Let me propose another hypothetical situation. 2 games. Game 1 is called the marathon. It's your typical 26 mile race from start to finish. Game 2 is called the 100 yard nap. It requires that a person run 100 yards, but after every 10 yards they must take an hour long nap. If a person were to play game 2, it would take them at least 9 hours to complete the game. Some people have been known to complete game 1 in about 4 hours I believe. Anyone who believes that game 2 is a "harder" game than game 1, please raise your hand.
Which is the reason for checking why one game might take longer than another.
How about two games, both 26 mile marathons. One takes 4 hours, the other takes 8 hours. Need to see why the second takes longer. After checking you discover the first race is over flat paved road the entire length, the second is over undeveloped mountains.
If anyone was arguing the point that time made the game harder, I missed it. But I did see several say that a game took longer because it was harder.
Which is the reason for checking why one game might take longer than another. Exactly. How about two games, both 26 mile marathons. One takes 4 hours, the other takes 8 hours. Need to see why the second takes longer. After checking you discover the first race is over flat paved road the entire length, the second is over undeveloped mountains. If anyone was arguing the point that time made the game harder, I missed it. Some did. If you were not, then my bad. But I did see several say that a game took longer because it was harder. Where's the evidence? Show me the evidence that indicates another game is harder than WoW rather than simply longer. Remember that we have already agreed upon a few of the criteria that might indicate more difficulty. Give me some examples and we'll discuss.
Originally posted by Taliasin Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy.
The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined.
Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around.
Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.
That is pretty much exactly what I am talking about. For sake of discussion, the second crafting system is more challenging, it is more complex and it takes much more attention to complete than the first system. The fact that it takes more time is not important in the slightest. The actions taken during a 4 hour game session are far more important than the simple fact the something took 4 hours to complete. I think a lot of people are missing that point.
However, one games come to mind quickly that had a similar crafting system that you describe and another just behind that one. While on paper they appear to be more difficult and challenging, they turned out very different in implementation. They turned out to be grindfests of repeating the same clicks over and over and over. Each was designed by devs to cater to the crowd that thinks difficulty is measured by the amount of time spent doing something, regardless of the difficulty of the tasks being repeated.
Some people love time sinks and grind fests and consider them a measurement of achievement and more power to them for being happy. However, time spent does not equate to degree of difficulty, except for testings someones level of patience.
I have played a couple of games that had the type of crafting described, one had combat much like that of WoW and was pretty much otherwise equvilant to WoW. I have been told that they have lessen to required amount of player involvment for crafting, but comparing WoW to the game experience I had then, that game would, over all, be the more challenging.
The second game that used that type of crafting, also had a "real time" combat (something like that used in Age of Conan). Of the three, I would say this was the most challenging over all.
So now with the time issue hopefully out of the way. I still say that, of the games I have played of the years WoW is among the easiest.
Or, to put it in other terms, the required amount of involvement to succeed in WoW was less then many other game experiences that I have had. What someone else did or did not do in another games, how developers of a game I never played designed their game, or the bugs/poor design somewhere else have no real meaning to my comparisons.
I have played a couple of games that had the type of crafting described, one had combat much like that of WoW and was pretty much otherwise equvilant to WoW. I have been told that they have lessen to required amount of player involvment for crafting, but comparing WoW to the game experience I had then, that game would, over all, be the more challenging. The second game that used that type of crafting, also had a "real time" combat (something like that used in Age of Conan). Of the three, I would say this was the most challenging over all. So now with the time issue hopefully out of the way. I still say that, of the games I have played of the years WoW is among the easiest. Or, to put it in other terms, the required amount of involvement to succeed in WoW was less then many other game experiences that I have had. What someone else did or did not do in another games, how developers of a game I never played designed their game, or the bugs/poor design somewhere else have no real meaning to my comparisons.
Could you be a bit more specific? When you talk in generalities it's very hard to discuss facts.
You mentioned Conan and it's "real time" combat. Why exactly did you choose the term "real time"? You suggesting that WoW's combat is not "real time"? "real time" to me means that it's happening in real time, as opposed to say "turn based" combat. Well WoW certainly isn't "turn based". There's very little difference in Conan's combat system then WoW's except for the added "left right middle" indicator. How does that make it "real time"?
