Seems to me, Josher is the only one MAKING points in this argument. Taliasin is tossing out generalizations with no specifics. And yes, I agree with Josher. The gameplay in WoW is at least as challenging as other games. They have removed tedium and timesinks -- not the same as "dumbing it down."
Since Josher is/was quoting my messages, one would expect that he had something to say about the comments made in those messages. Instead the responses were all to things Josher himself made. No points for talking to ones self.
Just for a few specifics, here are a few games I have played/beta tested, and for the OVERALL game play they tended to be more challenging:
Aardwolf, Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Dark and Light, DragonRealms, Dragons Gate, Dungeon Runners, Dungeons & Dragons Online, Earth & Beyond, Endless Ages, EverQuest, EverQuest II, Final Fantasy XI, Furcadia, Guild Wars, Horizons: Empires of Istaria, Irth Worlds, Knight Online, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Materia Magica, Meridian 59, Minions of Mirth, PlaneShift, Realms of Despair, Rubies of Eventide, Ryzom, Second Life, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Ultima Online, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Wish, World of Warcraft
This is, again, talking about the overall game play not single items/encounters. WoW is still an easy game in comparision to others of its ilk (Comparing it to something like Second Life would not be real meaningful.)
I have PvE/PvP/RvR/Solo'd/Been leader of successful Groups/Raids/Guilds and still find WoW the least challenging.
If you define what makes a game "hard" then maybe you could get answers more to your liking but until then the simplistic game play, lack of challenge, and "handholding" design make WoW the easiest to learn and master of the games I have played.
Seems to me, Josher is the only one MAKING points in this argument. Taliasin is tossing out generalizations with no specifics. And yes, I agree with Josher. The gameplay in WoW is at least as challenging as other games. They have removed tedium and timesinks -- not the same as "dumbing it down."
Since Josher is/was quoting my messages, one would expect that he had something to say about the comments made in those messages. Instead the responses were all to things Josher himself made. No points for talking to ones self. Just for a few specifics, here are a few games I have played/beta tested, and for the OVERALL game play they tended to be more challenging: Aardwolf, Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Dark and Light, DragonRealms, Dragons Gate, Dungeon Runners, Dungeons & Dragons Online, Earth & Beyond, Endless Ages, EverQuest, EverQuest II, Final Fantasy XI, Furcadia, Guild Wars, Horizons: Empires of Istaria, Irth Worlds, Knight Online, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Materia Magica, Meridian 59, Minions of Mirth, PlaneShift, Realms of Despair, Rubies of Eventide, Ryzom, Second Life, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Ultima Online, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Wish, World of Warcraft This is, again, talking about the overall game play not single items/encounters. WoW is still an easy game in comparision to others of its ilk (Comparing it to something like Second Life would not be real meaningful.) I have PvE/PvP/RvR/Solo'd/Been leader of successful Groups/Raids/Guilds and still find WoW the least challenging. If you define what makes a game "hard" then maybe you could get answers more to your liking but until then the simplistic game play, lack of challenge, and "handholding" design make WoW the easiest to learn and master of the games I have played.
I guess I just don't consider broken game mechanics or a lack of proper instructions that make a game tedious or overly complicated to understand as something difficult. its ONLY difficult because the developer didn't know how to streamline the game mechanics properly. I just call it badly designed, because most MMOs if they were actually tested thoroughly and BALANCED, they wouldn't be difficult at all.
Besides, you again ignored my main point. WOW is easy but its also quite difficult. Show me a boss FAQ from another MMO that equals or comes close to the complexity of some of WOW's high end bosses. Please explain how the game holds your hand when you're taking on the 4 Horseman for example? Please explain how simple it is to rank in the top 10 in the arenas? If its so simple everyone could do it. If the high end raids were so simple everyone could do those as well. You can spend 1000 hrs doing those raids but it doesn't matter unless you do them correctly. Most people give up because they're simply too hard. You can't just print up an FAQ and magically win. You have to actually execute the strategies and it ain't easy at 1st. Anyone who says it is is lying.
WOW's battle system is actually about as complex as it gets for a MMO when played against other players that actually know what they're doing or against bosses that aren't tank & spank. You have more options available than most MMOs, have to move around constantly in a fight and you have to react as quickly or faster than most MMOs. To interupt spells you have less than a second sometimes to react. That actually takes skill to recognize the spell and than counter it in less than a second. Of course you don't need to this against someone who doesn't know how to play, but beating a newbie doesn't mean YOU know how to play. Standing around in AV shooting fireball all day long, running out of mana, then suiciding on the nearest enemy doesn't mean you know how to PvP.
Nobody dissagrees that WOW is easy to pick up and play. Its by design. Its easy to understand because its designed properly. No MMO should be complex for the hell of it. Blizzard could've easily made anything overly complicated and a pain in the a$$ to learn if they wanted, but thats not how your design a fun MMO. That's what separtes good game designers from bad game designers. Anyone can make a game tedious and complicated. Just don't bother explaining how anything works, throw in random, uncontrollable elements, don't bother fixing bugs, make everything take 10X longer to accomplish than it should and you've instantly made your game "difficult". Is it difficult or just tedious as hell?
Soloing on a PvE server in WOW can be easy. Soloing on a PvP server can be kinda hard at times. BGs can also be easy, but they can also be difficult if both sides actually want to win. WOW is still just as complex as any MMO out there when you get to end-game dungeons and arena PvP. The rest of the game seems easier because its designed in such a way that seems natural and intuitive. WOW has easy parts and hard parts. Denying that excludes you from the discussion due to sheer ignorance.
Eve is quite easy to play when it comes down to it. You can log on when you have to, follow an FAQ over the next 5 months and train all the correct skills. Then you can get a Corp member to give you all the ISK you need buy a ship, add ons, ammo, ect.. Then you can travel along with 50 other friends and PvP in relative immunity from any harm. If you have unlimited ISK, Eve is a joke to play because ISK buys you anything you want once you spent the months training the skills. Training skills in Eve is as simple as it gets. You don't even have to acrtually play at all. Eve CAN be very easy or very hard, just like WOW can be very easy or very hard. One is just a lot more untuitive than the other.
Quests told you where to go in DAOC long before WoW was even a rumor. Crafting as you described it is almost exactly the same in every fantasy MMO out. I will even go further to say that combat mechanics have not changed significantly in ten years.
Why is WoW so much easier than these other games? I just cannot buy into that because the quests do the same thing other games have been doing for years, the crafting is pretty much the same and combat has not changed since EQ.
With very few exceptions I cannot honestly say that the mechanics in any MMO has challenged me since UO/EQ years. I hear all these people talk about how easy WoW is, but I never hear compared to what? I've tried the other games and they are no more difficult save for dealing with bad game design or unnecessary time sinks in place of real content. There are a few things here and there, but the converse it just as true.
Just off the top of my head, crafting in SWG was beyond excellent with many intricate challenges from managing resource inventory and quality, competing with other merchants and actually knowing how to make quality items. WoW dugeons and raids have been top notch compared to anything in a long long time. Well written, entertaining and challenging. PvP in Guild Wars and to a lesser extent SWG (minus the completely broken system), because there was some mystery as to what skills your opponent could use.
Honestly I find most of this easy/hard talk to be deceptive and dishonest. Is there really a fantasy MMO in the last half dozen years that has actually been hard? People like to spew that WoW is so easy, but what other game is it being compared to that is so hard, timesinks aside I can't think of one that offers any real challenge that isn't cookie cutter to the next. As far as I can tell the whole fantasy market has just been a whole lot of the same thing over and over. I don't understand why people can suddenly find that harder than it already was.
Didn't play EQ. Older MMOs weren't spoonfed nearly the same as WoW. WoW's popularity comes from how ridiculously easy the game is in my opinion. So mouthbreathers can enjoy an MMO. I played WoW for along time so I'm not trying to downplay it's entertainment value, but compared to any kind of game out there I found WoW to be the most spoonfed of all of them.
Virtually everything in WoW is spoonfed to you and so simplistic an 11 year old could learn it in minutes.
I guess it comes down to what parts of the game are easy. To Me everything in WoW was simple to pick up and do. Crafting was just clicking on a node here and there. I think a big reason WoW was a lot easier were all the helper websites that basically led you around. Older MMOs I basically learned the game thru trial and error. Which I somewhat enjoy doing.
Another thing about WoW is it's simply time invested. Yes, I know all MMOs are, but other MMOs have death penalties and a steeper learning curve. If you think you're a skilled WoW player, you're wrong. There's no such thing. 10 year old bobby quested his way up to 70 not much slower then you did. And now he's in epics that has his character looking exactly like yours.
