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PlaneShift devs, you deserve a medal!
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I second that! Yay devs!
Queen of fools, your post is filled with the pot calling the kettle black. Blame for negativity towards the dev team lies with the dev team.
Karyuu, moon's examples were flawed. The official forum has a feature where you can read through all posts by a particular user. Since you're asking me to name names, I've found that Caarrie and Xillix are particularly bad for making obnoxious posts. Xillix for snide one liners - Caarrie for replying with an aggressive tone of superiority. Talad's posts on this forum here make for a more dramatic read however. I do not mean any of this as a personal attack, these are merely my observations on posting habits.
Oh no, snide one liners!
It is funny to me how mostly only trolls dislike my posting style, generally speaking, I am pretty well respected in the community.
You can be well respected and imperfect at the same time.
Nevermind.
You can be well respected and imperfect at the same time.
Perhaps as head of the settings team taking time out of the busy work to be done, there is only time to make short posts, at least it lets me know Xillix is reading the posts I make and pondering them.
Assuming this offer hasn't gone stale, here's recent example of unfortunate happenings on the official forum:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32342.0
I would pay special attention to Under the Moon's posts in that thread, but the problem is general overall.
Someone new to Planeshift came to the game and gave a reasonable critique of the game. He was met with unwarranted opposition. Developers responded to him with a defensive and accusatory tone.
You can reply back saying that these individuals are not trained in public relations, that they are merely volunteers doing the best they can, and the dev team includes "strong personalities", but those are merely excuses for the problem and my point is that the problem exists. There's no good reason why threads like that should turn into four pages of fighting. It would help if certain individuals had it within them to say "Yes, I see where you're coming from on this. There does appear to be a [contradiction / shortcoming / hole / area of improvement] here, at least to those who are new to the game."
Start by saying "Yes" and THEN go into all the reasons and excuses for why things are. Don't come out attacking. The dev team won't make many friends that way, although you will attract more "strong personalities".
Here's another good example of devs acting inappropriately.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=31945.0
Another new player posted with his impressions of the game. He gave a very reasonable critique of the game in its current state. Jeraphon (another repeat offender) could have responded with something like this: "Yes, we're aware of these problems and we're currently working on them. Thank you for taking the time to write about your experience. Here are some things you might try to improve game play." Instead, he posted this brilliant piece of rubbish:
> "(The OP as quoted by Jeraphon, Jeraphon took out this one line from a very long post) I am affraid I will be found on Runescape!"
>(Jeraphon's response): Yeah...that sums it all up in more ways than one.
Jeraphon's reply was useless and arrogant. Under the Moon's post isn't great either.
(Under the Moon) "We promise to offer players a better experience in the future. No, your complaints will not all be adressed to your personal satisfaction. Some may be. It will not all happen anytime soon. Tracking minimaps will never happen (as I have been told).
I would also like to point out at this time that PS does not have a single person that works full time on the game. Not one. Not a single person is paid to work on the game, or gets any money out of it. Not one. Not a single person working on the game is indebted to the players.
Am I defending the game? No. I am merely pointing out that we are not your servants. We work on the game because it is enjoyable for us to do so.
Having said that, and having briefly looked at Runescape, you are free to remain there as long as you wish."
Thankfully, later posts in the thread are better (including yours!), but no one can tell me there isn't a problem when clearly there is.
I concur, the official forums suck due to everyone's attitude. I'd even consider advertising my guild here just because I hate that forum so damn much. Hell, as of today it's summer for me so maybe I have time to do something about that forum.
And yet, you still have no evidence to back up your statement, "Negative feedback is banned, criticism is punished, and ballanced reviews are dismissed reflexively." Which happens to be what my post was about.
Honestly, is this new 'evidence' the best you can come up with? In your first 'evidence', the person had a 'minor' issue with why some things are the way they are. I explained it nicely. He dismissed my answers. In my second post, I explained it again, a bit mockingly, but not by 'punishing, banning, or reflexively dismissing' what he said. Once again, he dismissed what I wrote as wrong and started to get an aggressive tone, even calling me 'foo'. My next post was -very- specific why the things he was questioning are the way they are. I was not the nicest, but was not abussive either. Quite fair for responding to someone who 'reflexively dismissed' two of my posts that gave him the answers already.