But let's forget the term "real time" and focus just on difficulty shall we? Is Conan's combat system more difficult? What is really required of the person more than in WoW? That they look at the on-screen information, determine which option of the three has the best chance of landing and choosing that one? Is that more difficult? I would have to say, yes, it is, but only by a small margin. Once you get the idea, it becomes second nature and really requires no extra thought whatsoever.
And let's not jump to any conclusions either. Is that the ONLY change? I'm not all that familiar with Conan's combat system, but I suspect there are a few other differences between it and WoW as well. Is it possible that although Conan is slightly more difficult in this regard, could it be slightly less difficult in some other regard which would balance it out? For example it's my understanding that healing in Conan effects everyone around you. You don't target the person to be healed, you simply cast the heal spell and it heals everyone. I'm not 100% sure of this, but it's what I have been told. Wouldn't you consider that slightly less difficult than in WoW where you must first target the right person to heal? I can't really answer that question because I'm not that familiar with Conan, but you can see how tough it becomes to determine difficulty can't you?
So while some insist that other games are harder, I don't think they really dig down deep into the facts and try to seperate fact from opinion and see the overall picture. They tend to focus on a very small set of circumstances and claim this one circumstance shows the game is more difficult and ignore all the circumstances that might tend to counter that opinion.
Could you be a bit more specific? When you talk in generalities it's very hard to discuss facts.
You mentioned Conan and it's "real time" combat. Why exactly did you choose the term "real time"? You suggesting that WoW's combat is not "real time"? "real time" to me means that it's happening in real time, as opposed to say "turn based" combat. Well WoW certainly isn't "turn based". There's very little difference in Conan's combat system then WoW's except for the added "left right middle" indicator. How does that make it "real time"?
But let's forget the term "real time" and focus just on difficulty shall we? Is Conan's combat system more difficult? What is really required of the person more than in WoW? That they look at the on-screen information, determine which option of the three has the best chance of landing and choosing that one? Is that more difficult? I would have to say, yes, it is, but only by a small margin. Once you get the idea, it becomes second nature and really requires no extra thought whatsoever.
And let's not jump to any conclusions either. Is that the ONLY change? I'm not all that familiar with Conan's combat system, but I suspect there are a few other differences between it and WoW as well. Is it possible that although Conan is slightly more difficult in this regard, could it be slightly less difficult in some other regard which would balance it out? For example it's my understanding that healing in Conan effects everyone around you. You don't target the person to be healed, you simply cast the heal spell and it heals everyone. I'm not 100% sure of this, but it's what I have been told. Wouldn't you consider that slightly less difficult than in WoW where you must first target the right person to heal? I can't really answer that question because I'm not that familiar with Conan, but you can see how tough it becomes to determine difficulty can't you?
So while some insist that other games are harder, I don't think they really dig down deep into the facts and try to seperate fact from opinion and see the overall picture. They tend to focus on a very small set of circumstances and claim this one circumstance shows the game is more difficult and ignore all the circumstances that might tend to counter that opinion.
That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
First off, let's remember we are talking about games. None are "hard" in any absolute sense. The difficulty is a comparitive one.
Also, since this is a comparision, I am working off the "minimum required involvement" of the player.
I have just started looking at Conan, so I can not make any over all comparision at this point. However, staying with the Conan example for the moment (the "real time" phrase comes from adverts for the game), both games become easier than when you started. Conan requires you to watch the screen for your targets attacks and defenses, WoW you are just watching for attacks. The "real time" phrase actually refers to the lack of auto attack/auto defense ( I understand that there may be an "auto" mode in setting somewhere, which could change things ).
There are some AoE(group) heals and some individual heals, as there are in WoW. Not sure of what the person might have been referencing. But I have played some games where facing did not matter, and it was easier then when facing mattered. And not as much fun for me.
Bearing in mind that I have not enough experience with Conan to compare them in an overall fashion. On a level to level (not character level) comparision, I would give Conan the edge for beginning combat. Crafting, large group/raid and PvP are still in the unknown catagory.
