I hate to turn this thread into a WoW fanboy vs basher fest, but as someone who's been playing WoW since nearly a year before Burning Crusade to present...
That last post makes me laugh. You've obviously never played UO or the old EQ. You could fight anyone or anything. You're a noble knight of good? If you want, you can work at turning totally evil and go chill out with the dark elves in their city. A Dark Elf could strive to overcome his heritage and fight alongside good. All races and alignments could play and group and form guilds together.
In UO you never had to fight anything ever. you could make chars who did nothing but craft. Or design houses for people. Or just rob those same houses. It was like GTA online, only with crappy graphics.
Don't get me wrong WoW has diversified a lot, but it's nowhere near a sandbox. And again, not a bad thing. To each their own.
AoC is not a sandbox game. It never claimed to be. There won't be a mainstream sandbox style MMO for a long time to come. Deal with it.
Fallen Earth is sandbox. It doesnt have levels and classes, yes there are MMO's that dont force you to choose a tank, healer, or dps class.
Imagine being able to choose any skill you want, dabble in many things or specialize in one or two. This is the beauty of sandbox MMO's, you arent forced to play one limiting role.
Its been in development for about 3.5 years now so its closing in on release (sometime in Q1 2009 possibly) but there is no official release date yet
Sorry, but this kinda irritates me. "I like sandboxes. AoC isn't a sandbox, ergo AoC is a bad game." Is pretty much the OP's statement in a nutshell. Ok so uh...I like hockey. I don't like baseball. So the team that won the world series last year must be a bad team, because they play baseball. If they played hockey I'd like them even if they lost every game. Yeah.....that's fair. Guys, judge an apple for an apple and an orange for an orange. AoC never has claimed to be a sandbox. It's been pretty obvious from day 1 it's going to be a fairly typical EQ/WoW-esque quasi-linear MMORPG with a few neat quirks. If you ask me, it has succeeded in that claim. And that's not a bad thing. As much as sandbox fanboys complain that "everyone" wants a more open game, the sales records on titles like EQ, WoW, etc seem to imply otherwise. Admittedly EVE's done a nice job in creating a playerbase for itself, but by and large the masses seem to prefer a linear hackfest. The trick is making it a FUN linear hackfest. If AoC can do that, then it's a good game.
(Author's disclaimer: I'm not saying a sandbox Fantasy MMO wouldn't be cool, and I'd like to see one done well. But I'm not going to judge Conan for something it isn't and hasn't pretended to be.)
I never said Age of Conan was a bad game
I never said I thought Age of Conan mislead me into believing it was going to be sandbox.
My point is AoC is like all linear games, fun for a while but then the story ends. Players like me want something more.
I also made this post because Ive noticed there are a surprisingly large amount of players who have no concept of anything other than wowish MMO's. Millions of players only know WoW and possibly LOTR and AoC now. Its foreign to them that MMO's can have no levels or classes.
AoC is not a sandbox game. It never claimed to be. There won't be a mainstream sandbox style MMO for a long time to come. Deal with it.
Fallen Earth is sandbox. It doesnt have levels and classes, yes there are MMO's that dont force you to choose a tank, healer, or dps class.
Imagine being able to choose any skill you want, dabble in many things or specialize in one or two. This is the beauty of sandbox MMO's, you arent forced to play one limiting role.
Its been in development for about 3.5 years now so its closing in on release (sometime in Q1 2009 possibly) but there is no official release date yet
You know what happens in these MMOs with that skill system?... A few choice skill templates are used by 99% of the players... limiting them to a chosen role.
"You know what happens in these MMOs with that skill system?... A few choice skill templates are used by 99% of the players... limiting them to a chosen role."
Yeah but atleast they have their choice to do that weither they chose "tank" or "Healer"
Look the OP said like 5 times that AoC isn't a bad game, he just doesn't like the way it is because he prefers the ability to chose his own character traits instead of them being handed to him and set in stone. I know a decent sandbox MMO before SoE ruined it. The Matrix Online
The Matrix Online had the plus to change up abilities on the fly, all you needed was the ability and a hardline. And there was no class set in concrete or anything, that way anyone can play any character class with any skill that they wanted, and all they needed was the level requirements and the skill itself from a local vendor. Not to mention the live events. What happened in the live events and what people did made the writers change the story line based on what happened. They didn't write out the entire story before the game was released, they update it every 2 weeks or so with a different chapter based on what happens on the servers. That my friends, is sandbox.
I haven't played AoC yet and I hope to get a buddy key sometime soon (Still haven't gotten one, EMAIL ME! ) but from everything I read it seems like the modern story driven MMO. Which doesn't sound like a bad thing. WoW is a story driven MMO, and is based on the writers, not the players.
Not to mention that I found WoW boring after a month or two. Level 37 mage and a 33 Rogue for those who are going to bash me on not being at level 70.
OP has a point, and I think his review is valid. He said it was a good game. Just not his style. Explained why not his style, and defended his opinion. Read it, take it for what it is, and move on. You really want to see if you'll like the game, play it for yourself.
For those of you that play DOTA on Warcraft 3. <This guy looks like Ezalor - The Keeper of the Light. Lol.
You know what happens in these MMOs with that skill system?... A few choice skill templates are used by 99% of the players... limiting them to a chosen role.
