AOC took a mini step tward FACTION warfare with there last minute racial ruleset.They just need to take DAOC ruleset and polish it a touch..and it will be a winner.
from what i understand when they orginally sold AoC idea it was supposed to be faction based warfare. Choose a side and help it conquer other kingdoms thru active RvR. So if you are Aquilionian you will fight be fighting with Stygians and Cimmerian guilds. Also you can switch sides so your race can be Stygian and you can fight with Cimmerians and so on.
This week, many claim pvp fails, especially, open world pvp fails . They now say the times of open world pvp are over, the time of instanced battlegrounds, instanced arenas are the key to success or saying that pvp totally fails and pve is the way to go.
This is all wrong! Mmo's are like mini societies, age of conan has FFA ( free for all) it basically implies, you can attack omost everyone , everywhere ( except in hubs). In RL, we can also do that, but if we kill someone , we are tagged as a murderer or as a criminal, when we flee or hide us somewhere, cops are looking for you, wanting to arrest you and will put you in a jail where u stay for years and years. This is just one of the many penalties we have in RL. We always use laws and rules, we always use it. Now , i may ask: what happens if we put those laws out of it. All those rules gone , everyone can do what ever he wishes , he can do anything but the negative side of the story is that then everything is a total mayhem. Human nature cannot live without rules, if we don't have rules,it's total chaos.
The same implies for mmo's with FFA. Without any rules, it is a total mayhem. That is the reason why age of conan pvp fails. It didn't created anything, just a thing that u can attack everyone, that's not FFA, that is mayhem , that is dumb pvp, idiotic design over the top , i would call it. By example: EVE is FFA totally but i has rules , like FFA suppose to have. They have security zones, a penalty for dying ala risk vs reward and the list goes on.
UO and L2 also had this but in a bit less. EVE improved on these structures and basically improved FFA, improved the formula FFA and basically made it better. You can still attack anyone, but you will face the consequenses, ala it is still FFA because it is just a term. Free for all but with rules and laws that do not restrict freedom is how FFA should suppose to be, always , there are no exceptions. Age of conan fails with this because you can kill someone, but he comes back with full health, he has nothing to worry, there is no sense of fear in age of conan. You can kill those griefers, but it doesn't hurt them, they always come back, the only penalty that could happen to them is boredom but that is a utterly bad design. Politics cannot happen since there is no risk vs reward, there is no penalty, there is no law, there is nothing, just total mayhem. If AOC doesn't change this, then pvp will fail on all servers, border kingdoms will fail, open world pvp will fail, everything because there are no rules, no risk vs reward, NOTHING! It all leads to meaningless pvp. A utterly bad flawed design in my eyes that needs to be fixed ASAP! AOC could have a karma system, a penalty for dying, BH system, security zones, remove those hub protection and just go for that security system ala , at cities , it is high security and wilderness , it is low security and between those, it is mid-security. Dying could be some kind of looting system, it does not need to have ful loot but one item loss is already enough. YOU JUST HAVE TO MAKE THE PVP MEANINGFUL!
Now into world pvp/open world pvp design. Many claim it fails but it isn't. RVR is another term that leads to world pvp. RVR is more balanced in laws then FFA and that's why RVR didn''t have those problems. The only mmo with good RVR is DAOC. World of warcraft has not even got any RVR, it also doesn't got world pvp since there are no politics, warface , RVR or FFA, there is nothing, nothing else then skirmish battles that range from 10 vs 10 to 50 VS 50 RVR and FFA are both terms that are used to create WORLD PVP/OPEN WORLD PVP. DAOC, Uo, EVE , L2, AC DT etc. etc. did not fail . You can say , one was more niche then the other but that all depends on the company. Example: niche numbers like 200k is a huge success for a small company , while bigger companies would like to have numbers like 300-500 k minimum. It all depends who the company is. Even if it is niche, niche does not mean it is a failure since niche is for every company DIFFERENT! DAOC had world pvp , relic fights, keep battles , realm pride, name it! THAT IS OPEN WORLD PVP. While in UO, politics happened, warface , that was FFA ( free for all). The same counts for EVE but EVE has a better system designed that is MORE BALANCED. I had a dream , a dream that pve and pvp could live with eachother together, that instanced pvp wasn't a problem and that world pvp wasn't a problem. Instanced pvp = fine but it is NOT the priority of a mmorpg pvp design. WORLD PVP IS!
