Why age of conan pvp design fails but why world pvp/open pvp DOESN'T fail !

shadenis · May 2008

This week, many claim pvp fails, especially, open world pvp fails . They now say the times of open world pvp are over, the time of instanced battlegrounds, instanced arenas are the key to success or saying that pvp totally fails and pve is the way to go.

This is all wrong! Mmo's are like mini societies, age of conan has FFA ( free for all) it basically implies, you can attack omost everyone , everywhere ( except in hubs).

In RL, we can also do that, but if we kill someone , we are tagged as a murderer or as a criminal, when we flee or hide us somewhere, cops are looking for you, wanting to arrest you and will put you in a jail where u stay for years and years. This is just one of the many penalties we have in RL. We always use laws and rules, we always use it. Now , i may ask: what happens if we put those laws out of it. All those rules gone , everyone can do what ever he wishes , he can do anything but the negative side of the story is that then everything is a total mayhem. Human nature cannot live without rules, if we don't have rules,it's total chaos.

The same implies for mmo's with FFA. Without any rules, it is a total mayhem.

That is the reason why age of conan pvp fails. It didn't created anything, just a thing that u can attack everyone, that's not FFA, that is mayhem , that is dumb pvp, idiotic design over the top , i would call it. By example: EVE is FFA totally but i has rules , like FFA suppose to have. They have security zones, a penalty for dying ala risk vs reward and the list goes on.

UO and L2 also had this but in a bit less. EVE improved on these structures and basically improved FFA, improved the formula FFA and basically made it better. You can still attack anyone, but you will face the consequenses, ala it is still FFA because it is just a term. Free for all but with rules and laws that do not restrict freedom is how FFA should suppose to be, always , there are no exceptions.

Age of conan fails with this because you can kill someone, but he comes back with full health, he has nothing to worry, there is no sense of fear in age of conan. You can kill those griefers, but it doesn't hurt them, they always come back, the only penalty that could happen to them is boredom but that is a utterly bad design. Politics cannot happen since there is no risk vs reward, there is no penalty, there is no law, there is nothing, just total mayhem.

If AOC doesn't change this, then pvp will fail on all servers, border kingdoms will fail, open world pvp will fail, everything because there are no rules, no risk vs reward, NOTHING! It all leads to meaningless pvp. A utterly bad flawed design in my eyes that needs to be fixed ASAP!

AOC could have a karma system, a penalty for dying, BH system, security zones, remove those hub protection and just go for that security system ala , at cities , it is high security and wilderness , it is low security and between those, it is mid-security. Dying could be some kind of looting system, it does not need to have ful loot but one item loss is already enough. YOU JUST HAVE TO MAKE THE PVP MEANINGFUL!

Now into world pvp/open world pvp design. Many claim it fails but it isn't.

RVR is another term that leads to world pvp. RVR is more balanced in laws then FFA and that's why RVR didn''t have those problems. The only mmo with good RVR is DAOC. World of warcraft has not even got any RVR, it also doesn't got world pvp since there are no politics, warface , RVR or FFA, there is nothing, nothing else then skirmish battles that range from 10 vs 10 to 50 VS 50

RVR and FFA are both terms that are used to create WORLD PVP/OPEN WORLD PVP.

DAOC, Uo, EVE , L2, AC DT etc. etc. did not fail . You can say , one was more niche then the other but that all depends on the company. Example: niche numbers like 200k is a huge success for a small company , while bigger companies would like to have numbers like 300-500 k minimum. It all depends who the company is. Even if it is niche, niche does not mean it is a failure since niche is for every company DIFFERENT!

DAOC had world pvp , relic fights, keep battles , realm pride, name it! THAT IS OPEN WORLD PVP. While in UO, politics happened, warface , that was FFA ( free for all). The same counts for EVE but EVE has a better system designed that is MORE BALANCED.

I had a dream , a dream that pve and pvp could live with eachother together, that instanced pvp wasn't a problem and that world pvp wasn't a problem. Instanced pvp = fine but it is NOT the priority of a mmorpg pvp design. WORLD PVP IS!

AOC pvp fails atm. It doesn't when FC creates a balance like a law system, a risk vs reward system ala , a penalty for death. Then , only THEN, you will see how FFA works dear people.

