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Saying one thing and doing another, a list of how consumers have been misled
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
What has become a growing concern for me as I've observed trends in MMO gaming, particularly SWG, is that companies like SOE seem to feel they can say anything they want to consumers, take their subscription money based on these statements, and then turn around and do anything they please, regardless of what they have said. Here are just a few examples of things consumers have been told, that have never materialized, or been rendered useless. Some of the information I've heard first hand, other information has been shared by other players:
-ranger and squad leader will be revamped and more important to the game (Sept. 05), both professions deleted (Nov. 05).
-there will be new creatures to tame in the ToOW expansion (Oct. 05), taming deleted from the game (Nov. 05)
-there will be new loot in the ToOW; new loot rendered useless when all of the combat attributes modified by the loot are deleted from the game less than one month later.
-there will be new schematics in the ToOW for crafters; crafters deleted or those that remain are rendered obsolete by NGE's loot based economy.
-the combat upgrade is here to stay (spring 05), combat upgrade replaced entirely by new game enhancements (fall 05).
-we'll be restoring the force ranking system soon, since it's nearly fixed; force ranking system never in fact restored.
-jedi will never become a starter profession; jedi then becomes a starter profession.
-how would you like to see guild controlled star destroyers? I'm guessing that this was suggested just to get people hoping, with no real thought of implementation.
-collision detection will be fixed and you can expect "real jumping" (Nov. 16/05); collision detection still not fixed, jumping is a useless feature.
-we're going to fast track server mergers (summits 07); no server mergers are planned, players are now told they don't want them (spring 2008).
-certain elder jedi powers/abilities will always be the best the game has to offer; recent jedi publish renders new jedi abilities superior.
-smuggler content is coming, and won't be simple delivery missions; smuggler content when released is simple delivery missions.
Truly, anyone that was directly impacted by any of these incidents has grounds to file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commision Bureau of Consumer Protection in my view. Here's the link for anyone who wants to raise awareness and promote change in the MMO industry. Wouldn't it be a nice new concept to have companies like SOE choose their words carefully, communicate honestly, and then follow through on what they have said...
Comments
/agree
Well said ArcAngel3 !!
Just to let to better understand FTC rules, and consumer's rights, i copy only an extract from Section 5 of The FTC ACT ( Federal Law):
quote
Federal Trade Commission Act
Incorporating U.S. SAFE WEB Act amendments of 2006
§ 45. Unfair methods of competition unlawful; prevention by Commission
(Sec. 5)
(1) Unfair methods of competition in or affecting commerce, and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce, are hereby declared unlawful.
...omissis...
(4)(A) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term "unfair or deceptive acts or practices" includes such acts or practices involving foreign commerce that--
(i) cause or are likely to cause reasonably foreseeable injury within the United States; or
(ii) involve material conduct occurring within the United States.
(B) All remedies available to the Commission with respect to unfair and deceptive acts or practices shall be available for acts and practices described in this paragraph, including restitution to domestic or foreign victims.
(b) Proceeding by Commission; modifying and setting aside orders
Whenever the Commission shall have reason to believe that any such person, partnership, or corporation has been or is using any unfair method of competition or unfair or deceptive act or practice in or affecting commerce, and if it shall appear to the Commission that a proceeding by it in respect thereof would be to the interest of the public, it shall issue and serve upon such person, partnership, or corporation a complaint stating its charges in that respect and containing a notice of a hearing upon a day and at a place therein fixed at least thirty days after the service of said complaint. The person, partnership, or corporation so complained of shall have the right to appear at the place and time so fixed and show cause why an order should not be entered by the Commission requiring such person, partnership, or corporation to cease and desist from the violation of the law so charged in said complaint. Any person, partnership, or corporation may make application, and upon good cause shown may be allowed by the Commission to intervene and appear in said proceeding by counsel or in person. The testimony in any such proceeding shall be reduced to writing and filed in the office of the Commission. If upon such hearing the Commission shall be of the opinion that the method of competition or the act or practice in question is prohibited by this subchapter, it shall make a report in writing in which it shall state its findings as to the facts and shall issue and cause to be served on such person, partnership, or corporation an order requiring such person, partnership, or corporation to cease and desist from using such method of competition or such act or practice.
unquote
Seems clear to me... but im not a lawyer...
