I like PotBS crafting. You have warehouses and resource on different islands, and to make stuff you have to ship things for one island to another, sometimes going through a pvp area.
Pvp areas can be created just to block good resources for strategic purposes.
Very cool stuff, but It can be a bit slow paced.
I have played trial version of Pirates of Caribbean Online and after being played WOW clone games for long time, I kind of liking this sea/land battle game,then I saw Pirates of the Burning Sea is very similar and it looks more weights, I went out to buy the game but 8 shops do not have it. Gotta try on Monday.
Horizons had all gear crafted, and while the crafters loved it, the adventurers hated it. There was no reward for fighting that mob. Oh they would get a crafting component but then they would either have to wait and craft it themselves or find a crafter willing to make it if, you could, then wait for the crafter to make it, which sometimes took days depending on when he was on, when your on, and how hard it was to make.
That's right on target.
Eve Online uses the technique of ensuring that there is a steady supply of desirable goods available in an open market even if all crafters are offline. Fantasy MMOs usually structure crafting on a contract basis where logged-on customers make requests of logged-on crafters. Fantasy MMOs also typically refuse to make crafting an integral part of the game.
Crafters cannot keep an inventory because there is simply no provision for it, nor can they sell anything if they are not logged-on. Eve Online is structured to let crafters crank out product into a market that is constantly consuming it. Neither side is inconvenienced and both sides desire the interaction.
All this said, crafting generally doesn't exist in MMOs. It's actually push-button manufacturing where players pour ingredients into recipe hoppers, press a button and get a manufactured item. I'd very much like to see crafting implemented in the way that A Tale in the Desert attempts; player skill is involved with the task of creating the end product. Specific examples there are charcoal production, gem cutting and blacksmithing.
The fix? add durability, or make things Bind when equip.
Well, you're right - that would fix the problem
But that would make me stop playing the game. I definitely do NOT want to work on getting the best armor in the game AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN !
Just because it "fixes economy".
In a game where crafting isnt an afterthought or a time grind that the devs made just to point and say "Loooook all you people who likes to craft, buy our game cuz we have crafting!!!", getting the best armor after your old best armor was worn out(read: destroyed because you got hit to much), would never be that you had to do a 25 man raid for a 10% chance of a drop of 1 part of your armor heh...
You just find yerself a crafter.
Oh wait, you mean that you wouldnt want to go to a crafter and pay some credits for a new armor, sicne your shinies are to be hoarded, and instead you want to spend 6 months raiding your arse out to get the best armor in the game that never decays, so once you have it, you never need to look at another armor raid ever, ever, ever, ever, ever! ?
Ive never been into crafting. However, I would prefer to see an MMO with a deep, meaningful crafting system. So many people (apparently) just want to see narrow, one dimensional games that focus on nothing but the combat grind...and the aquisition awsome loot...which isnt very awsome, when you think about it, since everyone gets it....
It may be a strange opinion I got but I really loved all the skill you could train in the browser game Runescape. You really had the choise the what you were going to do. Oke I admit training your skills there was pure grinding but it really gives a good fealing knowing you're a really good craftsmen!
to make crafting interesting its not the actual process, its the value and use of the items that make it interesting.
in a world where the best gear or at least most gear is crafting, crafting has an impact on the actual world and has a point and meaning. so crafters enjoy crafting in such a world even if it is repetitive.
as hyped as a am about age of conan, I dont believe it will have great crafting and economy (though I'm yet to try it). earthrise looks like its going to focus on decent crafting and economy much in the same way as SWG, I look forward to it but have my doubts that it can produce.
In games like DAoC, SWG, or certian characters in Lineage 2, a player can be jsut a crafter and hardly level up and adventure. For these type of games crafting has to have something really friggin unique added to it.
I'm waiting for the day when a crafting system is implimented that actually lets you customize the look of an item. Just take an engine like CoH, where you have tons of small components that you can add to a larger item.