What you experienced in age of conan was not FFA but was MAYHEM!

World pvp never failed, it never did.. Shadowbane? Own fault, not FFA, but the unbalanced game it was, the bugs , the many other reasons it failed. L2 bots syndrome and VG was already a fail.

FC just needs to create a ruleset with a decent risk vs reward, a decent law system, rule system and balance that and keep the FFA intact, then, only then everyhing will be fine.

RiftScorn · May 2008

This is a well thought out post and addresses issues a good few people have talked about, compares it to other success full open world PvP games.

I fear it will get raided by fanboi's shouting their warcries of 'QQ', 'roll PvE', and some junk about 'being warrior's' (it's a game, go join the army if you want to be a 'warrior') . I think trying to compare any IG mechanic to RL is always a bad move and leaves a thread wide open to get royally Godwin'd, but a good experssion of concern over the present system in relation to other games on the market is defiinatley not out of place.

shadenis · May 2008

I loved all the games that had FFA, some had flaws , some where better ( like EVE).

If someone would say : go play pve server or QQ whine , then i think they should do that since i got my experience with these games and i am just saying the honest TRUTH!

Arcona · May 2008

You get a debuff when you die in AoC.

And wait for the guild raids on other guild made cities to make your judgement.

shadenis · May 2008

Originally posted by Arcona

You get a debuff when you die in AoC.
And wait for the guild raids on other guild made cities to make your judgement.

That debuff doesn't do the thing. That isn't risk vs reward. Those griefers or pkers groups will not stand still of a silly debuff. That risk is way to low to consider it a risk. It only helps temporarely.

This isn't about a thread about guild raiding keeps, this is about why people should stop QQ about how world pvp fails because it isn't and it is also about why AOC pvp atm. fails since it is just a mayhem fest.

j0nb0y · May 2008

OP hits the nail on the head tbh. Im hoping however that the sieging and city ownership will actually add a slight element of risk v reward but i fear it wont be enough.

Eve had a great balance really, military policing the empire areas, (only stationary turrets in less safe empire spare) and then lawlessness in 0.0 territory. You also had consequences of death, you NEED consequences of death in a true PVP game. Otherwise u have no emotional connection when u die or kill some1. Killing some1s battleship in Eve was great cos u knew it had value to its victim and yourself. Hence an adrenaline rush WOOP WOOP WOOP etc.

Lineage 2 had a good PVP system in my experience, just a shit PVE game. It is also more applicable to Conan since its a fantasy and not space game. When some1 attacked another player outside of a free PVP zone (e.g. siege) their name turned purple allowing them to be freely attacked by other players. If they killed some1 they became red and had a chance to drop items if some1 killed them in Red mode. However if you fight back at the purple as he attacks u, you also go purple and noone turns red at end of fight (consensual PVP is encouraged and PKing slightly dissuaded). Red players can work off their negative karma by fighting mobs- still enabled Pking without consequence but it requires brains and tactics to avoid other players ganking ur redness!

IMO Conan needs to think real hard about getting some Risk v reward into the game in order to give the PVP some meaning and not mindless ganking. Thats what makes a great PVP game.

bjornarg · May 2008

Originally posted by shadenis

FC just needs to create a ruleset with a decent risk vs reward, a decent law system, rule system and balance that and keep the FFA intact, then, only then everyhing will be fine.

I agree with a lot of what you are writing, and that last part nicely sums it up. Simply having player and guild standings, like in EVE online, could help a lot. Let's hope we will see some nice updates to the FFA pvp in the near future or this could very well be the real Anarchy Online.

Sheezwack · May 2008

I like the idea of laws etc for people that kill other without being attacked first or whatever, maybe some bounty system like they were going to do, where people that keep greifing have bounties put on their heads and are hunted down, and the people that kill them get to loot from them as a reward and deterrant to the greifers.

I'm sure if they thought it through they could come up with something.

Jackcolt · May 2008

While you did make a good post, I'd wager you still have played enough(if at all) to conclude that it fails.

Experimemt13 · May 2008

Re: The OP

Pe4ople cried, whined, protested, demonstrated, and went thru all sorts of trouble on the official forums...

They wanted FFA!!!!!!!!!!

