Companies like FC are so eager to rake in huge profits that they go to any length to copy WoW and add instances rather than good design choices to go the easy route..
AoC = WoW 2.0 ... if you remove the skin, they are the same... all the way from levelling, classes in the triangle of healer - dps - tank, green and blue items.. Battlegrounds, Endgame raidcentric..
Sure they added a fancy singleplayer game from level 1-20 ... but this means you dont create your own destiny or character in the game but follow the SAME linear path as every one else. So the RPG part is killed too. Plus at the moment there is no community...
What I am really wondering is when anyone will try to make again a world where all players play on the same (server structure) world.
EVE managed it with little graphics , but with today's serverfarms it should be possible to host games with hundred of thousands players? Such a game could be the next step again in development, until then we have our online entertainment parks like wow.
They also really gotta return the faction system that EQ built! Like if u play a Dark Elf there everyone else hates you and ur KoS to all guards everywhere from good factions and even some evil factions that don't like u either. In turn you had to take the time to go fight endless waves of mobs to raise your factions so certain races would talk with you ~ anyway.......
Lazy developers are replacing the massive multiplayer concept with heavy instancing, and as long as gamers allow them to get away with it by continuing to pay for that kind of garbage, developers will take the easy way out and instance.
Lazy developers are replacing the massive multiplayer concept with heavy instancing, and as long as gamers allow them to get away with it by continuing to pay for that kind of garbage, developers will take the easy way out and instance.
Unfortunately, you get a lot of players who DEFEND that kind of practice too. How many people around here do you see that defend WoW's gameplay, just because it's something they play?
Imo, todays MMOS play like simple multiplayer games. Pick a server, and you will only see a few people running around. Taking guildwars as an example: The only parts of the game where you actually play are limited to fewer players than typical ut2k4-servers handle. Seeing more and more mmos adapt similar this makes me a bit sad. Originally, mmos simply were large, persistant worlds. You would run into people everywhere who would either try to kill you, or group with you for some quest or strong mob. Often you just talked about what you have seen in what direction (no maps or guides on the web..). You would run into strangers in remote places of the world, while you explored the land. That is what made mmos fun for me. The less instanced and sharded a game is, the more happy i am playing it. Am i being nostalgic about the old days? Perhaps. I want them back.
Batolemaeus,
Nostalgic is a good thing. I miss those days so much. I LOVE not knowing what is around the next corner, or how difficult the mobs "down in the cellar underneath that old abandoned house way out in the middle of the forest" are. I've found a way to get some of that back, but I had to put some effort into it. I've posted it enough today and don't want to be labeled as a spammer, so I'll just drop a link to my Blog. Check it out if you have a moment.
The MM is MMORPG simply means "massive multiplayer". In layman's terms, it means it is a big world with lots of players. Somewhere along the way someone decided that MM meant "forced grouping".
Sure, it's fun to play with a group and take down a powerful objective - but it's far worse when I can't do anything without the help of others. Hours spent "looking for group" when I could be playing solo in some other game. Why is it that I cannot accomplish something in a game unless I have X number of people who want the same objective, are on at the same time as I am and are not complete jerks?
That is why there is such a shift to solo playability. It only takes one idiot to make hundreds of people quit playing a game, and that's lost revenue for developers.
True, but then you go the other way, where grouping isn't just something you can do, it's expected and there are a lot of rude people out there who figure you're their slave labor. I just had that experience over on AO. I was sitting around waiting for some people I normally team with out at TOTW when some guy from another clan comes up and, without saying a word, tries to team with me. Well, I'm just waiting anyhow so I figure what the heck, pick up some extra XP while I'm waiting. But this jerk just wants me along to keep his ass alive, he doesn't even care if I'm low on health, he keeps taking off as fast as he can run and if I have to sit down to heal, he gets pissed off and I have to hunt for him. He straight out told me that I was there to keep him alive and if I died, he'd just find someone else.