Harder MMOs - UO, Eve, well pretty much every MMO I've ever played was harder to pick up and learn then WoW.
Learning how to play EvE isn't rocket science, but saying that WoW is just as hard makes me think you are an idiot. If your missles are out of range in eve there isnt a big booming voice that comes out of no where saying "YOU ARE OUT OF RANGE BY CALCULATING THE MISSLES AND YOUR SKILLS THOSE CAN ONLY SHOOT UP TO 0-43km" and prevents you from firing, no your missles fire and they die before they hit the target, plus you have to do all the calculations youself. Now while basic multiplication isn't hard, the learning curve is still harder than WoW and WoW tells you how everything works.
Plus the way fitting a ship works is way more complicated than gearing a character in wow. Once you know what stats you need, you just stack them and you will be fine even through end game. Plus most of it is common sense. (hmm the big bulky warrior probably uses strength and swords and the magic uses uses intellect and wands).
Seems to me, Josher is the only one MAKING points in this argument. Taliasin is tossing out generalizations with no specifics. And yes, I agree with Josher. The gameplay in WoW is at least as challenging as other games. They have removed tedium and timesinks -- not the same as "dumbing it down."
Since Josher is/was quoting my messages, one would expect that he had something to say about the comments made in those messages. Instead the responses were all to things Josher himself made. No points for talking to ones self. Just for a few specifics, here are a few games I have played/beta tested, and for the OVERALL game play they tended to be more challenging: Aardwolf, Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Dark and Light, DragonRealms, Dragons Gate, Dungeon Runners, Dungeons & Dragons Online, Earth & Beyond, Endless Ages, EverQuest, EverQuest II, Final Fantasy XI, Furcadia, Guild Wars, Horizons: Empires of Istaria, Irth Worlds, Knight Online, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Materia Magica, Meridian 59, Minions of Mirth, PlaneShift, Realms of Despair, Rubies of Eventide, Ryzom, Second Life, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Ultima Online, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Wish, World of Warcraft This is, again, talking about the overall game play not single items/encounters. WoW is still an easy game in comparision to others of its ilk (Comparing it to something like Second Life would not be real meaningful.) I have PvE/PvP/RvR/Solo'd/Been leader of successful Groups/Raids/Guilds and still find WoW the least challenging. If you define what makes a game "hard" then maybe you could get answers more to your liking but until then the simplistic game play, lack of challenge, and "handholding" design make WoW the easiest to learn and master of the games I have played.
I guess I just don't consider broken game mechanics or a lack of proper instructions that make a game tedious or overly complicated to understand as something difficult. its ONLY difficult because the developer didn't know how to streamline the game mechanics properly. I just call it badly designed, because most MMOs if they were actually tested thoroughly and BALANCED, they wouldn't be difficult at all.
What broken game mechanics? Where does this come from? Something to support a point not yet made?
Besides, you again ignored my main point. WOW is easy but its also quite difficult. Show me a boss FAQ from another MMO that equals or comes close to the complexity of some of WOW's high end bosses. Please explain how the game holds your hand when you're taking on the 4 Horseman for example? Please explain how simple it is to rank in the top 10 in the arenas? If its so simple everyone could do it. If the high end raids were so simple everyone could do those as well. You can spend 1000 hrs doing those raids but it doesn't matter unless you do them correctly. Most people give up because they're simply too hard. You can't just print up an FAQ and magically win. You have to actually execute the strategies and it ain't easy at 1st. Anyone who says it is is lying.
Not ignoring your "point" just stating the fact that compared to other games WoW is easy, not comparing the realitive skills of the individual players. Some players will put more effort into any game and do better than those that don't. That does not change the degree of difficulty a game has.
WOW's battle system is actually about as complex as it gets for a MMO when played against other players that actually know what they're doing or against bosses that aren't tank & spank. You have more options available than most MMOs, have to move around constantly in a fight and you have to react as quickly or faster than most MMOs. To interupt spells you have less than a second sometimes to react. That actually takes skill to recognize the spell and than counter it in less than a second. Of course you don't need to this against someone who doesn't know how to play, but beating a newbie doesn't mean YOU know how to play. Standing around in AV shooting fireball all day long, running out of mana, then suiciding on the nearest enemy doesn't mean you know how to PvP.
If this is the play style you are use to, you may want to try learning a new way to play, or find a new group.
Nobody dissagrees that WOW is easy to pick up and play. Its by design. Its easy to understand because its designed properly. No MMO should be complex for the hell of it. Blizzard could've easily made anything overly complicated and a pain in the a$$ to learn if they wanted, but thats not how your design a fun MMO. That's what separtes good game designers from bad game designers. Anyone can make a game tedious and complicated. Just don't bother explaining how anything works, throw in random, uncontrollable elements, don't bother fixing bugs, make everything take 10X longer to accomplish than it should and you've instantly made your game "difficult". Is it difficult or just tedious as hell?
And this makes WoW more challenging how? Easy to learn and easy to master. Yes, there are poorly designed games out there, but I don't consider them "hard", just poorly designed. Someone else's poor design does not make WoW "harder".
Soloing on a PvE server in WOW can be easy. Soloing on a PvP server can be kinda hard at times. BGs can also be easy, but they can also be difficult if both sides actually want to win. WOW is still just as complex as any MMO out there when you get to end-game dungeons and arena PvP. The rest of the game seems easier because its designed in such a way that seems natural and intuitive. WOW has easy parts and hard parts. Denying that excludes you from the discussion due to sheer ignorance.
Having been raid leader in WoW and other games, I know from first hand experience that WoW is the easier of the lot.
Eve is quite easy to play when it comes down to it. You can log on when you have to, follow an FAQ over the next 5 months and train all the correct skills. Then you can get a Corp member to give you all the ISK you need buy a ship, add ons, ammo, ect.. Then you can travel along with 50 other friends and PvP in relative immunity from any harm. If you have unlimited ISK, Eve is a joke to play because ISK buys you anything you want once you spent the months training the skills. Training skills in Eve is as simple as it gets. You don't even have to acrtually play at all. Eve CAN be very easy or very hard, just like WOW can be very easy or very hard. One is just a lot more untuitive than the other.
Never played EVE so I can not say how it compares to any other game. Have played WoW and can say that it requires less thought, less skill, and less effort than most.
Didn't play EQ. Older MMOs weren't spoonfed nearly the same as WoW. WoW's popularity comes from how ridiculously easy the game is in my opinion. So mouthbreathers can enjoy an MMO. I played WoW for along time so I'm not trying to downplay it's entertainment value, but compared to any kind of game out there I found WoW to be the most spoonfed of all of them.
Virtually everything in WoW is spoonfed to you and so simplistic an 11 year old could learn it in minutes. I guess it comes down to what parts of the game are easy. To Me everything in WoW was simple to pick up and do. Crafting was just clicking on a node here and there. I think a big reason WoW was a lot easier were all the helper websites that basically led you around. Older MMOs I basically learned the game thru trial and error. Which I somewhat enjoy doing.
Another thing about WoW is it's simply time invested. Yes, I know all MMOs are, but other MMOs have death penalties and a steeper learning curve. If you think you're a skilled WoW player, you're wrong. There's no such thing. 10 year old bobby quested his way up to 70 not much slower then you did. And now he's in epics that has his character looking exactly like yours. Harder MMOs - UO, Eve, well pretty much every MMO I've ever played was harder to pick up and learn then WoW.
So everyone who plays WoW is a mouthbreathing 12 year old and that is why you think it is easy? Insulting the people who play a game doesn't really validate your opinion or give valid reasons why you think it is easier than "every" MMO out.
What is spoonfed? Quests point a direction just like many other MMOs. Some of those MMOs actually put waypoints on your map of where to go. The UI and basic gameplay elements are easy to understand and don't require a 3rd party site to explain. The game is easy to pick up and learn, that is by design. Confusing UIs and mechanics that are not explained don't make a game hard, it just means the game was poorly written.
You seem to think that 10 year old Bobby couldn't do the same exact thing in say EQ2 for example, because he might not be able to solo in that game, but can solo in WoW? He might not be able to do dungeons in that game. but can in WoW? He won't be able to recover from a steeper death penalty by just spending more time recouping lost XP or gold? If Bobbi gets the basic concepts of gameplay in WoW, I'm fairly certain he can do the same exact thing in any other fantasy MMO. If he sucks in WoW I'm certain he will equally suck in another game. NOTE: I am not picking on EQ2, but I needed an example. You just don't give any examples of what you consider harder gameplay, but spend plenty of time saying how easy WoW is.
What exactly is so much harder or not spoonfed in other games, aside from longer time grinds?