I respect what you are saying Taliasin and it is nice to see someone talking about the whys of gameplay instead of the how long. To a degree I even agree with what you say in many aspects.
Personally I haven't found a degree of challenge in any MMO in years to say that one game is harder than the next overall. There are some games I have found some aspects easier, such as combat in CoH was almost auto pilot easy and not much harder in SWG. Just about every crafting system has been the same click to combine mechanic with some window dressing here and there. The only real differences being the number of clicks and extra time spent staring at progress bars required to make something. Some games quests tell a direction to travel and some games actually put waypoints all over your map negating any sense of discovery or exploration (SWG/Vanguard). There are a number of games that have some standout examples of challenge in certain aspects over other games, but not overall enough to say the entire game is harder. SWG crafting comes to mind here.
All that said though, I haven't really seen anything that would make me say one game overall is spoonfed easy mode compared to the rest of the market. They all basically play the same after you learn your first MMO.
If someone leveled to max in WoW I would expect they could do the same exact thing in any other solo content game without any more difficulty. If someone is a mouth breathing dolt in one game, odds are they won't miraculously become a stand out player in the next game.
Could you be a bit more specific? When you talk in generalities it's very hard to discuss facts.
You mentioned Conan and it's "real time" combat. Why exactly did you choose the term "real time"? You suggesting that WoW's combat is not "real time"? "real time" to me means that it's happening in real time, as opposed to say "turn based" combat. Well WoW certainly isn't "turn based". There's very little difference in Conan's combat system then WoW's except for the added "left right middle" indicator. How does that make it "real time"?
But let's forget the term "real time" and focus just on difficulty shall we? Is Conan's combat system more difficult? What is really required of the person more than in WoW? That they look at the on-screen information, determine which option of the three has the best chance of landing and choosing that one? Is that more difficult? I would have to say, yes, it is, but only by a small margin. Once you get the idea, it becomes second nature and really requires no extra thought whatsoever.
And let's not jump to any conclusions either. Is that the ONLY change? I'm not all that familiar with Conan's combat system, but I suspect there are a few other differences between it and WoW as well. Is it possible that although Conan is slightly more difficult in this regard, could it be slightly less difficult in some other regard which would balance it out? For example it's my understanding that healing in Conan effects everyone around you. You don't target the person to be healed, you simply cast the heal spell and it heals everyone. I'm not 100% sure of this, but it's what I have been told. Wouldn't you consider that slightly less difficult than in WoW where you must first target the right person to heal? I can't really answer that question because I'm not that familiar with Conan, but you can see how tough it becomes to determine difficulty can't you?
So while some insist that other games are harder, I don't think they really dig down deep into the facts and try to seperate fact from opinion and see the overall picture. They tend to focus on a very small set of circumstances and claim this one circumstance shows the game is more difficult and ignore all the circumstances that might tend to counter that opinion.
That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
First off, let's remember we are talking about games. None are "hard" in any absolute sense. The difficulty is a comparitive one.
Also, since this is a comparision, I am working off the "minimum required involvement" of the player.
I have just started looking at Conan, so I can not make any over all comparision at this point. However, staying with the Conan example for the moment (the "real time" phrase comes from adverts for the game), both games become easier than when you started. Conan requires you to watch the screen for your targets attacks and defenses, WoW you are just watching for attacks. The "real time" phrase actually refers to the lack of auto attack/auto defense ( I understand that there may be an "auto" mode in setting somewhere, which could change things ).
There are some AoE(group) heals and some individual heals, as there are in WoW. Not sure of what the person might have been referencing. But I have played some games where facing did not matter, and it was easier then when facing mattered. And not as much fun for me.
Bearing in mind that I have not enough experience with Conan to compare them in an overall fashion. On a level to level (not character level) comparision, I would give Conan the edge for beginning combat. Crafting, large group/raid and PvP are still in the unknown catagory.
The problem that I have with Conan claiming they have "real time" combat because they don't have "auto" attacks is that very few skills in WoW actually have this feature either. Most of the skills must be initiatied by the player. Only very basic skills like swinging your weapon, firing your bow or using your wand are automated and only then if you are within range for that skill. For the most part it is the non "auto" attack skills that make or break you in combat. No one gets by simply by initiating combat and walking away from the keyboard. That's a myth perpetuated by the uninformed.