Example: The player has the design for a basic helmet. The helmet is created and is displayed in a 3d view in front the player. The player can rotate and manipulate the helmet. In order to add stats to the helmet the player has to add components to it. So lets say the player has a horn that adds strength. The player can rotate the helmet and literally place the horn on the helmet in the spot they desire. Color the horn. Perhaps add a design to the helmet itself.
Now THAT is crafting. Not only does the player make a functioning item, but they make an item with a specific look that can say, "I am the designer." That will add much flavor to the crafting world of games.
Its very very simple, yet very very very complex at the same time, and without crafters, there wouldnt be a lot of good gear in the game.
I love FFIX and I really love their crafting system. Saying that, I absolutely hate their business model. One character per account is b.s. and paying $1 for each additional character is even more b.s. Give me five to ten characters per account and I'm all over this game like white on rice. Combine that with a total lack of storage except for paying $1 per mule for more, it just isn't worth. Traveling is such a chore, they almost force you to have a mule in each of the AH areas of the game which is more money for them. I hate greedy developers and that is the impression I get from SE.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
without crafters, there wouldnt be a lot of good gear in the game.
This is the basic principal that most games of the WoW era of MMOs just don't get. Crafting has to have a real purpose or its pointless for people to invest time in it. In my opinion all gear except the very basic noob gear should be player crafted only. The game that does this will be a crafter's paradise as they will be in high demand. This would also promote a very healthy player run economy as the prices for everything would be set by the players and competition would keep the prices reasonable.
Bren
I don't really agree with this. Horizons had all gear crafted, and while the crafters loved it, the adventurers hated it. There was no reward for fighting that mob. Oh they would get a crafting component but then they would either have to wait and craft it themselves or find a crafter willing to make it if, you could, then wait for the crafter to make it, which sometimes took days depending on when he was on, when your on, and how hard it was to make.
Adventures need some immediate reward for killing some mob, waiting and being dependent on a crafter (and yes I was both) just sucks.
Venge Sunsoar
You hit the nail on the head. I despise games that make me either dependent on a crafter to get my gear or make me feel like I must craft to be competitive. If it was up to me, all gear would be drops or bought from merchants. OK if other players sell the gear they make/own to me as well, as long as its on a marketplace, and not done by bargining/shouting.
I agree with you also that the players should have a marketplace of sorts to do there selling and not just have to yell it out over public chat channels but I stand firm on the fact that all gear should be crafted. Saying that it ruins the game for the non crafter because they don't get the uber drops is just WoW thinking taken to the extreme. To work the devs that implement this system would have to think outside of the extremely small box WoW has stuffed them into. Horizons probably isn't the best example to use to argue this issue as that game had many problems that were not related to crafting directly but effected it indirectly through the trickle down effect. Horizons was just a bad game altogether and the no uber drops just added to the long list of complaints. I guess what I'm trying to say is gear should be just gear and there shouldn't be any uber items to drop in the first place.
LOTRO has a pretty good crating system. The gear I currently have is a mixture of drops, quest and crafted. The crafted stuff is pretty much on par. When I played UO, Horizons, and Eve their crafting systems were pretty good. I don't think crafting will make a come back till they bring back item destruction.
I think the more global point is we need more games that are virtual worlds instead of diablo rip-offs. In a virtual world, crafters create the items worn by the players. They put them in their shops. Combat types buy them, use them, break them, and then come back for more...And probably with some much needed rare ingredients they can either use to make something new or just sell to some crafter and buy whatever the hell they want.
Of all the games I've played, I'd have to say SWG got it best as far as virtual world. 1 character per account. 1 set of skills. Choose those skills wisely. Player houses and player shops. Limited mass market (I prefer no market).
If the game is a hack and slash Diabloesque game, the crafting in it is bound to suck. Along that line of thinking, any game with raiding really can't be a virtual world. It just doesn't work.