AOC pvp fails atm. It doesn't when FC creates a balance like a law system, a risk vs reward system ala , a penalty for death. Then , only THEN, you will see how FFA works dear people. What you experienced in age of conan was not FFA but was MAYHEM! World pvp never failed, it never did.. Shadowbane? Own fault, not FFA, but the unbalanced game it was, the bugs , the many other reasons it failed. L2 bots syndrome and VG was already a fail. FC just needs to create a ruleset with a decent risk vs reward, a decent law system, rule system and balance that and keep the FFA intact, then, only then everyhing will be fine.
ok, too many to read, i just can read to "Age of conan will fails with this because you can kill someone ... etc and etc ..."
but you should remember " The rule is created by humans. " if you kill some one, he will come back with his friends.
so "guild vs guild, nation vs nation" that makes the game has a real social in the age of conan ( not be the name of game )
That is what they - Funcom want to give you - the feeling of the real Chaos World in the Conan's World - nearer the mmo's real feeling.
So, if you dont like that. You can join the PvE or RP-PvP server for your arena, battlegroud, etc ... with the your rule.
With me, im so happy with the Pk game.
Are they success or fail ? I dont care, just fun with it.
What r these games i played : World of Warcraft, GuildWar, Lineage2, Ragnarok, Rohan ... etc ... and more much more .... all games i maxed lvl and was keep playing more then 5 months per each game.
I can find points of agreement with almost every single post in this thread. However, I lean most towards Sovrath's p.o.v.
Conan lore is steeped in anarchist, anti-social behavior and mistrust of your fellow man
If you want to go solo through life, you have a long row to hoe. You need allies until your strength reaches the point that no one can cross you. Will the player base be willing to do what it takes to make life miserable for those who want to disrupt the "way of life" in the game? This is supposed to be an MMO for adults - let's start acting like adults and bring actual maturity (not just tits and gore) to the experience.
As to a risk/reward mechanic for pvp, would it be feasible to tie "illegal" behavior in with experience gain? In other words, if you engage other players at a spawn point/zone entrance, you get a non-removable debuff that removes your ability to gain xp, and stacks as you continue to grief at that place. At some point, you can actually remove xp and hence, levels.
You could apply some other kind of debuff if the player you kill is more than 10 levels below you. Say, a slowing effect that makes you walk like you're in quicksand for 10 minutes. Something that makes griefing more annoying to the griefer than to the griefed.
all i gotta say is just give it a little time the game is not even out yet. all the game mentioned have really had time to work out how pvp will go in there game just give aoc some time to do the same.
Consequences are absolutely vital to the success of FFA PvP. I was frankly very surprised that Funcom did not add any sort of penalties for random PK. Without penalties, how are there ever supposed to be any politics? I do hope that Funcom adopts does some tweaking on the current system.
I love to PVP and if a player wants total chaos good for them.
However most players want some rules to pvp by.
Some players mentioned WOW. I beta tested it and played on a pvp server with no rules. The first patch they got changed on the live version. Rulesets will and do change.
Conan is not going to be for everyone and funcom knows this. It is the Eve of fantasy mmorpg's, so to speak. Do not take this wrong, but if the game developers does not like to see customers leaving they change rulesets almost immediately.
I personally do not like higher level players running all over killing quest mobs and lower level players. Talk about tough pvp one player spoke about lineage 2, Hell in CB and the first month's of the game you dropped items and lost XP. Now that was fun!!
Made you think twice before becoming a murderer. Real pvp IMHO needs some rulesets and some penalties.
Having said all this, the final version of the game is not out yet. I still will give the FFA a try. I hate total PVE as it gets so boring holding hands with my enemy or that kill stealing farmer!!!