So I told him where to insert his weapon and left. That's unfortunately all too common on a lot of MMOs these days. It isn't about making a team, it's about finding people you can use in the short term until you kill them off, then you find a replacement.
After reading everyones post it seems that there is really one main thing that turns games like EQ(classic) to garbage. Developers looking for a solid revenue stream and a huge playerbase. To cure all of that we need a company of gamers that CARE about the game that they are developing, a group of DEVs that have a great and personal idea for a game, and follow it through... essentially giving the "playerbase" the finger. "You can play my game, but it is still my game... no I dont want to instance, no I dont want to enforce rules on camping, no I will not make the mobs in this game easier to kill, because this game is not just a game to me...it is an ideal that i hold close to my heart." "If you dont like it --quit "sort of a thing.
MMOs won't be good again until developers stop worrying about the playerbase and their revenue stream, and just make a game because it is fun to do so.
To drive this home, I dont want to seem like i dont believe the community has no part in the overall wellbeing of a MMO.
I remember back in EQ, we were grouped with a druid, warrior, mage, and rogue. The tank pulled a bit more than we could handle, and he told us to run to ZL-- so that we didnt have face the severe death penalty, he died lost and lost a level.... we came back into the zone completely unscathed. wow i cant imagine anyone doing that in MMOs to date.... its a shame too.
To drive this home, I dont want to seem like i dont believe the community has no part in the overall wellbeing of a MMO. I remember back in EQ, we were grouped with a druid, warrior, mage, and rogue. The tank pulled a bit more than we could handle, and he told us to run to ZL-- so that we didnt have face the severe death penalty, he died lost and lost a level.... we came back into the zone completely unscathed. wow i cant imagine anyone doing that in MMOs to date.... its a shame too.
I agree with you here Cyph3x. The games are made to be solo friendly because the masses want that, but that doesn't mean everyone has to do it. I've been part of guilds in many different games that built themselves like a family (as opposed to a band of mercenaries makin' a quick buck).
And that scenario you described does still happen, but it's not mainstream and usually not publicized. It's much more fun to hide behind your monitor and scream "insert stereotypical pvp slang garbage" at the other person than to group up and kill the bad guys (or heroically save your friends).
Not tooting my own horn, but just recently I did something very similar to the tank in your story. I play Vanguard and my wife and I were grouped with some folks we'd met earlier in the day and were exploring/adventuring with. Well, I decided this scary looking basement in an abandoned old house in the forest would be a fun place to tromp down in like I owned the place. The baddies that came pouring out of there were bent on destroying us, so I tossed a few light heals, drew their attention, and commenced screaming at the top of my lungs for my companions to make a run for it. I lasted long enough for them to get back to the road and make a safe getaway. Now, I didn't lose a level, but I did take a 30k exp hit and some damaged gear, but it was so worth it.
Long winded, I am. Point being, that kind of stuff still happens, but you have to look for it or want it (even going as far as making it happen from time to time.) In the end, the game is the game and noone is forcing anyone to play it a certain way. It's a choice.
The MM is MMORPG simply means "massive multiplayer". In layman's terms, it means it is a big world with lots of players. Somewhere along the way someone decided that MM meant "forced grouping".
It costs tens of millions of dollars to develop a game that supports lots of players, and there is simply no reason to spend that money if the playstyle can be replicated with a single player game and a built in MSN client.
Maybe you don’t object to paying $15 a month for a limited proprietary chat engine but I demand more from my games.
Originally posted by sonicsix
That is why there is such a shift to solo playability. It only takes one idiot to make hundreds of people quit playing a game, and that's lost revenue for developers.
People in these games gravitate to the most efficient way to reach their goals. If solo play is most efficient most people will solo, if group play is most efficient most people will group. IOW people solo because the games actively favor solo play, which as I mentioned above amounts to charging $15 per month for a chat engine.
