i agree with the above. The thing about pure quest based mmorpgs is that once you've reached cap the next alt you make will just accept quests without reading, unless you skipped parts on your main. Like i loved lotro quests and storyline but once you done it the alt ride will be alot less fun. Problem with such games is they leave no real room for creativity from the player. Like in the old games you'd roam around and meet people and decide to group up and hang out together, talk while grinding mobs and add to your friend list. In currend pure quest based games everything goes much faster. You come to a quest point. see more people there. Ask an invite and finish quest. Maybe do 1 or 2 more quests together and then disband and move on. Current quest baded mmorpg dont encourage social activity much like older games did. I mean look at games like lotro. You group up for a quest and hardly anyone speaks. They just finish and move on again. In the older mmorpgs you actually had the time to spend talking and would get to know people. In older games you had the initiative of what to do, not the game steering you. You'd go to whatever zone and find people to group with and do your thing. While in new mmorpgs everyone is going the same direction following the quest lines. There's a big difference. Older sand box types of games had quests too, just not that many. They left alot of room for your own creativity of what to do next. It had grind though and noone really liked grind even though it had its good sides also like social activity and exploration and non linear. The answer to grind were quests. Just i do think since wow all mmorpgs are going overboard with the quests. Simply to many of m ! Leaving no room for creativity from the player, no room to socialize, making it to much of a single player experience instead of a group experience like the old mmorpgs. Alot of mmorpgs which are quest based even totally remove any proper xp from monsters in case you dont feel like questing. They in a sense force you to quest removing pretty much all creativity and initiative. I think its a big shame mmorpgs nowadays have instanced bg's for pvp and are totally quest based only. Dont get me wrong i do enjoy questing also and i do enjoy both soloing and grouping but i also realize that with this whole quest based system they removed most of what made the older mmorpg special. The time you spend with other players. Old sandbox games rely on communities while new mmorpgs do not at all. They simply provide m some easy to do crafts and basic fun like instance pvp and the likes to keep m satisfied and busy. They keep m busy together which is basically a false sense of community compared to the older mmorpgs where communities were important to get anywhere in the game. Your friend list mattered coz they made the game fun and enjoyable. Older mmorpgs might sound oldfashioned coz people simply love to be spoiled but while they did have bad things like grind exactly those bad things would add to a sense of real community which new games do not . Each has its pro's and cons but like the op says the biggest problem is replayability. Its all fun the first ride. After that its just repeating the old story.Quests based mmorpg's are fun but its definately not a perfect system. They rely more on classes being fun and if those lack diversity people will get bored of the game fast enough if there's also no good end game like pvp.
I'll have to disagree with your claims that Theme parks MMO's lack a proper social side. I was an EQ2 player from launch right up until the second last expansion. That game is your typical Theme park MMO. The guild community there were very active socially. I had just as much social interaction in EQ2 as I had playing Uo from 1997 until 2002. I left both for the same reason. It was time for something different. There is a big social side to Theme Parks MMO's. The communities within a theme park MMO are there if you choose to get involved. Solo yet another alt through a theme park MMO can grind you down, I agree, but doing it with a community you joined within the game makes getting alts up to scratch a breeze.
A game is what you make it. I know people that hated questing in Vanguard and they instead grinded out their levels hunting mobs. They burned out. I kow people that grinded out skills in SWG and got burned out. I know people that grinded out levels in many different MMORPG's just by hunting MOBS. You can choose to do this in AoC...it will no don't be slower that way...but I suppose it could be done. Quest are cool because it allows you to participate in a story. Sorta like reading a book and following the adventures of the main characters....but in an MMORPG...your character is the character.
Also...when I say you make a game what it is...by using your imagination. AoC is a great place for me to just let my imagination play in. Just as Vangaurd was and SWG, and AC2, and AC, and every other MMORPG I have ever played. I made the game fit my play style. All these games allow the player some form of freedom and AoC is no different.
I started my online gaming experience in freeform roleplaying MUDS and all we had was our imagination our words and the ability to roll dice. I remember long discussions in gaming forums on BBS about creating online 3d virtual worlds and how someday they'd be a reality and it wasn't a few years later we were playing EQ.
All these games are linear to some extent because the games world are generally pretty small and you're confined to it. Only three games I know of with extremely large worlds to explore were AC, SWG and Vanguard. Vanguard is massive. I have been playing that game since launch and still have only seen maybe 3/5's of it. I only recently canceled my subscription to VG. Someday I may resubcribe if SOE ever finishes it and polishes it. Although you could travel anywhere you wished in VG...in reality you had to take certain paths because that is how the MOBS are layed out....just as they are in most MMORPG's.
These games are only as good as the tools provided to the player to make the game fun. A game like Planetside was simple in form, but playing it with a good group of people and the fact that the game provided most everything we players needed to make our own fun. Eventually you learned the names of individual players, not only on your side, but the opposing teams side as well. Competition becomes the game then. AoC offers a unique end game. Sorta like Planetside. I find AoC very fun in that respect and am all ready getting into the PvP drama of the server I have chosen. Making lots of friends...and enemies...all in the name of gaming fun!
Funcom has given us a fun game with the tools to make the game more than what it is. If you don't know what to do with those tools...then all you need to do is learn. Your imagination will play a huge part in this.
Funcom has given us a fun game with the tools to make the game more than what it is. If you don't know what to do with those tools...then all you need to do is learn. Your imagination will play a huge part in this.
I agree. Just imagination without tools/mechnaics doesnt do the job in the long run. I posted it weeks a go. I do belief that AoC will be bigtime fun for me, but not more then maybe 6 months. I do love story telling mmos (i do enjoy the auto-attack thing in storytelling games tho ) According to the Stone interview at uberguild it will be 6 days (~ 144h) to level 80. This is 6 weeks storytelling gameplay for me personally. And then ? PvP in any form isnt an option. PvP is not content, the roots of PvP are an extension of roleplay. Yeah, really. Raiding ? Nah... thanks. I am oldschool EQ2'er. A raid should be the cherry on top of a quest. Tier based raids like vanguard, EQ2 (tier 8) and now in AoC are.... BS.