In fact, a bit off topic, I would say the perfect virtual world (and for crafters) would have these features:
Player housing
Player created and run shops (no mass market)
Guild level castles/keeps
Ability to create kingdom borders/checkpoints/battlements
Player ran crafting community to keep the troops/kingdom in arms and other things (food, etc)
Sieges
Plenty of monster bashing, but no raiding (max is group level monster bashing)
Most raw materials are created through mining/forestry, etc - Very high level items (Magic items) need some hard to get components from creatures
Monsters can hoard wealth as treasure to find (but some have nothing really)
Monsters only have treasure equal to what their species has made for them to use, or stuff they got from dead adventurers
Everything has a durability rating, and can only be repaired so many times (ala UO)
Skill based - No levels
Can't be adventurer and crafter - Mutually exclusive
One character/account/server - No crafting mules
This would make a kick ass world.
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
I feel there should be more location based player run markets like in EvE and POTBS. Basically this helps promote player movement between locations and provides some good opportunities in trading [therefore making a trader class work].
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
without crafters, there wouldnt be a lot of good gear in the game.
This is the basic principal that most games of the WoW era of MMOs just don't get. Crafting has to have a real purpose or its pointless for people to invest time in it. In my opinion all gear except the very basic noob gear should be player crafted only. The game that does this will be a crafter's paradise as they will be in high demand. This would also promote a very healthy player run economy as the prices for everything would be set by the players and competition would keep the prices reasonable.
Bren
The rub is that those people who don't care about crafting HATE that they can't quest for the best gear.
Horizons gave a real good effort at that. In questing, you got the important components for crafting (not the actual item). The basic components would be gathered/mined/etc. Crafting would combine the two. Not a lot of people, other than crafters, liked that system too well... Horizons is not exactly a hit game.
But you are right... for good crafting to exist, it has to have a real purpose otherwise its a non-profitable grind (nothing worse than making useless trash to sell to some no-name NPC merchant for a lose). Maybe the real deal is going back to a time when rare items were actually rare. Then have most of the good equipment be crafted (non-loot) items. And I think you need some kind of item decay to help recycle items through the economy... but again... most non-crafters hate decay and think of it as a money-sink.
All this said, crafting generally doesn't exist in MMOs. It's actually push-button manufacturing where players pour ingredients into recipe hoppers, press a button and get a manufactured item. I'd very much like to see crafting implemented in the way that A Tale in the Desert attempts; player skill is involved with the task of creating the end product. Specific examples there are charcoal production, gem cutting and blacksmithing.
Yep, 100% on that one. I recently wrote a blog talking about crafting and ATITD was discussed.
I have played ATITD each time it restarted (it's on 3 now) and found the crafting amazing. But ATITD is not a fantasy RPG, it's a political/crafting game. There is nothing to kill, so that leaves the typical gamer type, out in the cold.
Don't get me wrong, I love ATITD. Great game, great concept. But it is missing a few things that would make it a truly great game.
It's pay to play, but to me, it's worth it. The depth in the crafting is beyond anything else out there. The politics are cut-thoat at times, but incredibly challenging. The competition to be the first to find that all needed ore is intense. The developer is known to throw in new systems each tale and this last one, he brought in realistic wine-making. From growing the grapes in the right areas, to crushing and putting them in a barrel, to how long they are eft in the barrel, to the end flavor result (mixing different grapes etc), to leaving them bottled for a while for the flavors to mingle.
Each and every process in ATITD is a learning curve. You have to figure out HOW to accomplish it. There is no direction, only the players to help each other. Suddenly we open up wine-making, all we know now, is we can make wines and have been given ONE type of grape seed. We have to figure out how to plant it, how to maintain it and trust me...it's NOT an easy process. But if you truly like depth and some serious puzzles to figure out, while creating something cool, this is the crafting system for you.
There is everything from building a compound from grass and mud (via making the bricks), to crossbreeding the grass seeds in order to produce better production seeds, to breeding beetles for artistic beauty and then competing and on and on.
As for merchanting your goods...Well, nope. Not in the typical means. You trade, you barter and you share. Unless someone in the game can actually make money (I mean CREATE it) and actually make it viable, you trade for what you need. It works, and depending on what your focus is, it can work extremely well.