Seems to me, Josher is the only one MAKING points in this argument. Taliasin is tossing out generalizations with no specifics. And yes, I agree with Josher. The gameplay in WoW is at least as challenging as other games. They have removed tedium and timesinks -- not the same as "dumbing it down."
So correct.
You can play Wow just as easy and just as hard as you like.
Most who post here didn't even down Gruul or Magtheridon, let alone Illidan. (5%), so Wow lets you waythe easy solo play, or the BG play, or the Arena play, or the normal dungeon play, or the heroics dungeons or the small raids (10 people) or the Largers raids (25 people).
So it is NOT because you can choose HOW to play this jewell, that it is easy.
If you say Wow is easy, it means you only have played it on the "easy" level, meaning you didn't play very well.
Since I'm pretty sure you never grouped with me in WoW, you have no idea how I played - good or bad. While in the approriate level range, I and a group of 3 other like leveled players went into a 10 person instance and were able to clear the entire instance, save for the final boss. And only took 2 tries and 1 death each to do this. Just to give an idea of how very well I played. Easy to learn and easy to master is WoW.
We did start taking groups into instance at levels lower than the dungeons were rated, until the game would not let us enter, saying we were to low a level. The entire group was not allowed due to being low level. So the game was designed to keep us seeking challenges.
Seems to me, Josher is the only one MAKING points in this argument. Taliasin is tossing out generalizations with no specifics. And yes, I agree with Josher. The gameplay in WoW is at least as challenging as other games. They have removed tedium and timesinks -- not the same as "dumbing it down."
So correct.
You can play Wow just as easy and just as hard as you like.
Most who post here didn't even down Gruul or Magtheridon, let alone Illidan. (5%), so Wow lets you waythe easy solo play, or the BG play, or the Arena play, or the normal dungeon play, or the heroics dungeons or the small raids (10 people) or the Largers raids (25 people).
So it is NOT because you can choose HOW to play this jewell, that it is easy.
If you say Wow is easy, it means you only have played it on the "easy" level, meaning you didn't play very well.
Since I'm pretty sure you never grouped with me in WoW, you have no idea how I played - good or bad. While in the approriate level range, I and a group of 3 other like leveled players went into a 10 person instance and were able to clear the entire instance, save for the final boss. And only took 2 tries and 1 death each to do this. Just to give an idea of how very well I played. Easy to learn and easy to master is WoW.
We did start taking groups into instance at levels lower than the dungeons were rated, until the game would not let us enter, saying we were to low a level. The entire group was not allowed due to being low level. So the game was designed to keep us seeking challenges.
LMAO dude you need to get outta here with that crap.
You post on youtube, YOU and 3 other guys running a 10 man and downing the bosses completing it.
THEN I will believe you, I call BS on 4 people running a 10 man and finishing it.
Unless you mean ZG which is a level 60 ten man. Then ok. I would believe it. At the same time your entire argument would be void because you would have 4 levels 70's taking on a dungeon designed for 10 level 60's. This isn't exactly a hard feat to accomplish.
You show me a video of you and 3 buddies busting out Karazhan or Zul'Aman which is a level 70 ten man.
Not only are you 4 the best geared and most bad ass players in WoW but you truly would earn the right to say "WoW is easy!"
Until then, just hush you just spouting out the BS.
Didn't play EQ. Older MMOs weren't spoonfed nearly the same as WoW. WoW's popularity comes from how ridiculously easy the game is in my opinion. So mouthbreathers can enjoy an MMO. I played WoW for along time so I'm not trying to downplay it's entertainment value, but compared to any kind of game out there I found WoW to be the most spoonfed of all of them.
Virtually everything in WoW is spoonfed to you and so simplistic an 11 year old could learn it in minutes. I guess it comes down to what parts of the game are easy. To Me everything in WoW was simple to pick up and do. Crafting was just clicking on a node here and there. I think a big reason WoW was a lot easier were all the helper websites that basically led you around. Older MMOs I basically learned the game thru trial and error. Which I somewhat enjoy doing.
Another thing about WoW is it's simply time invested. Yes, I know all MMOs are, but other MMOs have death penalties and a steeper learning curve. If you think you're a skilled WoW player, you're wrong. There's no such thing. 10 year old bobby quested his way up to 70 not much slower then you did. And now he's in epics that has his character looking exactly like yours. Harder MMOs - UO, Eve, well pretty much every MMO I've ever played was harder to pick up and learn then WoW.
So everyone who plays WoW is a mouthbreathing 12 year old and that is why you think it is easy? Insulting the people who play a game doesn't really validate your opinion or give valid reasons why you think it is easier than "every" MMO out.
What is spoonfed? Quests point a direction just like many other MMOs. Some of those MMOs actually put waypoints on your map of where to go. The UI and basic gameplay elements are easy to understand and don't require a 3rd party site to explain. The game is easy to pick up and learn, that is by design. Confusing UIs and mechanics that are not explained don't make a game hard, it just means the game was poorly written.
You seem to think that 10 year old Bobby couldn't do the same exact thing in say EQ2 for example, because he might not be able to solo in that game, but can solo in WoW? He might not be able to do dungeons in that game. but can in WoW? He won't be able to recover from a steeper death penalty by just spending more time recouping lost XP or gold? If Bobbi gets the basic concepts of gameplay in WoW, I'm fairly certain he can do the same exact thing in any other fantasy MMO. If he sucks in WoW I'm certain he will equally suck in another game. NOTE: I am not picking on EQ2, but I needed an example. You just don't give any examples of what you consider harder gameplay, but spend plenty of time saying how easy WoW is.
What exactly is so much harder or not spoonfed in other games, aside from longer time grinds?
Something that I would like you to consider, a UI can be very well designed but remain complex while another can well designed and simplistic. Things that are complex are normally considered "hard" when compared to the simple one. This does not make either poorly designed or broken, just one "harder" than the other. The reason for the complexity may be due to give a wider range of options and/or finer control, but that does not really matter. Due to the nature of complex things, they tend to demand more time/effort, so they tend to take longer because they are "harder", not "harder" because they take longer. This is just the nature of the complexity, not always a timesink. But then that is all any MMO is, a giant timesink.
Seems to me, Josher is the only one MAKING points in this argument. Taliasin is tossing out generalizations with no specifics. And yes, I agree with Josher. The gameplay in WoW is at least as challenging as other games. They have removed tedium and timesinks -- not the same as "dumbing it down."
So correct.
You can play Wow just as easy and just as hard as you like.
Most who post here didn't even down Gruul or Magtheridon, let alone Illidan. (5%), so Wow lets you waythe easy solo play, or the BG play, or the Arena play, or the normal dungeon play, or the heroics dungeons or the small raids (10 people) or the Largers raids (25 people).
So it is NOT because you can choose HOW to play this jewell, that it is easy.
If you say Wow is easy, it means you only have played it on the "easy" level, meaning you didn't play very well.
Since I'm pretty sure you never grouped with me in WoW, you have no idea how I played - good or bad. While in the approriate level range, I and a group of 3 other like leveled players went into a 10 person instance and were able to clear the entire instance, save for the final boss. And only took 2 tries and 1 death each to do this. Just to give an idea of how very well I played. Easy to learn and easy to master is WoW.
We did start taking groups into instance at levels lower than the dungeons were rated, until the game would not let us enter, saying we were to low a level. The entire group was not allowed due to being low level. So the game was designed to keep us seeking challenges.
LMAO dude you need to get outta here with that crap.
You post on youtube, YOU and 3 other guys running a 10 man and downing the bosses completing it.
THEN I will believe you, I call BS on 4 people running a 10 man and finishing it.
Unless you mean ZG which is a level 60 ten man. Then ok. I would believe it. At the same time your entire argument would be void because you would have 4 levels 70's taking on a dungeon designed for 10 level 60's. This isn't exactly a hard feat to accomplish.
You show me a video of you and 3 buddies busting out Karazhan or Zul'Aman which is a level 70 ten man.
Not only are you 4 the best geared and most bad ass players in WoW but you truly would earn the right to say "WoW is easy!"
Until then, just hush you just spouting out the BS.
"While in the approriate level range," - you missed something. "clear the entire instance, save for the final boss." - you missed this too.
i found this topic funny... seems like you have been only playing WoW for an long while.. and maybe,.. just maybe tested other p2p games.. since WoW truly is easy.. with capital E
1st of all.. interface is very easy to learn.. as there isnt actually too much stuff there
2nd yes.. lvling was easy before.. and its even easier now that they boosted exp till 60
3rd getting 5x lv70's with pvp gear isnt actually challenging these days in TBC.. you just sit back for 8hrs smacking some nab asses up in BGs/arena daily.. time sinking:Yes.. hard:No
try lets say FFXI for a change.. now that has much more harder interface system//lvling//getting geared for/in EG + it takes ages more to get to actual EG and start raiding.. now in WoW you can do it in few weeks with extra xp boost to 60 + most of those attunements were taken off.. gg.. wow hard nowadays
now this was just an example.. pointing something out.. those that actually have experienced FFXI // WoW gaming.. knows what i talk about.. wow.. is easy
I'm busting right out the creases, fuck your white jesus.. you're blinded by the light of deceivers and disbelievers the real truth right in front of you i am everyone and none of you..