The problem as I see it is many solo players expect everything in the game to be aimed at them and complain about “forced grouping” whenever there is anything at all targeted at group play.
Ask Funcom, AoC is designed almost entirely for the solo player. Linear progression and heavy instancing make this a very unsociable game in my opinion. Why anyone considers AoC a hit is beyond me, big waste of $50 for me.
Well I am actually playing AoC. Lots of grouping going on, lots of pvp, lots of guild activity. The RP-PvP servers are a blast. I am constantly interacting with other people. Sorry you just don't know how the play the game.
As far as instancing goes. Instancing is a good thing. They could split those people on different servers. Instancing allows more people on one server. So yes it is a good thing.
You can learn/do that in real life just fine so spare me the "it teaches skills for real life" routine. When playing a video game options for "alone time" certainly can't hurt. Especially if you can't quite meet the deadlines of the pro group at the hilt base.
The old EQ (and I played it for years) is a horrible horrible camp fest. Instancing is much much better. It is really no fun when you have to take a number and wait 45 min before having a chance to kill a mob. There is no risks because so many players are round and the chance of the mob killing you is nil.
WOW & AOC are doing something RIGHT with the instancing.
Solo-friendly is the way to go.
It is more likely the developers have finally figured out what the market wants. Just look at AOC's number. 400k boxes sold is NOT bad.
And if some nostalgic niche group of players are left behind, i don't see why they should care.
The old EQ (and I played it for years) is a horrible horrible camp fest. Instancing is much much better. It is really no fun when you have to take a number and wait 45 min before having a chance to kill a mob. There is no risks because so many players are round and the chance of the mob killing you is nil. WOW & AOC are doing something RIGHT with the instancing. Solo-friendly is the way to go. It is more likely the developers have finally figured out what the market wants. Just look at AOC's number. 400k boxes sold is NOT bad. And if some nostalgic niche group of players are left behind, i don't see why they should care.
Your argument sucks because you justification for instancing is predicated on the boring ass "static boss mobs dropping the uber loot" routine.
Anyways, instancing blows. It's a mechanic for carebear simpletons and lazy devs who can't figure out how to make a unified game world work. And no, it's not impossible. PreeCU SWG did and EVE currently does it just fine.
The old EQ (and I played it for years) is a horrible horrible camp fest. Instancing is much much better. It is really no fun when you have to take a number and wait 45 min before having a chance to kill a mob. There is no risks because so many players are round and the chance of the mob killing you is nil. WOW & AOC are doing something RIGHT with the instancing. Solo-friendly is the way to go. It is more likely the developers have finally figured out what the market wants. Just look at AOC's number. 400k boxes sold is NOT bad. And if some nostalgic niche group of players are left behind, i don't see why they should care.
Actually, instancing is much more of a problem than you think. I remember waiting for my turn to get the FBSS spawn camp in Lower Guk, during that time I was able to solo in that dungeon and gain 2 levels before it was my turn to take the camp. And I waited and waited, until I finally gotten my FBSS (flowing black silk sash) it was all worthwhile. I do this for all my characters, I dont camp a certain boss for the loot just to pass it around to my toons. I wanna do it because I need it for my main guy. I gotten my FBSS, now I just move along and let the next person try their luck.
On the other hand if I go into an instanced zone, I would camp that thing over and over again, making tons of money very quick VERY EASY. This leads into the market that brings along gold farmers/sellers. Instance games IMO makes the MMO's economy go to ruins. I could go and get everything I wanted with just one character and pass it along to all my toons. Where's the sense of accomplishment in that? But then again its all a matter of how you like to play, people tend to take the easy way out.
Comments
Companies like FC are so eager to rake in huge profits that they go to any length to copy WoW and add instances rather than good design choices to go the easy route..
AoC = WoW 2.0 ... if you remove the skin, they are the same... all the way from levelling, classes in the triangle of healer - dps - tank, green and blue items.. Battlegrounds, Endgame raidcentric..