Your second example... "very reasonable critique of the game in its current state". Yes, let me quote some of that.
"More annoying"
A very nice way to put something. Not insulting at all. Much better than, "I did not like how this was done."
"Worst yet"
Same as above.
"actually the worst thing is there is no map! zip! nada!"
"Aside from all this, when you log into the forum and mention ways to improve the game [by putting in minimaps], the creator pretty much flatly refuses!"
The Devs say no to something that has been debated for years before coming to the decision to leave them out, -and- give the reason why they choose to do so, so he attacks them for it?
"A horrible place [the Death Realm] of endless paths that lead nowhere"
Inaccurate, but we are striving to make it so.
Of course, he did not mean it in a nice way. Finally:
"I have had the worst gaming experience ever! What is wrong with having maps and compasses? If you don't feel they add to your roleplaying, THEN DON"T USE THEM! No one is forcing players to use features in a game... ...So until the Death Realm dies, maps appear (or at least a compass, and npc's can understand SOMETHING I say to them, I am affraid I will be found on Runescape!"
His issue with the maps was already addressed in another thread (no), so that is not a problem for the game. The rest of his post was aggressive and demanding. Basically, he wants PS to be more like Runescape. As I am sure you know, most people around PlaneShift see being compared to Runescape as a severe insult.
Not to mention this post:
Re: Pros vs Cons
Reasonable? I think not. What you have in that person is someone who thinks he is right beyond a doubt, wants everything his way, and wants it right now. He more than insinuates in an insulting manner that the Devs are not intelligent, don't listen to anybody, and are doing everything wrong just because -he- did not have fun. Come in that aggressive, and you will be met with the same no matter where you go. Also note that he talks about 'we' and how 'they' respond to 'us' by saying it is 'our' fault. Only one Dev responded to him before that second post, and he said nothing of the sort. Other players where the ones saying they did not have the same issues as him. My post after his insulting one was neutral and I would not change it nor apologize for it, and honestly, he can go play RS if that is what he enjoys. You can also note how many players came in to say they either liked the parts of the game he was complaining about, or adapted to them without much difficultly.
I am still waiting for your evidence to support "Negative feedback is banned, criticism is punished, and ballanced reviews are dismissed reflexively."
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
If a dev actually feels that they are not indebted to the players in any way, that dev has a screw loose.
Poor you. Someone had an opinion you disagreed with, and he stuck to it even after you showed him the error of his ways.
As far as the second thread is concerned, maps were just one among many issues the original poster brought up. He also was unhappy with:
- the levelling system
- the game being too dark to navigate
- awkward game interface and menus
- item manipulation being too complicated and involved
- difficulty communicating with NPCs
- the death realm
The fact is that pretty much every new player has trouble with these things. It takes a while to get into the game.
Since you're intent on talking about maps, let's do that: New players feel they need an overhead map when they enter the game so they know their way around. So, does that mean we add an overhead map to the game? NO. But there IS a problem and there ARE creative solutions for it. All you need to do as a dev is admit there's a problem, and show such players that you're interested in finding a solution to it.
You've admitted that there are people who see the devs as obstinate and resistant to criticism. What I'm saying is that there's a reason for that reputation.
If a dev actually feels that they are not indebted to the players in any way, that dev has a screw loose.
And even if they're only concerned with attracting other developers, their main source of recruitment is... the players!Even if a potential recruit isn't personally affected, they're going to see what crap goes on and think "Hmm, look at how they treat people! Maybe this isn't a project I want to be involved in!"
The exception to this are individuals who are actually ATTRACTED by such a dynamic, and I can't say I would want such individuals working for me!
Zorven, so you are saying that even after the Devs spend countless hours of their free time working on the game without getting paid for it just so people can play, we are still indebted to -them- more than we have already paid? That is seriously messed up. I wager you don't do any volunteer work. I work hard doing what I do, as do the other folks who work on the game. The players don't pay anything to play the game and most of them don't even use the bugtracker. I don't own anyone anything, including either of you.