That statistic is completely unfounded and untrue. Yes, there will be "Flavor of the Month (FotM)" templates. And they will be used by many players, those who like to "Min/Max". But 99%? No, sorry. FotM are present across all genres, even in WoW, for example... when The Burning Crusade released, the FotM was a Blood Elf Hunter. They were everywhere. But they did not then or now comprise 99% of the player population.
You know what happens in these MMOs with that skill system?... A few choice skill templates are used by 99% of the players... limiting them to a chosen role.
That statistic is completely unfounded and untrue. Yes, there will be "Flavor of the Month (FotM)" templates. And they will be used by many players, those who like to "Min/Max". But 99%? No, sorry. FotM are present across all genres, even in WoW, for example... when The Burning Crusade released, the FotM was a Blood Elf Hunter. They were everywhere. But they did not then or now comprise 99% of the player population.
Ok, you're saying I'm wrong... so how about a link to what they actually are?
AoC is not a sandbox game. It never claimed to be. There won't be a mainstream sandbox style MMO for a long time to come. Deal with it.
Fallen Earth is sandbox. It doesnt have levels and classes, yes there are MMO's that dont force you to choose a tank, healer, or dps class.
Imagine being able to choose any skill you want, dabble in many things or specialize in one or two. This is the beauty of sandbox MMO's, you arent forced to play one limiting role.
Its been in development for about 3.5 years now so its closing in on release (sometime in Q1 2009 possibly) but there is no official release date yet
You know what happens in these MMOs with that skill system?... A few choice skill templates are used by 99% of the players... limiting them to a chosen role.
this is sorta true, for the pvpers anyway. They find the best template for pvp and soon everyone copies em. Thats really no different though than class based games with their talent system.
I like the freedom to choose any skills which benefit me the most in a sandbox. And that doesnt mean I'll be the best at something either.
In Star Wars Galaxies for example, I went ranger for the roleplay aspect (those tent/camps were so dam cool). I also went teras kasi master so I could pretty much solo most mobs. I took up novice entertainer so I could hang out in the cantinas and mess around. I wasnt defined as a tank, a hunter / dps class, a rogue, nothing. I had a little bit of everything I wanted in my toon.
Its silly that I cant pick up a two hand sword and use it because the developer of that game says "mages cant use two hand swords"
Its ridiculous that if I want to try a new ability I must start an entirely new character.
Again, Im not saying AoC is a bad game. Im having a blast playing. But I want more
the main issue I see is getting this new massive influx of MMO gamers educated into knowing that sandbox approach even exists. WoW brought in millions of new MMO gamers who think that WoW is how all MMO's are. All they know is linear quest focused combat style gameplay.
How many of your friends (or you) are aware that in some MMO's you can be just a crafter ? Not crafting as a secondary class but solely a crafter ?
How about housing ? Are you all aware that in some MMO's you get to place a house (not in some instance either like LOTR) ?
How about that some MMO's dont have levels ?
How about that in some MMO's items decay or wear out ?
These above features are disappearing because all the devs think about now is making more of these flashy amusement park theme MMO's. Its sad that several MMO's 5-10 years ago had 10 times the features today's MMO's have. And players arent saying "hey where is my house" because they dont even know thats something we used to get
let me chime in on this topic for a bit. The OP is expressing his opinion, nothing more. My own opinion about AOC is that, when i think of Hyboria, Conan and the whole vibe, i don't think about running quest after quest to lvl up and become stuck in a certain class.
I can see the forums a few months from now with people bitching and moaning that their class is not needed for raids and needs to be fixed to make them have more utitlity in a group situation. Sounds familar doesn't it.
I envisioned a Hyboria that was wide open, and dangerous. Where i could be a bararian and also a skill assassin/thief. Where certain places like Stygia was dangerous and brutal because it was, not because it's where a dev decided that's were lvl 60 to 80 made it that way.
The sandbox game design gives people that type of option. It let's a player become part of the game world, not put's a player on a some type of crazy mission to hit lvl cap as fast as they can and have to raid/pvp for the most uber gear to compete.
I'm not saying that there's no place for a linear based mmo, lord knows that WOW has done it better than all of them. But honestly when you get to AOC, beside the graphics, you basically are playing WOW with a new skin, and minor differances.
I guess that's what dissapoints me the most. I have much broader defintion of the Conan world than what FC has.
The critics of the OP are laughable. The OP stated its a well made linear game. By the nature of a linear game the content runs stale much faster than that of a sandbox game.
He doesn't need to reach level 80 to make such an assessment. The game is not going to suddenly morph into a sandbox game.
I never said Age of Conan was a bad game I never said I thought Age of Conan mislead me into believing it was going to be sandbox. My point is AoC is like all linear games, fun for a while but then the story ends. Players like me want something more. I also made this post because Ive noticed there are a surprisingly large amount of players who have no concept of anything other than wowish MMO's. Millions of players only know WoW and possibly LOTR and AoC now. Its foreign to them that MMO's can have no levels or classes.
The problem is that your definition of a sandbox is rather vague.
The end game of any MMO consists of personal fine tuning your avatar. The way you can do this is the degree of different choices and ways to accomplish this by making up you own personal sandbox.