As far as "auto" defense is concerned, I'm curious how this works in Conan. If you have a shield, do you have to "block" with it? And if so, if you don't you get absolutely no value from it whatsoever or just a lower block rate? And does everyone have a shield? I'm not aware of how this works.
As far as the healing goes, perhaps his character only had group heals and no specific heals. This was just a conversation I had with the guy the other day and he'd only had the game a short while and he was explaining some differences between it and WoW and that one specifically struck me as odd.
Another thing I found interesting was that ranged attacks didn't use the features that melee attacks did. In other words casters were pretty much how it is in WoW.
But we are getting off track now, so I'll wrap this up.
I'm not insisting that WoW isn't an easy game to play, I think for the most part it is an easy game. However it's still very similar to most of the other MMO's on the market and those claiming to be "harder" are very subjective and open to interpretation. What 1 person sees as "hard" another person sees as "tedious" and theres a fine line between the two. Also, not everyone is looking for a challenge, some are just looking to be entertained and WoW does a pretty good job of that.
I respect what you are saying Taliasin and it is nice to see someone talking about the whys of gameplay instead of the how long. To a degree I even agree with what you say in many aspects. Personally I haven't found a degree of challenge in any MMO in years to say that one game is harder than the next overall. There are some games I have found some aspects easier, such as combat in CoH was almost auto pilot easy and not much harder in SWG. Just about every crafting system has been the same click to combine mechanic with some window dressing here and there. The only real differences being the number of clicks and extra time spent staring at progress bars required to make something. Some games quests tell a direction to travel and some games actually put waypoints all over your map negating any sense of discovery or exploration (SWG/Vanguard). There are a number of games that have some standout examples of challenge in certain aspects over other games, but not overall enough to say the entire game is harder. SWG crafting comes to mind here. All that said though, I haven't really seen anything that would make me say one game overall is spoonfed easy mode compared to the rest of the market. They all basically play the same after you learn your first MMO. If someone leveled to max in WoW I would expect they could do the same exact thing in any other solo content game without any more difficulty. If someone is a mouth breathing dolt in one game, odds are they won't miraculously become a stand out player in the next game.
Thank you for the comments. Good to have a discussion that does not devolve into name calling and/or worse.
When you say degree, I think you may have found a key point. All the comparisions here are a matter of degree. To you the difference may be such a small degree as to not matter, to someone else it may be enough to make a difference.
Let me make a quick comparision between WoW and LoTRO to illustrate a point. This will not be complete or totally acurate but will be overly simplified.
LoTRO and WoW are both easy to learn games, but I would give LoTRO the edge.
Combat is much the same between the two, but LoTRO combat has many more conditional attacks. This means the things can be "chained" to gether for a better affect. Since some of "links" in these chains can be random, such as getting a critial hit or it can be a party member perfoming a particular attack. This means that even in a minor encounter, the player needs to watch the screen during the entire combat.
Crafting has one difference, the use of crafting tools that wearout. Yes, a money sink, but an added layer to the crafting.
Character development is another area of difference. WoW's skill/spec tree is probably the "harder" of the two. Limited resources (points) and prereqs will need some thought.
So, with this in mind, I would give LoTRO the edge. Not by much. Will this keep anyone from playing either game? Nope. Is it enough of a difference to matter? Depends on the person.
Combat is much the same between the two, but LoTRO combat has many more conditional attacks. This means the things can be "chained" to gether for a better affect. Since some of "links" in these chains can be random, such as getting a critial hit or it can be a party member perfoming a particular attack. This means that even in a minor encounter, the player needs to watch the screen during the entire combat.
WoW has features like this as well though. Some skills can only be cast at certain times or only have benefit when cast at certain times.
For instance the counterspell skill. If cast when the opponent is casting a skill, then it cancels the skill and prevents skills in that "school" to be silenced for a short period of time. If cast when the opponent is not casting a skill, it does absolutely nothing, but the skill is still used and cannot be used again until the cooldown for the skill expires. This is only one example, there are many others.
