVP, or so you might say, as AoC and also WOW herald. The point in those "fast paced" PVPs is, you charge in, and when you start the combat itself, it is a matter of very few seconds until the combat situation is solved, meaning one or more are dead. In reality this means you die very fast, run back and whenever you see one of your men in combat there is little to help him, because usually until you reach him he is either victorious or dead. In those type of accelerated PVP usually 2-3 hits mean the death of the opponent.
In SWG it used to be decelerated PVP, and I much miss that type of PVP nowadays. It took considerbly longer to bring down an opponent, and as a result, there way MUCH more room for maneuvering and tactics.
Age of Conan has practically brought Counterstrike to MMOs, and it essentially IS countersrike combat in a fantasy world. It perfectly fits the Counterstrike-generation of fast death, run and death again. It is all entirely pushing the adrenaline and the fast - and I might say relatively mindless - PVP combat. Gone seem the days when PVP was slow paced and stratetic, when you could not mow down the enemy with 2-3 shots, when PVP was less like Counterstrike and more like Chess. I mean, each to his, but it seems gaming is generally accelerating.
If I take strategy games like "Act of War", I vividly recall it was all happend within seconds. There was virtually no breath to look at the landscape or think of a strategy, or deploy your troops. There was a crisis here and there and all without breaks. I mean, are there really only HYPER HYPER kids playing games these days? Where have the days gone when games like Civilization, Fantasy General, Heroes of Might and Magic or Jagged Alliance were fashion? Once I used to defend Games against all kind of accusation of brutalizing people. But seeing HOW tremendously games generally and PVP in particular changed from a tactical challange to one of ultra fast rush rush rush, I wonder what kind of change this causes in the mind of people?
Every new generation of games seems faster and more "mindless" than the ones we used to know. It also seems that the pressure it causes upon people, the stress it sets free, also constantly rises up to a point I seriiously feel is unhealthy. I mean, can it really be good to spend hours and hours in an uber rushed adrenaline pushing like this?? Makes me feel old, yes, but also sad of a change towards sheer "power power power" where nuance of gameplay of careful building and preparing are seemingly lost. And that also reflects in the way PVP has changed, it seems.

I can see where you're coming from, look how much Ritalin has sold since it's inception. All droll comments aside, it does seem this way, I can tell and I was born in '89. I think it's just a part of the evolution of society, now we're not limited so much by hardware and like our food, news and electronics much faster. Everyone's going somewhere and doing something, it's a rare occurrence for me to see a 8 year old have enough patience to watch an entire cartoon show much less play a strategic online game or console RPG. (remember when you beat Final Fantasy 7 at that age and read the dialog with 100% retension? Well ... maybe Ultima IV for you ) My neighbor's kid downloaded a game boy advance game in a different language than he could understand because he didn't want to take a little bit longer to find the English version.

The slower-paced strategic online gamer just isn't catered to 100% anymore, they've taken a back seat to the over-population of the "NOWNOWNOW" generation. That's not to say they don't get anything, Civilization IV is good, Starcraft 2 is on the way. Maybe you should play Dofus? It's a free tactical MMO, you'll get plenty of hours out of that. The makers of Dofus also started a project of the same type called Wakfu, check that stuff out. Don't be so disappointed, AoC is just for a different type of gamer. There's still strategy there, it's just split-second. I hope I helped a bit.

Elikal · May 2008

Originally posted by Supafroxx

Originally posted by Elikal

My first experience with PVP was in SWG, and back then I enjoyed it tremendously. Tbh, I am not the best PVPer, but going into it was a kind of alternative to my always the same PVE.
Lately I have had some PVP in AoC. Now as the Devs of AoC so often say, the combat in AoC is more like Couterstrike. Now I have talked with a few of my friends, and now it seems to me as if there are two totally different concepts of PVP. The current trend, to my misfortune is a very fast paced PVP, or so you might say, as AoC and also WOW herald. The point in those "fast paced" PVPs is, you charge in, and when you start the combat itself, it is a matter of very few seconds until the combat situation is solved, meaning one or more are dead. In reality this means you die very fast, run back and whenever you see one of your men in combat there is little to help him, because usually until you reach him he is either victorious or dead. In those type of accelerated PVP usually 2-3 hits mean the death of the opponent.
In SWG it used to be decelerated PVP, and I much miss that type of PVP nowadays. It took considerbly longer to bring down an opponent, and as a result, there way MUCH more room for maneuvering and tactics.
Age of Conan has practically brought Counterstrike to MMOs, and it essentially IS countersrike combat in a fantasy world. It perfectly fits the Counterstrike-generation of fast death, run and death again. It is all entirely pushing the adrenaline and the fast - and I might say relatively mindless - PVP combat. Gone seem the days when PVP was slow paced and stratetic, when you could not mow down the enemy with 2-3 shots, when PVP was less like Counterstrike and more like Chess. I mean, each to his, but it seems gaming is generally accelerating.
If I take strategy games like "Act of War", I vividly recall it was all happend within seconds. There was virtually no breath to look at the landscape or think of a strategy, or deploy your troops. There was a crisis here and there and all without breaks. I mean, are there really only HYPER HYPER kids playing games these days? Where have the days gone when games like Civilization, Fantasy General, Heroes of Might and Magic or Jagged Alliance were fashion? Once I used to defend Games against all kind of accusation of brutalizing people. But seeing HOW tremendously games generally and PVP in particular changed from a tactical challange to one of ultra fast rush rush rush, I wonder what kind of change this causes in the mind of people?
Every new generation of games seems faster and more "mindless" than the ones we used to know. It also seems that the pressure it causes upon people, the stress it sets free, also constantly rises up to a point I seriiously feel is unhealthy. I mean, can it really be good to spend hours and hours in an uber rushed adrenaline pushing like this?? Makes me feel old, yes, but also sad of a change towards sheer "power power power" where nuance of gameplay of careful building and preparing are seemingly lost. And that also reflects in the way PVP has changed, it seems.