You have been the vanguardian priestess of detail and small things. In WoW the fact that i have to take a break and fish for 10 minutes to feed my cat (and increase its DPS) is the stuff the OP was talking about.
The "2nd comming" should get rid of levels and replace it with a deeper system of mob cons. Deserted noob zones are a pain for a virtual living and breathing world. The pradigm of "endgame" has to vanish. Its the biggest roadblocker on the road of mmo evolution. A "mature" game should alos have "mature" gameplay. Like managing logistics in a world of decay. If you want to have an adventure in AoC and vistic the stygian jungleit should be similar to a real life expedition to the basilian jungle. Do you have the money ?, the equipment ?, the skill ?
However, i do not see any 3rd or 4th gen sandbox out there. The genre is probably dead. Such a game would bind people in the long term and those players wont buy any other game. We have a proverb over here.. "A crow doesnt pick the eye of another crow".
Lets enjoy the hyperborean journey as long as it lasts !
I see no freedom in AoC. All i see are hundreds and hundreds of mind-numbing quests that Im forced to do.
I know this might be hard to understand if your the type that wants to be entertained, but I dont want quests forced down my throat. I want to do my own thing.
I gotta laugh at the posts here stating that AoC and games like WoW have freedom in them. You people are slaves and dont even know it because you havent experienced true freedom yet.
Its like saying a prisoner has freedom because he gets to choose between playing checkers or chess.
but I dont want quests forced down my throat. I want to do my own thing.
So why don't you just go on your way ? You can go to all of the areas you want and kill the mobe you want. At level 20 you can start harvesting (though you need to sneak through to get to the harvesting places at that level), then at level 40 you can craft. While doing all of this you can trade your drops and later on your crafted goods to make money. You can join a guild, build a city. And all of this is even better on a pvp server as you can level while pvping, etc...
And while doing this you can always take a break with the destiny quests. First you get to lvl 20 then there is nothing (destiny quest) until lvl 30 and so on have plenty of time to enjoy yourself as you want.
I finally got in last night to play Age of Conan. It reminds me of every single MMO Ive played recently. Lots and lots of quests (too many to be honest), interesting storyline, fun combat, great soundtrack, and beautiful graphics. Having said that, AoC is just another amusement park carnival with fixed rides. Its amazing the 1st time you try the rides. Its a blast the second time. The 3rd time, meh its okay. By the 5th time your throwing up that cotton candy and hot dog you bought from that seedy looking carny. This will nearly always be the case with this type of MMO. Linear focus with a high concentration of quests means the game is basically a book or a movie. Its purpose unlike sandbox MMO's is to provide the entertainment, to tell a story. In essence, its an attractive ride with pretty colors. Like all RPG MMO of this genre, that story can only be read a few times. After a while, it gets really really old. You'll notice that there are already several threads asking if the newbie area has to be repeated with alts ! There are plenty of great rpg out there but people arent playing them again and again and again. So why would a developer think making an MMO of this type would be a good idea ? Especially considering that MMO's are supposed to have long-term appeal ? This leads to another problem, keeping up. Since the latest MMORPG's are amusement park rides, the developers are always working on the latest ride. If they take too long getting new rides into the park, players will move on to the next playground. And when a new ride is added, the players will feast on it like its a last meal and quickly ask whats next. In the end the ride cant ever hope to keep up with player's demands. To make an analogy... Linear MMO's are like this, giving the player a fish to eat. You have to constantly give him fish or he will go elsewhere begging for more fish. See WoW, LOTR, Age of Conan, and several other similiar MMO's Sandbox MMO's give the player a fishing pole, the bait, maybe a soda to cool off, and an instructor to show how to fish. After that, the player is on his own but he has the necessary tools / skills to get all the fish he needs. I like Age of Conan. Its pretty to look at. The combat is fun. But its not going to be my home for the next several years.
all this knowledge from only one game of playing, your insights must be good or mine must be bad
one week of beta and i found the game to be delicious
maybe with enough time ill be able to see as you do
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
I see no freedom in AoC. All i see are hundreds and hundreds of mind-numbing quests that Im forced to do. I know this might be hard to understand if your the type that wants to be entertained, but I dont want quests forced down my throat. I want to do my own thing. I gotta laugh at the posts here stating that AoC and games like WoW have freedom in them. You people are slaves and dont even know it because you havent experienced true freedom yet. Its like saying a prisoner has freedom because he gets to choose between playing checkers or chess.
I'll see you on EVE then, and one of the SWG emulators (in 5 years).
Oh, to all those that are calling sandbox games a grindfest - WoW takes....anywhere from 6 to 15+ days for people to grind to 70. 6-8 days assuming you did nothing but quest and grind your way to each new location. Anything over 10 and you probably enjoyed yourself a little more and PvPed and instanced some to make it more fun. SWG on the other hand, I could "grind" an entire profession (Swordsman) in 8 hours. Another, harder to grind profession might've taken me the better part of a week or two (probably still coming out under 3 or 4 days playing time). I was doing endgame content within a few weeks with a complete template and a nice suit of armor that I bought - didn't raid with 24 other people for 9 months to get. At full temp, I was 90% of my way to where the veteran's were at. 90% meaning if you were good and a bit lucky, you could kill some of them (the last 10% was in armor & weapon enhancements and CAs & AAs). People who say that sandbox games are hard to get into are wrong. Sandbox games are VERY hard to get past the first few days. Once you do that, you can pretty much buy your way (if you have a friend) or earn enough quickly to almost compete with veterans. In WoW, you get to 70 and either spend 3 months grinding BGs and arenas to start to look like everyone else or you raid for months to get gear that can't even be effectively used for casual PvP.