Comments are welcome.
/salute
ULTRASPARC
So how do i sign up for the class action? I'm no attorney so I can't spearhead this, but I can add one voice.
Faxx
It's not a civil court matter. You don't have to sign up for a class action lawsuit. You don't have to pay a lawyer. If you paid money as a result of misleading marketting, you just click the link and file a report. It's a criminal matter. The appropriate law enforcement agency is notified, and makes a decision about taking action. Feel free to copy/paste the OP if you make a report and find the information helpful.
P.S. restitution to victims mean you may get your money back.
It's not a civil court matter. You don't have to sign up for a class action lawsuit. You don't have to pay a lawyer. If you paid money as a result of misleading marketting, you just click the link and file a report. It's a criminal matter. The appropriate law enforcement agency is notified, and makes a decision about taking action. Feel free to copy/paste the OP if you make a report and find the information helpful.
P.S. restitution to victims mean you may get your money back.
Considering that the customers are all over the world this would be a Federal matter. You call them up and let me know how it turns out,Unaware of the Jestor?
http://about.me/JestorRodo/
Friends enjoy his classic Vblog - https://www.facebook.com/GoodOldReliableNathan
It's not a civil court matter. You don't have to sign up for a class action lawsuit. You don't have to pay a lawyer. If you paid money as a result of misleading marketting, you just click the link and file a report. It's a criminal matter. The appropriate law enforcement agency is notified, and makes a decision about taking action. Feel free to copy/paste the OP if you make a report and find the information helpful.
P.S. restitution to victims mean you may get your money back.
Considering that the customers are all over the world this would be a Federal matter. You call them up and let me know how it turns out,
I'm aware that the following information has been shared with authorities: transcripts of posts from SOE employees promising specific game features that were already scheduled for deletion; a history of incidents where SOE said one thing regarding development plans, took subscription money and then did something else; disclosure from a former SOE employee that SOE was knowingly dishonest regarding marketting around the ToOW expansion and the implementation of the NGE; as well as information alleging that subscription fees taken under false pretenses have not been refunded.Now, when deciding which matters to pursue, federal authorities generally do a triage procedure, based on my previous experience with the justice system here. What would need to happen, likely, is that complaints about SOE's practices come in from a number of people, that these complaints are consistent, evidence based, and clearly indicate a pattern of violating consumer rights.
So, if anyone experienced an actual financial loss because you believe you were knowingly and intentionally misled by information shared by SOE or any MMO company for that matter, do feel free to use the link I've provided in the OP and/or this one http://www.ic3.gov/ to bring the matter to the attention of federal authorities, whose resources are dedicated to enforce consumer rights with regard to internet business.
The one lie about how they were working on the Combat Rebalance and that it was their sole priority, while behind the scenes they had pulled almost the entire team off the live game to work on the first expansion did it for me as far as faith went. The playerbase resoundingly stated they wanted the ground game fixed and SOE promised it would focus on that first. We all know how that worked out.
One of my favorites was "Jedi will be extremely rare".
Here is another that can be added to the list. I bought RoTW in July 05. On the box it said there was a new mining ship and missions. When I started doing those missions to get it in August. The third one didn't spawn the NPC ship ness. to kill to complete the mission. Thus no mining ship. I checked the support knowledge base at the time and they said it was a known issue and a fix was forth coming. When I left at the NGE it still haden't been fixed. When I tried the NGE a year later it was, but in the five months I was in CU it was not working. Brand new expansion that had features on the box that did not work.
Later on I read how SOE released expansions and purposefully would leave new features broken as a carrot to keep subscribers paying as they wait for the feature to be fixed ( not just SWG ). There were other examples of this listed on these forums over the years. I am not going to search them down. But even this thread are are other good examples.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
It's this whole pattern of telling people things, then not delivering; or telling people things, while planning to do something else that has really caught my attention.