I can see where you're coming from, look how much Ritalin has sold since it's inception. All droll comments aside, it does seem this way, I can tell and I was born in '89. I think it's just a part of the evolution of society, now we're not limited so much by hardware and like our food, news and electronics much faster. Everyone's going somewhere and doing something, it's a rare occurrence for me to see a 8 year old have enough patience to watch an entire cartoon show much less play a strategic online game or console RPG. (remember when you beat Final Fantasy 7 at that age and read the dialog with 100% retension? Well ... maybe Ultima IV for you ) My neighbor's kid downloaded a game boy advance game in a different language than he could understand because he didn't want to take a little bit longer to find the English version.

The slower-paced strategic online gamer just isn't catered to 100% anymore, they've taken a back seat to the over-population of the "NOWNOWNOW" generation. That's not to say they don't get anything, Civilization IV is good, Starcraft 2 is on the way. Maybe you should play Dofus? It's a free tactical MMO, you'll get plenty of hours out of that. The makers of Dofus also started a project of the same type called Wakfu, check that stuff out. Don't be so disappointed, AoC is just for a different type of gamer. There's still strategy there, it's just split-second. I hope I helped a bit.

Thats where it gets REALLY to spook me. If a 1989 born person tell me HE observes kids having no patience even to watch a cartoon! No offense, for me, being born 1971 you still are a kid! Well, sorta.

Btw, I played Ultima IV when it was new, and boy I had such a blast! We still had to draw our own maps of chequered paper and make long sheets with quests and hints ourselves. Today kids just click the intro cutscene away. I always think, hey those guys took months to make it, and spent lotsa dollars and it looks awesome! But apparently the attention span and patience is going down all the way. I really dont want to sound so negative, but what I see... it seriously frightens me. Where will that end? What kind of society will those kind of kids make?? I wonder.

I often hear thats how society evolves, and we have no choices. I we hear that form politicans often. There is no choice, its how it goes. I think there is ALWAYS choice, but people say there is no choice to comfort themselves in the choice they already made.

Supafroxx · May 2008

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Supafroxx

Originally posted by Elikal

My first experience with PVP was in SWG, and back then I enjoyed it tremendously. Tbh, I am not the best PVPer, but going into it was a kind of alternative to my always the same PVE.
Lately I have had some PVP in AoC. Now as the Devs of AoC so often say, the combat in AoC is more like Couterstrike. Now I have talked with a few of my friends, and now it seems to me as if there are two totally different concepts of PVP. The current trend, to my misfortune is a very fast paced PVP, or so you might say, as AoC and also WOW herald. The point in those "fast paced" PVPs is, you charge in, and when you start the combat itself, it is a matter of very few seconds until the combat situation is solved, meaning one or more are dead. In reality this means you die very fast, run back and whenever you see one of your men in combat there is little to help him, because usually until you reach him he is either victorious or dead. In those type of accelerated PVP usually 2-3 hits mean the death of the opponent.
In SWG it used to be decelerated PVP, and I much miss that type of PVP nowadays. It took considerbly longer to bring down an opponent, and as a result, there way MUCH more room for maneuvering and tactics.
Age of Conan has practically brought Counterstrike to MMOs, and it essentially IS countersrike combat in a fantasy world. It perfectly fits the Counterstrike-generation of fast death, run and death again. It is all entirely pushing the adrenaline and the fast - and I might say relatively mindless - PVP combat. Gone seem the days when PVP was slow paced and stratetic, when you could not mow down the enemy with 2-3 shots, when PVP was less like Counterstrike and more like Chess. I mean, each to his, but it seems gaming is generally accelerating.
If I take strategy games like "Act of War", I vividly recall it was all happend within seconds. There was virtually no breath to look at the landscape or think of a strategy, or deploy your troops. There was a crisis here and there and all without breaks. I mean, are there really only HYPER HYPER kids playing games these days? Where have the days gone when games like Civilization, Fantasy General, Heroes of Might and Magic or Jagged Alliance were fashion? Once I used to defend Games against all kind of accusation of brutalizing people. But seeing HOW tremendously games generally and PVP in particular changed from a tactical challange to one of ultra fast rush rush rush, I wonder what kind of change this causes in the mind of people?
Every new generation of games seems faster and more "mindless" than the ones we used to know. It also seems that the pressure it causes upon people, the stress it sets free, also constantly rises up to a point I seriiously feel is unhealthy. I mean, can it really be good to spend hours and hours in an uber rushed adrenaline pushing like this?? Makes me feel old, yes, but also sad of a change towards sheer "power power power" where nuance of gameplay of careful building and preparing are seemingly lost. And that also reflects in the way PVP has changed, it seems.