Sure they added a fancy singleplayer game from level 1-20 ... but this means you dont create your own destiny or character in the game but follow the SAME linear path as every one else. So the RPG part is killed too. Plus at the moment there is no community...
Poor design choice + greed!
____________________________
CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
____________________________
And if they don't want to group, why should they?
Socialize?
What I am really wondering is when anyone will try to make again a world where all players play on the same (server structure) world.
EVE managed it with little graphics , but with today's serverfarms it should be possible to host games with hundred of thousands players? Such a game could be the next step again in development, until then we have our online entertainment parks like wow.
Eternum Online has this
Lazy developers are replacing the massive multiplayer concept with heavy instancing, and as long as gamers allow them to get away with it by continuing to pay for that kind of garbage, developers will take the easy way out and instance.
Unfortunately, you get a lot of players who DEFEND that kind of practice too. How many people around here do you see that defend WoW's gameplay, just because it's something they play?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Nostalgic is a good thing. I miss those days so much. I LOVE not knowing what is around the next corner, or how difficult the mobs "down in the cellar underneath that old abandoned house way out in the middle of the forest" are. I've found a way to get some of that back, but I had to put some effort into it. I've posted it enough today and don't want to be labeled as a spammer, so I'll just drop a link to my Blog. Check it out if you have a moment.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Malivius/052008/1755_Introduction-My-VG
The MM is MMORPG simply means "massive multiplayer". In layman's terms, it means it is a big world with lots of players. Somewhere along the way someone decided that MM meant "forced grouping".
Sure, it's fun to play with a group and take down a powerful objective - but it's far worse when I can't do anything without the help of others. Hours spent "looking for group" when I could be playing solo in some other game. Why is it that I cannot accomplish something in a game unless I have X number of people who want the same objective, are on at the same time as I am and are not complete jerks?
That is why there is such a shift to solo playability. It only takes one idiot to make hundreds of people quit playing a game, and that's lost revenue for developers.
True, but then you go the other way, where grouping isn't just something you can do, it's expected and there are a lot of rude people out there who figure you're their slave labor. I just had that experience over on AO. I was sitting around waiting for some people I normally team with out at TOTW when some guy from another clan comes up and, without saying a word, tries to team with me. Well, I'm just waiting anyhow so I figure what the heck, pick up some extra XP while I'm waiting. But this jerk just wants me along to keep his ass alive, he doesn't even care if I'm low on health, he keeps taking off as fast as he can run and if I have to sit down to heal, he gets pissed off and I have to hunt for him. He straight out told me that I was there to keep him alive and if I died, he'd just find someone else.
So I told him where to insert his weapon and left. That's unfortunately all too common on a lot of MMOs these days. It isn't about making a team, it's about finding people you can use in the short term until you kill them off, then you find a replacement.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
After reading everyones post it seems that there is really one main thing that turns games like EQ(classic) to garbage. Developers looking for a solid revenue stream and a huge playerbase. To cure all of that we need a company of gamers that CARE about the game that they are developing, a group of DEVs that have a great and personal idea for a game, and follow it through... essentially giving the "playerbase" the finger. "You can play my game, but it is still my game... no I dont want to instance, no I dont want to enforce rules on camping, no I will not make the mobs in this game easier to kill, because this game is not just a game to me...it is an ideal that i hold close to my heart." "If you dont like it --quit "sort of a thing.
MMOs won't be good again until developers stop worrying about the playerbase and their revenue stream, and just make a game because it is fun to do so.
To drive this home, I dont want to seem like i dont believe the community has no part in the overall wellbeing of a MMO.
I remember back in EQ, we were grouped with a druid, warrior, mage, and rogue. The tank pulled a bit more than we could handle, and he told us to run to ZL-- so that we didnt have face the severe death penalty, he died lost and lost a level.... we came back into the zone completely unscathed. wow i cant imagine anyone doing that in MMOs to date.... its a shame too.