In any other business this would be intolerable. Do they think they can get away with it just because it's on the internet? Maybe so. If that's the case, I'm hoping law enforcement catches on to these strategies ASAP to prevent further exploitation.
MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
Being an attorney let me tell you no lawsuit will ever materialize from this. Why? Simply put, the terms of service contained in the box and the online agreement which essentially states "online game experience may change". This is a blanket disclaimer and notice that what they do online can change and vary from day to day, nothing is static and they can change it at whim.
While not being a legal issue, it presents more a PR issues in which SOE has suffered greatly. I for one will never purchase another game developed, housed, hosted, billed, maintained, or even looked at by SOE. I feel very mislead and the developers did it intentionally knowing they can hid behind certain legal language.
Also, you have to show that SOE intentionally and maliciously lied to the consumer. Stating something with every intention to implement, and then not implementing because it didn't work, resource issues, other important things came up instead is not fraud. You have to show SOE stated that X was coming to the game, yet SOE said that knowing full well it was never coming to the game, there was no process in place to put it in the game, and that it was said merely to manipulate the consumer. That is a very HIGH bar to pass, which would not pass here.
"I wish at the very least we'd have been open and honest. Like, for example, told you, "Hey, you will probably hate this, but here's what it is."
Automatically canceling all existing account billing, then giving them all a free month of NGE, would have sent the message that the old game was going, the new game was coming, and that pissing on you and telling you it was raining not only wouldn't fool you, but would insult you, too.
None of that messaging was my call. The only reason I'm ashamed of it, personally, is because I at least should have realized it was a bad thing to do, even if how I felt about marketing, pr, and community management never made a difference anyway. "
Coupled with dev chat transcripts from Oct. 19 advertising features that were already scheduled for deletion makes for a pretty good case in my view. What do you think in light of this information?
Actually, here are the dev chat transcripts along with the disclosure of dishonesty. I welcome any feedback:
Dev chat advertising features in paid expansion that SOE/LA allegedly had already decided to remove from the game, specifically taming of new creatures:
Excerpts from the developer chat on Oct. 19, 2005:
“Sprite - *TKM-Starsider* There appeared to be no testing of CL70+ creatures for MCH during Beta. Will testing be opened on the regular TC anytime soon?
SpaceRancor - *TKM-Starsider* We did do some heavy internal testing on them throughout the design process and beta. The ability to tame this high level pets will be available on the 25th when Mustafar is opened to players who preordered.”
And,
“Sprite - *cyte* question will creature handlers that are able to tame up to a lvl 80 pet be able to choose to have 2 pets that equal lvl 80 instead of 1 lvl 80 pet
SpaceRancor - *cyte* Yes. Creature Handlers will be able to use up to 80 levels of pets when they achieve that ability.”
Starwarsgalaxies.com ad for features SOE/LA allegedly already decided to remove from the game: Here's the Trials of Obi-wan (ToOW) ad. regarding new creatures to tame:
"Will we be getting tamable (creature) babies on Mustafar?
Yes, there will be tamable babies on Mustafar."
Confirmation from dev chat on Nov. 16th that creature handler has in fact been deleted:
“Brekkee - *Phaelyn* It's been noticed that properly trained CL 10 pets can still fight alongside their owner, and that babies still spawn. Is this an indication that we may see Creature Handler return in the near future?
Lord_Pall - No. Creature handler will not be returning. “
Dev chat indicating that this was not a quick decision between Oct. 19 dev chat and Nov. 16 dev chat:
“Lord_Pall - The decision to go forward with this change was not taken lightly.
SWG-TSlothrop - (Star Wars )
Lord_Pall - We prototyped this system and demonstrated to the entire team multiple teams. We had countless meetings, discussions, playtests, focus groups, etc”
Disclosure from former SOE employee Jeff Freeman that SOE was dishonest with it's customers:
"I wish at the very least we'd have been open and honest. Like, for example, told you, "Hey, you will probably hate this, but here's what it is."
Automatically canceling all existing account billing, then giving them all a free month of NGE, would have sent the message that the old game was going, the new game was coming, and that pissing on you and telling you it was raining not only wouldn't fool you, but would insult you, too.