Yes, I sound like an ATITD fan, and in a way...I am. I love the crafting, and I love the competition to open the different schools in different regions. What I don't love, is the serious boring moments, where the game...feels way more like work, than fun. But for a dedicated crafter, play this game. It will offer at LEAST 3 months of pure pleasure. After that, well...stay or don't.. It's worth the first few months! Just start when a new tale starts, the rush in the beginning is truly a blast.
Originally posted by Astrina I have played ATITD each time it restarted (it's on 3 now) and found the crafting amazing. But ATITD is not a fantasy RPG, it's a political/crafting game. There is nothing to kill, so that leaves the typical gamer type, out in the cold. Don't get me wrong, I love ATITD. Great game, great concept. But it is missing a few things that would make it a truly great game.
If ATITD crafting were introduced to Eve Online, it would be a phenomenal game. Transpose it into a fantasy setting with the World of Warcraft visual presentation and I'd be a happy man. I'd tweak it further, but that would make a very good start.
Originally posted by CDCostaOriginally posted by ThunderousOriginally posted by CDCosta
And thats why FFXI's crafting was so good. Some people deticated a lot of time into crafting and it took lots of time and money to max out the craft.
That's a joke too.
You're a Joke.
Lmao, dude go "craft" in FFXI and leave the discussion to us adults.
So, according to your definition of "adult", an adult is someone who posts "Thats a joke too" as an answer to a claim, without giving any further arguments ?
I cant really see the difference between kindergarden and adulthood there, but oh well, thats probably just me.
If ATITD crafting were introduced to Eve Online, it would be a phenomenal game. [...]
I only read the Wikipedia article about "A tale in the desert", but this is truely a game of its own. I dont think it will work well with traditional games. Imagine the time and efford one would have to invest to create anything in combatfocussed games... people would completely depend upon the crafters, and very likely many wont like it.
If ATITD crafting were introduced to Eve Online, it would be a phenomenal game. [...]
I only read the Wikipedia article about "A tale in the desert", but this is truely a game of its own. I dont think it will work well with traditional games. Imagine the time and efford one would have to invest to create anything in combatfocussed games... people would completely depend upon the crafters, and very likely many wont like it.
I'm not sure why that would develop. If a game can survive on push-button manufacturing then it can survive on skilled crafting. The only important thing for consumers is that there are enough goods on the market to ensure healthy competition and meet the demand. The manner in which the people providing the goods are entertained would seem a moot issue.
Crafting that takes time. If it takes you a day to put out that nice, shiny sword, people won't flood the market with crafted goods. Plus, it also moves away from the clicky-grindy aspect and focuses more on the logistics side of things.
Durability. If items wear out, they'll need replacing. Otherwise crafters will make a huge batch of swords and never be needed again.
Quality independent of skill. Newbies might take much longer or use more materials, but they should be able to compete in the crafting market too. If you insist, perhaps they can't make the latest and greatest item, but they should be able to make something that everyone can use. Otherwise, people will have to grind producing junk to increase their skill, which is boring. Unless you're the best, no one cares what you make, which is very discouraging.
Now, for more experimental ideas that should be added also:
Tie materials to PvE. Adventurers go out to that dungeon lair and kill the beast because that cave is a great source of coal for the forges and steel making. Then another party goes out and slays a dragon for it's blood, which is vital for enchanting.
Originally posted by JB47394 If ATITD crafting were introduced to Eve Online, it would be a phenomenal game. Transpose it into a fantasy setting with the World of Warcraft visual presentation and I'd be a happy man. I'd tweak it further, but that would make a very good start.
Id love to see an MMO built around a deep, detailed craft/trade system. And, Im not even a crafter. I just thinks its a much more interesting and complex foundation, as opposed to the usual, mindless hack an slash to the top...
without crafters, there wouldnt be a lot of good gear in the game.
This is the basic principal that most games of the WoW era of MMOs just don't get. Crafting has to have a real purpose or its pointless for people to invest time in it. In my opinion all gear except the very basic noob gear should be player crafted only. The game that does this will be a crafter's paradise as they will be in high demand. This would also promote a very healthy player run economy as the prices for everything would be set by the players and competition would keep the prices reasonable.