That's why I stated personal sandboxes. Games that don't offer many choices in advancing the characters are indeed dead meat MMORPG's. I think LOTRO was about the last one launched that way.
But I doubt even Conan won't have this degree of fine tuning on a personal sandbox base. Because Wow indeed adopted its end game choices dramatically.
I do know what MMORPG's are and by my age I think I played Dungeons and Dragons even before your were born, But like I said, I smiled when I read the comments.
wow has classes and levels. thats about as opposite from sandbox as you can get. WoW type games will have you move along via quests to area lvl 1-5, then your off to area lvl 6-10. Then when those are done, its off to the next area lvl 11-17...maybe toss in a dungeon for that same lvl. Then again its time to move to the next area of entertainment for lvls 18-24. When thats done, head to the next area...etc etc. Sandbox games dont do this linear approach. Its boring, simplistic, and limiting.
I do understand your point that there is some freedom to tweak and improve your avatar in the endgame of wow and other linear games.
The point though is your still stuck as a tank. Yes you can test out a new talent or work to get a better shield. But in the end, you will always be a tank. And in the case of most of today's MMO's, a tank without a house and many other freedoms that sandbox gives you
The critics of the OP are laughable. The OP stated its a well made linear game. By the nature of a linear game the content runs stale much faster than that of a sandbox game. He doesn't need to reach level 80 to make such an assessment. The game is not going to suddenly morph into a sandbox game.
i agree with the above. The thing about pure quest based mmorpgs is that once you've reached cap the next alt you make will just accept quests without reading, unless you skipped parts on your main.
Like i loved lotro quests and storyline but once you done it the alt ride will be alot less fun.
Problem with such games is they leave no real room for creativity from the player. Like in the old games you'd roam around and meet people and decide to group up and hang out together, talk while grinding mobs and add to your friend list.
In currend pure quest based games everything goes much faster. You come to a quest point. see more people there. Ask an invite and finish quest. Maybe do 1 or 2 more quests together and then disband and move on.
Current quest baded mmorpg dont encourage social activity much like older games did.
I mean look at games like lotro. You group up for a quest and hardly anyone speaks. They just finish and move on again. In the older mmorpgs you actually had the time to spend talking and would get to know people.
In older games you had the initiative of what to do, not the game steering you. You'd go to whatever zone and find people to group with and do your thing. While in new mmorpgs everyone is going the same direction following the quest lines. There's a big difference.
Older sand box types of games had quests too, just not that many. They left alot of room for your own creativity of what to do next. It had grind though and noone really liked grind even though it had its good sides also like social activity and exploration and non linear. The answer to grind were quests. Just i do think since wow all mmorpgs are going overboard with the quests. Simply to many of m !
Leaving no room for creativity from the player, no room to socialize, making it to much of a single player experience instead of a group experience like the old mmorpgs. Alot of mmorpgs which are quest based even totally remove any proper xp from monsters in case you dont feel like questing. They in a sense force you to quest removing pretty much all creativity and initiative.
I think its a big shame mmorpgs nowadays have instanced bg's for pvp and are totally quest based only.
Dont get me wrong i do enjoy questing also and i do enjoy both soloing and grouping but i also realize that with this whole quest based system they removed most of what made the older mmorpg special. The time you spend with other players. Old sandbox games rely on communities while new mmorpgs do not at all. They simply provide m some easy to do crafts and basic fun like instance pvp and the likes to keep m satisfied and busy. They keep m busy together which is basically a false sense of community compared to the older mmorpgs where communities were important to get anywhere in the game. Your friend list mattered coz they made the game fun and enjoyable.
Older mmorpgs might sound oldfashioned coz people simply love to be spoiled but while they did have bad things like grind exactly those bad things would add to a sense of real community which new games do not .
Each has its pro's and cons but like the op says the biggest problem is replayability. Its all fun the first ride. After that its just repeating the old story.Quests based mmorpg's are fun but its definately not a perfect system. They rely more on classes being fun and if those lack diversity people will get bored of the game fast enough if there's also no good end game like pvp.
Great review, but point is missed. Level 23 though, eh, i hope you realize max is like what, 80? you've got a whole nother 60 levels before you could give us a flat out answer of ,
I love these types of comments.
At which level should developers decide to make the game fun? See, if I'm a developer, I would hit folks hard with the fun factor in the beginning to hook them... but folks like yourself seem to feel that you need EARN the right to have fun by leveling up, IF the player happens to stick with it.
Sorry, but that's just unintelligent. *shrugs*
Ummm, yeah. Accually, it would be smarter to create better things at higher levels to give players longer game-time in their game so they make more money. If you give it all in the first few levels, then you have nothing in post-leveling.