So, if reading a quest makes you find the grind you're doing less boring, have fun in WoW and AoC. But I'm sorry to say, most of the quests in all games involve killing something and the time you spend running back to turn the quest in, you were most likely better off just staying there to kill some more. Argue this all you want, but read some articles on people grinding to 60 in 5 days on WoW, they skipped a lot of quests. The reason you can't seem to skip quests or the reason you think quests are faster than grinding, is because you have fallen for the dev's trick. You not only think you are getting more xp for doing the quests but you think it is faster, when really you're just working your brain a little bit more.
For those of you that enjoy the storyline in AoC, please disregard. The above was targetted toward those people who have played through a game several times and still don't understand.
So, if reading a quest makes you find the grind you're doing less boring, have fun in WoW and AoC. But I'm sorry to say, most of the quests in all games involve killing something and the time you spend running back to turn the quest in, you were most likely better off just staying there to kill some more.
Some people don't just play to kill mobs and grind levels to the top. Many actually play the game to get immersed in a world and its stories. If you are just playing to grind levels and kill mobs, then you're not playing the same game.
AoC is linear 1-20 but 20-80? No-one really knows yet.
Linear games suffer unless they introduce fresh free content on a regular basis, Lotro is a good example of how to do this well with free new content every month. AoC will either have to do the same or have awesome pvp which in itself keeps players coming back.
A game with good open-field style pvp is effectively non-linear from this point onwards as the players make their own fun to a certian extent bashing each others keeps in.
Try the pvp at high level, then comment about how linear the game is.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
So, if reading a quest makes you find the grind you're doing less boring, have fun in WoW and AoC. But I'm sorry to say, most of the quests in all games involve killing something and the time you spend running back to turn the quest in, you were most likely better off just staying there to kill some more.
Some people don't just play to kill mobs and grind levels to the top. Many actually play the game to get immersed in a world and its stories. If you are just playing to grind levels and kill mobs, then you're not playing the same game.
Next time please read through my entire post before making a comment. If you'd have read the last line, you'd have seen that my comments were directed toward those people that have played through the same story many times and those that play the game simply to see end-game. My point was - in sandbox MMOs you can see end-game quicker if you're one of those that doesn't want to full around with newbie stuff. My second point, playing through WoW and AoC 5 times will get boring with the same story. In sandbox MMOs, you don't even have to create another character to change YOUR story, but even if you do - you can't possibly take the same route like you are forced to do in WoW.
Just wanted to say I agree with pretty much everything your saying admriker and everyone else who’s expressed similar views.
But I no longer have the inclination to join the debate anymore due to apathy with the majority of the MMO industry who keeps producing these types of games and the ever increasing number of people who keep playing them who appear to be blissfully unaware or willfully ignorant of how restraining they are and how far short they fall of the true potential and freedom offered by this genre.
Trying to explain to them so they can understand is like trying to explain to a flatlander what the 3rd dimension is like.
Depressingly I personally think its just reflects the broader effect of everything increasingly being designed or modified so that is can be marketed and appealing to the lowest common denominator.
Just wanted to say I agree with pretty much everything your saying admriker and everyone else who’s expressed similar views. But I no longer have the inclination to join the debate anymore due to apathy with the majority of the MMO industry who keeps producing these types of games and the ever increasing number of people who keep playing them who appear to be blissfully unaware or willfully ignorant of how restraining they are and how far short they fall of the true potential and freedom offered by this genre. Trying to explain to them so they can understand is like trying to explain to a flatlander what the 3rd dimension is like. Depressingly I personally think its just reflects the broader effect of everything increasingly being designed or modified so that is can be marketed and appealing to the lowest common denominator.
I agree
There are millions of new MMO gamers to this arena thanks to World of Warcraft. They judge every future MMO by how WoW played. They have no idea that sandbox MMO's used to be the norm (and should be again). In their mind, MMO's began with WoW.
In 3 months we'll see dozens of posts complaining that there is nothing to do now. Thats because they did all the rides in the Conan Amusement Park.
Ive cancelled my account already. I made it to lvl 33, I dont need to see anymore. The linear path is clear...repeat quests over and over until I reach 80. I can then start all over again or pvp, no thanks.
I see no freedom in AoC. All i see are hundreds and hundreds of mind-numbing quests that Im forced to do. I know this might be hard to understand if your the type that wants to be entertained, but I dont want quests forced down my throat. I want to do my own thing. I gotta laugh at the posts here stating that AoC and games like WoW have freedom in them. You people are slaves and dont even know it because you havent experienced true freedom yet. Its like saying a prisoner has freedom because he gets to choose between playing checkers or chess.
You take video games way to seriously. I think you are beginning to forget they are pixels on a screen that offer enjoyment and kill time. I don't think because you play AoC or WoW you have never experienced true freedom.
I see no freedom in AoC. All i see are hundreds and hundreds of mind-numbing quests that Im forced to do. I know this might be hard to understand if your the type that wants to be entertained, but I dont want quests forced down my throat. I want to do my own thing. I gotta laugh at the posts here stating that AoC and games like WoW have freedom in them. You people are slaves and dont even know it because you havent experienced true freedom yet. Its like saying a prisoner has freedom because he gets to choose between playing checkers or chess.
If you feel like a slave to a game, then you need to logout and quit it. Just because you don't like a game style doesn't mean many others feel the same way. Go play Eve or whatever game fits your playstyle. Sitting here and whining about the failure of sandbox games does nothing but make you sound like a baby. Insulting people who happen to like quest-based games just makes you look like a tool.