And pstruth, someone trying to contradict me with ignorance is not 'sticking it to me'. Simply put, his preconceptions of how things work even in real life were wrong.
I stand by what I said about your second 'example'. He was rude and unreasonable in his 'requests'. I just looked back at some of his posts in other threads where he also demanded a fog-of-war type minimap among other things. Yes, he has problems with some of those other things. Other people do not, and like those things just the way they are. What he is doing is like borrowing your neighbor's SUV, which is still being built and does not run right, then returning it to them without filling up the tank and starting to complain to them that it is not a 4WD pickup with GPS, AC, Power everything, free Sat radio.
As to your 'point' that we have to start admitting there are problems, that is either just pure ignorance or underhanded mudslinging innuendo.
- the levelling system: Everyone knows there is a problem with it. The Devs have talked about it countless times with players. The main problem? It is a very complicated chunk of code that branches off into all other aspects of the game. You can't just up and change it in an instant. It is going to take a great deal of time.
- the game being too dark to navigate: It is being worked on, as stated in many other threads. What part of "Yes, we are trying to fix that. Give us more information about the system you are playing on," is not admitting there is a problem? It is a graphics card or screen issue. Some people have it, some don't.
- awkward game interface and menus: The GUI is being constantly redesigned, much of the time based on player suggestions. Do you think the Devs sit back and say "No there is not a problem here, but we want you to help fix it."?
- item manipulation being too complicated and involved: Same as above, only with more difficult code.
- difficulty communicating with NPCs: We don't admit that is a problem? This thread says it all. Think NPCs are dumb? Click here! Will the Devs change it to a dropdown menu with selectable answers to please the people who like it that way in other games? No. There are many other folks who like using the text based interface.
That post is not by someone within our target audience. The only thing he liked was that the game looked good. Everything else he wanted was to copy the way Runescape or WoW does things. So honestly, I don't care what he wants. The posts I listen to are the ones that say: "I don't like this feature now because it is broke or implimented wrong, but I like the basic idea of it. This is how I would improve it." Anyone who says: "I am leaving and not coming back until you make this game the way I want it!" I hope they find what they are looking for elsewhere. I don't care to see them come back.
And you still have not given any evidence to back up "banned, punished, discounted". Either come up with some, or retract that slanderous comment. Or can't you admit that you are wrong?
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
Ever notice why game devs, movie makers, and hell, even car dealers, always make it a point to tell their customers "We owe it all to you."? Because they do.
Business suicide? Please. You have to be a business first.
You make the mistake of comparing PlaneShift to places that fleece people to make a profit (seriously, car dealers?). Yes, those places do owe their existence to their customers. PlaneShift owes its existence to the dedication of the Devs and testers who actually contribute something. The code and game exists because the Devs volunteer their time, not because the players pay them to do so like in your examples. The project would continue to build even without players, to be honest. The commercial games you are comparing PlaneShift to do not even -have- players at the stage PS is in. Don't get me wrong. I am creating what I create for people to enjoy, and greatly appreciate the people who do enjoy it, but neither I nor the other folks who work on the project are obligated in any way to them. We don't "owe it all to them" for the simple reason that they do not pay us to make it. We do what we do because we enjoy it. They play because they enjoy it. That is a fair trade, and no one owes anyone anything.
PlaneShift is not a business. We do not profit from it. It is not a soup kitchen. No one is going to starve if they don't come. It is not a required public service. We don't have to do it.
It is an act of good will, creating a personal park in our free time where people are invited to enjoy our vision. If you don't like that the grass is not grown up nice yet, the buildings are not completely built, or the playground does not have your favorite equipment, we are not obligated to change it or put a rush on anything to please you. And honestly, the less people around that are constantly complaining that our free park does not have all the 'cool' things like neon lights and constant drinking parties that that other high cost toll park has, the better.
I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.
I don't think Talad's goal is to create a game that nobody plays.