Bren
The rub is that those people who don't care about crafting HATE that they can't quest for the best gear.
Horizons gave a real good effort at that. In questing, you got the important components for crafting (not the actual item). The basic components would be gathered/mined/etc. Crafting would combine the two. Not a lot of people, other than crafters, liked that system too well... Horizons is not exactly a hit game.
But you are right... for good crafting to exist, it has to have a real purpose otherwise its a non-profitable grind (nothing worse than making useless trash to sell to some no-name NPC merchant for a lose). Maybe the real deal is going back to a time when rare items were actually rare. Then have most of the good equipment be crafted (non-loot) items. And I think you need some kind of item decay to help recycle items through the economy... but again... most non-crafters hate decay and think of it as a money-sink.
Asheron's Call had a decent crafting system. You could salvage items for raw materials. Then you applied those materials to loot-dropped items to improve them. However there was always a risk of destroying the item you were trying to enhance. That risk increased the more you enhanced something. This allowed non-crafters to have (close to) the best items in the game and crafters to take a (skill based) gamble on the very best in game items. This allowed for variety as salvaging and crafting were two different skills. It also was a large boost to the economy as people sought out the best crafters (they could afford) to enhance their items. The destruction risk also kept the very best items rare.
All in all it was a system that allowed the people who liked crafting to be a valuable part of the economy and a chance to produce the very best items in game. It gave non-crafters incentive to at least know crafters in their guild or the marketplace and to use their services as much as they were willing to gamble.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
Comments
That's a joke too.
You're a Joke.
That's right on target.
Eve Online uses the technique of ensuring that there is a steady supply of desirable goods available in an open market even if all crafters are offline. Fantasy MMOs usually structure crafting on a contract basis where logged-on customers make requests of logged-on crafters. Fantasy MMOs also typically refuse to make crafting an integral part of the game.
Crafters cannot keep an inventory because there is simply no provision for it, nor can they sell anything if they are not logged-on. Eve Online is structured to let crafters crank out product into a market that is constantly consuming it. Neither side is inconvenienced and both sides desire the interaction.
All this said, crafting generally doesn't exist in MMOs. It's actually push-button manufacturing where players pour ingredients into recipe hoppers, press a button and get a manufactured item. I'd very much like to see crafting implemented in the way that A Tale in the Desert attempts; player skill is involved with the task of creating the end product. Specific examples there are charcoal production, gem cutting and blacksmithing.
But that would make me stop playing the game. I definitely do NOT want to work on getting the best armor in the game AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN !
Just because it "fixes economy".
In a game where crafting isnt an afterthought or a time grind that the devs made just to point and say "Loooook all you people who likes to craft, buy our game cuz we have crafting!!!", getting the best armor after your old best armor was worn out(read: destroyed because you got hit to much), would never be that you had to do a 25 man raid for a 10% chance of a drop of 1 part of your armor heh...You just find yerself a crafter.
Oh wait, you mean that you wouldnt want to go to a crafter and pay some credits for a new armor, sicne your shinies are to be hoarded, and instead you want to spend 6 months raiding your arse out to get the best armor in the game that never decays, so once you have it, you never need to look at another armor raid ever, ever, ever, ever, ever! ?
Ive never been into crafting. However, I would prefer to see an MMO with a deep, meaningful crafting system. So many people (apparently) just want to see narrow, one dimensional games that focus on nothing but the combat grind...and the aquisition awsome loot...which isnt very awsome, when you think about it, since everyone gets it....
That's a joke too.
You're a Joke.
Lmao, dude go "craft" in FFXI and leave the discussion to us adults.
Tecmo Bowl.
It may be a strange opinion I got but I really loved all the skill you could train in the browser game Runescape. You really had the choise the what you were going to do. Oke I admit training your skills there was pure grinding but it really gives a good fealing knowing you're a really good craftsmen!