Please keep in mind that all melee attacks in AoC are area of effect! If we add too great of a PK penalty (via guards or debuffs) low level players will then be able to actually grief others!! Walk up to someone attacking a random monster, stand next to the monster, bam, you forced them the grief you! With penalties involved this could be just as bad as no penalties...
I say the bounty system Funcom is adding is the best solution, and is already planned if not in game now (haven't looked for it).
what a lot of people here dont understand is that all human actions are based on reward/penalties.
You don't kill some random guy you see on the street because you would be punished by going to jail (penalty)
You study hard to get into a good college so you can get a better job therefore earn more money (reward)
Without the two, our lives would be pointless. People would be able to do whatever they want, but without any actual reason/purpose for doing so. And since MMO is basically a simulation of real life(or tires to be), the exact same would happen.
People keep saying "one can always call their friend to gank back". But what for? So the enemy can hit the respawn button and come back and fight you all over again? And what did you lose by being killed? Nothing. Is it really worth your time to gather your clan/alliance to fight back, knowing that your opponent will lose nothing in return as well?
With no real goal or purpose, politics don't exist. Therefore what you have is a bunch of 12 yrs olds killing each other just for the hell of it. Fun? Maybe for an hour.
Some sort of ruleset must be in for FFA to be fun. If you kill you're own 'race' you should get a penalty for it. Orelse it's like playing Quake online. But it doesn't sound like it was build with PvP as a core of the game. Sure 'end game raids' with siegning, but until then? UO, EvE, Shadowbane and SWG is/were for me, the best game for PvP. But I will try AoC and see if I like it or not. Will keep in mind that this is not a PvP centric game.
omg half u poeple just dont get it.... RISK VS REWARD system isnt about penaltys.... if u kill someone u shouldnt get a penalty ......its about RISK and RISK mean u can get away with it.
if i gank someone, the risk im taking is that i will die, thus losing all my stuff (an example of what might the risk be) the reward of what im aiming for is to gain all the targets stuff.......... thus making me think is it worth the risk of losing all my gear to get the targets gear ?
there are many variations of what the RISK could be... ITS NOT A PENALTY!!!!
what a lot of people here dont understand is that all human actions are based on reward/penalties. You don't kill some random guy you see on the street because you would be punished by going to jail (penalty) You study hard to get into a good college so you can get a better job therefore earn more money (reward) Without the two, our lives would be pointless. People would be able to do whatever they want, but without any actual reason/purpose for doing so. And since MMO is basically a simulation of real life(or tires to be), the exact same would happen. People keep saying "one can always call their friend to gank back". But what for? So the enemy can hit the respawn button and come back and fight you all over again? And what did you lose by being killed? Nothing. Is it really worth your time to gather your clan/alliance to fight back, knowing that your opponent will lose nothing in return as well? With no real goal or purpose, politics don't exist. Therefore what you have is a bunch of 12 yrs olds killing each other just for the hell of it. Fun? Maybe for an hour.
Its not real life, its a game.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
what a lot of people here dont understand is that all human actions are based on reward/penalties. You don't kill some random guy you see on the street because you would be punished by going to jail (penalty) You study hard to get into a good college so you can get a better job therefore earn more money (reward) Without the two, our lives would be pointless. People would be able to do whatever they want, but without any actual reason/purpose for doing so. And since MMO is basically a simulation of real life(or tires to be), the exact same would happen. People keep saying "one can always call their friend to gank back". But what for? So the enemy can hit the respawn button and come back and fight you all over again? And what did you lose by being killed? Nothing. Is it really worth your time to gather your clan/alliance to fight back, knowing that your opponent will lose nothing in return as well? With no real goal or purpose, politics don't exist. Therefore what you have is a bunch of 12 yrs olds killing each other just for the hell of it. Fun? Maybe for an hour.