Just wanted to say I agree with pretty much everything your saying admriker and everyone else who’s expressed similar views. But I no longer have the inclination to join the debate anymore due to apathy with the majority of the MMO industry who keeps producing these types of games and the ever increasing number of people who keep playing them who appear to be blissfully unaware or willfully ignorant of how restraining they are and how far short they fall of the true potential and freedom offered by this genre. Trying to explain to them so they can understand is like trying to explain to a flatlander what the 3rd dimension is like. Depressingly I personally think its just reflects the broader effect of everything increasingly being designed or modified so that is can be marketed and appealing to the lowest common denominator.
I agree
There are millions of new MMO gamers to this arena thanks to World of Warcraft. They judge every future MMO by how WoW played. They have no idea that sandbox MMO's used to be the norm (and should be again). In their mind, MMO's began with WoW.
In 3 months we'll see dozens of posts complaining that there is nothing to do now. Thats because they did all the rides in the Conan Amusement Park.
Ive cancelled my account already. I made it to lvl 33, I dont need to see anymore. The linear path is clear...repeat quests over and over until I reach 80. I can then start all over again or pvp, no thanks.
There are better options, see you in EVE
I agree with you. I don't know why dev's have been on this four-year kick of designing linear games that force or compel a specific path, when all many players want is a giant sandbox world to explore.
There is nothing, nothing, nothing more irritating than a simple, but forced linear in-game tutorial. Tutorials suck. Basically, Funcom spent lots of cash designing a feature that sucks into their game; they unknowingly spent money to drive off players. Some players, anyway.
I'm tempted to cancel on Day 1; but am a little angry about giving Funcom my $50.
I have said this before, but I think our best gaming years are behind us.
I see no freedom in AoC. All i see are hundreds and hundreds of mind-numbing quests that Im forced to do. I know this might be hard to understand if your the type that wants to be entertained, but I dont want quests forced down my throat. I want to do my own thing. I gotta laugh at the posts here stating that AoC and games like WoW have freedom in them. You people are slaves and dont even know it because you havent experienced true freedom yet. Its like saying a prisoner has freedom because he gets to choose between playing checkers or chess.
You take video games way to seriously. I think you are beginning to forget they are pixels on a screen that offer enjoyment and kill time. I don't think because you play AoC or WoW you have never experienced true freedom.
Actually, Admierkr is right. And, it may be you don't take the games seriously enough.
It's not just a matter of either you enjoy a game or not; there is a third state of gaming: immersion. That magical feeling when you see a world through your character's eyes and feel you are almost "in" the game is wondrous.
Again, I just don't get it. Funcom has said from day one this would be a quest-driven game. Yet all these people got it, tried it, then write whiny bad reviews because it wasn't sandbox.
So uh...why did you get it in the first place? Like, I'm cool if it's not everyone's cup of tea. I tend to think that some of the worse "pro-sandbox" detractors of the game are perhaps underestimating what you CAN do in the game by focusing on what you CAN'T do, but /shrug to that.
Again, I just don't get why someone buys an orange when they want an apple and, knowing it's an orange before they buy, proceeds to complain it's not an apple. I'm interested in seeing some apples on the market too, but belittling oranges isn't going to help that.
I see no freedom in AoC. All i see are hundreds and hundreds of mind-numbing quests that Im forced to do. I know this might be hard to understand if your the type that wants to be entertained, but I dont want quests forced down my throat. I want to do my own thing. I gotta laugh at the posts here stating that AoC and games like WoW have freedom in them. You people are slaves and dont even know it because you havent experienced true freedom yet. Its like saying a prisoner has freedom because he gets to choose between playing checkers or chess.
You take video games way to seriously. I think you are beginning to forget they are pixels on a screen that offer enjoyment and kill time. I don't think because you play AoC or WoW you have never experienced true freedom.
Actually, Admierkr is right. And, it may be you don't take the games seriously enough.
It's not just a matter of either you enjoy a game or not; there is a third state of gaming: immersion. That magical feeling when you see a world through your character's eyes and feel you are almost "in" the game is wondrous.
But, artificial restrictions kill immersion.
TO me, AoC is immersive.
Artificial restrictions will always exist in one form or another, as these games are an artificial reality.
I love a good sandbox game, don't get me wrong...but I also understand that standing around trying to think of something to do, or having to micro-manage every little thing is not entertaining to everyone.
Also...I work for a living. When I get home...I don't want to have to work in my game too. I want to relax and have fun, enjoy a bit of story, and some action.
Maybe some day someone will develop the perfect sandbox game that can balance things nicely, but I don't see it happening in the near future. Until then, I'll be playing AoC.
Originally posted by BigMangoOriginally posted by Blackbandit9 So, if reading a quest makes you find the grind you're doing less boring, have fun in WoW and AoC. But I'm sorry to say, most of the quests in all games involve killing something and the time you spend running back to turn the quest in, you were most likely better off just staying there to kill some more.
Some people don't just play to kill mobs and grind levels to the top. Many actually play the game to get immersed in a world and its stories. If you are just playing to grind levels and kill mobs, then you're not playing the same game.
Next time please read through my entire post before making a comment. If you'd have read the last line, you'd have seen that my comments were directed toward those people that have played through the same story many times and those that play the game simply to see end-game. My point was - in sandbox MMOs you can see end-game quicker if you're one of those that doesn't want to full around with newbie stuff. My second point, playing through WoW and AoC 5 times will get boring with the same story. In sandbox MMOs, you don't even have to create another character to change YOUR story, but even if you do - you can't possibly take the same route like you are forced to do in WoW.
Yep, you're right. I was a little quick on that one
Again, I just don't get it. Funcom has said from day one this would be a quest-driven game. Yet all these people got it, tried it, then write whiny bad reviews because it wasn't sandbox. So uh...why did you get it in the first place? Like, I'm cool if it's not everyone's cup of tea. I tend to think that some of the worse "pro-sandbox" detractors of the game are perhaps underestimating what you CAN do in the game by focusing on what you CAN'T do, but /shrug to that. Again, I just don't get why someone buys an orange when they want an apple and, knowing it's an orange before they buy, proceeds to complain it's not an apple. I'm interested in seeing some apples on the market too, but belittling oranges isn't going to help that.
