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Alternatives to level/skill growth
Kindelnol
Member Posts: 62
A lot of people believe that a game without level/skill growth would be the best MMOG.
From the way it sounds, they want to instantly be thrown into endgame.
I assume this type of game requires that gear is not the absolute pinnacle of excellence (otherwise you are simply attracting people to the monotonous gear grind of games like WoW).
I understand that a lot of people would love a game with nothing but PvP, but this cannot be all that is offered. What else are we doing in such a game? What are the goals and dreams people wish to attain? What are the alternative routes of advancement (if any) that distinguish one player from the other?
I have an idea of how it might work. I don't know if it would fall into the exact model desired. Personal advancement could be attained by offering an enormous list of skills. You do not level these skills, instead, you hunt for them through dungeons and general exploration of the world. Essentially, it encourages exploration of the tiniest parts of the game. PvP could also allow people to learn skills from other players. For example, if they die, they drop a couple scrolls that hold an ability on each. The deceased player does not lose the ability, instead, the champion would gain it. This could be in addition to losing gear, which may be aimed more for appearance than power.
Such a model would still create a power curve (better abilities would make for better opponents). Anyone would be able to attain this power at any point in the game if lucky though. Also, if the skills dropped randomly (and if there are a lot of techniques within the world), the players would likely be quite different.
This is only one idea for a MMOG model. Is this the sort of thing you guys want? Explain to me your desired model.
Comments
This sounds a lot like Guild Wars.
To be honest, the endgame for a lot of games sounds really appealing. At least, something to play for a month or two (And with MMOs coming out as often as they do, one could be happy with just that). However, to reach endgame, one has to play for 300+ hours. I'm sorry, but unless the game is OMFG TOTALLY AWESOME!!!11one11, I'm never going to get there. Thus, I don't play most MMORPGs.
So far the only game that has been able to hold my attention for such a huge quantity of time is the Disgaea series of games, where you can beat the game at level 100 but advancement goes all of the way up to level 9999, with some extra content along the way (but there's more to the game than just levels, like reincarnation, skills, and ways to improve equipment). So until we can get a game that has more to it than just levels or Eve Online's one-skill-at-a-time-and-independent-of-player-actions, I don't foresee ever reaching endgame.
Though, on the realm of Eve, one thing to say is that the skill advancement does support more casual play. And the "endgame" can be played nearly anytime. This are both features that more MMOs need.
How does a 'use it or lose it' skill advancement sit with you guys? A little like real life where the more you do of something the better you become, but then leave it alone for a few months and when you come back to it then you aren't as good as you was. Such a system would have problems of course, people wouldn't like to go back to seeing their wonderfully advanced toon to becoming a gimp and would resent the time spent being force to do skills that no longer hold an interest.
If the end game is a really a favourite then how about cutting down of the huge differences between the levels. i.e. most games if there is a difference of say 20 levels then the lower level can attack the higher level all day long and in any number without being able to cause a single hitpoint of damage. If it was say, a top level guy is equal in power to roughly 5 newbies then it gives those who want to be top still something to strive for while allowing the newbies still able to contribute.
OK, those are my ideas, I never said they were good ones, flame if you wish
I definitely do not like the idea of a "use it or loose it" scheme. The whole idea of MMORPGs is the idea of moving forward. As much as I might argue with the amount of time involved, they are primarily about power = time spent.
But I do agree that the power curve needs to be flattened. Let newbies participate in end-game content from the get go (but require larger numbers, or enough "oldbies" supporting them), let newbies be able to compete against older characters in PvP, and more. Level 2 = two times level 1 kind of power might work fine in a single player RPG or even a pen and paper game where the world is scaled to the players' level, but not in an MMORPG.
I am all for the use it or lose it idea. As I discussed in a past thread, it makes the most sense (to me) that as you grow older and move on to alternate interests in life, you tend to forget or regress in your abilities. Again, I use the example of my wife who in her past played Saxophone professionally. As her life gravitated more toward her family and home, she stopped playing Saxophone. I bought her a new one though, which she dove right into... and it became quickly obvious she had not played in a while. To add to the "Use it or lose it" philosophy, because she WAS once very good at Sax, she can more easily regain her skill in it. So, at one time she had a 100 skill value, but it has deteriorated to a 50 (I am being kind!) but where before it would have taken her a coyuple years to get from 50 to 100, because she has prior knowledge in the area she can return to 100 in a matter of weeks, or months instead... depending on how much time she dedicates to the skill. This sort of approach to skills in a game makes sense to me. It free's up the player to experiment with different things without penalizing to their detriment if they make bad choices. It also lends to allow one person to fill multiple roles through the career of said character. I do not think just because I did not begin my "life" as a bard should mean I can not one day decide to pick up a Guitar and play it, and eventually become good at it. Nor do I think that just because I constructed houses with my father when I was a teenager that from then on I will be a master carpenter.