Its not real life, its a game.
if you think killing each other with no reason or purpose is fun for a MMO, knock yourself out and enjoy AoC.
what a lot of people here dont understand is that all human actions are based on reward/penalties. You don't kill some random guy you see on the street because you would be punished by going to jail (penalty) You study hard to get into a good college so you can get a better job therefore earn more money (reward) Without the two, our lives would be pointless. People would be able to do whatever they want, but without any actual reason/purpose for doing so. And since MMO is basically a simulation of real life(or tires to be), the exact same would happen. People keep saying "one can always call their friend to gank back". But what for? So the enemy can hit the respawn button and come back and fight you all over again? And what did you lose by being killed? Nothing. Is it really worth your time to gather your clan/alliance to fight back, knowing that your opponent will lose nothing in return as well? With no real goal or purpose, politics don't exist. Therefore what you have is a bunch of 12 yrs olds killing each other just for the hell of it. Fun? Maybe for an hour.
I'm afraid that is up to the individual to make that decision whether it is worth it or not.
If I kill you and you are "pissed" then obviously there could be some deterrent because you can do the same to me.
For example, a while ago I was leveling in L2, drinking a good beer and listening to music. suddenly this guy comes and ganks me. He is a few lvls lower but by the time I find him I have a decent amount of hp gone. I say something like gf or whatever and he runs by with his "sexay" (I roll eyes at that but whatever).
A week or so later I see him, he runs I follow and kill him and he goes ballistic. Now, keep in mind, we most likely didn't lose any xp when either of us died because of blessed resurrection scrolls. Still, they cost a bit of money.
I suppose in AoC, if you want to "piss off" the person ganking you, then that is reason enough to "get your friends" and take them out. Still, it is pvp. This is a pvp game. So why wouldn't you want to fight back? If it's just to get something or to cause an issue with your enemy then there are usually ways to mitigate this.
I personally have fun in pvp and that is an end in and of itself. Regardless of what penalties there are. I mean, heck, people play guild wars pvp (which I have found very fun) but there aren't really any penalties. Still enjoyable.
But in the end, I suppose there should be something so that players can think twice. But remember, no matter what penalty they put in, thereare always going to be players who don't care and will take that penalty. There was a guy in L2 who had so many pk's that he actually reached a maximum and turned "white" (in L2 your name turns red if you kill someone) uncovering a bug in the system.
So you should like pvp and you should pvp when you can. Because I would question the person who plays a pvp game and can only pvp if there are penalties. Seems to me that they are focusing on "the hurt". Or, perhaps a better incentive would be no penalties but the winner of a skirmish gets some sort of buff. The more people he kills the greater the advantage up to a capped limit. Once he is killed you start over. Just an idea (though not an original idea... I've seen it mentioned before.)
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The thing is, the actual "carebears" are those who don't want a death penalty, a risk Vs reward system in "FFA" PvP. A no consequence if you die, so that you can hang around in the "world" and do anything you want without a consequence. That's just leads to an "arena" style way of thinking, even though the arena now is the big world of the ffa server.
"We", on the other hand say, to apply a ruleset, a risk Vs reward system, a death penalty of shorts or something, meaningful, so that those who want to play/roleplay a bad/evil character going around griefing, spawn camping etc may eventually have to face consequences that will make them think twice next time.
I don't know about you, the "hardcore" *cough* PvPers, but when I join a game with no consequence when dieing or killing, I just.........yawn.
PS: Don't forget, all the games with decent pvp rulesets (Lineage II, Eve Online etc) besides the risk Vs rewars system had also other systems implemented like "free" war waging Vs enemy guilds etc, so the PvPers were actually focusing on the healthy aspect of PvPing rather than griefing some poor guy, some 40 lvls lower at the spawn point etcetc
Comments
They could just make it so that if your in combat you cant zone out. It does sound gay that you can escape A battle via zoning.
