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PvP containment made WoW boring.
WhiteknightI
Member Posts: 63
WoW PvP:
WoW was at it's height imo when there were wars, raids and TM/SS type battles all over Azeroth.
I enjoy Open PvP, that's why I joined a PvP server. unfortunately PvP rarely happens on PvP servers. You'll get a few fight here and there, but nothing like you did Pre-Battlegrounds.
Ganking: Ganking to me is just a part of war. I've been ganked, I've done the ganking, and I've been corpsecamped for long periods of time in retaliation. I never once have complained about it. That's war. I enjoyed UO for the same reason. Open pvp keeps the game fresh all the time.
Things like this kept WoW thrilling and unpredictable. Unforunately the game has become much too instanced. I, like most other people, enjoyed the occasional Battleground. I don't enjoy the fact that's where the only pvp takes place now.
Their Arenas system is a joke as well. Exploited, cheated, and you can't ever really get a fair fight between the class combos.
So while WoW has some great features I find that it's endgame is lacking any depth, pvp in the game is crumbling, and the way gear is acquired is quite unfair.
Comments
I really have nothing to add except you put to words everything I wanted to say about it. What I enjoyed more about UO than WoW was since there was no level system the world had no progression in monster level so running around you could force your attacker into a monster, or chase your prey into one as well, in any area you went through.
I think UO Gankfest was much more fun than WoW's at its prime. Nothing was more fun than a guild war outside your friends keep.
anyway, I agree with you on how stale WoW feels. I'm tired of running the same handful of instances and hoping for the same hand full of drops. Maybe they will change things up a bit with their outdoor PVP zones in the new expansion, but I don't really see too many people playing in the current PVP zones. Its like UO, post Trammel.
For a while, I enjoyed PvP in WoW. I went to battlegrounds, I did arena religiously, and I took great pleasure in sapping/distracting auctioneers and bankers. But I don't PvP anymore. It lost it's fun, because all along it was really a joke, now it's just plain sour.
Battlegrounds are rigged, Arena is to easy to cheat in although it is much more real than the battlegrounds. World PvP is really the only real PvP I've found in WoW that really sparks an interest. I love world PvP, and I would much rather have an all out brawl in Halaa than head to a battleground.
I have two servers, one is PvE, the other is PvP. Funny thing is, I see more world PvP on the PvE server, lol.
Either way, WoW is my PvE game now. I gave up on PvP. It's all about raids and group events. I have other games for PvP.
There is still plenty of world pvp in WOW but i know this may be odd but you actually have to kill people to start it. SSO on my server has lots of bones from pvp lying around the place.
Yeah the Southshore raids were fun, but to be fair they crashed a lot of servers.
Also eventually they got kind of old.
If nothing else had happened I do not think the SS/TM raids would have lasted forever. They would probably have cropped up here and there. But right around the time BG's were getting introduced I think a lot of people were scrambling to find some other activity other than the zerg back and forth of SS/TM raids or occupying the griffon in EPL or the hunting camp.
It seems a shame that that kind of world PvP just plain dried up and probably BG's/Arenas are partially to blame. Although to some extent it is the gear grind that is the main culprit for that aspect of things.
But in the end I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that WoW world PvP never had or has anything to it. You can't control anything, you can't work for anything. It simply lacks any real meat. Its like trying to eat a dozen donuts the first 2 are really good then after about 6 you are like "I'm not really full, but man I can't eat anymore of these"
All people wound up doing was a perpetual search for some of action and that got rather old. I am not saying a game like Eve which has much more World PvP meat on it will have more action per se. And searching for action can be tricky and time consuming. But in a game like Eve you can spend major amounts of time doing PvP activities and expect to make progress.
It is an often overlooked fact of warfare that simply finding the enemy is one of the most important things. That is why all forces in the field have some sort of scout(s).
The fact is that WoW never had much "World" in ts world PvP. And those games that do have a lot of "World" in the world PvP face significant problems that WoW is not equipped to handled. Problem like finding the enemy, consequences for the world when you fight, reasons to fight. Etc.
Many of the cool apsects of world PvP are actually doubled edged swords. When you look at it in hindsight rather than nostalgia I think most people can see that really WoW is just very poorly suited to deal with negative aspects of world PvP.
I don't think world PvP could ever have really lasted in WoW, not in any real sense. Sure there would be some action to spice things up I would assume. But not real and reliable fun.
There is still plenty of world pvp in WOW but i know this may be odd but you actually have to kill people to start it. SSO on my server has lots of bones from pvp lying around the place.