UtMoon, not only do I have experience with volunteer organizations, but my experience with volunteers and non profits is why I'm not surprised with the dev culture at Planeshift, even though I am disappointed with the dynamic that has developed there and I think it could have been avoided with better leadership.
It's very easy for volunteers to become resentful when they feel unappreciated and overworked, or if they feel they've been given too much or too little responsibility. It's very difficult to run a volunteer organization successfully given all the caretaking volunteers require, especially in a team setting. If problems aren't quickly and effectively addressed by the leadership, problems can spiral out of control.
Entire books have been written on this topic and there's really no way I can describe in a single post how to effectively run a volunteer organization. There's too much to say about it, and I'm not wise enough anyway. But I do think certain actions could be taken to improve the dev culture at Planeshift. It seems that the developers are under a high degree of stress from a high workload and a system based on schedules and quotas. That's where I would look first. I would also look at what creative opportunities volunteers have or lack, and whether or not increasing creative opportunities for team members would have benefit if such is possible. To be fair, I don't have explicit knowledge of life inside the dev sphere, but it does seem like the personal needs of the devs aren't being met and the players are suffering the consequences.
Whatever approach is taken, what's mandatory is putting an end to abuses. Even if the developers are unpaid volunteers, they must be made to understand that no amount of resentment or feelings of entitlement are enough to justify the unfair or unfriendly treatment of players. Developers must find another outlet for their frustrations, or simply avoid contact with players all together. If volunteers are unable to behave themselves, further actions must be taken.
Oh dear, here we are again, the devs are abusing the players.
OUCH
How did we get here and how do we get out of here?
I see no such abuse.
At all.
None.
We are consistently engaged with the community and respond in a timely fashion to all player complaints that it is feasible for us to respond to.
I personally engage the player base actively and constantly and do my utmost to bring the player's concerns to the devs attention and have those concerns addressed.
It is a constant process and it does require tireless work. When the tireless work is not only thankless but also a rant filled whinefest it becomes harder rapidly.
In my experience with the dev team I can assure that internally we have an excellent relationship of mutual respect and dignity. We are all very supportive and open to one another's ideas. The communication within the team is frankly awesome and I have the honor to work with some of the most intelligent and talented and selfless people I have ever met.
We do in fact run on deadline, but all of those deadlines are soft. All any prospect or dev needs to do to get an extension for any task is simply alert their leader to the need for such an extension. It really is that simple. We do however require a basic minimum commitment and this stems from the very logical fact that all systems and departments are interdependent and we have goals that cannot be achieved if key members "drop the ball."
When a dev or prospect is incapable of meeting a certain (fluid) level of expectation they are not cast into the pits of hell, they are given less responsibility (sometimes simply sidelined) until they can return and take on more.
The greatest source of stress is external to the dev team. It is either players who feel a sense of entitlement that is disproportionate to their contributions, or when disgruntled players disparage the game on sites like this one.
I really do not see this systemic pattern of abuse that you constantly paint pstruth. I have come to recognize that you may in fact not be some sort of enemy of the game, but I do find that your perspective on the game is at times misguided and that you have caused harm to the game and cost devs and prospects hours arguing with you to tell you that they are not in fact abusing the players.
You have apologized to the devs in the past, yet you return to arguing the same points that caused you to apologize in the first place.
Again I will remind everyone here that the OP of this thread intended to offer us some congratulations and this thread has turned into another argument hole where those who take issue with elements of the game community are hashing out disputes already covered elsewhere. It is almost as if the game's detractors cannot stand for anyone to say something positive about the game or the game's creators without reminding us of many flaws we are aware of or making broad generalizations about dev behavior that we have consistently shown does not apply to all devs.
The argument that some devs including myself have delivered harsh words to the players or even individual players is certainly evidenced here or there not only in these forums but our own. But before the argument is made that any instance of this is too much, I remind the reader that in human interaction, these moments are factually unavoidable.
I have never been saddened by an instance of how I lost my cool with the player base or even individual players because on the whole I have been forgiven for any such instance and tend to have a very positive relationship with the player community that is based on communication and mutual respect.