I agree with most the comments here.
to make crafting interesting its not the actual process, its the value and use of the items that make it interesting.
in a world where the best gear or at least most gear is crafting, crafting has an impact on the actual world and has a point and meaning. so crafters enjoy crafting in such a world even if it is repetitive.
as hyped as a am about age of conan, I dont believe it will have great crafting and economy (though I'm yet to try it). earthrise looks like its going to focus on decent crafting and economy much in the same way as SWG, I look forward to it but have my doubts that it can produce.
My blog:
In games like DAoC, SWG, or certian characters in Lineage 2, a player can be jsut a crafter and hardly level up and adventure. For these type of games crafting has to have something really friggin unique added to it.
I'm waiting for the day when a crafting system is implimented that actually lets you customize the look of an item. Just take an engine like CoH, where you have tons of small components that you can add to a larger item.
Example: The player has the design for a basic helmet. The helmet is created and is displayed in a 3d view in front the player. The player can rotate and manipulate the helmet. In order to add stats to the helmet the player has to add components to it. So lets say the player has a horn that adds strength. The player can rotate the helmet and literally place the horn on the helmet in the spot they desire. Color the horn. Perhaps add a design to the helmet itself.
Now THAT is crafting. Not only does the player make a functioning item, but they make an item with a specific look that can say, "I am the designer." That will add much flavor to the crafting world of games.
I love FFIX and I really love their crafting system. Saying that, I absolutely hate their business model. One character per account is b.s. and paying $1 for each additional character is even more b.s. Give me five to ten characters per account and I'm all over this game like white on rice. Combine that with a total lack of storage except for paying $1 per mule for more, it just isn't worth. Traveling is such a chore, they almost force you to have a mule in each of the AH areas of the game which is more money for them. I hate greedy developers and that is the impression I get from SE.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
This is the basic principal that most games of the WoW era of MMOs just don't get. Crafting has to have a real purpose or its pointless for people to invest time in it. In my opinion all gear except the very basic noob gear should be player crafted only. The game that does this will be a crafter's paradise as they will be in high demand. This would also promote a very healthy player run economy as the prices for everything would be set by the players and competition would keep the prices reasonable.Bren
I don't really agree with this. Horizons had all gear crafted, and while the crafters loved it, the adventurers hated it. There was no reward for fighting that mob. Oh they would get a crafting component but then they would either have to wait and craft it themselves or find a crafter willing to make it if, you could, then wait for the crafter to make it, which sometimes took days depending on when he was on, when your on, and how hard it was to make.Adventures need some immediate reward for killing some mob, waiting and being dependent on a crafter (and yes I was both) just sucks.
Venge Sunsoar
You hit the nail on the head. I despise games that make me either dependent on a crafter to get my gear or make me feel like I must craft to be competitive. If it was up to me, all gear would be drops or bought from merchants. OK if other players sell the gear they make/own to me as well, as long as its on a marketplace, and not done by bargining/shouting.
I agree with you also that the players should have a marketplace of sorts to do there selling and not just have to yell it out over public chat channels but I stand firm on the fact that all gear should be crafted. Saying that it ruins the game for the non crafter because they don't get the uber drops is just WoW thinking taken to the extreme. To work the devs that implement this system would have to think outside of the extremely small box WoW has stuffed them into. Horizons probably isn't the best example to use to argue this issue as that game had many problems that were not related to crafting directly but effected it indirectly through the trickle down effect. Horizons was just a bad game altogether and the no uber drops just added to the long list of complaints. I guess what I'm trying to say is gear should be just gear and there shouldn't be any uber items to drop in the first place.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
LOTRO has a pretty good crating system. The gear I currently have is a mixture of drops, quest and crafted. The crafted stuff is pretty much on par. When I played UO, Horizons, and Eve their crafting systems were pretty good. I don't think crafting will make a come back till they bring back item destruction.