i agree with the above. The thing about pure quest based mmorpgs is that once you've reached cap the next alt you make will just accept quests without reading, unless you skipped parts on your main. Like i loved lotro quests and storyline but once you done it the alt ride will be alot less fun. Problem with such games is they leave no real room for creativity from the player. Like in the old games you'd roam around and meet people and decide to group up and hang out together, talk while grinding mobs and add to your friend list. In currend pure quest based games everything goes much faster. You come to a quest point. see more people there. Ask an invite and finish quest. Maybe do 1 or 2 more quests together and then disband and move on. Current quest baded mmorpg dont encourage social activity much like older games did. I mean look at games like lotro. You group up for a quest and hardly anyone speaks. They just finish and move on again. In the older mmorpgs you actually had the time to spend talking and would get to know people. In older games you had the initiative of what to do, not the game steering you. You'd go to whatever zone and find people to group with and do your thing. While in new mmorpgs everyone is going the same direction following the quest lines. There's a big difference. Older sand box types of games had quests too, just not that many. They left alot of room for your own creativity of what to do next. It had grind though and noone really liked grind even though it had its good sides also like social activity and exploration and non linear. The answer to grind were quests. Just i do think since wow all mmorpgs are going overboard with the quests. Simply to many of m ! Leaving no room for creativity from the player, no room to socialize, making it to much of a single player experience instead of a group experience like the old mmorpgs. Alot of mmorpgs which are quest based even totally remove any proper xp from monsters in case you dont feel like questing. They in a sense force you to quest removing pretty much all creativity and initiative. I think its a big shame mmorpgs nowadays have instanced bg's for pvp and are totally quest based only. Dont get me wrong i do enjoy questing also and i do enjoy both soloing and grouping but i also realize that with this whole quest based system they removed most of what made the older mmorpg special. The time you spend with other players. Old sandbox games rely on communities while new mmorpgs do not at all. They simply provide m some easy to do crafts and basic fun like instance pvp and the likes to keep m satisfied and busy. They keep m busy together which is basically a false sense of community compared to the older mmorpgs where communities were important to get anywhere in the game. Your friend list mattered coz they made the game fun and enjoyable. Older mmorpgs might sound oldfashioned coz people simply love to be spoiled but while they did have bad things like grind exactly those bad things would add to a sense of real community which new games do not . Each has its pro's and cons but like the op says the biggest problem is replayability. Its all fun the first ride. After that its just repeating the old story.Quests based mmorpg's are fun but its definately not a perfect system. They rely more on classes being fun and if those lack diversity people will get bored of the game fast enough if there's also no good end game like pvp.
The ultimate problem here, is that we have a critic giving a review about something that he has not fully researched or fully played out. While I appreciate your opinion, it is premature. Why post your thoughts on a game when you have not hit 80 or tried out the end game content? I mean seriously. I could play wow for 1 hour get to 10 and say this game is not only easy its stupid. But most of the fun stuff comes later between 60-70 respectively. And I am a person that is willing to play the game many times over to try out new classes and learn new crafts. The OP basically gave me 1 thing that makes sense, all MMO's become boring after you have played them enough times. Sure maybe for people that dont have active imaginations and only want to play to uh...level 23? Please play the game through and then post your review. Untill then this is not only a bad review, but premature.
EXACTLY, thats the same thing I said.
Nothing against the OP, but he gave a review like he's gotten through the ENTIRE game. I mean sierously, it's not even officially out yet! How can you review something when it's not out! Sorry OP, but next time, please understand fully what you are reviewing before you can say its...
"Like taking an amusement park ride."
Why is it so hard for some people to realize no matter what is beyond the 1-20 it won t be a Oo i can t wait to log in type game for some. I myself didn t care for the core mechanics up to 20 so why would i waste my money going beyond the free month, i just don t like it. I d rather play some offline games until others come out.
I agree with everyone that you need to experience more of the game. I honestly don't think Sandbox MMO's exist. I had my doubts about AoC but it delivered, so far...
I have to see the end game to even attemp to review this game.
When are you going to learn that you don't tell the guys who's been drooling over the release of a "porche", on launch day that the wheels comes unscrewed and that it'll only run on a freeway.
You should have known by now that even if you testdrove it before telling them that they won't be driving anywhere but the freeway, they would still dip you in tar and roll you in feathers, for daring to say anything bad about their brand new toy.
Oh wait... I think I just said their toy wasnt so good too heh...
What I disagree with in your post is that you somehow feel all MMO's aren't sandboxes. What differentiates a game like Age of Conan from something like Star Wars Galaxy (which I played for 4 years) is that Age of Conan has something to do other than mindlessly grind combat, crafting, or faction.
Yes, Star Wars Galaxies was a sandbox. It was amazingly diverse, allowed unlimited character customization, and had more housing/crafting options than any other game to date, BUT it required you to make your own from start to finish. The initial theme parks the game offered would only hold over the average player for a few hours and from there you were limited to an embarassingly small amount of dungeons, or endless amounts of random kill quests.
What ended up making SWG fun were the options you had in PvP, which allowed you to gain planetary control by eliminating player and static bases across the map as well as starting guild wars. The crafting was also amazing complex, allowing people to survive completely on just being harvesters or crafters, making items unique and giving players a reason for return business.
While the crafting in Age of Conan is not as deep as SWG offers, the game still has the same potential with its PvP system as SWG did. Sure, you won't have the titanic battles we occasionally had as a rebel armada stormed an Imperial base, but you're still going to be performing sieges and guild wars to your hearts content.
What I'm saying here is that the difference between an "sand box" MMO and something traditional like Age of Conan, is that the traditional game gives you something to do outside of your own pursuits and imagination. You're not limited to it, its just there for you if you want to pursue it.
Why would you want to play in a world where you constantly have to make your own fun? As much as I loved SWG, it was truly only fun when you were participating in a large event or crafting a sweet new item, otherwise it was just a glorified chat room.