Righto.
To avoid ditching casual gamers who only play a few times a week, there would need to be a very long timer on skill decay. If the timer is that slow, it will be rendered almost totally useless when it comes to hardcore players. There's a big balancing act involved in anything time-based.
On a side note, there's only one MMO I've played (and it's not an RPG) that addressed this issue perfectly: Planetside. Newbies have the same stats as veterans -- what you got for levelling up was a wider set of abilities and weapons. In this way, newbies COULD kill years-long vets, although it still was very unlikely.
It would be great if one day someone could port this system into a full RPG, although it's difficult thing to do because it would mean that -- unless you used two entirely different damage systems -- monsters would also need the same amount of HP that PCs have. It's doable, but would take some wild imagination to balance.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
No, my system has nothing to do with levelling o_O
Levelling in an RPG sense is simply elevating your character in a linear line of power. The model I created would be far to random to make it a linear levelling system.
The problem with your system is it does not offer enough for most players. I enjoy PvP, but I cannot base my entire career off of it. You did not mention any goals other than protecting land. At first that might be fun, but it would get old fast (IMO). A game should offer many avenues of play, not just one or two.
Yeah, I do like this option the most as well. I don't think you could get away completely from the leveling system. To a lot of people, to some extent, working to get higher is part of the fun of RPG's, what you need to do though is prevent two things. I'm not entirely disagreeing with the OP, just read the restThe first is a system in which time works heavily to a player's advantage. I would certainly say use it or loose it works best here, but you'd need to make the system apply only to in game time, so if you're logged off, you loose nothing, because that just hurts the casual gamers who are in the worst spot to begin with.
Second, you need to prevent the feeling of work. Now, I prefer a skill system that advances as you use the skills, it removes the need to allocate points or things like that, and automatically makes you stronger in what you do normally, but systems like that CAN still be work. I would implement the OP's skill system here, only with levels. Still include a lot of individual skills, but have each comprised of certain levels. You can use the skill to improve incrementally, or if you get a "skill drop" and find a scroll or implant or whatever, you increase that skill by an entire level, or a few levels depending on the rarity of the drop. This would give newer players the opportunity to advance quickly if they know what their doing. I wouldn't make the drops too common though...
Yeah, I do like this option the most as well. I don't think you could get away completely from the leveling system. To a lot of people, to some extent, working to get higher is part of the fun of RPG's, what you need to do though is prevent two things. I'm not entirely disagreeing with the OP, just read the restThe first is a system in which time works heavily to a player's advantage. I would certainly say use it or loose it works best here, but you'd need to make the system apply only to in game time, so if you're logged off, you loose nothing, because that just hurts the casual gamers who are in the worst spot to begin with.
Second, you need to prevent the feeling of work. Now, I prefer a skill system that advances as you use the skills, it removes the need to allocate points or things like that, and automatically makes you stronger in what you do normally, but systems like that CAN still be work. I would implement the OP's skill system here, only with levels. Still include a lot of individual skills, but have each comprised of certain levels. You can use the skill to improve incrementally, or if you get a "skill drop" and find a scroll or implant or whatever, you increase that skill by an entire level, or a few levels depending on the rarity of the drop. This would give newer players the opportunity to advance quickly if they know what their doing. I wouldn't make the drops too common though...
Just to take a small portion of what you said an comment on it. LOTRO has this "skill drop" system. I had to obtain pages from different areas and then turn then in to obtain a skill. Awesome awesome Idea. I really like that sort of play.
Small edit*** They would have to be BOP so they can not be traded or sold in any way. If they want the skill , they have to get all the pages/scroll whatever to obtain the skill.
Your right I should not have said leveling I should have said "grind"
When you need something like skills or gear to compete and have to farm mobs for drops, it will eventually be a grind. Wow had a skill drop system and it was a grind to get the drop. Even though you didnt need the skill everyone still wanted them all and so you had to farm them if you wanted them.
Your also right most people like the fake feeling of accomlishment that leveling base systems offer. In the system I suggested, there is plenty of stuff to do. There is more stuff to do than in planteside, wwiionline, cod, halo, cs,, and millions of players play those games for years. You have to Explore to find the perfect spots, you have to prepare economically to build your spots, you have to buy/sell maybe craft your chars weapons. There is also a world of politics, making alliances, breaking alliances, bribing better guilds for backup. I did not mention any other goals because they are fluff, aka not needed for a game, but do add value. There could be alot added that has no grind at all, like neocrons stock market, or casinos, or hell treasure hunting.