Edit: I had my fruit crossed.
We bought an orange when we wanted an apple because they made it sound a lot more like we were going to get an apple - or at least an orple (orange is a really hard word to work with).
That probably made no sense so clarification - AoC cities. On the FAQ pages on community.ageofconan.com they mention player made cities and battlekeeps that can be added on to. Now someone that played SWG would think a player city means we purchase or rent an area of land and we put all the structures available however we want. Meaning a large guild might actually have someone design the city as their job (ie. housing rows, ideal locations for shops, cantinas, planning for expansion, etc.) but if you read into developer's walkthroughs and interviews you would see that yes you can build player cities, but following the layout that Funcom built in. You can't just place any building anywhere on your land (ie. a sandbox) you have to abide by their limitations and restrictions.
Going into AoC I knew it was going to be much like WoW, heavy on quests. After the first ten levels, I wanted to kill myself. Most quests take two minutes to do, five minutes to walk to, and 5 minutes of loading. AoC talked heavily about their massive world, well I don't recall rereading that EVERY little area that could be put on another part of their servers actually is. I understand lag issues, but they overdid it. Loading into houses? Loading into a tiny island? They don't even make it clever - you click on a boat to load. I feel like I'm playing Pirates of the Burning Sea.
So far I've seen many complaints about Funcom's customer service (lack of). People have had problems with the early access since Saturday and as of 3 days later - no response from Funcom. I understand they may have expected a smaller launch but still, failure to prepare is preparing to fail. Most of you think that because the opening went smoother than any before that it was a success but this is untrue (4 hour delay, not enough servers, then problems with certain servers, xp exploits already, extended, DAILY, patches - if they needed another 3 days, I doubt most people would've noticed that added onto the five years some have been waiting). The $5 some of you paid to "play early" was not a gift to you, it was a gift to Funcom. They got an extra 3 days to fix bugs and other problems - at YOUR expense, so there would be less of a fuss when the majority of players arrived on May 20th. You beta players played for free right? So why did Early Access pay to play the final beta version of the game (anyone who played SWG knew what it was like to play the beta version of a game for years - at least Funcom will fix their bugs)? Funcom failed, just not nearly as badly as most other's do.
I guess my expectations (and a lot of others) were heavily raised for this game and it turned out just average. I won't even go into my thoughts on the combat but sadly I think WoW's combat crushes AoC.
Belittling oranges is the only way we can express to these companies that there is still a player base for those types of games. Unfortunately we don't number anywhere close to 10 million like WoW so even if a company makes a linear game and steals even just 5% of the playerbase from WoW, it's still more than they'd get making a sandbox. Us sandbox players are picky, and many would write off a game just based on the theme (ie. many people dislike EVE because it's space based).
A game is what you make it. I know people that hated questing in Vanguard and they instead grinded out their levels hunting mobs. They burned out. I kow people that grinded out skills in SWG and got burned out. I know people that grinded out levels in many different MMORPG's just by hunting MOBS. You can choose to do this in AoC...it will no don't be slower that way...but I suppose it could be done. Quest are cool because it allows you to participate in a story. Sorta like reading a book and following the adventures of the main characters....but in an MMORPG...your character is the character. Also...when I say you make a game what it is...by using your imagination. AoC is a great place for me to just let my imagination play in. Just as Vangaurd was and SWG, and AC2, and AC, and every other MMORPG I have ever played. I made the game fit my play style. All these games allow the player some form of freedom and AoC is no different. I started my online gaming experience in freeform roleplaying MUDS and all we had was our imagination our words and the ability to roll dice. I remember long discussions in gaming forums on BBS about creating online 3d virtual worlds and how someday they'd be a reality and it wasn't a few years later we were playing EQ. All these games are linear to some extent because the games world are generally pretty small and you're confined to it. Only three games I know of with extremely large worlds to explore were AC, SWG and Vanguard. Vanguard is massive. I have been playing that game since launch and still have only seen maybe 3/5's of it. I only recently canceled my subscription to VG. Someday I may resubcribe if SOE ever finishes it and polishes it. Although you could travel anywhere you wished in VG...in reality you had to take certain paths because that is how the MOBS are layed out....just as they are in most MMORPG's. These games are only as good as the tools provided to the player to make the game fun. A game like Planetside was simple in form, but playing it with a good group of people and the fact that the game provided most everything we players needed to make our own fun. Eventually you learned the names of individual players, not only on your side, but the opposing teams side as well. Competition becomes the game then. AoC offers a unique end game. Sorta like Planetside. I find AoC very fun in that respect and am all ready getting into the PvP drama of the server I have chosen. Making lots of friends...and enemies...all in the name of gaming fun! Funcom has given us a fun game with the tools to make the game more than what it is. If you don't know what to do with those tools...then all you need to do is learn. Your imagination will play a huge part in this.
Gee, if I hear this "a game is what you make it" just one more time I am going to yell. No offense meant, but take reading a book as example. It may be you generally like a lot of things, so you read on, but there are also a lot of things you dont like at all, now do you skip those pages or tear them out to have only the good ones? Thats balderdash. If a game is MADE around quests you DO them - or you leave the game. Sure, a game, unlike a book has more variance, but it still isnt "make everything you want of it". There are pathways and patters, things that work and things which dont or only very very difficult.