"While in the approriate level range," - you missed something. "clear the entire instance, save for the final boss." - you missed this too.
OK so your talking about some low level crap. Ill give it to you in much more simple terms.
I don't care what 10 man dungeon you entered. Old world or Outland. If it were a level 60 ten man or a 70 ten man.
If you went in a 60 ten man, with only 4 60's you didn't make it to the last boss.
If you went in a 70 ten man, with only 4 70's you didn't even make it close to the last boss.
Now I already know you didn't do ANY 10 man in Outland with 4 level 70's. So I won't even bother to post the dungeons there.
BUT
These 4 used to be 10 man with appropriate levels listed. IF you went in these with only 4 people at the appropriate level it suggest you would get destroyed. I might believe you did these 4 with 4 level 60 characters but not 4 of the levels listed. These levels next to the names are there for a reason. It simply means for a good chance at making it out the other side of this instance you need 10 players in this range. So unless you show me a video of lets say you and 3 buddies all level 45 making it to the last boss of Zul'Farrak, I call BS.
Uldaman - 39 - 47
Zul'Farrak - 43 - 47
Maraudon - 43 - 49
Sunken Temple - 49 - 55
These 2 used to be 10 man with appropriate levels listed. IF you went in these with only 4 people at the appropriate level it suggest you would get destroyed. I might believe you did these 2 with 4 level 70 characters but not 4 of the levels listed. These levels next to the names are there for a reason. It simply means for a good chance at making it out the other side of this instance you need 10 players in this range. So unless you show me a video of lets say you and 3 buddies all level 59 making it to the last boss of Dire Maul, I call BS.
Blackrock Mountains - 58 - 60
Dire Maul - 58 - 60
So yeah I raise the BS flag on what you say. I also raise the BS flag on anyone who puts the time into wow and gets to the real end-game - Black Temple, Karazhan, Sunwell, The Eye, Mt. Hyjal and says they are "easy". It is BS and they know it.
Getting to the end game in wow is not easy no matter how you look at it and is that the games fault nope its the comunity. People are to lazy and are not willing to put the work in to get to end game. 99% of guilds dont even make it past kara because they are nto willing to put the work into progress they exspect everythign to happen overnight. Then thare are guild hoppers if some1 falls out with someone in a guild first thing they always seem to do is /gquit and not be mature enough to sort the problems out withing the guild.If you get the right balance of people withing a guild and they raid the game can become easy but this very rarely happens becuase the comunity on wow sucks its to childish and lazy.
Getting to the end game in wow is not easy no matter how you look at it and is that the games fault nope its the comunity. People are to lazy and are not willing to put the work in to get to end game. 99% of guilds dont even make it past kara because they are nto willing to put the work into progress they exspect everythign to happen overnight. Then thare are guild hoppers if some1 falls out with someone in a guild first thing they always seem to do is /gquit and not be mature enough to sort the problems out withing the guild.If you get the right balance of people withing a guild and they raid the game can become easy but this very rarely happens becuase the comunity on wow sucks its to childish and lazy.
QFT
this I will agree with, it is a much more factual based post about the state of "wow in easy mode".
People who post "wow is easy" never put in the work to get to a challenge, they run Zul'Farrak at level 70 and say OHHHH! Easy..... yeah it is, now get yourself in a level 70 raiding guild and fight Illidan. OOOOOH! owned!
I have played a lot of MUDs/MUSHs/MOOs/MMOs/MMORPGs over the years and of all that I have played WoW was the easiest to learn, easiest to master, easiest crafting, and required the least amount to tactical/strategic thinking/skill. So, in comparison to all the other games I have played, WoW is easy.
QFT
The funny thing is WoW is so obviously easy compared to other MMOs, I'm surprised there's argument.
Someone talkin about making it to 70 "not being easy" It's ridiculously easy just time consuming.
So everyone who plays WoW is a mouthbreathing 12 year old and that is why you think it is easy? Insulting the people who play a game doesn't really validate your opinion or give valid reasons why you think it is easier than "every" MMO out. Not Exactly what I was trying to get across. Just pointing out that you're probably geared up and leveled the exact same as said mouthbreather and probably did it in the same amount of time.
What is spoonfed? Quests point a direction just like many other MMOs. Some of those MMOs actually put waypoints on your map of where to go. The UI and basic gameplay elements are easy to understand and don't require a 3rd party site to explain. The game is easy to pick up and learn, that is by design. Confusing UIs and mechanics that are not explained don't make a game hard, it just means the game was poorly written. [/quote] Take UO. Did you know what you were doing when you stepped foot in that game or where you were going? You seem to think that 10 year old Bobby couldn't do the same exact thing in say EQ2 for example, because he might not be able to solo in that game, but can solo in WoW? He might not be able to do dungeons in that game. but can in WoW? He won't be able to recover from a steeper death penalty by just spending more time recouping lost XP or gold? If Bobbi gets the basic concepts of gameplay in WoW, I'm fairly certain he can do the same exact thing in any other fantasy MMO. If he sucks in WoW I'm certain he will equally suck in another game. NOTE: I am not picking on EQ2, but I needed an example. You just don't give any examples of what you consider harder gameplay, but spend plenty of time saying how easy WoW is. What exactly is so much harder or not spoonfed in other games, aside from longer time grinds?
10 year old Bobby would mostly take 3 times the amount of time doing it in another game. WoW is designed to be easy. That's why it's popular. There's not much of a learning curve at all. If you're skilled in the game it really make no difference in-game.
You can suck at another game, and do just fine in WoW, that's why it's popular.
Have you played any other MMOs besides WoW? If so, I find it hard to believe you'd be asking this question about what is harder.
Another thing to consider is how quickly people are hitting lvl 70 nowadays and how fast they will be hitting lvl 80.
Yes I've been playing MMOs for a long time now and WoW certainly isn't my first game.
It doesn't make it any harder because it takes Bobby 3 times as long to reach a goal in game A vs game B. There is no skill that is required to play for more time to achieve the same goal, just patience. Really what is the magic number of hours to reach max level when a game goes from easy to hard? Is it 50 hours? 500 hours? 5,000 hours? When does someone get more skilled at MMOs, after the 50th hour, 500th, 5,000th? Time isn't a measurement of challenge or skill in MMOs.
If you suck in another MMO, odds are you suck just as much in WoW. Any mutt can solo to max level in more games than I care to mention, the same applies to grouping to get to max. Unless you think there is some mythical game out there where idiots are somehow weeded out before max level and never infest raids and dungeons? It isn't like dumb people somehow learn to not break CC and wipe raids just by logging into WoW is it? Bosses just don't walk up and die to unskilled players and hand them epics.
You still haven't said what makes other games so much harder to play than WoW other than time commitment. Other than lamenting how easy WoW is your not saying much of substance.
Already have post some comparison with car industry in other topic, I think its exactly the same in the MMO market:
Lets say that WoW is "Best CAR of the year - Its cheap, practical, best car for money if you want to drive from point A to point B". If you like racing theres Ferrari, if you want offroad theres Jeep. Best Car of the year cannot give you anything special so you cannot do anything wrong - theres just not freedom to do big mistakes.
There are some missings that make WoW more easy than some other games:
1. There's no PK - you always know your enemy - its opposite Faction.
2. Dungeons are instanced so no PvE & PvP mixed content.
3. Most of the game you can play solo.
Thats the reason for the big success of the WoW and and also the why many old school MMO players run away from it.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
The obvious answer is the same answer that has made this game such a success - its hard and it's easy.
WoW is pretty much anything you are looking for, which is why 10 million people can play it and each of them gets something (often something very different) out of it.
Is it easy to level up? Yes, but at the same time you can also take the "scenic route" if you want and slow things down.
Is it easy to learn your class abilities? Yes.
Is it easy to get adequate gear for your character? Yes.
Is it easy to do five man instances with the appropriate level group? Yes. (Well usually)
However...there's another side to look at too.
Is it easy to master your class abilities? Absolutely not. Pressing 1,2,3,4 is indeed pretty simple, but when faced with real challenges you quickly learn that there's more to playing any given class than that.
Is it easy to get the best of the best gear for your character? Absolutely not. Raid gear takes a lot of time to get and crafting is a big investment of time as well.