None of that messaging was my call. The only reason I'm ashamed of it, personally, is because I at least should have realized it was a bad thing to do, even if how I felt about marketing, pr, and community management never made a difference anyway. "
The allegation is that SOE knowingly misled people, and that although they refunded money paid for the expansion, they kept money paid for additional subscription time to actually play the expansion:
"Please Note: Original Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided™ is required to play this expansion along with a Station account in good standing and a valid, active Star Wars Galaxies subscription."
In summary, the features were advertised on Oct. 19, went live on Nov. 1, deletion of them announced Nov. 2, carried out Nov. 15, 2005. It seems clear that the marketting was dishonest and that SOE reps knew it was dishonest at the time.
I'm aware that SOE can attempt to use language in their EULA to justify their actions, unless as you say they were knowlingly deceptive. Tbh I think they slipped up in some of their comments, and that these comments demonstrate an intent to deceive.
In fact, the Federal Trade Commission has told me that they are tracking complaints about this and any similar incidents regarding SOE. So, if anyone feels they were intentionally misled by SOE and paid subscription money that was not refunded, now would be a good time to do something about it. The link to make a complaint is here: https://rn.ftc.gov/pls/dod/wsolcq$.startup?Z_ORG_CODE=PU01
The FTC has also told me that it would take numerous complaints indicating a pattern of violation to lead to an investigation. This would not, by the way, be a civil lawsuit, it would be an investigation for the purpose of law enforcement. The laws pertain to the obligation of service providers to communicate honestly with customers about the service they are paying for in advance. Intentional dishonesty that benefits the service provider financially is a violation of those laws.
SOE has a fairly lengthy history of doing this kind of thing, the biggest one I had against was saying the CU will be before JTL (and this was around publish 8-9 period) and by publish 11 JTL was released and the CU didn't go til about 8 months later. They even stated that they had as many people as possible on the CU development team, yet they somehow managed to get JTL done long before the CU.
On a side note, they even said Jedi in publish 9 was intended for balance with the upcoming CU, but when the CU came along, Jedi was changed along with many other professions (lightsaber damage turned from unique damage into energy damage, etc.).
I also have to wonder about intentional deception regarding the disappearance of Jabba's palace. If I remember correctly, we were told it was a bug. In reality I believe that Jabba's palace was removed for retooling to fit into the NGE. I believe this misinformation would have been shared intentionally to keep subscription money coming in under false pretenses.Also, anyone remember the post that leaked the coming of the starter kit for the revamped game? I believe SOE told us in the official forums that there was no such thing as a starter kit, and that anything about it was a false rumour. They would have known, however, that there was indeed a starter kit and that it marked the complete revamping of the game. This outright denial of the truth once again seems like willful deception, again to keep subscription money coming in under false pretenses.
I've also read about people being told that to finish a quest they needed to see a certain contact. People claim the contact wasn't in the game yet, but they were told that it was. Weeks later it allegedly appeared where it previously had not been. Once again, if this account is accurate, there is intentional deception involved, and people would have paid and played searching for something that didn't exist.
In light of these examples, I also wonder about promises to reinstate the force ranking system. Did they really plan to reinstate it, or did they just mollify complaints and keep the subscription money coming in by saying it would soon return? If the latter is true, it's another case of intentional deception that kept money coming in under false pretenses.
Since a number of SOE employees left over these kinds of issues, (or were dismissed) I have to think that obtaining information from them via a subpoena would reveal which broken promises were simply bad service, and which were intentional deceptions. Both of course hurt the customer, but any intentional deception crosses a line.
I reread an old post listing a ton of things that SOE said that appear misleading. Some of them certainly have the appearance of being intentionally so. I make reference to some of these earlier, but here they are with more detail:
"3. Rebel Theme Park - Sorta ties into # 1 as it wasnt ready either. However SOE repeatedly lied about the theme park. If you recall, it was broken after Han's quests. Han tells us to seek out Lt. Lance on Dantooine, but there isnt any Lt. Lance anywhere. SOE tells us its working as intended despite nobody having found Lt. Lance after months and month of looking (my guild personally had several major expedition searches done over many weekends looking for him). Suddenly we learn the truth after a patch...Han now tells us to seek out Ackbar on Dantooine and the once empty abandoned rebel base now has several rebel nps in there. My guild who had followed the game for years in development was soooo pissed off they immediately disbanded and quit."