To me it sounds like all MMos are nice and well and if we the players are not happy with them its because we are too dumb, and sorry I am buying a product here. (Or rather not, in AoC, just for the theory.) I have my demands as to any other product, wethers its ice cream or cars or or pants. A game must OFFER things, be it quest guidance or sandbox space but in the long run the rules and possibilities are set. Sure, if I dont like the ending of a book, I can pretend it ended otherwise, but why then buy not another book in the first place? Imagination? If I wanted to use my imagination I wouldnt need games, I'd just toss a blanket over my head and save the money.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
I'll have to disagree with your claims that Theme parks MMO's lack a proper social side. I was an EQ2 player from launch right up until the second last expansion. That game is your typical Theme park MMO. The guild community there were very active socially. I had just as much social interaction in EQ2 as I had playing Uo from 1997 until 2002. I left both for the same reason. It was time for something different. There is a big social side to Theme Parks MMO's. The communities within a theme park MMO are there if you choose to get involved. Solo yet another alt through a theme park MMO can grind you down, I agree, but doing it with a community you joined within the game makes getting alts up to scratch a breeze.
A game is what you make it. I know people that hated questing in Vanguard and they instead grinded out their levels hunting mobs. They burned out. I kow people that grinded out skills in SWG and got burned out. I know people that grinded out levels in many different MMORPG's just by hunting MOBS. You can choose to do this in AoC...it will no don't be slower that way...but I suppose it could be done. Quest are cool because it allows you to participate in a story. Sorta like reading a book and following the adventures of the main characters....but in an MMORPG...your character is the character.
Also...when I say you make a game what it is...by using your imagination. AoC is a great place for me to just let my imagination play in. Just as Vangaurd was and SWG, and AC2, and AC, and every other MMORPG I have ever played. I made the game fit my play style. All these games allow the player some form of freedom and AoC is no different.
I started my online gaming experience in freeform roleplaying MUDS and all we had was our imagination our words and the ability to roll dice. I remember long discussions in gaming forums on BBS about creating online 3d virtual worlds and how someday they'd be a reality and it wasn't a few years later we were playing EQ.
All these games are linear to some extent because the games world are generally pretty small and you're confined to it. Only three games I know of with extremely large worlds to explore were AC, SWG and Vanguard. Vanguard is massive. I have been playing that game since launch and still have only seen maybe 3/5's of it. I only recently canceled my subscription to VG. Someday I may resubcribe if SOE ever finishes it and polishes it. Although you could travel anywhere you wished in VG...in reality you had to take certain paths because that is how the MOBS are layed out....just as they are in most MMORPG's.
These games are only as good as the tools provided to the player to make the game fun. A game like Planetside was simple in form, but playing it with a good group of people and the fact that the game provided most everything we players needed to make our own fun. Eventually you learned the names of individual players, not only on your side, but the opposing teams side as well. Competition becomes the game then. AoC offers a unique end game. Sorta like Planetside. I find AoC very fun in that respect and am all ready getting into the PvP drama of the server I have chosen. Making lots of friends...and enemies...all in the name of gaming fun!
Funcom has given us a fun game with the tools to make the game more than what it is. If you don't know what to do with those tools...then all you need to do is learn. Your imagination will play a huge part in this.
I agree. Just imagination without tools/mechnaics doesnt do the job in the long run. I posted it weeks a go. I do belief that AoC will be bigtime fun for me, but not more then maybe 6 months. I do love story telling mmos (i do enjoy the auto-attack thing in storytelling games tho
) According to the Stone interview at uberguild it will be 6 days (~ 144h) to level 80. This is 6 weeks storytelling gameplay for me personally. And then ? PvP in any form isnt an option. PvP is not content, the roots of PvP are an extension of roleplay. Yeah, really. Raiding ? Nah... thanks. I am oldschool EQ2'er. A raid should be the cherry on top of a quest. Tier based raids like vanguard, EQ2 (tier 8) and now in AoC are....
BS.
You have been the vanguardian priestess of detail and small things. In WoW the fact that i have to take a break and fish for 10 minutes to feed my cat (and increase its DPS) is the stuff the OP was talking about.
The "2nd comming" should get rid of levels and replace it with a deeper system of mob cons. Deserted noob zones are a pain for a virtual living and breathing world. The pradigm of "endgame" has to vanish. Its the biggest roadblocker on the road of mmo evolution. A "mature" game should alos have "mature" gameplay. Like managing logistics in a world of decay. If you want to have an adventure in AoC and vistic the stygian jungleit should be similar to a real life expedition to the basilian jungle. Do you have the money ?, the equipment ?, the skill ?
However, i do not see any 3rd or 4th gen sandbox out there. The genre is probably dead. Such a game would bind people in the long term and those players wont buy any other game. We have a proverb over here.. "A crow doesnt pick the eye of another crow".
Lets enjoy the hyperborean journey as long as it lasts !
I see no freedom in AoC. All i see are hundreds and hundreds of mind-numbing quests that Im forced to do.
I know this might be hard to understand if your the type that wants to be entertained, but I dont want quests forced down my throat. I want to do my own thing.
I gotta laugh at the posts here stating that AoC and games like WoW have freedom in them. You people are slaves and dont even know it because you havent experienced true freedom yet.
Its like saying a prisoner has freedom because he gets to choose between playing checkers or chess.
So why don't you just go on your way ? You can go to all of the areas you want and kill the mobe you want. At level 20 you can start harvesting (though you need to sneak through to get to the harvesting places at that level), then at level 40 you can craft. While doing all of this you can trade your drops and later on your crafted goods to make money. You can join a guild, build a city. And all of this is even better on a pvp server as you can level while pvping, etc...
And while doing this you can always take a break with the destiny quests. First you get to lvl 20 then there is nothing (destiny quest) until lvl 30 and so on have plenty of time to enjoy yourself as you want.