This was always the case. That is why level 60's would gank at the hunting camp. It was to lure other lvl 60s to the area by making the newbs complain. Or a guild killing everyone at the EPL griffon station.But in the end this just illustrates why WoW is poorly suited for world PvP. I don't want to use the tired phrase of "it needs to mean something" since these are just games. But world PvP just get a whole lot more action when people feel that something in game is at stake. There need to have rally points and common cause and objectives.
One of the biggest issues for any game that wants to have world PvP is that you need to create action for people.
But there are two major obstacles to that, there is the "What does that get me?" impulse of all players and there is the natural consquences of having vast amounts of space to deal. How do you cover all of say EPL back in the day to actually find some action? If you chase one guy do you miss an entier group of guys? etc etc
Developer rarely look at the logistics aspects of world PvP. It is one of the major reasons most MMOs have crappy world PvP.
WoW PVP is a joke, always has been. It's just another "grind" albeit one that requires you kill other players vice killing AI mobs in set encounters.
World PvP on Perenolde is a JOKE. The alliance control most of the points.. most of the time. It's really rare to see people care about it.
With the ARENA system in now, PvP is an even worse grind. While I applauded the BG system initially... AV is just a PvE race with some incidental PVP and the rest get boring pretty fast. Toss in the BOTTERS and it's a mess.
I am amused by Blizz's lame attempt to bring what WAR will have from the get go, meaningful, fun RVR/PVP combat.
Always change your signature.
It's true what the OP says - WoW was a more interesting game to play pre-battlegrounds. Even though I'm one of those sad fluffy-bunny-care-bear types who would rather gnaw off his furry paw than gank, the sense of danger, of needing to watch your surrounding for enemy players, of sneaking across zones via little-used paths, added a lot of depth to the game.
But ultimately that 'meat' factor is still missing. It's probably why they introduced BG - except instead of giving us steak, we ended up with limp, half-cooked, soggy tofu.
I personally enjoyed battlegrounds quite a bit. It's just a shame that after three years there's still only four of them. As far ganking, well, I just simply think people who gank are quite lame. Open pvp encourages ganking and griefing, so it's very understandable why the vast majority of gamers dislike open pvp. Now, don't get me wrong, high level zones that have open pvp are great, especially when there's purpose to it. But low level griefing and ganking is completely unnecessary in mmos.
If you look hard enough, you can always find something missing. I can't say I can relate, I always seem to find some world PVP, wherever I go at any level.
Next time you play a MMO with PVP in it don't play 10 hours a day.
Arenas arn't rigged at all ! Once you reach 1800+ that is where you need Team work and knowledge of how the other team plays and their Tactics. I hate it how poeple claim arena are unbalanced. You just need to find people who know how to play and know thier stuff. Also playing 10 games a week is hardly doing any arenas. You need to play more then 10 and play and see what works and what doesn't. Most of the people who complain about Arena are the one who such at them and are stuck at less then 1500
When poeple say PVP is just a big grind then you need to check the type of Genre you're playing. Timesink - better gear. New Tier = New grind it isn't hard to understand. Allmost every MMO is like that.
You don't have to do Arena to enjoy PVP. Go to isle of Quel' Danas there is plantly of World PVP going on there. Just bescuase you can't gank people in South Shore or Blackrock Mountain doesn't mean workd PVP is died. You check what the Heroic Dailies is and camp the entrance or the Meeting stone.
World PVP is like Looking for work in real life. If you sit your ass in the City(Your House) then "work" aka world PVP won't come to you're door step and say here is some work just sign the app.
All MMO's have grinds. If you don't like to Grind then MMO's are not for you.
Next time you play a MMO with PVP in it don't play 10 hours a day.
Arenas arn't rigged at all ! Once you reach 1800+ that is where you need Team work and knowledge of how the other team plays and their Tactics. I hate it how poeple claim arena are unbalanced. You just need to find people who know how to play and know thier stuff. Also playing 10 games a week is hardly doing any arenas. You need to play more then 10 and play and see what works and what doesn't. Most of the people who complain about Arena are the one who such at them and are stuck at less then 1500
When poeple say PVP is just a big grind then you need to check the type of Genre you're playing. Timesink - better gear. New Tier = New grind it isn't hard to understand. Allmost every MMO is like that.
You don't have to do Arena to enjoy PVP. Go to isle of Quel' Danas there is plantly of World PVP going on there. Just bescuase you can't gank people in South Shore or Blackrock Mountain doesn't mean workd PVP is died. You check what the Heroic Dailies is and camp the entrance or the Meeting stone.