Now you got FFA.... Add rules and crap and it won't be FFA anymore.

Death penalties??? I wish you folks had been present during the debate! People were having none of that! So you find a weak death penalty.

Funcom listened... And delivered. I give them credit.

Don't like the FFA? Don't play on the FFA servers. It's as simple as that. Vote with your feet.

huxflux2004 · May 2008

AoC hasnt even released yet. And you still compare it with games that had so many years to evolve and mature. Dont get me wrong. I agree with almost all the things you say, but isn't it a bit early to reach the "fail" verdict? No game had a balanced, challenging and rewarding PVP system on launch day.

But what I see in AoC is the prerequisites to have a great FFA system. Nice combat, long view ranges, involving hiding system, siege mechanics. I am pretty sure that it will evolve in the greatest FFA ever.

shadenis · May 2008

Originally posted by Experimemt13

Re: The OP
Pe4ople cried, whined, protested, demonstrated, and went thru all sorts of trouble on the official forums...
They wanted FFA!!!!!!!!!!
Now you got FFA.... Add rules and crap and it won't be FFA anymore.
Death penalties??? I wish you folks had been present during the debate! People were having none of that! So you find a weak death penalty.
Funcom listened... And delivered. I give them credit.
Don't like the FFA? Don't play on the FFA servers. It's as simple as that. Vote with your feet.

Plenty of people asked for a death penalty, asked for a law system. Many did, many asked for the karma system by example, a lootingsystem, the list goes on.

Your whole post is wrong. I have been on the forums since 2005. Sure , we wanted FFA, but FFA without rules was and is a failure! It's not even FFA.

I may ask you , what mmo's you have played because i think you don't know what you are talking about.

Fc listened for a pvp server but if they where smart enough, they directly would create a RULESET on it.

Adding rules and risk vs reward makes it really FFA.

You sir, don't know what you are talking about.

PVP without rules , risk vs reward or anything is just meaningless crappy pvp that is not considered FFA at all in my eyes.

shadenis · May 2008

Originally posted by huxflux2004

AoC hasnt even released yet. And you still compare it with games that had so many years to evolve and mature. Dont get me wrong. I agree with almost all the things you say, but isn't it a bit early to reach the "fail" verdict? No game had a balanced, challenging and rewarding PVP system on launch day.

But what I see in AoC is the prerequisites to have a great FFA system. Nice combat, long view ranges, involving hiding system, siege mechanics. I am pretty sure that it will evolve in the greatest FFA ever.

I agree with you but like i said, i wanted to post this thread because many already draw conclusions that open world pvp fails.

What's next? RVR fails? Oh wait, that's also world pvp, so that's already a failure??

First impressions is a game dealer for allot of people and most people draw to fast conclusions which may hurt it. Atm. it is a failure, if they don't do nothing, it is a failure, if they do something and tweak it and create a ruleset for the server, then, only then it is not a failure.

siftified · May 2008

I just believe that good PvP is better implemented through the use of skill based character development, than through class based development.

DAoC is the only game I can think of that REALLY shows me anything otherwise. And that's simply because Mythic did a brilliant job in creating/tweaking useful and balanced classes.

UO, AC, EvE ... all amazing games, and all with diverse skill choices.

Experimemt13 · May 2008

Originally posted by shadenis

Originally posted by Experimemt13

Re: The OP
Pe4ople cried, whined, protested, demonstrated, and went thru all sorts of trouble on the official forums...
They wanted FFA!!!!!!!!!!
Now you got FFA.... Add rules and crap and it won't be FFA anymore.
Death penalties??? I wish you folks had been present during the debate! People were having none of that! So you find a weak death penalty.
Funcom listened... And delivered. I give them credit.
Don't like the FFA? Don't play on the FFA servers. It's as simple as that. Vote with your feet.

Plenty of people asked for a death penalty, asked for a law system. Many did, many asked for the karma system by example, a lootingsystem, the list goes on.

Your whole post is wrong. I have been on the forums since 2005. Sure , we wanted FFA, but FFA without rules was and is a failure! It's not even FFA.

I may ask you , what mmo's you have played because i think you don't know what you are talking about.

Fc listened for a pvp server but if they where smart enough, they directly would create a RULESET on it.

Adding rules and risk vs reward makes it really FFA.