I can see where you're coming from, look how much Ritalin has sold since it's inception. All droll comments aside, it does seem this way, I can tell and I was born in '89. I think it's just a part of the evolution of society, now we're not limited so much by hardware and like our food, news and electronics much faster. Everyone's going somewhere and doing something, it's a rare occurrence for me to see a 8 year old have enough patience to watch an entire cartoon show much less play a strategic online game or console RPG. (remember when you beat Final Fantasy 7 at that age and read the dialog with 100% retension? Well ... maybe Ultima IV for you ) My neighbor's kid downloaded a game boy advance game in a different language than he could understand because he didn't want to take a little bit longer to find the English version.

The slower-paced strategic online gamer just isn't catered to 100% anymore, they've taken a back seat to the over-population of the "NOWNOWNOW" generation. That's not to say they don't get anything, Civilization IV is good, Starcraft 2 is on the way. Maybe you should play Dofus? It's a free tactical MMO, you'll get plenty of hours out of that. The makers of Dofus also started a project of the same type called Wakfu, check that stuff out. Don't be so disappointed, AoC is just for a different type of gamer. There's still strategy there, it's just split-second. I hope I helped a bit.

Thats where it gets REALLY to spook me. If a 1989 born person tell me HE observes kids having no patience even to watch a cartoon! No offense, for me, being born 1971 you still are a kid! Well, sorta.

Btw, I played Ultima IV when it was new, and boy I had such a blast! We still had to draw our own maps of chequered paper and make long sheets with quests and hints ourselves. Today kids just click the intro cutscene away. I always think, hey those guys took months to make it, and spent lotsa dollars and it looks awesome! But apparently the attenten span and patience is going down all the way. I really dont want to sound so negative, but what I see... it seriously frightens me. Where will that end? What kind of society will those kind of kids make?? I wonder.

I often hear thats how society evolves, and we have no choices. I we hear that form politicans often. There is no choice, its how it goes. I think there is ALWAYS choice, but people say there is no choice to comfort themselves in the choice they already made.

Hey, no offense taken. When I was around 11 I used to play AD&D with my brother and his friends, man we used to have a blast. I had a character named Anakaris (I was obsessed with fighting games as well, namely Darkstalkers) and I was the support/healer type of guy. We had this really geeky computer store clerk (awesome guy) as the Game Master. Man he used to set up some great games, we'd hang out and play for hours. I was never spoiled as a child, I did a lot of chores for my parents and other people to get the things I had. I saw other kids get $50.00 PSX games at the drop of a hat and I got one once every couple months if I was lucky. (I rented a lot and played at friend's houses, lol) I guess what I'm also saying is you tend to slowly enjoy what you've earned and these kids are tossed king's possessions when they want them.

You seem like you're getting a bit freaked out though, don't worry. A scientist will probably invent some kind of mild sedative that's mandatory for our 'Johnny Bravo' children. Until then don't have a nervous breakdown, relax and close your blinds when there's kids hopped up on CS: Source banging down your door wanting to steal your soul. LOL sorry it's really early, I had to throw in some humor.

Catizone · May 2008

Originally posted by Elikal

My first experience with PVP was in SWG, and back then I enjoyed it tremendously. Tbh, I am not the best PVPer, but going into it was a kind of alternative to my always the same PVE.
Lately I have had some PVP in AoC. Now as the Devs of AoC so often say, the combat in AoC is more like Couterstrike. Now I have talked with a few of my friends, and now it seems to me as if there are two totally different concepts of PVP. The current trend, to my misfortune is a very fast paced PVP, or so you might say, as AoC and also WOW herald. The point in those "fast paced" PVPs is, you charge in, and when you start the combat itself, it is a matter of very few seconds until the combat situation is solved, meaning one or more are dead. In reality this means you die very fast, run back and whenever you see one of your men in combat there is little to help him, because usually until you reach him he is either victorious or dead. In those type of accelerated PVP usually 2-3 hits mean the death of the opponent.
In SWG it used to be decelerated PVP, and I much miss that type of PVP nowadays. It took considerbly longer to bring down an opponent, and as a result, there way MUCH more room for maneuvering and tactics.
Age of Conan has practically brought Counterstrike to MMOs, and it essentially IS countersrike combat in a fantasy world. It perfectly fits the Counterstrike-generation of fast death, run and death again. It is all entirely pushing the adrenaline and the fast - and I might say relatively mindless - PVP combat. Gone seem the days when PVP was slow paced and stratetic, when you could not mow down the enemy with 2-3 shots, when PVP was less like Counterstrike and more like Chess. I mean, each to his, but it seems gaming is generally accelerating.
If I take strategy games like "Act of War", I vividly recall it was all happend within seconds. There was virtually no breath to look at the landscape or think of a strategy, or deploy your troops. There was a crisis here and there and all without breaks. I mean, are there really only HYPER HYPER kids playing games these days? Where have the days gone when games like Civilization, Fantasy General, Heroes of Might and Magic or Jagged Alliance were fashion? Once I used to defend Games against all kind of accusation of brutalizing people. But seeing HOW tremendously games generally and PVP in particular changed from a tactical challange to one of ultra fast rush rush rush, I wonder what kind of change this causes in the mind of people?
Every new generation of games seems faster and more "mindless" than the ones we used to know. It also seems that the pressure it causes upon people, the stress it sets free, also constantly rises up to a point I seriiously feel is unhealthy. I mean, can it really be good to spend hours and hours in an uber rushed adrenaline pushing like this?? Makes me feel old, yes, but also sad of a change towards sheer "power power power" where nuance of gameplay of careful building and preparing are seemingly lost. And that also reflects in the way PVP has changed, it seems.