Is it easy to made it through end game content? Absolutely not. It takes the most coordinated and skilled guilds months to beat end game content and most people dont even see it at all.
Lastly I would like to point out that anyone saying WoW is low on strategy is completely mistaken. I have played many MMOs and in most of them fighting a group of enemies requires very little by way of strategy. WoW is the only game I've played where appropriately geared characters going against an appropriate level dungeon have to use specific strategies for EVERY pull. Go play CoX, DDO, TR, or any number of other MMOs where strategy is a plus, but if you just pull a bunch of random mobs its really not that big of a deal. Then play WoW, where a botched pull means party wipe. Played seriously, WoW is anything but easy.
Yes I've been playing MMOs for a long time now and WoW certainly isn't my first game. It doesn't make it any harder because it takes Bobby 3 times as long to reach a goal in game A vs game B. I disagree, there was an obvious reason it took 3 time longer. There is no skill that is required to play for more time to achieve the same goal, just patience. Really what is the magic number of hours to reach max level when a game goes from easy to hard? Is it 50 hours? 500 hours? 5,000 hours? When does someone get more skilled at MMOs, after the 50th hour, 500th, 5,000th? Time isn't a measurement of challenge or skill in MMOs. Skill ? maybe not in leveling. But there are varying levels of difficulty. And some can make the goal quicker due to being better at the game. This is absent in WoW imo.
If you suck in another MMO, odds are you suck just as much in WoW. Any mutt can solo to max level in more games than I care to mention, the same applies to grouping to get to max. Unless you think there is some mythical game out there where idiots are somehow weeded out before max level and never infest raids and dungeons? It isn't like dumb people somehow learn to not break CC and wipe raids just by logging into WoW is it? Bosses just don't walk up and die to unskilled players and hand them epics.
You still haven't said what makes other games so much harder to play than WoW other than time commitment. Other than lamenting how easy WoW is your not saying much of substance. I've pointed out how spoonfed the game is and there's really not much of an argument i need. Drop in to Eve Online and tell me it's just as easy as WoW. You'll be lying to yourself. It's harder to learn some games hence other game are more difficult to pick up and play. Everything from crafting to pvp is easy in this game. You don't need to learn much. Any 8 year old with downs can install WoW and hit 70 np. I don't find this in other MMOs. We're going in circles. It's my opinion that WoW is a good game, but obviously the easiest on the market and that's what makes it popular. It sucks you in and once you have time investment behind you, you're reluctant to leave. What sets WoW aside is how it's design can suck in the youngest of players and the oldest alike due to it's good UI and spoonfed gameplay.
I disagree, there was an obvious reason it took 3 time longer.
Yes it is obvious, time and nothing else. Bobs' friend Fred is playing another MMO right next to him. They both play for 5 hours killing orcs, gathering resources, etc in their respective games. Can Fred really look at Bob and say his gameplay was much harder, because TOMORROW he will have to do it all over again.
Ask a factory assembly line worker with 15+ years experience if their job keeps getting more difficult after doing it for so long or if it just gets boring after a while. Repeating the same task according to some in this thread must increase challenge and difficulty factor right?
Eve is a completely different game than Fantasy MMOs, which is why I keep saying fantasy MMOs. I've only tried the trial of Eve, but when the ship started flying itself I stopped playing. Sort of an apples and oranges comparison to be honest. Kudos to Eve for not following the typical EQ MMO formula that just about every FANTASY mmo has done for years.
Again, you say WoW is spoonfed and other games are harder, but never really point out the WHY of your opinion. What little you have said exists in every other MMOs almost cut/paste which is why you point isn't really valid other than generalizing everyone who plays WoW as if all 10 million people are clones incapable of playing other MMOs. I'll just chalk you up as someone who needs to put everyone else down to make your opinion seem worthy. Cheers.
For myself, I have not found any MMO that really stands out as challenging anymore. They all pretty much play the exact same way. I find it ridiculous for people who want to think they play harder or more skilled games just because they pour more time into playing a game.
I don't play WoW currently, and likely never will again. I happen the think the end game sucks balls. However, it bugs me to see players thinking that they are somehow "more elite gamers" because they are willing to put up with piss poor game design. Does anyone really want to go back to the days of human characters going blind at night, losing levels on death, or quest givers that don't even tell you what continent to look in (let alone what zone)? I know I sure was hell don't.
WoW is simpler than a many MMOs in some ways (the crafting comes to mind). But anyone that thinks the class designs, combat, and raid encounters are any simpler than an average class based MMO is completely deluded. Does anyone in their right mind really believe that a high level WoW Druid is a less complex character to master than an EQ Warrier or a DAoC bolt caster?
And "anyone can get to 70" in WoW is a stupid argument. You can solo your way to the cap in any level based MMO if you have the patience to. Just because it's boring as hell and takes 2000 hours to do does not make it "harder." It just makes it less likely that a sane employed human would choose to.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I disagree, there was an obvious reason it took 3 time longer.
Yes it is obvious, time and nothing else. Bobs' friend Fred is playing another MMO right next to him. They both play for 5 hours killing orcs, gathering resources, etc in their respective games. Can Fred really look at Bob and say his gameplay was much harder, because TOMORROW he will have to do it all over again.
Correct it was harder for bobby to achieve the same goal in the same amount of time = harder game compared to easier game. Ask a factory assembly line worker with 15+ years experience if their job keeps getting more difficult after doing it for so long or if it just gets boring after a while. Repeating the same task according to some in this thread must increase challenge and difficulty factor right? These comparisons aren't valid. It comes down to WoW being simple to learn, a good UI, and overall easier game. Time is involved, but things tend to take longer when it's more difficult to do.
Eve is a completely different game than Fantasy MMOs, which is why I keep saying fantasy MMOs. I've only tried the trial of Eve, but when the ship started flying itself I stopped playing. Sort of an apples and oranges comparison to be honest. Kudos to Eve for not following the typical EQ MMO formula that just about every FANTASY mmo has done for years. Eve is a perfect example regardless of the genre. It's a much harder game and doesn't completely spoonfeed you your way to endgame. Again, you say WoW is spoonfed and other games are harder, but never really point out the WHY of your opinion. What little you have said exists in every other MMOs almost cut/paste which is why you point isn't really valid other than generalizing everyone who plays WoW as if all 10 million people are clones incapable of playing other MMOs. I'll just chalk you up as someone who needs to put everyone else down to make your opinion seem worthy. Cheers. What's there to point out to you? From the quests, to the crafting system, to getting into a pvp fight everything is easy in this game. Nothing is hard. It's learned within minutes if it even has to be learned. No research needs to go into playing WoW, nothing. You can pick up WoW level up to 70 within a couple weeks. Simple and EASY. I find other games have steeper learning curves. The actual gameplay in most are easy. I can agree, but WoW overall in every aspect is easier. For myself, I have not found any MMO that really stands out as challenging anymore. They all pretty much play the exact same way. I find it ridiculous for people who want to think they play harder or more skilled games just because they pour more time into playing a game.
There's games that are more challenging to learn and require a little more research to learn what to do and how. Eve, UO, many other MMOs are harder in this way. I don't think this is going anywhere really since we have differing opinion on what's easy and what's not. We can leave it at WoW is easy imo, and you find 0 games not challenging at all.
Comments
Since Josher is/was quoting my messages, one would expect that he had something to say about the comments made in those messages. Instead the responses were all to things Josher himself made. No points for talking to ones self.
Just for a few specifics, here are a few games I have played/beta tested, and for the OVERALL game play they tended to be more challenging:
Aardwolf,
Anarchy Online,
Asheron's Call,
Asheron's Call 2,
Dark Age of Camelot,
Dark and Light,
DragonRealms,
Dragons Gate,
Dungeon Runners,
Dungeons & Dragons Online,
Earth & Beyond,
Endless Ages,
EverQuest,
EverQuest II,
Final Fantasy XI,
Furcadia,
Guild Wars,
Horizons: Empires of Istaria,
Irth Worlds,
Knight Online,
Lineage 2,
Lord of the Rings Online,
Materia Magica,
Meridian 59,
Minions of Mirth,
PlaneShift,
Realms of Despair,
Rubies of Eventide,
Ryzom,
Second Life,
Shadowbane,
Star Wars Galaxies,
Ultima Online,
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes,
Wish,
World of Warcraft
This is, again, talking about the overall game play not single items/encounters. WoW is still an easy game in comparision to others of its ilk (Comparing it to something like Second Life would not be real meaningful.)
I have PvE/PvP/RvR/Solo'd/Been leader of successful Groups/Raids/Guilds and still find WoW the least challenging.