You sir, don't know what you are talking about.

PVP without rules , risk vs reward or anything is just meaningless crappy pvp that is not considered FFA at all in my eyes.

I believe you may be reading my post wrong... It doesn't say what I wanted.

It reports what OTHERS said they wanted. Not everyone got what they wanted out of it.

I argued that there needed to be MEANINGFUL death penalties, for example.

Naturally, I didn't get what I wanted!

That's just an example. As for going into all the games I have played? Nah, I'm not interested in argument, it ain't worth the time.

Go back and reread carefully. My earlier post isn't arguing... or isn't meant to. My "arguments" took -place on the official boards over a year ago... If you were there? We likely argued similarly.

I stand by what I said... The FFA server is set up like what I was hearing... Little death penalty, few rules.

And THAT is what the majority seemed to want. Whether it would work or not.

Perhaps you weren't listening to your opponents. I listened to mine... They won and here we are.

Oh.... I argued vehemently for painful, even draconian penalties.

EDIT: Let me add a thought for you here... I see people in general being about as interested in having seriou death penalties, law systems and such, as they are in having DECAY.

I believe both are good(TM) things when implemented correctly.

I seem to be part of the minority.

h4te · May 2008

finally someone spoke out the words of truth... After reading around the forums a bit, im so tired of seeing these pvper wannabes acting all hardcore. They think they are the man now cuz they aren't playing a carebear ass game like WoW anymore... Sorry to burst all ur bubbles, without any penalty what so ever like AoC, open pvp is STILL CAREBEAR. in fact, its hardly than better than a pve server.

Like the OP stated, open pvp only makes sense when there are penalty. I played l2, so i will use it as an example. At lvl78, one death can cause you a whole week worth of grind. Now, thats what someone would be mad about, something worth fighting back for, something that would create politics. wtf happens when i die in AoC? Nothing. I come back, and contiue what i was doing before. Is there any point for me to fight back? Not really, because the minute i kill him, he hit the respawn button and comeback and fight me again. This loop will keep on going until one side gets tired/bored. There are no winners or losers in a game like this. Its simply a matter of "who will get bored of slashing each other endlessly first"

There is no point to pvp in a game like this. Killing someone doesn't prove anything. It just means he was blackscreened/hit from behind while hunting a mob. Griefing noobs is even worse. Once the lvl gap begin to show, there will be 0 new players flowing into the game because they will just get ganked by high lvls who are bored of lvling. In l2 there's the "going red" system like mentioned above. I can still grief noobs, but i risk losing a shit load of gear. Now if you still wanna go red, that makes you hardcore. (not killing noobs with 0 consquences...) It also give the newbs some insentive to fight back, because there will be reward for killing the red.

Like the OP said, our society is based on laws/rules, and human lives off of rewards and penalties. A world without laws/rules would be anarchy. A life without rewards/penalities would be pointless to live. And a MMORPG like AoC without either is simply not worth playing.

Experimemt13 · May 2008

Originally posted by h4te

finally someone spoke out the words of truth... After reading around the forums a bit, im so tired of seeing these pvper wannabes acting all hardcore. They think they are the man now cuz they aren't playing a carebear ass game like WoW anymore... Sorry to burst all ur bubbles, without any penalty what so ever like AoC, open pvp is STILL CAREBEAR. in fact, its hardly than better than a pve server.
Like the OP stated, open pvp only makes sense when there are penalty. I played l2, so i will use it as an example. At lvl78, one death can cause you a whole week worth of grind. Now, thats what someone would be mad about, something worth fighting back for, something that would create politics. wtf happens when i die in AoC? Nothing. I come back, and contiue what i was doing before. Is there any point for me to fight back? Not really, because the minute i kill him, he hit the respawn button and comeback and fight me again. This loop will keep on going until one side gets tired/bored. There are no winners or losers in a game like this. Its simply a matter of "who will get bored of slashing each other endlessly first"
There is no point to pvp in a game like this. Killing someone doesn't prove anything. It just means he was blackscreened/hit from behind while hunting a mob. Griefing noobs is even worse. Once the lvl gap begin to show, there will be 0 new players flowing into the game because they will just get ganked by high lvls who are bored of lvling. In l2 there's the "going red" system like mentioned above. I can still grief noobs, but i risk losing a shit load of gear. Now if you still wanna go red, that makes you hardcore. (not killing noobs with 0 consquences...) It also give the newbs some insentive to fight back, because there will be reward for killing the red.
Like the OP said, our society is based on laws/rules, and human lives off of rewards and penalties. A world without laws/rules would be anarchy. A life without rewards/penalities would be pointless to live. And a MMORPG like AoC without either is simply not worth playing.