LOL. See we need a review site that writes up games in this way. Brutal, honest, humorous and a friend of the players instead of the corporations.
one week of beta and i found the game to be delicious
maybe with enough time ill be able to see as you do
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
Oh, to all those that are calling sandbox games a grindfest - WoW takes....anywhere from 6 to 15+ days for people to grind to 70. 6-8 days assuming you did nothing but quest and grind your way to each new location. Anything over 10 and you probably enjoyed yourself a little more and PvPed and instanced some to make it more fun. SWG on the other hand, I could "grind" an entire profession (Swordsman) in 8 hours. Another, harder to grind profession might've taken me the better part of a week or two (probably still coming out under 3 or 4 days playing time). I was doing endgame content within a few weeks with a complete template and a nice suit of armor that I bought - didn't raid with 24 other people for 9 months to get. At full temp, I was 90% of my way to where the veteran's were at. 90% meaning if you were good and a bit lucky, you could kill some of them (the last 10% was in armor & weapon enhancements and CAs & AAs). People who say that sandbox games are hard to get into are wrong. Sandbox games are VERY hard to get past the first few days. Once you do that, you can pretty much buy your way (if you have a friend) or earn enough quickly to almost compete with veterans. In WoW, you get to 70 and either spend 3 months grinding BGs and arenas to start to look like everyone else or you raid for months to get gear that can't even be effectively used for casual PvP.
So, if reading a quest makes you find the grind you're doing less boring, have fun in WoW and AoC. But I'm sorry to say, most of the quests in all games involve killing something and the time you spend running back to turn the quest in, you were most likely better off just staying there to kill some more. Argue this all you want, but read some articles on people grinding to 60 in 5 days on WoW, they skipped a lot of quests. The reason you can't seem to skip quests or the reason you think quests are faster than grinding, is because you have fallen for the dev's trick. You not only think you are getting more xp for doing the quests but you think it is faster, when really you're just working your brain a little bit more.
For those of you that enjoy the storyline in AoC, please disregard. The above was targetted toward those people who have played through a game several times and still don't understand.
Some people don't just play to kill mobs and grind levels to the top. Many actually play the game to get immersed in a world and its stories. If you are just playing to grind levels and kill mobs, then you're not playing the same game.
AoC is linear 1-20 but 20-80? No-one really knows yet.
Linear games suffer unless they introduce fresh free content on a regular basis, Lotro is a good example of how to do this well with free new content every month. AoC will either have to do the same or have awesome pvp which in itself keeps players coming back.
A game with good open-field style pvp is effectively non-linear from this point onwards as the players make their own fun to a certian extent bashing each others keeps in.
Try the pvp at high level, then comment about how linear the game is.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Some people don't just play to kill mobs and grind levels to the top. Many actually play the game to get immersed in a world and its stories. If you are just playing to grind levels and kill mobs, then you're not playing the same game.
Next time please read through my entire post before making a comment. If you'd have read the last line, you'd have seen that my comments were directed toward those people that have played through the same story many times and those that play the game simply to see end-game. My point was - in sandbox MMOs you can see end-game quicker if you're one of those that doesn't want to full around with newbie stuff. My second point, playing through WoW and AoC 5 times will get boring with the same story. In sandbox MMOs, you don't even have to create another character to change YOUR story, but even if you do - you can't possibly take the same route like you are forced to do in WoW.
Just wanted to say I agree with pretty much everything your saying admriker and everyone else who’s expressed similar views.
But I no longer have the inclination to join the debate anymore due to apathy with the majority of the MMO industry who keeps producing these types of games and the ever increasing number of people who keep playing them who appear to be blissfully unaware or willfully ignorant of how restraining they are and how far short they fall of the true potential and freedom offered by this genre.
Trying to explain to them so they can understand is like trying to explain to a flatlander what the 3rd dimension is like.
Depressingly I personally think its just reflects the broader effect of everything increasingly being designed or modified so that is can be marketed and appealing to the lowest common denominator.
I agree
There are millions of new MMO gamers to this arena thanks to World of Warcraft. They judge every future MMO by how WoW played. They have no idea that sandbox MMO's used to be the norm (and should be again). In their mind, MMO's began with WoW.
In 3 months we'll see dozens of posts complaining that there is nothing to do now. Thats because they did all the rides in the Conan Amusement Park.
Ive cancelled my account already. I made it to lvl 33, I dont need to see anymore. The linear path is clear...repeat quests over and over until I reach 80. I can then start all over again or pvp, no thanks.
There are better options, see you in EVE
You take video games way to seriously. I think you are beginning to forget they are pixels on a screen that offer enjoyment and kill time. I don't think because you play AoC or WoW you have never experienced true freedom.
If you feel like a slave to a game, then you need to logout and quit it. Just because you don't like a game style doesn't mean many others feel the same way. Go play Eve or whatever game fits your playstyle. Sitting here and whining about the failure of sandbox games does nothing but make you sound like a baby. Insulting people who happen to like quest-based games just makes you look like a tool.
I agree
There are millions of new MMO gamers to this arena thanks to World of Warcraft. They judge every future MMO by how WoW played. They have no idea that sandbox MMO's used to be the norm (and should be again). In their mind, MMO's began with WoW.
In 3 months we'll see dozens of posts complaining that there is nothing to do now. Thats because they did all the rides in the Conan Amusement Park.
Ive cancelled my account already. I made it to lvl 33, I dont need to see anymore. The linear path is clear...repeat quests over and over until I reach 80. I can then start all over again or pvp, no thanks.
There are better options, see you in EVE
I agree with you. I don't know why dev's have been on this four-year kick of designing linear games that force or compel a specific path, when all many players want is a giant sandbox world to explore.
There is nothing, nothing, nothing more irritating than a simple, but forced linear in-game tutorial. Tutorials suck. Basically, Funcom spent lots of cash designing a feature that sucks into their game; they unknowingly spent money to drive off players. Some players, anyway.
I'm tempted to cancel on Day 1; but am a little angry about giving Funcom my $50.
I have said this before, but I think our best gaming years are behind us.
Actually, Admierkr is right. And, it may be you don't take the games seriously enough.You take video games way to seriously. I think you are beginning to forget they are pixels on a screen that offer enjoyment and kill time. I don't think because you play AoC or WoW you have never experienced true freedom.