If you define what makes a game "hard" then maybe you could get answers more to your liking but until then the simplistic game play, lack of challenge, and "handholding" design make WoW the easiest to learn and master of the games I have played.
I guess I just don't consider broken game mechanics or a lack of proper instructions that make a game tedious or overly complicated to understand as something difficult. its ONLY difficult because the developer didn't know how to streamline the game mechanics properly. I just call it badly designed, because most MMOs if they were actually tested thoroughly and BALANCED, they wouldn't be difficult at all.
Besides, you again ignored my main point. WOW is easy but its also quite difficult. Show me a boss FAQ from another MMO that equals or comes close to the complexity of some of WOW's high end bosses. Please explain how the game holds your hand when you're taking on the 4 Horseman for example? Please explain how simple it is to rank in the top 10 in the arenas? If its so simple everyone could do it. If the high end raids were so simple everyone could do those as well. You can spend 1000 hrs doing those raids but it doesn't matter unless you do them correctly. Most people give up because they're simply too hard. You can't just print up an FAQ and magically win. You have to actually execute the strategies and it ain't easy at 1st. Anyone who says it is is lying.
WOW's battle system is actually about as complex as it gets for a MMO when played against other players that actually know what they're doing or against bosses that aren't tank & spank. You have more options available than most MMOs, have to move around constantly in a fight and you have to react as quickly or faster than most MMOs. To interupt spells you have less than a second sometimes to react. That actually takes skill to recognize the spell and than counter it in less than a second. Of course you don't need to this against someone who doesn't know how to play, but beating a newbie doesn't mean YOU know how to play. Standing around in AV shooting fireball all day long, running out of mana, then suiciding on the nearest enemy doesn't mean you know how to PvP.
Nobody dissagrees that WOW is easy to pick up and play. Its by design. Its easy to understand because its designed properly. No MMO should be complex for the hell of it. Blizzard could've easily made anything overly complicated and a pain in the a$$ to learn if they wanted, but thats not how your design a fun MMO. That's what separtes good game designers from bad game designers. Anyone can make a game tedious and complicated. Just don't bother explaining how anything works, throw in random, uncontrollable elements, don't bother fixing bugs, make everything take 10X longer to accomplish than it should and you've instantly made your game "difficult". Is it difficult or just tedious as hell?
Soloing on a PvE server in WOW can be easy. Soloing on a PvP server can be kinda hard at times. BGs can also be easy, but they can also be difficult if both sides actually want to win. WOW is still just as complex as any MMO out there when you get to end-game dungeons and arena PvP. The rest of the game seems easier because its designed in such a way that seems natural and intuitive. WOW has easy parts and hard parts. Denying that excludes you from the discussion due to sheer ignorance.
Eve is quite easy to play when it comes down to it. You can log on when you have to, follow an FAQ over the next 5 months and train all the correct skills. Then you can get a Corp member to give you all the ISK you need buy a ship, add ons, ammo, ect.. Then you can travel along with 50 other friends and PvP in relative immunity from any harm. If you have unlimited ISK, Eve is a joke to play because ISK buys you anything you want once you spent the months training the skills. Training skills in Eve is as simple as it gets. You don't even have to acrtually play at all. Eve CAN be very easy or very hard, just like WOW can be very easy or very hard. One is just a lot more untuitive than the other.
Virtually everything in WoW is spoonfed to you and so simplistic an 11 year old could learn it in minutes.
I guess it comes down to what parts of the game are easy. To Me everything in WoW was simple to pick up and do. Crafting was just clicking on a node here and there. I think a big reason WoW was a lot easier were all the helper websites that basically led you around. Older MMOs I basically learned the game thru trial and error. Which I somewhat enjoy doing.
Another thing about WoW is it's simply time invested. Yes, I know all MMOs are, but other MMOs have death penalties and a steeper learning curve. If you think you're a skilled WoW player, you're wrong. There's no such thing. 10 year old bobby quested his way up to 70 not much slower then you did. And now he's in epics that has his character looking exactly like yours.
Harder MMOs - UO, Eve, well pretty much every MMO I've ever played was harder to pick up and learn then WoW.
Learning how to play EvE isn't rocket science, but saying that WoW is just as hard makes me think you are an idiot. If your missles are out of range in eve there isnt a big booming voice that comes out of no where saying "YOU ARE OUT OF RANGE BY CALCULATING THE MISSLES AND YOUR SKILLS THOSE CAN ONLY SHOOT UP TO 0-43km" and prevents you from firing, no your missles fire and they die before they hit the target, plus you have to do all the calculations youself. Now while basic multiplication isn't hard, the learning curve is still harder than WoW and WoW tells you how everything works.
Plus the way fitting a ship works is way more complicated than gearing a character in wow. Once you know what stats you need, you just stack them and you will be fine even through end game. Plus most of it is common sense. (hmm the big bulky warrior probably uses strength and swords and the magic uses uses intellect and wands).
WoW is easy.
I guess I just don't consider broken game mechanics or a lack of proper instructions that make a game tedious or overly complicated to understand as something difficult. its ONLY difficult because the developer didn't know how to streamline the game mechanics properly. I just call it badly designed, because most MMOs if they were actually tested thoroughly and BALANCED, they wouldn't be difficult at all.
Besides, you again ignored my main point. WOW is easy but its also quite difficult. Show me a boss FAQ from another MMO that equals or comes close to the complexity of some of WOW's high end bosses. Please explain how the game holds your hand when you're taking on the 4 Horseman for example? Please explain how simple it is to rank in the top 10 in the arenas? If its so simple everyone could do it. If the high end raids were so simple everyone could do those as well. You can spend 1000 hrs doing those raids but it doesn't matter unless you do them correctly. Most people give up because they're simply too hard. You can't just print up an FAQ and magically win. You have to actually execute the strategies and it ain't easy at 1st. Anyone who says it is is lying.
WOW's battle system is actually about as complex as it gets for a MMO when played against other players that actually know what they're doing or against bosses that aren't tank & spank. You have more options available than most MMOs, have to move around constantly in a fight and you have to react as quickly or faster than most MMOs. To interupt spells you have less than a second sometimes to react. That actually takes skill to recognize the spell and than counter it in less than a second. Of course you don't need to this against someone who doesn't know how to play, but beating a newbie doesn't mean YOU know how to play. Standing around in AV shooting fireball all day long, running out of mana, then suiciding on the nearest enemy doesn't mean you know how to PvP.
Nobody dissagrees that WOW is easy to pick up and play. Its by design. Its easy to understand because its designed properly. No MMO should be complex for the hell of it. Blizzard could've easily made anything overly complicated and a pain in the a$$ to learn if they wanted, but thats not how your design a fun MMO. That's what separtes good game designers from bad game designers. Anyone can make a game tedious and complicated. Just don't bother explaining how anything works, throw in random, uncontrollable elements, don't bother fixing bugs, make everything take 10X longer to accomplish than it should and you've instantly made your game "difficult". Is it difficult or just tedious as hell?
Soloing on a PvE server in WOW can be easy. Soloing on a PvP server can be kinda hard at times. BGs can also be easy, but they can also be difficult if both sides actually want to win. WOW is still just as complex as any MMO out there when you get to end-game dungeons and arena PvP. The rest of the game seems easier because its designed in such a way that seems natural and intuitive. WOW has easy parts and hard parts. Denying that excludes you from the discussion due to sheer ignorance.
Eve is quite easy to play when it comes down to it. You can log on when you have to, follow an FAQ over the next 5 months and train all the correct skills. Then you can get a Corp member to give you all the ISK you need buy a ship, add ons, ammo, ect.. Then you can travel along with 50 other friends and PvP in relative immunity from any harm. If you have unlimited ISK, Eve is a joke to play because ISK buys you anything you want once you spent the months training the skills. Training skills in Eve is as simple as it gets. You don't even have to acrtually play at all. Eve CAN be very easy or very hard, just like WOW can be very easy or very hard. One is just a lot more untuitive than the other.
So everyone who plays WoW is a mouthbreathing 12 year old and that is why you think it is easy? Insulting the people who play a game doesn't really validate your opinion or give valid reasons why you think it is easier than "every" MMO out.
What is spoonfed? Quests point a direction just like many other MMOs. Some of those MMOs actually put waypoints on your map of where to go. The UI and basic gameplay elements are easy to understand and don't require a 3rd party site to explain. The game is easy to pick up and learn, that is by design. Confusing UIs and mechanics that are not explained don't make a game hard, it just means the game was poorly written.