AOC took a mini step tward FACTION warfare with there last minute racial ruleset.They just need to take DAOC ruleset and polish it a touch..and it will be a winner.
from what i understand when they orginally sold AoC idea it was supposed to be faction based warfare. Choose a side and help it conquer other kingdoms thru active RvR. So if you are Aquilionian you will fight be fighting with Stygians and Cimmerian guilds. Also you can switch sides so your race can be Stygian and you can fight with Cimmerians and so on.
ok, too many to read, i just can read to "Age of conan will fails with this because you can kill someone ... etc and etc ..."
but you should remember " The rule is created by humans. " if you kill some one, he will come back with his friends.
so "guild vs guild, nation vs nation" that makes the game has a real social in the age of conan ( not be the name of game )
That is what they - Funcom want to give you - the feeling of the real Chaos World in the Conan's World - nearer the mmo's real feeling.
So, if you dont like that. You can join the PvE or RP-PvP server for your arena, battlegroud, etc ... with the your rule.
With me, im so happy with the Pk game.
Are they success or fail ? I dont care, just fun with it.
What r these games i played : World of Warcraft, GuildWar, Lineage2, Ragnarok, Rohan ... etc ... and more much more .... all games i maxed lvl and was keep playing more then 5 months per each game.
I can find points of agreement with almost every single post in this thread. However, I lean most towards Sovrath's p.o.v.
Conan lore is steeped in anarchist, anti-social behavior and mistrust of your fellow man
If you want to go solo through life, you have a long row to hoe. You need allies until your strength reaches the point that no one can cross you. Will the player base be willing to do what it takes to make life miserable for those who want to disrupt the "way of life" in the game? This is supposed to be an MMO for adults - let's start acting like adults and bring actual maturity (not just tits and gore) to the experience.
As to a risk/reward mechanic for pvp, would it be feasible to tie "illegal" behavior in with experience gain? In other words, if you engage other players at a spawn point/zone entrance, you get a non-removable debuff that removes your ability to gain xp, and stacks as you continue to grief at that place. At some point, you can actually remove xp and hence, levels.
You could apply some other kind of debuff if the player you kill is more than 10 levels below you. Say, a slowing effect that makes you walk like you're in quicksand for 10 minutes. Something that makes griefing more annoying to the griefer than to the griefed.
Is this kind of thing implementable?
all i gotta say is just give it a little time the game is not even out yet. all the game mentioned have really had time to work out how pvp will go in there game just give aoc some time to do the same.
I agree 100% with what the OP said.
Consequences are absolutely vital to the success of FFA PvP. I was frankly very surprised that Funcom did not add any sort of penalties for random PK. Without penalties, how are there ever supposed to be any politics? I do hope that Funcom adopts does some tweaking on the current system.
I love to PVP and if a player wants total chaos good for them.
However most players want some rules to pvp by.
Some players mentioned WOW. I beta tested it and played on a pvp server with no rules. The first patch they got changed on the live version. Rulesets will and do change.
Conan is not going to be for everyone and funcom knows this. It is the Eve of fantasy mmorpg's, so to speak. Do not take this wrong, but if the game developers does not like to see customers leaving they change rulesets almost immediately.
I personally do not like higher level players running all over killing quest mobs and lower level players. Talk about tough pvp one player spoke about lineage 2, Hell in CB and the first month's of the game you dropped items and lost XP. Now that was fun!!
Made you think twice before becoming a murderer. Real pvp IMHO needs some rulesets and some penalties.
Having said all this, the final version of the game is not out yet. I still will give the FFA a try. I hate total PVE as it gets so boring holding hands with my enemy or that kill stealing farmer!!!
*****
Please keep in mind that all melee attacks in AoC are area of effect! If we add too great of a PK penalty (via guards or debuffs) low level players will then be able to actually grief others!! Walk up to someone attacking a random monster, stand next to the monster, bam, you forced them the grief you! With penalties involved this could be just as bad as no penalties...
I say the bounty system Funcom is adding is the best solution, and is already planned if not in game now (haven't looked for it).
what a lot of people here dont understand is that all human actions are based on reward/penalties.
You don't kill some random guy you see on the street because you would be punished by going to jail (penalty)
You study hard to get into a good college so you can get a better job therefore earn more money (reward)
Without the two, our lives would be pointless. People would be able to do whatever they want, but without any actual reason/purpose for doing so. And since MMO is basically a simulation of real life(or tires to be), the exact same would happen.