I think the more global point is we need more games that are virtual worlds instead of diablo rip-offs. In a virtual world, crafters create the items worn by the players. They put them in their shops. Combat types buy them, use them, break them, and then come back for more...And probably with some much needed rare ingredients they can either use to make something new or just sell to some crafter and buy whatever the hell they want.
Of all the games I've played, I'd have to say SWG got it best as far as virtual world. 1 character per account. 1 set of skills. Choose those skills wisely. Player houses and player shops. Limited mass market (I prefer no market).
If the game is a hack and slash Diabloesque game, the crafting in it is bound to suck. Along that line of thinking, any game with raiding really can't be a virtual world. It just doesn't work.
In fact, a bit off topic, I would say the perfect virtual world (and for crafters) would have these features:
This would make a kick ass world.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
I feel there should be more location based player run markets like in EvE and POTBS. Basically this helps promote player movement between locations and provides some good opportunities in trading [therefore making a trader class work].
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
This is the basic principal that most games of the WoW era of MMOs just don't get. Crafting has to have a real purpose or its pointless for people to invest time in it. In my opinion all gear except the very basic noob gear should be player crafted only. The game that does this will be a crafter's paradise as they will be in high demand. This would also promote a very healthy player run economy as the prices for everything would be set by the players and competition would keep the prices reasonable.Bren
The rub is that those people who don't care about crafting HATE that they can't quest for the best gear.
Horizons gave a real good effort at that. In questing, you got the important components for crafting (not the actual item). The basic components would be gathered/mined/etc. Crafting would combine the two. Not a lot of people, other than crafters, liked that system too well... Horizons is not exactly a hit game.
But you are right... for good crafting to exist, it has to have a real purpose otherwise its a non-profitable grind (nothing worse than making useless trash to sell to some no-name NPC merchant for a lose). Maybe the real deal is going back to a time when rare items were actually rare. Then have most of the good equipment be crafted (non-loot) items. And I think you need some kind of item decay to help recycle items through the economy... but again... most non-crafters hate decay and think of it as a money-sink.
Yep, 100% on that one. I recently wrote a blog talking about crafting and ATITD was discussed.
I have played ATITD each time it restarted (it's on 3 now) and found the crafting amazing. But ATITD is not a fantasy RPG, it's a political/crafting game. There is nothing to kill, so that leaves the typical gamer type, out in the cold.
Don't get me wrong, I love ATITD. Great game, great concept. But it is missing a few things that would make it a truly great game.
It's pay to play, but to me, it's worth it. The depth in the crafting is beyond anything else out there. The politics are cut-thoat at times, but incredibly challenging. The competition to be the first to find that all needed ore is intense. The developer is known to throw in new systems each tale and this last one, he brought in realistic wine-making. From growing the grapes in the right areas, to crushing and putting them in a barrel, to how long they are eft in the barrel, to the end flavor result (mixing different grapes etc), to leaving them bottled for a while for the flavors to mingle.
Each and every process in ATITD is a learning curve. You have to figure out HOW to accomplish it. There is no direction, only the players to help each other. Suddenly we open up wine-making, all we know now, is we can make wines and have been given ONE type of grape seed. We have to figure out how to plant it, how to maintain it and trust me...it's NOT an easy process. But if you truly like depth and some serious puzzles to figure out, while creating something cool, this is the crafting system for you.
There is everything from building a compound from grass and mud (via making the bricks), to crossbreeding the grass seeds in order to produce better production seeds, to breeding beetles for artistic beauty and then competing and on and on.
As for merchanting your goods...Well, nope. Not in the typical means. You trade, you barter and you share. Unless someone in the game can actually make money (I mean CREATE it) and actually make it viable, you trade for what you need. It works, and depending on what your focus is, it can work extremely well.
Yes, I sound like an ATITD fan, and in a way...I am. I love the crafting, and I love the competition to open the different schools in different regions. What I don't love, is the serious boring moments, where the game...feels way more like work, than fun. But for a dedicated crafter, play this game. It will offer at LEAST 3 months of pure pleasure. After that, well...stay or don't.. It's worth the first few months! Just start when a new tale starts, the rush in the beginning is truly a blast.