You seem to think that 10 year old Bobby couldn't do the same exact thing in say EQ2 for example, because he might not be able to solo in that game, but can solo in WoW? He might not be able to do dungeons in that game. but can in WoW? He won't be able to recover from a steeper death penalty by just spending more time recouping lost XP or gold? If Bobbi gets the basic concepts of gameplay in WoW, I'm fairly certain he can do the same exact thing in any other fantasy MMO. If he sucks in WoW I'm certain he will equally suck in another game. NOTE: I am not picking on EQ2, but I needed an example. You just don't give any examples of what you consider harder gameplay, but spend plenty of time saying how easy WoW is.
What exactly is so much harder or not spoonfed in other games, aside from longer time grinds?
So correct.
You can play Wow just as easy and just as hard as you like.
Most who post here didn't even down Gruul or Magtheridon, let alone Illidan. (5%), so Wow lets you waythe easy solo play, or the BG play, or the Arena play, or the normal dungeon play, or the heroics dungeons or the small raids (10 people) or the Largers raids (25 people).
So it is NOT because you can choose HOW to play this jewell, that it is easy.
If you say Wow is easy, it means you only have played it on the "easy" level, meaning you didn't play very well.
Since I'm pretty sure you never grouped with me in WoW, you have no idea how I played - good or bad. While in the approriate level range, I and a group of 3 other like leveled players went into a 10 person instance and were able to clear the entire instance, save for the final boss. And only took 2 tries and 1 death each to do this. Just to give an idea of how very well I played. Easy to learn and easy to master is WoW.
We did start taking groups into instance at levels lower than the dungeons were rated, until the game would not let us enter, saying we were to low a level. The entire group was not allowed due to being low level. So the game was designed to keep us seeking challenges.
So correct.
You can play Wow just as easy and just as hard as you like.
Most who post here didn't even down Gruul or Magtheridon, let alone Illidan. (5%), so Wow lets you waythe easy solo play, or the BG play, or the Arena play, or the normal dungeon play, or the heroics dungeons or the small raids (10 people) or the Largers raids (25 people).
So it is NOT because you can choose HOW to play this jewell, that it is easy.
If you say Wow is easy, it means you only have played it on the "easy" level, meaning you didn't play very well.
Since I'm pretty sure you never grouped with me in WoW, you have no idea how I played - good or bad. While in the approriate level range, I and a group of 3 other like leveled players went into a 10 person instance and were able to clear the entire instance, save for the final boss. And only took 2 tries and 1 death each to do this. Just to give an idea of how very well I played. Easy to learn and easy to master is WoW.
We did start taking groups into instance at levels lower than the dungeons were rated, until the game would not let us enter, saying we were to low a level. The entire group was not allowed due to being low level. So the game was designed to keep us seeking challenges.
LMAO dude you need to get outta here with that crap.
You post on youtube, YOU and 3 other guys running a 10 man and downing the bosses completing it.
THEN I will believe you, I call BS on 4 people running a 10 man and finishing it.
Unless you mean ZG which is a level 60 ten man. Then ok. I would believe it. At the same time your entire argument would be void because you would have 4 levels 70's taking on a dungeon designed for 10 level 60's. This isn't exactly a hard feat to accomplish.
You show me a video of you and 3 buddies busting out Karazhan or Zul'Aman which is a level 70 ten man.
Not only are you 4 the best geared and most bad ass players in WoW but you truly would earn the right to say "WoW is easy!"
Until then, just hush you just spouting out the BS.
So everyone who plays WoW is a mouthbreathing 12 year old and that is why you think it is easy? Insulting the people who play a game doesn't really validate your opinion or give valid reasons why you think it is easier than "every" MMO out.
What is spoonfed? Quests point a direction just like many other MMOs. Some of those MMOs actually put waypoints on your map of where to go. The UI and basic gameplay elements are easy to understand and don't require a 3rd party site to explain. The game is easy to pick up and learn, that is by design. Confusing UIs and mechanics that are not explained don't make a game hard, it just means the game was poorly written.
You seem to think that 10 year old Bobby couldn't do the same exact thing in say EQ2 for example, because he might not be able to solo in that game, but can solo in WoW? He might not be able to do dungeons in that game. but can in WoW? He won't be able to recover from a steeper death penalty by just spending more time recouping lost XP or gold? If Bobbi gets the basic concepts of gameplay in WoW, I'm fairly certain he can do the same exact thing in any other fantasy MMO. If he sucks in WoW I'm certain he will equally suck in another game. NOTE: I am not picking on EQ2, but I needed an example. You just don't give any examples of what you consider harder gameplay, but spend plenty of time saying how easy WoW is.
What exactly is so much harder or not spoonfed in other games, aside from longer time grinds?
Something that I would like you to consider, a UI can be very well designed but remain complex while another can well designed and simplistic. Things that are complex are normally considered "hard" when compared to the simple one. This does not make either poorly designed or broken, just one "harder" than the other. The reason for the complexity may be due to give a wider range of options and/or finer control, but that does not really matter. Due to the nature of complex things, they tend to demand more time/effort, so they tend to take longer because they are "harder", not "harder" because they take longer.
This is just the nature of the complexity, not always a timesink. But then that is all any MMO is, a giant timesink.
So correct.
You can play Wow just as easy and just as hard as you like.
Most who post here didn't even down Gruul or Magtheridon, let alone Illidan. (5%), so Wow lets you waythe easy solo play, or the BG play, or the Arena play, or the normal dungeon play, or the heroics dungeons or the small raids (10 people) or the Largers raids (25 people).
So it is NOT because you can choose HOW to play this jewell, that it is easy.
If you say Wow is easy, it means you only have played it on the "easy" level, meaning you didn't play very well.
Since I'm pretty sure you never grouped with me in WoW, you have no idea how I played - good or bad. While in the approriate level range, I and a group of 3 other like leveled players went into a 10 person instance and were able to clear the entire instance, save for the final boss. And only took 2 tries and 1 death each to do this. Just to give an idea of how very well I played. Easy to learn and easy to master is WoW.
We did start taking groups into instance at levels lower than the dungeons were rated, until the game would not let us enter, saying we were to low a level. The entire group was not allowed due to being low level. So the game was designed to keep us seeking challenges.
LMAO dude you need to get outta here with that crap.
You post on youtube, YOU and 3 other guys running a 10 man and downing the bosses completing it.
THEN I will believe you, I call BS on 4 people running a 10 man and finishing it.
Unless you mean ZG which is a level 60 ten man. Then ok. I would believe it. At the same time your entire argument would be void because you would have 4 levels 70's taking on a dungeon designed for 10 level 60's. This isn't exactly a hard feat to accomplish.
You show me a video of you and 3 buddies busting out Karazhan or Zul'Aman which is a level 70 ten man.
Not only are you 4 the best geared and most bad ass players in WoW but you truly would earn the right to say "WoW is easy!"
Until then, just hush you just spouting out the BS.
"While in the approriate level range," - you missed something.
"clear the entire instance, save for the final boss." - you missed this too.
i found this topic funny... seems like you have been only playing WoW for an long while.. and maybe,.. just maybe tested other p2p games.. since WoW truly is easy.. with capital E
1st of all.. interface is very easy to learn.. as there isnt actually too much stuff there
2nd yes.. lvling was easy before.. and its even easier now that they boosted exp till 60
3rd getting 5x lv70's with pvp gear isnt actually challenging these days in TBC.. you just sit back for 8hrs smacking some nab asses up in BGs/arena daily.. time sinking:Yes.. hard:No
try lets say FFXI for a change.. now that has much more harder interface system//lvling//getting geared for/in EG + it takes ages more to get to actual EG and start raiding.. now in WoW you can do it in few weeks with extra xp boost to 60 + most of those attunements were taken off.. gg.. wow hard nowadays
now this was just an example.. pointing something out.. those that actually have experienced FFXI // WoW gaming.. knows what i talk about.. wow.. is easy
FFXI (6months) .:::.Daker [Retired] - 50MNK/25SAM subs 20+each.:::. WoW (2yrs) Kepittäjä [Retired] (70 mage) //Pujoparta [Retired/Dissed] (70 pala)// Kipittäjä [Retired] (70 rogue)
I'm busting right out the creases, fuck your white jesus..
you're blinded by the light of deceivers and disbelievers
the real truth right in front of you
i am everyone and none of you..
OK so your talking about some low level crap. Ill give it to you in much more simple terms.
I don't care what 10 man dungeon you entered. Old world or Outland. If it were a level 60 ten man or a 70 ten man.
If you went in a 60 ten man, with only 4 60's you didn't make it to the last boss.
If you went in a 70 ten man, with only 4 70's you didn't even make it close to the last boss.
Now I already know you didn't do ANY 10 man in Outland with 4 level 70's. So I won't even bother to post the dungeons there.