People keep saying "one can always call their friend to gank back". But what for? So the enemy can hit the respawn button and come back and fight you all over again? And what did you lose by being killed? Nothing. Is it really worth your time to gather your clan/alliance to fight back, knowing that your opponent will lose nothing in return as well?
With no real goal or purpose, politics don't exist. Therefore what you have is a bunch of 12 yrs olds killing each other just for the hell of it. Fun? Maybe for an hour.
omg half u poeple just dont get it.... RISK VS REWARD system isnt about penaltys.... if u kill someone u shouldnt get a penalty ......its about RISK and RISK mean u can get away with it.
if i gank someone, the risk im taking is that i will die, thus losing all my stuff (an example of what might the risk be) the reward of what im aiming for is to gain all the targets stuff.......... thus making me think is it worth the risk of losing all my gear to get the targets gear ?
there are many variations of what the RISK could be... ITS NOT A PENALTY!!!!
Its not real life, its a game.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Its not real life, its a game.
if you think killing each other with no reason or purpose is fun for a MMO, knock yourself out and enjoy AoC.
I'm afraid that is up to the individual to make that decision whether it is worth it or not.
If I kill you and you are "pissed" then obviously there could be some deterrent because you can do the same to me.
For example, a while ago I was leveling in L2, drinking a good beer and listening to music. suddenly this guy comes and ganks me. He is a few lvls lower but by the time I find him I have a decent amount of hp gone. I say something like gf or whatever and he runs by with his "sexay" (I roll eyes at that but whatever).
A week or so later I see him, he runs I follow and kill him and he goes ballistic. Now, keep in mind, we most likely didn't lose any xp when either of us died because of blessed resurrection scrolls. Still, they cost a bit of money.
I suppose in AoC, if you want to "piss off" the person ganking you, then that is reason enough to "get your friends" and take them out. Still, it is pvp. This is a pvp game. So why wouldn't you want to fight back? If it's just to get something or to cause an issue with your enemy then there are usually ways to mitigate this.
I personally have fun in pvp and that is an end in and of itself. Regardless of what penalties there are. I mean, heck, people play guild wars pvp (which I have found very fun) but there aren't really any penalties. Still enjoyable.
But in the end, I suppose there should be something so that players can think twice. But remember, no matter what penalty they put in, thereare always going to be players who don't care and will take that penalty. There was a guy in L2 who had so many pk's that he actually reached a maximum and turned "white" (in L2 your name turns red if you kill someone) uncovering a bug in the system.
So you should like pvp and you should pvp when you can. Because I would question the person who plays a pvp game and can only pvp if there are penalties. Seems to me that they are focusing on "the hurt". Or, perhaps a better incentive would be no penalties but the winner of a skirmish gets some sort of buff. The more people he kills the greater the advantage up to a capped limit. Once he is killed you start over. Just an idea (though not an original idea... I've seen it mentioned before.)
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The thing is, the actual "carebears" are those who don't want a death penalty, a risk Vs reward system in "FFA" PvP. A no consequence if you die, so that you can hang around in the "world" and do anything you want without a consequence. That's just leads to an "arena" style way of thinking, even though the arena now is the big world of the ffa server.
"We", on the other hand say, to apply a ruleset, a risk Vs reward system, a death penalty of shorts or something, meaningful, so that those who want to play/roleplay a bad/evil character going around griefing, spawn camping etc may eventually have to face consequences that will make them think twice next time.
I don't know about you, the "hardcore" *cough* PvPers, but when I join a game with no consequence when dieing or killing, I just.........yawn.
PS: Don't forget, all the games with decent pvp rulesets (Lineage II, Eve Online etc) besides the risk Vs rewars system had also other systems implemented like "free" war waging Vs enemy guilds etc, so the PvPers were actually focusing on the healthy aspect of PvPing rather than griefing some poor guy, some 40 lvls lower at the spawn point etcetc