Hopefully this says something to you, as this is coming from someone who still dreams about having the Pre-CU SWG days back someday. Seeing the PvP and city options available in AoC has me more excited than I've been since Vanguard was announced (and which eventually left me disappointed).
I agree with everyone that you need to experience more of the game. I honestly don't think Sandbox MMO's exist. I had my doubts about AoC but it delivered, so far... I have to see the end game to even attemp to review this game.
EVE is sandbox. Fallen Earth and I think Darkfall in development are both sandbox.
And Ive seen the end of this game's content already in LOTR, WoW, and the many other linear MMO's around. It will be players jumping through hoops like raiding and sieges for gear. Been there, done that...
Folks are already asking on the forums if they can skip past the 1-20 tutorial because theyve read the book and dont want to do it again. The ride is already getting boring.
I agree with everyone that you need to experience more of the game. I honestly don't think Sandbox MMO's exist. I had my doubts about AoC but it delivered, so far... I have to see the end game to even attemp to review this game.
EVE is sandbox. Fallen Earth and I think Darkfall in development are both sandbox.
And Ive seen the end of this game's content already in LOTR, WoW, and the many other linear MMO's around. It will be players jumping through hoops like raiding and sieges for gear. Been there, done that...
Folks are already asking on the forums if they can skip past the 1-20 tutorial because theyve read the book and dont want to do it again. The ride is already getting boring.
The same could be said about a "sand box" MMO, except instead of wanting to skip the starter levels, you'd want to skip all experience grinding since there isn't a quest structure to give you motivation.
the main issue I see is getting this new massive influx of MMO gamers educated into knowing that sandbox approach even exists. WoW brought in millions of new MMO gamers who think that WoW is how all MMO's are. All they know is linear quest focused combat style gameplay. How many of your friends (or you) are aware that in some MMO's you can be just a crafter ? Not crafting as a secondary class but solely a crafter ? How about housing ? Are you all aware that in some MMO's you get to place a house (not in some instance either like LOTR) ? How about that some MMO's dont have levels ? How about that in some MMO's items decay or wear out ? These above features are disappearing because all the devs think about now is making more of these flashy amusement park theme MMO's. Its sad that several MMO's 5-10 years ago had 10 times the features today's MMO's have. And players arent saying "hey where is my house" because they dont even know thats something we used to get
1. In any mmorpg you are not forced to level, you can soley be a crafter if you want but why would anybody want to do that? Yay lets play a game where all we do is make things!
2. Houses appearing in the world is a nice feature but an uneccessary one that causes a lot of problems. The only reason it was okay in SWG was because that game had tons of empty areas with no monsters and just a barren nothingness.
3. Although having no levels would be a good idea, it would eventually feel purposeless if you have been playing an mmo for a few years and your character doesn't really advance compared to noobs besides gear.
4. Whats wrong with Decay/Wear out system. Every mmorpg needs a consequence system or else death would be meaningless. Its a lot better and not as harsh as exp loss. It also adds somewhat of a small immersion in the game.
Nostalgia is a confusing thing. Peoples minds tend to only remeber the good things when they feel nostalgia and ignore all the bad aspects of what they are feeling the nostalgia towards. Games like WoW/EQ2 are far from being linear. For example you can do 25 man raid content, 10 man raid content, arenas, battlegrounds, daily quest, faction quests, crafting if you want and etc..
And by the way every single mmorpg or game in general eventually gets repetitive after playing it multiple times. Nothing lasts forever.
Comments
I hate to turn this thread into a WoW fanboy vs basher fest, but as someone who's been playing WoW since nearly a year before Burning Crusade to present...
That last post makes me laugh. You've obviously never played UO or the old EQ. You could fight anyone or anything. You're a noble knight of good? If you want, you can work at turning totally evil and go chill out with the dark elves in their city. A Dark Elf could strive to overcome his heritage and fight alongside good. All races and alignments could play and group and form guilds together.
In UO you never had to fight anything ever. you could make chars who did nothing but craft. Or design houses for people. Or just rob those same houses. It was like GTA online, only with crappy graphics.
Don't get me wrong WoW has diversified a lot, but it's nowhere near a sandbox. And again, not a bad thing. To each their own.
Fallen Earth is sandbox. It doesnt have levels and classes, yes there are MMO's that dont force you to choose a tank, healer, or dps class.
Imagine being able to choose any skill you want, dabble in many things or specialize in one or two. This is the beauty of sandbox MMO's, you arent forced to play one limiting role.
Its been in development for about 3.5 years now so its closing in on release (sometime in Q1 2009 possibly) but there is no official release date yet
I never said Age of Conan was a bad game
I never said I thought Age of Conan mislead me into believing it was going to be sandbox.
My point is AoC is like all linear games, fun for a while but then the story ends. Players like me want something more.
I also made this post because Ive noticed there are a surprisingly large amount of players who have no concept of anything other than wowish MMO's. Millions of players only know WoW and possibly LOTR and AoC now. Its foreign to them that MMO's can have no levels or classes.
Fallen Earth is sandbox. It doesnt have levels and classes, yes there are MMO's that dont force you to choose a tank, healer, or dps class.