BUT
These 4 used to be 10 man with appropriate levels listed. IF you went in these with only 4 people at the appropriate level it suggest you would get destroyed. I might believe you did these 4 with 4 level 60 characters but not 4 of the levels listed. These levels next to the names are there for a reason. It simply means for a good chance at making it out the other side of this instance you need 10 players in this range. So unless you show me a video of lets say you and 3 buddies all level 45 making it to the last boss of Zul'Farrak, I call BS.
Uldaman - 39 - 47
Zul'Farrak - 43 - 47
Maraudon - 43 - 49
Sunken Temple - 49 - 55
These 2 used to be 10 man with appropriate levels listed. IF you went in these with only 4 people at the appropriate level it suggest you would get destroyed. I might believe you did these 2 with 4 level 70 characters but not 4 of the levels listed. These levels next to the names are there for a reason. It simply means for a good chance at making it out the other side of this instance you need 10 players in this range. So unless you show me a video of lets say you and 3 buddies all level 59 making it to the last boss of Dire Maul, I call BS.
Blackrock Mountains - 58 - 60
Dire Maul - 58 - 60
So yeah I raise the BS flag on what you say. I also raise the BS flag on anyone who puts the time into wow and gets to the real end-game - Black Temple, Karazhan, Sunwell, The Eye, Mt. Hyjal and says they are "easy". It is BS and they know it.
Getting to the end game in wow is not easy no matter how you look at it and is that the games fault nope its the comunity. People are to lazy and are not willing to put the work in to get to end game. 99% of guilds dont even make it past kara because they are nto willing to put the work into progress they exspect everythign to happen overnight. Then thare are guild hoppers if some1 falls out with someone in a guild first thing they always seem to do is /gquit and not be mature enough to sort the problems out withing the guild.If you get the right balance of people withing a guild and they raid the game can become easy but this very rarely happens becuase the comunity on wow sucks its to childish and lazy.
QFT
this I will agree with, it is a much more factual based post about the state of "wow in easy mode".
People who post "wow is easy" never put in the work to get to a challenge, they run Zul'Farrak at level 70 and say OHHHH! Easy..... yeah it is, now get yourself in a level 70 raiding guild and fight Illidan. OOOOOH! owned!
The funny thing is WoW is so obviously easy compared to other MMOs, I'm surprised there's argument.
Someone talkin about making it to 70 "not being easy" It's ridiculously easy just time consuming.
10 year old Bobby would mostly take 3 times the amount of time doing it in another game. WoW is designed to be easy. That's why it's popular. There's not much of a learning curve at all. If you're skilled in the game it really make no difference in-game.
You can suck at another game, and do just fine in WoW, that's why it's popular.
Have you played any other MMOs besides WoW? If so, I find it hard to believe you'd be asking this question about what is harder.
Another thing to consider is how quickly people are hitting lvl 70 nowadays and how fast they will be hitting lvl 80.
Yes I've been playing MMOs for a long time now and WoW certainly isn't my first game.
It doesn't make it any harder because it takes Bobby 3 times as long to reach a goal in game A vs game B. There is no skill that is required to play for more time to achieve the same goal, just patience. Really what is the magic number of hours to reach max level when a game goes from easy to hard? Is it 50 hours? 500 hours? 5,000 hours? When does someone get more skilled at MMOs, after the 50th hour, 500th, 5,000th? Time isn't a measurement of challenge or skill in MMOs.
If you suck in another MMO, odds are you suck just as much in WoW. Any mutt can solo to max level in more games than I care to mention, the same applies to grouping to get to max. Unless you think there is some mythical game out there where idiots are somehow weeded out before max level and never infest raids and dungeons? It isn't like dumb people somehow learn to not break CC and wipe raids just by logging into WoW is it? Bosses just don't walk up and die to unskilled players and hand them epics.
You still haven't said what makes other games so much harder to play than WoW other than time commitment. Other than lamenting how easy WoW is your not saying much of substance.
Already have post some comparison with car industry in other topic, I think its exactly the same in the MMO market:
Lets say that WoW is "Best CAR of the year - Its cheap, practical, best car for money if you want to drive from point A to point B". If you like racing theres Ferrari, if you want offroad theres Jeep. Best Car of the year cannot give you anything special so you cannot do anything wrong - theres just not freedom to do big mistakes.
There are some missings that make WoW more easy than some other games:
1. There's no PK - you always know your enemy - its opposite Faction.
2. Dungeons are instanced so no PvE & PvP mixed content.
3. Most of the game you can play solo.
Thats the reason for the big success of the WoW and and also the why many old school MMO players run away from it.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
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LordOfDarkDesire
The obvious answer is the same answer that has made this game such a success - its hard and it's easy.
WoW is pretty much anything you are looking for, which is why 10 million people can play it and each of them gets something (often something very different) out of it.
Is it easy to level up? Yes, but at the same time you can also take the "scenic route" if you want and slow things down.
Is it easy to learn your class abilities? Yes.
Is it easy to get adequate gear for your character? Yes.
Is it easy to do five man instances with the appropriate level group? Yes. (Well usually)
However...there's another side to look at too.
Is it easy to master your class abilities? Absolutely not. Pressing 1,2,3,4 is indeed pretty simple, but when faced with real challenges you quickly learn that there's more to playing any given class than that.
Is it easy to get the best of the best gear for your character? Absolutely not. Raid gear takes a lot of time to get and crafting is a big investment of time as well.
Is it easy to made it through end game content? Absolutely not. It takes the most coordinated and skilled guilds months to beat end game content and most people dont even see it at all.
Lastly I would like to point out that anyone saying WoW is low on strategy is completely mistaken. I have played many MMOs and in most of them fighting a group of enemies requires very little by way of strategy. WoW is the only game I've played where appropriately geared characters going against an appropriate level dungeon have to use specific strategies for EVERY pull. Go play CoX, DDO, TR, or any number of other MMOs where strategy is a plus, but if you just pull a bunch of random mobs its really not that big of a deal. Then play WoW, where a botched pull means party wipe. Played seriously, WoW is anything but easy.
I disagree, there was an obvious reason it took 3 time longer.
Yes it is obvious, time and nothing else. Bobs' friend Fred is playing another MMO right next to him. They both play for 5 hours killing orcs, gathering resources, etc in their respective games. Can Fred really look at Bob and say his gameplay was much harder, because TOMORROW he will have to do it all over again.
Ask a factory assembly line worker with 15+ years experience if their job keeps getting more difficult after doing it for so long or if it just gets boring after a while. Repeating the same task according to some in this thread must increase challenge and difficulty factor right?
Eve is a completely different game than Fantasy MMOs, which is why I keep saying fantasy MMOs. I've only tried the trial of Eve, but when the ship started flying itself I stopped playing. Sort of an apples and oranges comparison to be honest. Kudos to Eve for not following the typical EQ MMO formula that just about every FANTASY mmo has done for years.
Again, you say WoW is spoonfed and other games are harder, but never really point out the WHY of your opinion. What little you have said exists in every other MMOs almost cut/paste which is why you point isn't really valid other than generalizing everyone who plays WoW as if all 10 million people are clones incapable of playing other MMOs. I'll just chalk you up as someone who needs to put everyone else down to make your opinion seem worthy. Cheers.
For myself, I have not found any MMO that really stands out as challenging anymore. They all pretty much play the exact same way. I find it ridiculous for people who want to think they play harder or more skilled games just because they pour more time into playing a game.
WoW is easy for the average gamer, anyone can get a 70 in WoW. But there are games out there if you don't like easy stuff.
I don't play WoW currently, and likely never will again. I happen the think the end game sucks balls. However, it bugs me to see players thinking that they are somehow "more elite gamers" because they are willing to put up with piss poor game design. Does anyone really want to go back to the days of human characters going blind at night, losing levels on death, or quest givers that don't even tell you what continent to look in (let alone what zone)? I know I sure was hell don't.
WoW is simpler than a many MMOs in some ways (the crafting comes to mind). But anyone that thinks the class designs, combat, and raid encounters are any simpler than an average class based MMO is completely deluded. Does anyone in their right mind really believe that a high level WoW Druid is a less complex character to master than an EQ Warrier or a DAoC bolt caster?
And "anyone can get to 70" in WoW is a stupid argument. You can solo your way to the cap in any level based MMO if you have the patience to. Just because it's boring as hell and takes 2000 hours to do does not make it "harder." It just makes it less likely that a sane employed human would choose to.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
WoW: logged in and followed the obvious quests
A game before The Dark Times: logged in first time with a melon and gun. Some troppers were giving me weird looks as they passed by.
I'll take the melon and being lost any day and twice on sunday ;-)
"SOE we fight lest beasts we become" - Dritzz Darkwood, Corbantis. Order 66 casualty