And that scenario you described does still happen, but it's not mainstream and usually not publicized. It's much more fun to hide behind your monitor and scream "insert stereotypical pvp slang garbage" at the other person than to group up and kill the bad guys (or heroically save your friends).
Not tooting my own horn, but just recently I did something very similar to the tank in your story. I play Vanguard and my wife and I were grouped with some folks we'd met earlier in the day and were exploring/adventuring with. Well, I decided this scary looking basement in an abandoned old house in the forest would be a fun place to tromp down in like I owned the place. The baddies that came pouring out of there were bent on destroying us, so I tossed a few light heals, drew their attention, and commenced screaming at the top of my lungs for my companions to make a run for it. I lasted long enough for them to get back to the road and make a safe getaway. Now, I didn't lose a level, but I did take a 30k exp hit and some damaged gear, but it was so worth it.
Long winded, I am. Point being, that kind of stuff still happens, but you have to look for it or want it (even going as far as making it happen from time to time.) In the end, the game is the game and noone is forcing anyone to play it a certain way. It's a choice.
It costs tens of millions of dollars to develop a game that supports lots of players, and there is simply no reason to spend that money if the playstyle can be replicated with a single player game and a built in MSN client.
Maybe you don’t object to paying $15 a month for a limited proprietary chat engine but I demand more from my games.
Year 2008 and the people still speak about forced group mmorpgs or solo mmorpgs.
The problem is this, actually there is not mmorpgs for both things, for both types of players and repeat, we are at 2008. Sad.
Well I am actually playing AoC. Lots of grouping going on, lots of pvp, lots of guild activity. The RP-PvP servers are a blast. I am constantly interacting with other people. Sorry you just don't know how the play the game.
As far as instancing goes. Instancing is a good thing. They could split those people on different servers. Instancing allows more people on one server. So yes it is a good thing.
You can learn/do that in real life just fine so spare me the "it teaches skills for real life" routine. When playing a video game options for "alone time" certainly can't hurt. Especially if you can't quite meet the deadlines of the pro group at the hilt base.
AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017
Refugee of Auberean
Refugee of Dereth
The old EQ (and I played it for years) is a horrible horrible camp fest. Instancing is much much better. It is really no fun when you have to take a number and wait 45 min before having a chance to kill a mob. There is no risks because so many players are round and the chance of the mob killing you is nil.
WOW & AOC are doing something RIGHT with the instancing.
Solo-friendly is the way to go.
It is more likely the developers have finally figured out what the market wants. Just look at AOC's number. 400k boxes sold is NOT bad.
And if some nostalgic niche group of players are left behind, i don't see why they should care.
Your argument sucks because you justification for instancing is predicated on the boring ass "static boss mobs dropping the uber loot" routine.
Anyways, instancing blows. It's a mechanic for carebear simpletons and lazy devs who can't figure out how to make a unified game world work. And no, it's not impossible. PreeCU SWG did and EVE currently does it just fine.
Actually, instancing is much more of a problem than you think. I remember waiting for my turn to get the FBSS spawn camp in Lower Guk, during that time I was able to solo in that dungeon and gain 2 levels before it was my turn to take the camp. And I waited and waited, until I finally gotten my FBSS (flowing black silk sash) it was all worthwhile. I do this for all my characters, I dont camp a certain boss for the loot just to pass it around to my toons. I wanna do it because I need it for my main guy. I gotten my FBSS, now I just move along and let the next person try their luck.
On the other hand if I go into an instanced zone, I would camp that thing over and over again, making tons of money very quick VERY EASY. This leads into the market that brings along gold farmers/sellers. Instance games IMO makes the MMO's economy go to ruins. I could go and get everything I wanted with just one character and pass it along to all my toons. Where's the sense of accomplishment in that? But then again its all a matter of how you like to play, people tend to take the easy way out.