If ATITD crafting were introduced to Eve Online, it would be a phenomenal game. Transpose it into a fantasy setting with the World of Warcraft visual presentation and I'd be a happy man. I'd tweak it further, but that would make a very good start.
That's a joke too.
You're a Joke.
Lmao, dude go "craft" in FFXI and leave the discussion to us adults.
So, according to your definition of "adult", an adult is someone who posts "Thats a joke too" as an answer to a claim, without giving any further arguments ?
I cant really see the difference between kindergarden and adulthood there, but oh well, thats probably just me.
I only read the Wikipedia article about "A tale in the desert", but this is truely a game of its own. I dont think it will work well with traditional games. Imagine the time and efford one would have to invest to create anything in combatfocussed games... people would completely depend upon the crafters, and very likely many wont like it.
I'm not sure why that would develop. If a game can survive on push-button manufacturing then it can survive on skilled crafting. The only important thing for consumers is that there are enough goods on the market to ensure healthy competition and meet the demand. The manner in which the people providing the goods are entertained would seem a moot issue.I only read the Wikipedia article about "A tale in the desert", but this is truely a game of its own. I dont think it will work well with traditional games. Imagine the time and efford one would have to invest to create anything in combatfocussed games... people would completely depend upon the crafters, and very likely many wont like it.
Crafting for me is the ambodiment of boredom. I already have ONE work, thats enough.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Some key features that more games need:
Crafting that takes time. If it takes you a day to put out that nice, shiny sword, people won't flood the market with crafted goods. Plus, it also moves away from the clicky-grindy aspect and focuses more on the logistics side of things.
Durability. If items wear out, they'll need replacing. Otherwise crafters will make a huge batch of swords and never be needed again.
Quality independent of skill. Newbies might take much longer or use more materials, but they should be able to compete in the crafting market too. If you insist, perhaps they can't make the latest and greatest item, but they should be able to make something that everyone can use. Otherwise, people will have to grind producing junk to increase their skill, which is boring. Unless you're the best, no one cares what you make, which is very discouraging.
Now, for more experimental ideas that should be added also:
Tie materials to PvE. Adventurers go out to that dungeon lair and kill the beast because that cave is a great source of coal for the forges and steel making. Then another party goes out and slays a dragon for it's blood, which is vital for enchanting.
Id love to see an MMO built around a deep, detailed craft/trade system. And, Im not even a crafter. I just thinks its a much more interesting and complex foundation, as opposed to the usual, mindless hack an slash to the top...
Bren
The rub is that those people who don't care about crafting HATE that they can't quest for the best gear.
Horizons gave a real good effort at that. In questing, you got the important components for crafting (not the actual item). The basic components would be gathered/mined/etc. Crafting would combine the two. Not a lot of people, other than crafters, liked that system too well... Horizons is not exactly a hit game.
But you are right... for good crafting to exist, it has to have a real purpose otherwise its a non-profitable grind (nothing worse than making useless trash to sell to some no-name NPC merchant for a lose). Maybe the real deal is going back to a time when rare items were actually rare. Then have most of the good equipment be crafted (non-loot) items. And I think you need some kind of item decay to help recycle items through the economy... but again... most non-crafters hate decay and think of it as a money-sink.
Asheron's Call had a decent crafting system. You could salvage items for raw materials. Then you applied those materials to loot-dropped items to improve them. However there was always a risk of destroying the item you were trying to enhance. That risk increased the more you enhanced something. This allowed non-crafters to have (close to) the best items in the game and crafters to take a (skill based) gamble on the very best in game items. This allowed for variety as salvaging and crafting were two different skills. It also was a large boost to the economy as people sought out the best crafters (they could afford) to enhance their items. The destruction risk also kept the very best items rare.All in all it was a system that allowed the people who liked crafting to be a valuable part of the economy and a chance to produce the very best items in game. It gave non-crafters incentive to at least know crafters in their guild or the marketplace and to use their services as much as they were willing to gamble.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
~Omar Khayyam