Sometimes I have to say no. Sometimes I have to say not yet. Sometimes I have been asked to answer the same question ad nauseum and get a bit ornery; I am fine with that. One thing that should not be lost here is that players have the chance in a dynamic way to influence my opinions and practices as I approach developing the game. This kind of communication is almost wholly absent in professional game companies and many other projects. To me it is a net benefit regardless of small flare ups.
I have never felt the barest twinge of regret when a player has argued with me and ended up storming off. Their position has been stated and both myself and the individual have had an earnest human interaction which may or may not affect the final outcome of the project. To me, this is a lovely process.
Perhaps there is something to be said for disengaging entirely with the player base but this is a double edged sword. The players will their advocates among the devs and perhaps all accusations of dev abuse would cease. The cost here is too great imo. I am certain also that if the devs removed themselves from the discussion that the accusations about gm abuse would get louder, because for those who seek a problem a problem will always present itself.
I sincerely hope that these thoughts can be received without rancor.
hmmm the Devs are abusive? Well I can only say this about that . Shortly after I and my wife started to play ps there was a new version when we got it and loaded the game my wife was in oja there was a player there who was a dev he seemed more interested in what my wife thought of the game. the GM's I have met here are some pretty nice folks also. I have also seen one of the settings people work her tail off in this game just to make it better for the players. another of the settings puts polls on the forum and lets those who read them have a say in the game. 90% of the time it happens. yea sure the game has problems but rome was not built in a day.
QOF, you might as well admit that it happens given, you know, all those examples that were posted.
I've posted examples, and your response is to say there is no problem, even though UtMoon himself admits these things have happened.
He thinks it was justified in each case, I do not. So either you're ok with players being abused, or you don't see anything wrong with what's going on. But denying that these things are happening is not an option given the facts.
Denying that it happens at all, even though concrete examples have been posted? Lame.
Blaming the players for the actions of the devs? Also lame.
Thinking I might be an enemy of the game? Lame, mega paranoid, and lame.
And as far as my apology goes? It still stands. You just didn't do a good enough job of reading it. I never apologized for pointing out problems. I apologized for casting you in a light even more negative than you actually deserve.
I said there are instances of temper flare ups.
Characterizing that as abuse is Lame.
Repeatedly by specific individuals,
And often unprovoked
It forms a pattern
And cannot be simply dismissed as "instances of temper flare ups".
You just like to argue and find fault, get over it mate. Your posts here show a pattern of looking for any flaw making some up and misconstruing others.
I do not want to draw any more attention to your arguments than is needed. I hope you will find a more constructive hobby than tearing down the efforts of hard working people.
This isn't a flaw. This is a destructive pattern of behaviour repeated by specific Planeshift developers.
These are not arguments. Examples were asked for. I gave them. Now you deny everything. Contradiction and denial is not argument.
The abuses are there. If you deny they exist, or if you say they are justified, you prove people like me to be right.
I think rather that I prove that people like you have a marked tendency to make a lot out of a little.
I think it is very easy to demonstrate that you have a marked tendency to over-inflate the facts of any case in some misguided effort to denigrate the efforts of the developers of planeshift.
I think watching your posts on mmorpg alone, any objective observer can see a profound effort to cast planeshift and its developers and gms in a negative light.
I think that you have clearly misrepresented the intentions of the developers in regard to their behavior, their "business model," and the extent of their effort to manifest the dream of an ad free fee free mmorpg.
I think you have systematically ignored and even belittled every voice from among the community that has come here to say that you exaggerate what actually occurs in the community.
I think that you insist on dominating just about all coverage of PlaneShift on this forum with a negative spin.
I think you take this as a personal crusade, and I think you really should consider the damage you cause not only to PS but also to the good people who visit mmorpg.com to see what is said about the game only to find an entirely negative spin placed on it by you.
I think you cost the community many more players than all the devs or gms have ever lost the game due to their efforts to moderate the forums in the manner they deem appropriate.
I think you also have a tendency to need to have the last word.
I think that your scant examples out of PlaneShift's 335199 Posts in 27584 Topics by 27344 Members, in no way prove the systemic pattern of abuse you are eagerly decrying.