Imagine being able to choose any skill you want, dabble in many things or specialize in one or two. This is the beauty of sandbox MMO's, you arent forced to play one limiting role.
Its been in development for about 3.5 years now so its closing in on release (sometime in Q1 2009 possibly) but there is no official release date yet
You know what happens in these MMOs with that skill system?... A few choice skill templates are used by 99% of the players... limiting them to a chosen role.
"You know what happens in these MMOs with that skill system?... A few choice skill templates are used by 99% of the players... limiting them to a chosen role."
Yeah but atleast they have their choice to do that weither they chose "tank" or "Healer"
Look the OP said like 5 times that AoC isn't a bad game, he just doesn't like the way it is because he prefers the ability to chose his own character traits instead of them being handed to him and set in stone. I know a decent sandbox MMO before SoE ruined it. The Matrix Online
The Matrix Online had the plus to change up abilities on the fly, all you needed was the ability and a hardline. And there was no class set in concrete or anything, that way anyone can play any character class with any skill that they wanted, and all they needed was the level requirements and the skill itself from a local vendor. Not to mention the live events. What happened in the live events and what people did made the writers change the story line based on what happened. They didn't write out the entire story before the game was released, they update it every 2 weeks or so with a different chapter based on what happens on the servers. That my friends, is sandbox.
I haven't played AoC yet and I hope to get a buddy key sometime soon (Still haven't gotten one, EMAIL ME!
) but from everything I read it seems like the modern story driven MMO. Which doesn't sound like a bad thing. WoW is a story driven MMO, and is based on the writers, not the players.
Not to mention that I found WoW boring after a month or two. Level 37 mage and a 33 Rogue for those who are going to bash me on not being at level 70.
OP has a point, and I think his review is valid. He said it was a good game. Just not his style. Explained why not his style, and defended his opinion. Read it, take it for what it is, and move on. You really want to see if you'll like the game, play it for yourself.
Last I checked Fallen Earth was about as close to release as Darkfall and the Duke.
That statistic is completely unfounded and untrue. Yes, there will be "Flavor of the Month (FotM)" templates. And they will be used by many players, those who like to "Min/Max". But 99%? No, sorry. FotM are present across all genres, even in WoW, for example... when The Burning Crusade released, the FotM was a Blood Elf Hunter. They were everywhere. But they did not then or now comprise 99% of the player population.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
That statistic is completely unfounded and untrue. Yes, there will be "Flavor of the Month (FotM)" templates. And they will be used by many players, those who like to "Min/Max". But 99%? No, sorry. FotM are present across all genres, even in WoW, for example... when The Burning Crusade released, the FotM was a Blood Elf Hunter. They were everywhere. But they did not then or now comprise 99% of the player population.
Ok, you're saying I'm wrong... so how about a link to what they actually are?
Fallen Earth is sandbox. It doesnt have levels and classes, yes there are MMO's that dont force you to choose a tank, healer, or dps class.
Imagine being able to choose any skill you want, dabble in many things or specialize in one or two. This is the beauty of sandbox MMO's, you arent forced to play one limiting role.
Its been in development for about 3.5 years now so its closing in on release (sometime in Q1 2009 possibly) but there is no official release date yet
You know what happens in these MMOs with that skill system?... A few choice skill templates are used by 99% of the players... limiting them to a chosen role.
this is sorta true, for the pvpers anyway. They find the best template for pvp and soon everyone copies em. Thats really no different though than class based games with their talent system.
I like the freedom to choose any skills which benefit me the most in a sandbox. And that doesnt mean I'll be the best at something either.
In Star Wars Galaxies for example, I went ranger for the roleplay aspect (those tent/camps were so dam cool). I also went teras kasi master so I could pretty much solo most mobs. I took up novice entertainer so I could hang out in the cantinas and mess around. I wasnt defined as a tank, a hunter / dps class, a rogue, nothing. I had a little bit of everything I wanted in my toon.
Its silly that I cant pick up a two hand sword and use it because the developer of that game says "mages cant use two hand swords"
Its ridiculous that if I want to try a new ability I must start an entirely new character.
Again, Im not saying AoC is a bad game. Im having a blast playing. But I want more
the main issue I see is getting this new massive influx of MMO gamers educated into knowing that sandbox approach even exists. WoW brought in millions of new MMO gamers who think that WoW is how all MMO's are. All they know is linear quest focused combat style gameplay.
How many of your friends (or you) are aware that in some MMO's you can be just a crafter ? Not crafting as a secondary class but solely a crafter ?
How about housing ? Are you all aware that in some MMO's you get to place a house (not in some instance either like LOTR) ?
How about that some MMO's dont have levels ?
How about that in some MMO's items decay or wear out ?
These above features are disappearing because all the devs think about now is making more of these flashy amusement park theme MMO's. Its sad that several MMO's 5-10 years ago had 10 times the features today's MMO's have. And players arent saying "hey where is my house" because they dont even know thats something we used to get
let me chime in on this topic for a bit. The OP is expressing his opinion, nothing more. My own opinion about AOC is that, when i think of Hyboria, Conan and the whole vibe, i don't think about running quest after quest to lvl up and become stuck in a certain class.
I can see the forums a few months from now with people bitching and moaning that their class is not needed for raids and needs to be fixed to make them have more utitlity in a group situation. Sounds familar doesn't it.