True PvP belongs in FPS games like Quake and TF2 and UT.

Until the time comes when MMORPG's can support per pixel firing that's where it belongs.

Supafroxx · May 2008

Originally posted by Catizone

True PvP belongs in FPS games like Quake and TF2 and UT.
Until the time comes when MMORPG's can support per pixel firing that's where it belongs.

Plx 2 gief me munny 4 diskovary. ! n taek me 2 yur leedurr!

Elikal · May 2008

Originally posted by Supafroxx

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Supafroxx

Originally posted by Elikal

My first experience with PVP was in SWG, and back then I enjoyed it tremendously. Tbh, I am not the best PVPer, but going into it was a kind of alternative to my always the same PVE.
Lately I have had some PVP in AoC. Now as the Devs of AoC so often say, the combat in AoC is more like Couterstrike. Now I have talked with a few of my friends, and now it seems to me as if there are two totally different concepts of PVP. The current trend, to my misfortune is a very fast paced PVP, or so you might say, as AoC and also WOW herald. The point in those "fast paced" PVPs is, you charge in, and when you start the combat itself, it is a matter of very few seconds until the combat situation is solved, meaning one or more are dead. In reality this means you die very fast, run back and whenever you see one of your men in combat there is little to help him, because usually until you reach him he is either victorious or dead. In those type of accelerated PVP usually 2-3 hits mean the death of the opponent.
In SWG it used to be decelerated PVP, and I much miss that type of PVP nowadays. It took considerbly longer to bring down an opponent, and as a result, there way MUCH more room for maneuvering and tactics.
Age of Conan has practically brought Counterstrike to MMOs, and it essentially IS countersrike combat in a fantasy world. It perfectly fits the Counterstrike-generation of fast death, run and death again. It is all entirely pushing the adrenaline and the fast - and I might say relatively mindless - PVP combat. Gone seem the days when PVP was slow paced and stratetic, when you could not mow down the enemy with 2-3 shots, when PVP was less like Counterstrike and more like Chess. I mean, each to his, but it seems gaming is generally accelerating.
If I take strategy games like "Act of War", I vividly recall it was all happend within seconds. There was virtually no breath to look at the landscape or think of a strategy, or deploy your troops. There was a crisis here and there and all without breaks. I mean, are there really only HYPER HYPER kids playing games these days? Where have the days gone when games like Civilization, Fantasy General, Heroes of Might and Magic or Jagged Alliance were fashion? Once I used to defend Games against all kind of accusation of brutalizing people. But seeing HOW tremendously games generally and PVP in particular changed from a tactical challange to one of ultra fast rush rush rush, I wonder what kind of change this causes in the mind of people?
Every new generation of games seems faster and more "mindless" than the ones we used to know. It also seems that the pressure it causes upon people, the stress it sets free, also constantly rises up to a point I seriiously feel is unhealthy. I mean, can it really be good to spend hours and hours in an uber rushed adrenaline pushing like this?? Makes me feel old, yes, but also sad of a change towards sheer "power power power" where nuance of gameplay of careful building and preparing are seemingly lost. And that also reflects in the way PVP has changed, it seems.

I can see where you're coming from, look how much Ritalin has sold since it's inception. All droll comments aside, it does seem this way, I can tell and I was born in '89. I think it's just a part of the evolution of society, now we're not limited so much by hardware and like our food, news and electronics much faster. Everyone's going somewhere and doing something, it's a rare occurrence for me to see a 8 year old have enough patience to watch an entire cartoon show much less play a strategic online game or console RPG. (remember when you beat Final Fantasy 7 at that age and read the dialog with 100% retension? Well ... maybe Ultima IV for you ) My neighbor's kid downloaded a game boy advance game in a different language than he could understand because he didn't want to take a little bit longer to find the English version.

The slower-paced strategic online gamer just isn't catered to 100% anymore, they've taken a back seat to the over-population of the "NOWNOWNOW" generation. That's not to say they don't get anything, Civilization IV is good, Starcraft 2 is on the way. Maybe you should play Dofus? It's a free tactical MMO, you'll get plenty of hours out of that. The makers of Dofus also started a project of the same type called Wakfu, check that stuff out. Don't be so disappointed, AoC is just for a different type of gamer. There's still strategy there, it's just split-second. I hope I helped a bit.