H4te, people put forth the exact same argument on the official forums a long time ago.... And have been ignored...

Pity, isn't it?

LOTS of arguments were put forth... good ones too.

So?

Vote with YOUR FEET!

Don't play the FFA servers if you don't like the result!

If you like it? Then go for it!

Let the customers decide and let the chips fall where they may

h4te · May 2008

Originally posted by Experimemt13

H4te, people put forth the exact same argument on the official forums a long time ago.... And have been ignored...
Pity, isn't it?
LOTS of arguments were put forth... good ones too.
So?
Vote with YOUR FEET!
Don't play the FFA servers if you don't like the result!
If you like it? Then go for it!
Let the customers decide and let the chips fall where they may

I haven't been keeping track with this game like most of the people here... In fact, today is the first time i actually looked into this game since im looking for a new MMO to play during the summer. Im not here to beg for a change from the developers. as i don't care about this game as much as some of you do. All im saying is that this kind of "FFA" is not gonna get this game anywhere, and very disappointed to see the "next big MMO" turns out like this. Unless some serious changes are made, i guarantee you that this games not gonna get much further than the "sold out preorders"...

Right now, the game to me sounds a lot like one of those 5000x exp lineage2 private servers, where random 12 yr olds sit around and gank each other all day long and act like gangsters, without any purpose or meaning to it. Heck, even these private owned servers were smart enough to figure out creating peace zones at spawn points after teleporting/load. GG AoC.

I'm just gonna pass on this game and wait for WAR/Aion now.

odysseas70 · May 2008

Originally posted by Arcona

You get a debuff when you die in AoC.
And wait for the guild raids on other guild made cities to make your judgement.

This debuff actually works in favor of the PKers/killer. Get your shit straight dude. We're talking about a risk Vs reward system, a penalty that should apply to the one who made the killing, not the victim lol

Have you played UO? Eve? L2? Any game with decent pvp ffa open world mechanics? If not....... w/e *shrugs*

PS: Debuff as a penalty for dieing = big LOL

When I see or hear about it I just laugh. Like this ever stopped them/us lol

Experimemt13 · May 2008

Originally posted by h4te

Originally posted by Experimemt13

H4te, people put forth the exact same argument on the official forums a long time ago.... And have been ignored...
Pity, isn't it?
LOTS of arguments were put forth... good ones too.
So?
Vote with YOUR FEET!
Don't play the FFA servers if you don't like the result!
If you like it? Then go for it!
Let the customers decide and let the chips fall where they may

I haven't been keeping track with this game like most of the people here... In fact, today is the first time i actually looked into this game since im looking for a new MMO to play during the summer. Im not here to beg for a change from the developers. as i don't care about this game as much as some of you do. All im saying is that this kind of "FFA" is not gonna get this game anywhere, and very disappointed to see the "next big MMO" turns out like this. Unless some serious changes are made, i guarantee you that this games not gonna get much further than the "sold out preorders"...

Right now, the game to me sounds a lot like one of those 5000x exp lineage2 private servers, where random 12 yr olds sit around and gank each other all day long and act like gangsters, without any purpose or meaning to it. Heck, even these private owned servers were smart enough to figure out creating peace zones at spawn points after teleporting/load. GG AoC.

I'm just gonna pass on this game and wait for WAR/Aion now.

I hear what you are saying H4te... But the game plays pretty good. At least "I" am enjoying it quite nicely.

It's worth playing, just roll PVE to avoid meaningless PVP.

Hh.... Um, you might just be a pure PVP sort. If you are and can't stomach meaningless death penalties? Avoid it!

Otherwise, it's really tasty!