World PVP is like Looking for work in real life. If you sit your ass in the City(Your House) then "work" aka world PVP won't come to you're door step and say here is some work just sign the app.
First off, you know nothing of what you talk about other than your own bias experiences when it comes to arenas... I myself have played at 1300 rating all the way to 2100 and there is no such thing as balance (Rogue, Warrior, Paladin, and Priest) ... Yeah you might be able to GET LUCKY and kill a team that dominates you, but there are to many instances of Class > Gear > Skill, especially in 2v2's. Secondly, there was a lot of win trading and team selling that most of the matches you heard people complaining about were full venge teams at 1500-1600 rating half way thru the season. Also, you cannot sit there and tell me that Warlock and Druid 2v2's are not OP. Of course they need some skill... But the CC is never ending. You can just Cyclone and root spam a person and then fear spam until Cyclone and root diminishing returns are gone over and over rinse and repeat. And finally, as far as your 10 games is concerned. That is how all high end teams play it that are smart. You play 10 games, cuz half the time you win 3-6 points and risk 30... So why play when the cons so outweigh the pros. Smart Arena PvPers play 40-50 games the first week of creating their team so they can get to that 1800 mark and then start the 10 games a week, that way they start out getting their points quick.All in all, to say Arena is not rigged, or class biase, is more ignorant and misinformed than racial slurs and stereotypes.
I'm just curious as to how is his bias expirience any less valid than yours?
Cuz i was speaking on behalf of 100's of guildies and multiple RL friends that feel the same way... This is the first person i have come across that has thought otherwise... That bein said, you may say that my opinion is bias, but my opinions are based on facts... Look at the Percentage of druids on high end arena teams and tell me its not coincidence.
Lock - Druid combination is easyer, but it hardly makes any other combination imposible. It's another flavor of the month feature, it's been an integral part of WoW since the begining, and I would argue one of the major reasons the game stays fresh as long as it does.
So many people ask for balance, like some kind of a holy grail of MMO PVP, can you imagine how boring it would become if everyone realy was perfectly balanced, this way you have to constantly adjust your strategy. There was a time when rogues ruled, then shadow priests, then warlocks, it keeps people playing and rediscovering the game for such a long time.
So, I'm not saying your facts are wrong, you are using the correct data, but your premise is wrong. You can have as much fun as you want with PVP in WoW as long as you know what you want. If fun is not what you are looking for, if you want to be a number 1 arena team, well then be prepared to compromise. If you hate arena that much, then there are other ways to PVP. Battlegrounds are much less class oriented and you can always win if you can get some solid tactics underway. If you hate the very idea of contained PVP, whole Azeroth, and Outland too is your playground.
The only thing left to complain if none of that can satisfy you is the lack of world PVP objectives, well, you would probably be right to complain, because again, it's a fact that there are very few of them, but it's not a fact that world PVP objectives is the only way to have fun PVPing.
My point was that Pre-Battlegrounds on a pvp server I didn't have to look for it. It was there in my face and called my level 60 into action. Good times were had.
No one looks for pvp in the world anymore hardly. It's about hitting the spacebar in AV for your next epic. It's not like a big grind. IT IS. They're awarding epics to those that hang out in Battlegrounds the most. Real epic PvP. Then top it off with their failed PvE objectives of towers here and there.
Before BGs, I didn't have to "work" for pvp. It was happening. Everywhere.
I gotta agree with the OP on this. The world has become really empty except for various mat grinders, alt levelers and the occassional gank here and there (cudos to those who do). I find it pretty sad that there are all these beautiful zones that blizzard created and once you're past a certain level you're not very likely to ever feel the urge to go there again. Maybe Im straying offtopic now but I believe its all connected, personally Id like to see the level zone philosophy in the trash bin. Make something interesting for everyone in all zones and let players play in the actual world instead of grinding in instances.
Server communities were much more tighter when you actually recognized the opponents you faced. Battlegrounds still had that until they implemented battlegroups but that was inevitable to even out the queue time differences on low pop realms vs high pop ones.
Only hope that world pvp will see a return in wow is if they actually built some interesting objectives in the world, not the pointless stuff that is in now. Im talking on the scale of raiding stormwind and making it undercity 2.
Im quite keen on seeing how Aion PvP will be, actually Im heading over there to have a look now!
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Efrahim / Vashj EU / World of Warcraft
Aragorn / Sonoma / Ultima Online
The server drama that always unfolded added hilarity and a real Azeroth feel to it knowing you could face "Taurensmasher" an opponent that beat you last time, but you were sure you'd get back at him. Made for a lot of fun that was stripped away by BGs/crossrealm bgs.