Thats where it gets REALLY to spook me. If a 1989 born person tell me HE observes kids having no patience even to watch a cartoon! No offense, for me, being born 1971 you still are a kid! Well, sorta.

Btw, I played Ultima IV when it was new, and boy I had such a blast! We still had to draw our own maps of chequered paper and make long sheets with quests and hints ourselves. Today kids just click the intro cutscene away. I always think, hey those guys took months to make it, and spent lotsa dollars and it looks awesome! But apparently the attenten span and patience is going down all the way. I really dont want to sound so negative, but what I see... it seriously frightens me. Where will that end? What kind of society will those kind of kids make?? I wonder.

I often hear thats how society evolves, and we have no choices. I we hear that form politicans often. There is no choice, its how it goes. I think there is ALWAYS choice, but people say there is no choice to comfort themselves in the choice they already made.

Hey, no offense taken. When I was around 11 I used to play AD&D with my brother and his friends, man we used to have a blast. I had a character named Anakaris (I was obsessed with fighting games as well, namely Darkstalkers) and I was the support/healer type of guy. We had this really geeky computer store clerk (awesome guy) as the Game Master. Man he used to set up some great games, we'd hang out and play for hours. I was never spoiled as a child, I did a lot of chores for my parents and other people to get the things I had. I saw other kids get $50.00 PSX games at the drop of a hat and I got one once every couple months if I was lucky. (I rented a lot and played at friend's houses, lol) I guess what I'm also saying is you tend to slowly enjoy what you've earned and these kids are tossed king's possessions when they want them.

You seem like you're getting a bit freaked out though, don't worry. A scientist will probably invent some kind of mild sedative that's mandatory for our 'Johnny Bravo' children. Until then don't have a nervous breakdown, relax and close your blinds when there's kids hopped up on CS: Source banging down your door wanting to steal your soul. LOL sorry it's really early, I had to throw in some humor.

Cool, I come from Pen and Paper games too - basically because there WERE no computers more or less when I was a kid. Though it was the German "Dark Eye" I was hooked it, and I usually was game master. I really enjoyed this, and that always formed my expectations in MMOs as well, seeing a game world more as being a hero in the story than gathering kill statistics or what.

I mean, blast, I really learned something about what it is to be human in those early Pen and Paper games, and also in the early MMOs. But it takes time and a certain pathing to understand whats going on with live. ...

Lobotomist · May 2008

Originally posted by Elikal

I completely agree with you.

I still hope that WAR will go for more strategic aproach , and not for bunnyhop for teh win

turnipz · May 2008

It is nothing like chess man, most skills are designed with 1 purpose in mind and a 10 year old can figure out what that purpose is. Freezing someone and kiting them is not "strategy", its more like common sense, I think a game like CS with unlimited variables has more strategy than any mmorpg ever could even if it relies on twitch.

Agricola1 · May 2008

Well to be quite honest I don't think it should take 3 minutes of beating a person on the head with a massive battle axe to kill them. That just isn't fun, it's nauseating. If I want to play chess or Civ 4 I will, but if I want to waste punks in AoC I firmly believe that after a few hits with an edged weapon they should die.

I played SWG all those many years ago and EVE, no I'm tired of hitting a macro and going to make a sandwich. Win or lose it's bloody boring, I like to play BF 2142 these days and when you unload a clip into a guys face he should die. Much the same as impaling someone, they should collapse not lose 3% health.

Well done AoC if they're going the way of faster more brutal combat, less room for macros and punks that logout mid combat because they can see that they can't win and will die in 15 minutes, so just turn the computer off.

KaltesHerz · May 2008

Ah the good ol days of gaming. Let's see, what did I play.

D&D, AD&D, Rifts, Shadowrun, Mechwarrior, Cyberpunk, Robotech, Warhammer (didn't like it), Gurps, the dozen or so games my friends and I designed and made.

Hell we had Segas, Nintendos, Ataris and computers but then we still preferred PnP. I think then it was because we had time, we could spend time to make ourselves happy. Now days it's so hard to find time or for that matter someone else that's interested in a PnP game that you, or I should say I turn to the instant gratification of a videogame.

On to pvp, hell yah I remember the mass land battles in SWG. I was a master commando/ tk. I loved unloading my PPC into snipers or lobbing mad grenades into stackers trying to take down a jedi. Hell I had a jedi buddy that acted as bait for me so I could blow the living snot out of people. I remember people used to whine and bitch about how bad commandos were in pvp. Problem is those people tried to play a commando like they were a stacker melee'r instead of what they were, ranged devestation. (well and it was expensive to be ranged devestation, PPCs,'nades and shit were expensive to aquire if they were of any decent quality)

As far as pvp as a whole goes, I don't like it. And I'm liking it less and less. MOST games place to much importance on gear so regardless of your twitching you're gonna die if you're not well equipped. (WoW as an example) I remember my first BG in WoW, I was going through the combat logs and noticing I was taking more damage from the enchants on weapons than from the weapons themselves. Then there was the BGs where I'd get slaughtered because the toons were tweaked with so much blue shit that it must've taken buying money from gold sellers to have accomplished it.