I envisioned a Hyboria that was wide open, and dangerous. Where i could be a bararian and also a skill assassin/thief. Where certain places like Stygia was dangerous and brutal because it was, not because it's where a dev decided that's were lvl 60 to 80 made it that way.
The sandbox game design gives people that type of option. It let's a player become part of the game world, not put's a player on a some type of crazy mission to hit lvl cap as fast as they can and have to raid/pvp for the most uber gear to compete.
I'm not saying that there's no place for a linear based mmo, lord knows that WOW has done it better than all of them. But honestly when you get to AOC, beside the graphics, you basically are playing WOW with a new skin, and minor differances.
I guess that's what dissapoints me the most. I have much broader defintion of the Conan world than what FC has.
The critics of the OP are laughable. The OP stated its a well made linear game. By the nature of a linear game the content runs stale much faster than that of a sandbox game.
He doesn't need to reach level 80 to make such an assessment. The game is not going to suddenly morph into a sandbox game.
The end game of any MMO consists of personal fine tuning your avatar. The way you can do this is the degree of different choices and ways to accomplish this by making up you own personal sandbox.
That's why I stated personal sandboxes. Games that don't offer many choices in advancing the characters are indeed dead meat MMORPG's. I think LOTRO was about the last one launched that way.
But I doubt even Conan won't have this degree of fine tuning on a personal sandbox base. Because Wow indeed adopted its end game choices dramatically.
I do know what MMORPG's are and by my age I think I played Dungeons and Dragons even before your were born, But like I said, I smiled when I read the comments.
wow has classes and levels. thats about as opposite from sandbox as you can get. WoW type games will have you move along via quests to area lvl 1-5, then your off to area lvl 6-10. Then when those are done, its off to the next area lvl 11-17...maybe toss in a dungeon for that same lvl. Then again its time to move to the next area of entertainment for lvls 18-24. When thats done, head to the next area...etc etc. Sandbox games dont do this linear approach. Its boring, simplistic, and limiting.
I do understand your point that there is some freedom to tweak and improve your avatar in the endgame of wow and other linear games.
The point though is your still stuck as a tank. Yes you can test out a new talent or work to get a better shield. But in the end, you will always be a tank. And in the case of most of today's MMO's, a tank without a house and many other freedoms that sandbox gives you
well said, thank you.
i agree with the above. The thing about pure quest based mmorpgs is that once you've reached cap the next alt you make will just accept quests without reading, unless you skipped parts on your main.
Like i loved lotro quests and storyline but once you done it the alt ride will be alot less fun.
Problem with such games is they leave no real room for creativity from the player. Like in the old games you'd roam around and meet people and decide to group up and hang out together, talk while grinding mobs and add to your friend list.
In currend pure quest based games everything goes much faster. You come to a quest point. see more people there. Ask an invite and finish quest. Maybe do 1 or 2 more quests together and then disband and move on.
Current quest baded mmorpg dont encourage social activity much like older games did.
I mean look at games like lotro. You group up for a quest and hardly anyone speaks. They just finish and move on again. In the older mmorpgs you actually had the time to spend talking and would get to know people.
In older games you had the initiative of what to do, not the game steering you. You'd go to whatever zone and find people to group with and do your thing. While in new mmorpgs everyone is going the same direction following the quest lines. There's a big difference.
Older sand box types of games had quests too, just not that many. They left alot of room for your own creativity of what to do next. It had grind though and noone really liked grind even though it had its good sides also like social activity and exploration and non linear. The answer to grind were quests. Just i do think since wow all mmorpgs are going overboard with the quests. Simply to many of m !
Leaving no room for creativity from the player, no room to socialize, making it to much of a single player experience instead of a group experience like the old mmorpgs. Alot of mmorpgs which are quest based even totally remove any proper xp from monsters in case you dont feel like questing. They in a sense force you to quest removing pretty much all creativity and initiative.
I think its a big shame mmorpgs nowadays have instanced bg's for pvp and are totally quest based only.
Dont get me wrong i do enjoy questing also and i do enjoy both soloing and grouping but i also realize that with this whole quest based system they removed most of what made the older mmorpg special. The time you spend with other players. Old sandbox games rely on communities while new mmorpgs do not at all. They simply provide m some easy to do crafts and basic fun like instance pvp and the likes to keep m satisfied and busy. They keep m busy together which is basically a false sense of community compared to the older mmorpgs where communities were important to get anywhere in the game. Your friend list mattered coz they made the game fun and enjoyable.
Older mmorpgs might sound oldfashioned coz people simply love to be spoiled but while they did have bad things like grind exactly those bad things would add to a sense of real community which new games do not .
Each has its pro's and cons but like the op says the biggest problem is replayability. Its all fun the first ride. After that its just repeating the old story.Quests based mmorpg's are fun but its definately not a perfect system. They rely more on classes being fun and if those lack diversity people will get bored of the game fast enough if there's also no good end game like pvp.
I love these types of comments.
At which level should developers decide to make the game fun? See, if I'm a developer, I would hit folks hard with the fun factor in the beginning to hook them... but folks like yourself seem to feel that you need EARN the right to have fun by leveling up, IF the player happens to stick with it.