"7. FRS - CU disables the end-game for jedi, our force ranking system. SOE tells us its being worked on. Later they state its al most done and just awaits final approval from LA. Of course we learn there wont ever be a FRS system and the nerfs we've been getting oover the past 6 months were done on purpose to weaken jedi into a regular class. For me personally, this is one of the more disgusting lies as it was obviously done to keep us jedi players paying.
8. Jabba Palace disappears - The last patch before the NGE garbage makes Jabba's palace completely disappear. SOE acts surprised and promises a fix is coming..another fat lie as we learn why after the nge hits. Jabba's palace was taken out to implement th new nge quests.
9. village breaks - Same patch breaks the village and the old man stops visiting people. SOE again lies to cover its tracks and tells us its being looked at. Of course it was just a cover for the nge.
10. Expansion - SOE presells an expansion with several promised features. One desired item is a creature handler necklace that will allow for the taming of higher lvl pets. Im not sure if that necklace was ever found but it didnt matter because 1 stinkin day after the nge launched Torres of LA announces the revamp of the game and removal of over 24 professions.
11. starter kit - SOE tells us the starter kit is an eroneous listing and will be removed. They deny the rumors of impending changes."
I'd love to ask a current or former SOE employee about these issues to determine if any or all of them were intentional deceptions shared for the purpose of keeping subscription money coming in. If any of these examples fit that description, then I believe the criteria of intentional and malicious deception of customers has certainly been met.
You folks are pissing in the wind. No one cares, not the FTC, not the "authorities", in fact not any legal entiry in the world, and certainly not SOE, who has enough money to bury you with lawyers and cash.
Give it up, it over, done and finished. Move on.
Who the hell are you, and why should I care?
Congrats! You are a victim of Trollstar!
Also, SOE certainly doesn't have enough money to bury the FTC in lawyers and cash. If they choose to pursue an investigation, I'm sure it will be appropriately resourced. Neither I nor any other customer will have to pay legal fees for this type of investigation.
Wow, looks like SOE is really going to get into trouble for the game. If FTC really does look into SOE about SWG then by law they will get into trouble and thousands of people will be getting their money back. And SOE will surely get a fine of some sort.
But this will only happen is the FTC does try to go through with it. If they start to investigate it and then slack off even a little, im sure SOE will do w/ever they can to cover it up. So with that being said FTC would have to work very hard and very fast for them to find info on what SOE has done.
SOE seems to have a way to keep players in the game this way, and quite a few are willing to be SOE's bitch (especially ones in SWG caving in and paying $50/char transfers when they shouldn't be paying at all). You know the movie Vacation (Chevy Chase), he goes to an auto dealer to pick up a car he ordered, but the dealer said it didn't come in and said that stationwagon was just as good (but butt ugly, damn AMC cars) and he eventually caved in and bought it; SOE are being like that car dealer guy in Vacation.
What stands out to me about the Lt. Lance allegation is that apparently this player and his guild-mates were told the quest was functional. In light of this information they paid subscription money to in essence search for a contact that didn't exist. If the contact did not exist, SOE would have known that. This is why it was included in the list of possible intentional deceptions.SOE seems to have a way to keep players in the game this way, and quite a few are willing to be SOE's bitch (especially ones in SWG caving in and paying $50/char transfers when they shouldn't be paying at all). You know the movie Vacation (Chevy Chase), he goes to an auto dealer to pick up a car he ordered, but the dealer said it didn't come in and said that stationwagon was just as good (but butt ugly, damn AMC cars) and he eventually caved in and bought it; SOE are being like that car dealer guy in Vacation.
I'm only aware of these practices in SWG because of my own experiences and hearing from others who played that game. If anyone has seen similar practices in other SOE games, again this would be a good time to say something, since someone with appropriate authority to intervene is listening.