Uh,, I forgot what else I was gonna say.

UsualSuspect · May 2008

Originally posted by Agricola1

Well to be quite honest I don't think it should take 3 minutes of beating a person on the head with a massive battle axe to kill them. That just isn't fun, it's nauseating. If I want to play chess or Civ 4 I will, but if I want to waste punks in AoC I firmly believe that after a few hits with an edged weapon they should die.
I played SWG all those many years ago and EVE, no I'm tired of hitting a macro and going to make a sandwich. Win or lose it's bloody boring, I like to play BF 2142 these days and when you unload a clip into a guys face he should die. Much the same as impaling someone, they should collapse not lose 3% health.
Well done AoC if they're going the way of faster more brutal combat, less room for macros and punks that logout mid combat because they can see that they can't win and will die in 15 minutes, so just turn the computer off.

You're seeing MMO's without the RPG bit on the end. In all roleplay games that I can remember, the table type such as AD&D, health was a level of a characters ability. So a level 1 with 4 hitpoints would die really easily, but a level 20 with 200 hitpoints was harder to defeat. It's not like Unreal Tournament where you have 100 health and a rocket will likely gib you, its a measure of power.

An example would be easier:

A level 1 faces off against another level 1, called A & B. A takes a strike at B with a sword and hits for 1D8 damage, rolls a 6 for damage and knocks B down to -2 hitpoints. Character B just didn't have the skill to fend off the attack.

A level 20 faces off against another level 20, also called A & B. A takes a strike at B with a sword and hits for 1D8 damage, rolling 6 and taking B's hitpoints down to 194. The battle continues. Visually, it can be described as A attacking and B managing to parry the blow but suffer slightly from the impact, or moving with the blow so it hits for less effect, a scratch across the flesh perhaps.

It's a bit stupid really, in every table top game I've played with hitpoints, one of the players has always started the, "Isn't this a bit dumb?" argument, but hey, it's where RPG's started and they haven't changed a lot since.

Personally, I prefer the more realistic combat myself, which is why I always liked systems like Rolemaster (if anyone knows that one). One good hit and you can die with your head rolling across the floor. It also has hitpoints, but the critical effects more than balance that out with some gruesome results.

Agricola1 · May 2008

I'm sorry but I disagree that RPG means long combat times, RPG means role play game and playing a role has little to do with speed of combat in my opinion. When I was a kid and addicted to those "Fighting Fantasy" books where you roled a dice and had skill and stamina it was different and more than 20 years has passed.

If you enjoy longer combat times fine, but don't try and pretend there's some massive hidden strategy that a 10 year old couldn't work out in a matter of minutes. My 10 year old son has mastered Rome and Medevial total war, just from observing me playing. He mashed the AI on normal settings first go, it's really only a matter of taste. RPG means roleplay game, not initiate combat, hit the macro and make a sandwich.

UsualSuspect · May 2008

Originally posted by Agricola1

I'm sorry but I disagree that RPG means long combat times, RPG means role play game and playing a role has little to do with speed of combat in my opinion. When I was a kid and addicted to those "Fighting Fantasy" books where you roled a dice and had skill and stamina it was different and more than 20 years has passed.
If you enjoy longer combat times fine, but don't try and pretend there's some massive hidden strategy that a 10 year old couldn't work out in a matter of minutes. My 10 year old son has mastered Rome and Medevial total war, just from observing me playing. He mashed the AI on normal settings first go, it's really only a matter of taste. RPG means roleplay game, not initiate combat, hit the macro and make a sandwich.

I'm not saying RPG means long combat times, I'm saying that since RPG systems have been around, more and more hitpoints are usually what you get. More hitpoints means longer combats. As I said, thats why I prefer systems like Rolemaster where you can kill someone in one shot if you're lucky or skilled enough. It looks to me like AoC is going for the Rolemaster style of combat, which should keep me pleased at least.

Inf666 · May 2008

I would love to see Counterstrike in a MMO. Why? In Counterstrike you need to be good to win and I am not talking about response time or movement or aiming. Its hard to believe but you need to play CS strategical if you are up against other good players. Its not about the fight itself anymore, its about adapting to your enemy and playing in a way that assures you victory. In CS positioning and timing is way more important than aim or response time. You have to strategize and decide fast. Just because you die from two shots doesn't mean that its brainless action.

Elikal · May 2008

Originally posted by KaltesHerz

Ah the good ol days of gaming. Let's see, what did I play.
D&D, AD&D, Rifts, Shadowrun, Mechwarrior, Cyberpunk, Robotech, Warhammer (didn't like it), Gurps, the dozen or so games my friends and I designed and made.

Hell we had Segas, Nintendos, Ataris and computers but then we still preferred PnP. I think then it was because we had time, we could spend time to make ourselves happy. Now days it's so hard to find time or for that matter someone else that's interested in a PnP game that you, or I should say I turn to the instant gratification of a videogame.