Sorry, but that's just unintelligent. *shrugs*
Ummm, yeah. Accually, it would be smarter to create better things at higher levels to give players longer game-time in their game so they make more money. If you give it all in the first few levels, then you have nothing in post-leveling.
well said, thank you
Nothing against the OP, but he gave a review like he's gotten through the ENTIRE game. I mean sierously, it's not even officially out yet! How can you review something when it's not out! Sorry OP, but next time, please understand fully what you are reviewing before you can say its...
"Like taking an amusement park ride."
Why is it so hard for some people to realize no matter what is beyond the 1-20 it won t be a Oo i can t wait to log in type game for some. I myself didn t care for the core mechanics up to 20 so why would i waste my money going beyond the free month, i just don t like it. I d rather play some offline games until others come out.
I agree with everyone that you need to experience more of the game. I honestly don't think Sandbox MMO's exist. I had my doubts about AoC but it delivered, so far...
I have to see the end game to even attemp to review this game.
Fight Me! http://zunarn.mybrute.com
Adam adam adam...
When are you going to learn that you don't tell the guys who's been drooling over the release of a "porche", on launch day that the wheels comes unscrewed and that it'll only run on a freeway.
You should have known by now that even if you testdrove it before telling them that they won't be driving anywhere but the freeway, they would still dip you in tar and roll you in feathers, for daring to say anything bad about their brand new toy.
Oh wait... I think I just said their toy wasnt so good too heh...
*runs away*
What I disagree with in your post is that you somehow feel all MMO's aren't sandboxes. What differentiates a game like Age of Conan from something like Star Wars Galaxy (which I played for 4 years) is that Age of Conan has something to do other than mindlessly grind combat, crafting, or faction.
Yes, Star Wars Galaxies was a sandbox. It was amazingly diverse, allowed unlimited character customization, and had more housing/crafting options than any other game to date, BUT it required you to make your own from start to finish. The initial theme parks the game offered would only hold over the average player for a few hours and from there you were limited to an embarassingly small amount of dungeons, or endless amounts of random kill quests.
What ended up making SWG fun were the options you had in PvP, which allowed you to gain planetary control by eliminating player and static bases across the map as well as starting guild wars. The crafting was also amazing complex, allowing people to survive completely on just being harvesters or crafters, making items unique and giving players a reason for return business.
While the crafting in Age of Conan is not as deep as SWG offers, the game still has the same potential with its PvP system as SWG did. Sure, you won't have the titanic battles we occasionally had as a rebel armada stormed an Imperial base, but you're still going to be performing sieges and guild wars to your hearts content.
What I'm saying here is that the difference between an "sand box" MMO and something traditional like Age of Conan, is that the traditional game gives you something to do outside of your own pursuits and imagination. You're not limited to it, its just there for you if you want to pursue it.
Why would you want to play in a world where you constantly have to make your own fun? As much as I loved SWG, it was truly only fun when you were participating in a large event or crafting a sweet new item, otherwise it was just a glorified chat room.
Hopefully this says something to you, as this is coming from someone who still dreams about having the Pre-CU SWG days back someday. Seeing the PvP and city options available in AoC has me more excited than I've been since Vanguard was announced (and which eventually left me disappointed).
EVE is sandbox. Fallen Earth and I think Darkfall in development are both sandbox.
And Ive seen the end of this game's content already in LOTR, WoW, and the many other linear MMO's around. It will be players jumping through hoops like raiding and sieges for gear. Been there, done that...
Folks are already asking on the forums if they can skip past the 1-20 tutorial because theyve read the book and dont want to do it again. The ride is already getting boring.
EVE is sandbox. Fallen Earth and I think Darkfall in development are both sandbox.
And Ive seen the end of this game's content already in LOTR, WoW, and the many other linear MMO's around. It will be players jumping through hoops like raiding and sieges for gear. Been there, done that...
Folks are already asking on the forums if they can skip past the 1-20 tutorial because theyve read the book and dont want to do it again. The ride is already getting boring.
The same could be said about a "sand box" MMO, except instead of wanting to skip the starter levels, you'd want to skip all experience grinding since there isn't a quest structure to give you motivation.
1. In any mmorpg you are not forced to level, you can soley be a crafter if you want but why would anybody want to do that? Yay lets play a game where all we do is make things!
2. Houses appearing in the world is a nice feature but an uneccessary one that causes a lot of problems. The only reason it was okay in SWG was because that game had tons of empty areas with no monsters and just a barren nothingness.
3. Although having no levels would be a good idea, it would eventually feel purposeless if you have been playing an mmo for a few years and your character doesn't really advance compared to noobs besides gear.
4. Whats wrong with Decay/Wear out system. Every mmorpg needs a consequence system or else death would be meaningless. Its a lot better and not as harsh as exp loss. It also adds somewhat of a small immersion in the game.
Nostalgia is a confusing thing. Peoples minds tend to only remeber the good things when they feel nostalgia and ignore all the bad aspects of what they are feeling the nostalgia towards. Games like WoW/EQ2 are far from being linear. For example you can do 25 man raid content, 10 man raid content, arenas, battlegrounds, daily quest, faction quests, crafting if you want and etc..
And by the way every single mmorpg or game in general eventually gets repetitive after playing it multiple times. Nothing lasts forever.
You just gave us your review of the tutorial... lol Now go play the real game...