What i put out is a basis for a great game that common mmos do not have. Think eve economy+ planetside action and vehicles+ neocron crafting and stock market + rts base building. So my too simple of an idea is actually almost too much to ask for....but thats what i want..lol
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
Use it or lose it sounds cool actually.
But what if instead of skill decay based on the passage of time, if it was based on useage. For instance, suppose everyone has 1000 skill points per character. You may start the game at 0 points across the board, but as you use your skills they increase. The kicker would be that as you got closer to that 1000 point cap, your rate of decay of unused skills would increase. And when the total of all your skills hit the level cap of 1000, every time you pick up a point in the thing you do the most you lose a point in the thing you do the least, that way you never go over the point cap of 1000. That would mean, even end game, you would still be constantly perfecting your character.
Then if you wanted to keep that perfecting your endgame character thing going, you could have skill point bonuses that would maybe decay over time. Bonuses could be achieved as ingame rewards for something. The result of a temporary skill point bonus might extend that 1000 pt skill cap to 1100 temporarily, but then it starts to decay over 1 mo time back to 1000. Still though, that extra 100 point bonus would allow you to atleast for a small time boost your abilities, whether they be combat or crafting.
Your right I should not have said leveling I should have said "grind"
When you need something like skills or gear to compete and have to farm mobs for drops, it will eventually be a grind. Wow had a skill drop system and it was a grind to get the drop. Even though you didnt need the skill everyone still wanted them all and so you had to farm them if you wanted them.
Your also right most people like the fake feeling of accomlishment that leveling base systems offer. In the system I suggested, there is plenty of stuff to do. There is more stuff to do than in planteside, wwiionline, cod, halo, cs,, and millions of players play those games for years. You have to Explore to find the perfect spots, you have to prepare economically to build your spots, you have to buy/sell maybe craft your chars weapons. There is also a world of politics, making alliances, breaking alliances, bribing better guilds for backup. I did not mention any other goals because they are fluff, aka not needed for a game, but do add value. There could be alot added that has no grind at all, like neocrons stock market, or casinos, or hell treasure hunting.
What i put out is a basis for a great game that common mmos do not have. Think eve economy+ planetside action and vehicles+ neocron crafting and stock market + rts base building. So my too simple of an idea is actually almost too much to ask for....but thats what i want..lol
It may indeed become a grind. I would hope that if it were a random loot system (one where you can't grind certain abilities from specific mobs) this would cure it. Of course, I can't be certain, but since the system is intended to be random, I would hope people couldn't grind it. Oh well, it was just a quick example of an alternative.
I actually agree with you for the most part on everything else. If a game added those sorts of intricacies, whether they are necessary or not, the game could be quite expansive. I agree that stock markets, casinos, or even a political system would be quite interesting. I once played a game that had a small casino system, but they took it away because some elderly people complained...
Now, as for the use it or lose it system, I am not so sure it would work. I think it would be interesting to see it though. It might be an enjoyable system. If implemented, I think I would prefer it to be similar to Terra's system.
To be honest with you guys, I like certain types of grinding (I am a huge AC fan). It has come to my attention that most people don't though. I am just trying to imagine a game that has a very well developed system that does not require a grind whatsoever (yet can still be enjoyed for years).
This can be done by removing the bulk of the character advancement with world advancement. You would need a true sandbox with very few actual quests or NPCs and instead concentrated players' effort on affecting the world around them. Building societies and governments, researching technology, et cetera.
If the emphasis was put on advancing the world you could theoretically just start a player out with 50-100% of their skills at creation and then a good amount of personal belongings (you would allow them to select these at character creation also so that they could choose stuff which is conducive to what they plan to do in game for a good head start [so if a guy wants to be soldier he would select body armor, rifle, first aid kit, et cetera]).
Aside from the personal belongings selected at character creation all ingame items must be player made. Nothing can be looted aside from components and enhancers which are used in the crafting process.
No levels, no classes. A good physical attribute system that you can allocate at character creation and have migrated by certain player technicians later on.
That's how I'd do it.
Tons of good ideas all around. I am also a fan of the "use it or lose it" but the decay is based on in game time rather then all the time. Also have certain abilities that offset others. For instance, if you're a lumberjack and you were good at felling trees your stamina, strength and the ability to use an ax would all be linked. That way if you're a fighter and you've been fighting with an ax all your life you'd be somewhat predisposed to perhaps being a lumberjack. That way if you decided that you'd like to go gather lumber as perhaps something else to do you'd have a bit of a head start as opposed to the guy that's been perhaps sewing or fighting with daggers. I think everything should be relative in some fashion.
They decay would prevent people from maxing out everything and then running at you throwing spells, firing bows and matching you step for step in hand to hand combat. I think some resemblance to reality is necessary.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-