On to pvp, hell yah I remember the mass land battles in SWG. I was a master commando/ tk. I loved unloading my PPC into snipers or lobbing mad grenades into stackers trying to take down a jedi. Hell I had a jedi buddy that acted as bait for me so I could blow the living snot out of people. I remember people used to whine and bitch about how bad commandos were in pvp. Problem is those people tried to play a commando like they were a stacker melee'r instead of what they were, ranged devestation. (well and it was expensive to be ranged devestation, PPCs,'nades and shit were expensive to aquire if they were of any decent quality)

As far as pvp as a whole goes, I don't like it. And I'm liking it less and less. MOST games place to much importance on gear so regardless of your twitching you're gonna die if you're not well equipped. (WoW as an example) I remember my first BG in WoW, I was going through the combat logs and noticing I was taking more damage from the enchants on weapons than from the weapons themselves. Then there was the BGs where I'd get slaughtered because the toons were tweaked with so much blue shit that it must've taken buying money from gold sellers to have accomplished it.

Uh,, I forgot what else I was gonna say.

Yes yes, it is very true these days PVP is too much based on good gear, and if you dont have it, you can do what you want you just die. Essentially its so with all MMOs heavily relying on gear, thats why I will always hold City of Heroes in the greatest esteem.

As to the Counterstrike people here: well each to his, thats fine. But there already IS counterstrike and UT and whatnot. Why import it into MMORPGs? In that uber fast PVP you cant make any strategy, so its bascially all one big gankfest, and sorry thats just a tad too mindless and un-challenging to me. To me a challenge is to planning, to strategy, to tactics not to luck and nimble fingers.

The big problem with the latter is, sure there is always a percentage of people with really quick reflexes and nimble fingers. But 90% of people just have normal reaction times, and if you base PVP too much on the PLAYERS abilities and too less on the CHARACTERs, you just rule out most people. And the simple fact is, if I want to test MY skills against another I practice soccer or karate in RL. Going to a computer game *usually* implies people escape their REAL skills and go into FANTASY. If you want to test YOUR skills, god make SPORTS!

Hvymetal · May 2008

I agree a lot with the OP regarding PvP, most of it is even more mindless now than it ever was.

But regarding with the quickness of FPS there is a difference as well, personally I like to use an example from three different games I used to play on X-Box to highlight thhe various speeds. At one end you have Halo, very fast paced. Move fast, weapons like rocket launchers, people Bunny-Hopping, ect. Seems to appeal to younger gamers and most people are constantly moving. At the other end you have Ghost Recon, a much slower paced game where it often only takes 1 hit to drop someone providing you are accurate. Most games I played on were set to no respawns, so everyone tended to play a lot slower and more carefully. Ghost Recon seemed to appeal to an older player base. In the middile you had Rainbow Six 3. Medium paced, a little harder to die. Had respawns usually & people tended to not play as carefully as in host Recon & not quite as fast paced as Halo.

Rolemaster, that brings back memories along with MERPS. Best critical hit sytem I have ever seen, combats tended to take a long time generally and it was rare to see someone die from HP loss, they almost always die from a critical hit. Best saying I ever heard regarding that game, "Rolemaster: Live by the sword, die by the crit".

Sain34 · May 2008

Unfortunatly it is not just pvp that is trending this way, it is all mmos. The games are becoming less and less about a server-wide community of people and transforming into small squad based combat games. it's kind of sad really.

Hvymetal · May 2008

Originally posted by Sain34

Unfortunatly it is not just pvp that is trending this way, it is all mmos. The games are becoming less and less about a server-wide community of people and transforming into small squad based combat games. it's kind of sad really.

Aye, and really I think this is just a reflection of the way society is going. Community & caring seem to be giving way to greed & instant gratification.

Was talking about a subject similar to this at work tonight, exept it was centered around the way childhood is now. When I was younger I would leave for school in the morning, stop at home briefly to drop my stuff off & then my mom wouldn;t see me till 7:00-8:30PM. Was running around with my friends most the day. Now parents don;t dare let their kids play outside and personally I think our social structure is suffering for it....... & all this is reflected in the way games are going.

paulscott · May 2008

ADD is the side effect of information overload, and it's everywhere in our world.

a few minutes on the forum an you've found yourself more information than our ancestors did in their whole life. We weren't made for our age and these are the side effects. might as well google for the video 'shift happens' to boot.

yoni333 · May 2008

i think it need to take 3 min to kill a person with sward and 1 min with axe

Thunderous · May 2008

I have yet to play AoC but to my knowledge they don't have "block" options. If i can't use my shield or weapon to block an incoming attack then it isn't a true FPS. If I can't take cover, squat, roll, etc, it isn't a true FPS.

I prefer combat in which my ability to aim and fire successfully matters.

If we both have guns, even if yours is more powerful, I should be able to damage you. Same with a sword. If I acutally hit you with a sword, it should hurt you at least some, regardless of level or character skill level.