It's not just a matter of either you enjoy a game or not; there is a third state of gaming: immersion. That magical feeling when you see a world through your character's eyes and feel you are almost "in" the game is wondrous.
But, artificial restrictions kill immersion.
Again, I just don't get it. Funcom has said from day one this would be a quest-driven game. Yet all these people got it, tried it, then write whiny bad reviews because it wasn't sandbox.
So uh...why did you get it in the first place? Like, I'm cool if it's not everyone's cup of tea. I tend to think that some of the worse "pro-sandbox" detractors of the game are perhaps underestimating what you CAN do in the game by focusing on what you CAN'T do, but /shrug to that.
Again, I just don't get why someone buys an orange when they want an apple and, knowing it's an orange before they buy, proceeds to complain it's not an apple. I'm interested in seeing some apples on the market too, but belittling oranges isn't going to help that.
Edit: I had my fruit crossed.
Actually, Admierkr is right. And, it may be you don't take the games seriously enough.You take video games way to seriously. I think you are beginning to forget they are pixels on a screen that offer enjoyment and kill time. I don't think because you play AoC or WoW you have never experienced true freedom.
It's not just a matter of either you enjoy a game or not; there is a third state of gaming: immersion. That magical feeling when you see a world through your character's eyes and feel you are almost "in" the game is wondrous.
But, artificial restrictions kill immersion.
TO me, AoC is immersive.Artificial restrictions will always exist in one form or another, as these games are an artificial reality.
I love a good sandbox game, don't get me wrong...but I also understand that standing around trying to think of something to do, or having to micro-manage every little thing is not entertaining to everyone.
Also...I work for a living. When I get home...I don't want to have to work in my game too. I want to relax and have fun, enjoy a bit of story, and some action.
Maybe some day someone will develop the perfect sandbox game that can balance things nicely, but I don't see it happening in the near future. Until then, I'll be playing AoC.
Some people don't just play to kill mobs and grind levels to the top. Many actually play the game to get immersed in a world and its stories. If you are just playing to grind levels and kill mobs, then you're not playing the same game.
Next time please read through my entire post before making a comment. If you'd have read the last line, you'd have seen that my comments were directed toward those people that have played through the same story many times and those that play the game simply to see end-game. My point was - in sandbox MMOs you can see end-game quicker if you're one of those that doesn't want to full around with newbie stuff. My second point, playing through WoW and AoC 5 times will get boring with the same story. In sandbox MMOs, you don't even have to create another character to change YOUR story, but even if you do - you can't possibly take the same route like you are forced to do in WoW.
Yep, you're right. I was a little quick on that one
That probably made no sense so clarification - AoC cities. On the FAQ pages on community.ageofconan.com they mention player made cities and battlekeeps that can be added on to. Now someone that played SWG would think a player city means we purchase or rent an area of land and we put all the structures available however we want. Meaning a large guild might actually have someone design the city as their job (ie. housing rows, ideal locations for shops, cantinas, planning for expansion, etc.) but if you read into developer's walkthroughs and interviews you would see that yes you can build player cities, but following the layout that Funcom built in. You can't just place any building anywhere on your land (ie. a sandbox) you have to abide by their limitations and restrictions.
Going into AoC I knew it was going to be much like WoW, heavy on quests. After the first ten levels, I wanted to kill myself. Most quests take two minutes to do, five minutes to walk to, and 5 minutes of loading. AoC talked heavily about their massive world, well I don't recall rereading that EVERY little area that could be put on another part of their servers actually is. I understand lag issues, but they overdid it. Loading into houses? Loading into a tiny island? They don't even make it clever - you click on a boat to load. I feel like I'm playing Pirates of the Burning Sea.
So far I've seen many complaints about Funcom's customer service (lack of). People have had problems with the early access since Saturday and as of 3 days later - no response from Funcom. I understand they may have expected a smaller launch but still, failure to prepare is preparing to fail. Most of you think that because the opening went smoother than any before that it was a success but this is untrue (4 hour delay, not enough servers, then problems with certain servers, xp exploits already, extended, DAILY, patches - if they needed another 3 days, I doubt most people would've noticed that added onto the five years some have been waiting). The $5 some of you paid to "play early" was not a gift to you, it was a gift to Funcom. They got an extra 3 days to fix bugs and other problems - at YOUR expense, so there would be less of a fuss when the majority of players arrived on May 20th. You beta players played for free right? So why did Early Access pay to play the final beta version of the game (anyone who played SWG knew what it was like to play the beta version of a game for years - at least Funcom will fix their bugs)? Funcom failed, just not nearly as badly as most other's do.
I guess my expectations (and a lot of others) were heavily raised for this game and it turned out just average. I won't even go into my thoughts on the combat but sadly I think WoW's combat crushes AoC.
Belittling oranges is the only way we can express to these companies that there is still a player base for those types of games. Unfortunately we don't number anywhere close to 10 million like WoW so even if a company makes a linear game and steals even just 5% of the playerbase from WoW, it's still more than they'd get making a sandbox. Us sandbox players are picky, and many would write off a game just based on the theme (ie. many people dislike EVE because it's space based).
Wait For DARKFALL , I hear that has everything you want
How can you review a game, that you have barely played. Make little sense.
To me it sounds like all MMos are nice and well and if we the players are not happy with them its because we are too dumb, and sorry I am buying a product here. (Or rather not, in AoC, just for the theory.) I have my demands as to any other product, wethers its ice cream or cars or or pants. A game must OFFER things, be it quest guidance or sandbox space but in the long run the rules and possibilities are set. Sure, if I dont like the ending of a book, I can pretend it ended otherwise, but why then buy not another book in the first place? Imagination? If I wanted to use my imagination I wouldnt need games, I'd just toss a blanket over my head and save the money.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Then go do that