Ephimero · May 2008

I agree with the OP in many of his points, PvP without penalty for the one who dies, and without a control over the one who kills, becomes pointless quite soon. Specially if the PvP rewards (PVP XP), then it doesn't become pointless, but a grind, something to farm on instead of something to escape from the grind, you will have to go to pvp to get that level you're missing, and you will go, kill a pair of people, spawn kill them and voilá, level up.

Aramanu · May 2008

bit of an oxymoron.. the guy wants FFA but with rules? HELLO?!

FFA = FREE FOR ALL, that means do what you want when you want however you want.

you want rules? play on the culture-pvp server or better yet take your anti-anarchistic self to a pve server.

some of us prefer mayham in our games mainly cos most of our RL is governed by silly rules anyway.

Celeras · May 2008

You gain PvP experience when you kill someone.

You lose PvP experience when someone kills you.

Makes sense to me.

Venger · May 2008

Very well thought out and very true. Only thing I would say is there needs to be more risk for the pker.

shadenis · May 2008

Originally posted by Experimemt13

Originally posted by h4te

Originally posted by Experimemt13

H4te, people put forth the exact same argument on the official forums a long time ago.... And have been ignored...
Pity, isn't it?
LOTS of arguments were put forth... good ones too.
So?
Vote with YOUR FEET!
Don't play the FFA servers if you don't like the result!
If you like it? Then go for it!
Let the customers decide and let the chips fall where they may

I haven't been keeping track with this game like most of the people here... In fact, today is the first time i actually looked into this game since im looking for a new MMO to play during the summer. Im not here to beg for a change from the developers. as i don't care about this game as much as some of you do. All im saying is that this kind of "FFA" is not gonna get this game anywhere, and very disappointed to see the "next big MMO" turns out like this. Unless some serious changes are made, i guarantee you that this games not gonna get much further than the "sold out preorders"...

Right now, the game to me sounds a lot like one of those 5000x exp lineage2 private servers, where random 12 yr olds sit around and gank each other all day long and act like gangsters, without any purpose or meaning to it. Heck, even these private owned servers were smart enough to figure out creating peace zones at spawn points after teleporting/load. GG AoC.

I'm just gonna pass on this game and wait for WAR/Aion now.

I hear what you are saying H4te... But the game plays pretty good. At least "I" am enjoying it quite nicely.

It's worth playing, just roll PVE to avoid meaningless PVP.

Hh.... Um, you might just be a pure PVP sort. If you are and can't stomach meaningless death penalties? Avoid it!

Otherwise, it's really tasty!

the problem is , like i said, it plagues the whole pvp system core.

I am also talking about the pve servers. Sure, pve is safe and i don't have problems with those servers, they are fine but unfortunately, the border kingdoms will also be affected by this. The border kingdoms will just be a smaller version of the pvp servers.

Ala, griefer paradise in the BK of the pve servers. You will get the same effect, just on a smaller scale because there is no death penalty, no risk vs reward and no politics, the griefers will also win on the pve servers in the border kingdom. You can kill them but they will be back with full health everything.

It will be the same, just on a smaller scale so if u think people that pvp will be meaningful in the pve servers, they u are sadly mistaken.

You will just get the same effect as on the pvp servers, but just on a smaller scale.

That's why i said, if they don't change this, pvp is doomed for all servers.

shadenis · May 2008

Originally posted by Aramanu

bit of an oxymoron.. the guy wants FFA but with rules? HELLO?!
FFA = FREE FOR ALL, that means do what you want when you want however you want.

you want rules? play on the culture-pvp server or better yet take your anti-anarchistic self to a pve server.

some of us prefer mayham in our games mainly cos most of our RL is governed by silly rules anyway.

Tough talk, maybe i am tougher because i played meredian and pre trammel with full loot and D2 hardcore mode and omost all games with FFA i have played.

Sorry but the honest fact and truth is.

FFA without rules,risk vs reward etc. leads to a failure. Another thing i would like to say is: if you want no rules , then the server ruleset must be named: mayhem because no rules= no FFA.

If you have played UO, EVE etc. then u understand me , if you don't and are just whining for no rules and think you are the real man, then i am sorry to disappoint you but that's not gonna happen.

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Why age of conan pvp design fails but why world pvp/open pvp DOESN'T fail !

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Why age of conan pvp design fails but why world pvp/open pvp DOESN'T fail !

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