Apraxis · May 2008

Originally posted by Elikal

My first experience with PVP was in SWG, and back then I enjoyed it tremendously. Tbh, I am not the best PVPer, but going into it was a kind of alternative to my always the same PVE.
Lately I have had some PVP in AoC. Now as the Devs of AoC so often say, the combat in AoC is more like Couterstrike. Now I have talked with a few of my friends, and now it seems to me as if there are two totally different concepts of PVP. The current trend, to my misfortune is a very fast paced PVP, or so you might say, as AoC and also WOW herald. The point in those "fast paced" PVPs is, you charge in, and when you start the combat itself, it is a matter of very few seconds until the combat situation is solved, meaning one or more are dead. In reality this means you die very fast, run back and whenever you see one of your men in combat there is little to help him, because usually until you reach him he is either victorious or dead. In those type of accelerated PVP usually 2-3 hits mean the death of the opponent.
In SWG it used to be decelerated PVP, and I much miss that type of PVP nowadays. It took considerbly longer to bring down an opponent, and as a result, there way MUCH more room for maneuvering and tactics.
Age of Conan has practically brought Counterstrike to MMOs, and it essentially IS countersrike combat in a fantasy world. It perfectly fits the Counterstrike-generation of fast death, run and death again. It is all entirely pushing the adrenaline and the fast - and I might say relatively mindless - PVP combat. Gone seem the days when PVP was slow paced and stratetic, when you could not mow down the enemy with 2-3 shots, when PVP was less like Counterstrike and more like Chess. I mean, each to his, but it seems gaming is generally accelerating.
If I take strategy games like "Act of War", I vividly recall it was all happend within seconds. There was virtually no breath to look at the landscape or think of a strategy, or deploy your troops. There was a crisis here and there and all without breaks. I mean, are there really only HYPER HYPER kids playing games these days? Where have the days gone when games like Civilization, Fantasy General, Heroes of Might and Magic or Jagged Alliance were fashion? Once I used to defend Games against all kind of accusation of brutalizing people. But seeing HOW tremendously games generally and PVP in particular changed from a tactical challange to one of ultra fast rush rush rush, I wonder what kind of change this causes in the mind of people?
Every new generation of games seems faster and more "mindless" than the ones we used to know. It also seems that the pressure it causes upon people, the stress it sets free, also constantly rises up to a point I seriiously feel is unhealthy. I mean, can it really be good to spend hours and hours in an uber rushed adrenaline pushing like this?? Makes me feel old, yes, but also sad of a change towards sheer "power power power" where nuance of gameplay of careful building and preparing are seemingly lost. And that also reflects in the way PVP has changed, it seems.

Well.. i personally see it a lil bit different.. you describe two concept of combat, two extremes, and in my humble opinion, both are the wrong way.

Look, a pvp battle should be over within one minute if one combatant is superior to the other. But at the same time it could take as long as half an hour, if both are more or less even. There should be tactical depth, a lot of counter tactics, a lot of possibilities to negate damage or attacks. And then it is a good pvp system in my opinion. And this is true for FPS, RTS or MMORPGs.. and i guess a lot of die hard pvp players will agree with me there.

Look at games like UT, it is incridible fast paced, much more as i think it should be, but on the other side, two good player can fight a very long fight against each other without dying. Or you can multikill a couple of ppls in a few seconds. As i said, it is a lil bit two fast paced, you should have at least a few seconds or a minute(more like 30 sec.) to react.. and well in UT you have situations where you cant react anymore.. and that is not a good thing.. but on the other side, it should not take forever, if you can quite certain say, that one player is superior to the other.. so it should end immediatly.

With other words you need some time, to give you the chance to react(maybe around 15-30), where nothing is lost.. but after that in another 15-45 sec. the fight should be over, if the other one is just a lot better than you, or you could counter it, and finish the other one within another minute off.

Another example would be the RTS DoW, you can win a 1vs1(or 2vs2) within a few minutes, but you could also fight for a very long time.

A mmorpg example would be UO, the fights there could be over very fast, and at the same time take almost forever.

Agricola1 · May 2008

Originally posted by Thunderous

I have yet to play AoC but to my knowledge they don't have "block" options. If i can't use my shield or weapon to block an incoming attack then it isn't a true FPS. If I can't take cover, squat, roll, etc, it isn't a true FPS.
I prefer combat in which my ability to aim and fire successfully matters.
If we both have guns, even if yours is more powerful, I should be able to damage you. Same with a sword. If I acutally hit you with a sword, it should hurt you at least some, regardless of level or character skill level.

AoC does allow you to actively block the enemy with your shield, AoC rocks.

CleffyII · May 2008

I disagree that CounterStrike is faced paced rush and die no strategy. Thats Unreal, Quake, Half-life, Battlefield that are like that. Counter Strike you move cautiously and strike at right times, because you only have 1 life per round so if you die you have to wait for the better people to finish. I don't find any strategy to pvp in mmos. Best Gear Wins. You don't even have twitch controls to atleast put a challenge to it, just stand in place and repeat the same 3 shortcuts.

yoni333 · May 2008

I DONT THINK THAT THE FACT YOU HAVE ENDLESS LIFE IN MMOPS GAMES MAKE THEM WITHOUT STRATEGY ITS DEPEND ON YOU AND ON YOUR FRIENDS IN THE SERVR

B- ITS TRUE THE BEST GEAR WINS BUT AT EQIUL GEAR ITS DEPEND YOUR PLAIN

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PVP - the acceleration and the loss of strategy

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PVP - the acceleration and the loss of strategy

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