There are also a good many skills that can be combined with drastic effects. For instance there's power of the mind which makes the next skill cast to be an instant cast. This is extremely effective when used with a skill that has a long cast time like Pyro-blast which is fairly obvious, but there's also many other uses that are not quite so obvious. For instance if you are chasing someone on a mount, if you stop to cast polymorph on that person, it will take too long to cast and the person will get out of range before the cast can complete, however if you combine it with power of the mind, you have an instant cast polymorph and will dismount the rider. It's uses like that which show the real power of the WoW combat system.
Still other skills can only be cast when certain circumstances have been achieved, like the warriors excute skill which can only be used when the opponents health is below a certain amount. There's skills that only can be used after struck with a critical or only activate after getting a critical hit. Unless you pay particular attention to these types of indicators, you won't be playing your class to it's full potential.
So I have to disagree that LOTRO offers really anything as far as combat goes that WoW doesn't offer. I only played it a short while and only in beta, but nothing struck me as game changing. The combo's added a slight twist on the mechanics, but nothing more.
Combat is much the same between the two, but LoTRO combat has many more conditional attacks. This means the things can be "chained" to gether for a better affect. Since some of "links" in these chains can be random, such as getting a critial hit or it can be a party member perfoming a particular attack. This means that even in a minor encounter, the player needs to watch the screen during the entire combat.
WoW has features like this as well though. Some skills can only be cast at certain times or only have benefit when cast at certain times.
For instance the counterspell skill. If cast when the opponent is casting a skill, then it cancels the skill and prevents skills in that "school" to be silenced for a short period of time. If cast when the opponent is not casting a skill, it does absolutely nothing, but the skill is still used and cannot be used again until the cooldown for the skill expires. This is only one example, there are many others.
There are also a good many skills that can be combined with drastic effects. For instance there's power of the mind which makes the next skill cast to be an instant cast. This is extremely effective when used with a skill that has a long cast time like Pyro-blast which is fairly obvious, but there's also many other uses that are not quite so obvious. For instance if you are chasing someone on a mount, if you stop to cast polymorph on that person, it will take too long to cast and the person will get out of range before the cast can complete, however if you combine it with power of the mind, you have an instant cast polymorph and will dismount the rider. It's uses like that which show the real power of the WoW combat system.
Still other skills can only be cast when certain circumstances have been achieved, like the warriors excute skill which can only be used when the opponents health is below a certain amount. There's skills that only can be used after struck with a critical or only activate after getting a critical hit. Unless you pay particular attention to these types of indicators, you won't be playing your class to it's full potential.
So I have to disagree that LOTRO offers really anything as far as combat goes that WoW doesn't offer. I only played it a short while and only in beta, but nothing struck me as game changing. The combo's added a slight twist on the mechanics, but nothing more.
As I said LoTRO has more of these types of conditional attacks, with a large portion of them depending on outside occurances, not the individual character doing the right two things in a row. To me that increases the degree of involvement needed.
As for your question of shields in Conan. I have not tried all the possible characters so can not say that all can or can not use a shield. but to use the shield, you determine what area you want it to protect and can shift this during combat. If you get hit where you do not have the sheild then, as far as I can tell, it offers no protection.
Did think of one thing on the heals, if a character casts an individual heal and that character is not grouped, it may auto target the caster. Don't know at this point, but I have seen other games with that behavior.
But the point of the LoTRO to WoW comparision was to show a very small degree of difference. There is a difference, enough for me to say that, if I had to pick one as "harder" that LoTRO would be my pick. To someone else the difference is so small that it does not matter to that person. Just looks like I fall into the former while you fall in to the latter.
As I said LoTRO has more of these types of conditional attacks, with a large portion of them depending on outside occurances, not the individual character doing the right two things in a row. To me that increases the degree of involvement needed. A great many of the things I'm referring to are outside occurances. Many skills have the ability to interrupt your opponent. To be effectively used, you have to watch your opponent, wait till he does something that can be interupted and then use the ability which interrupts him. Not that the ability can't be used at other times, but it's most effective when used in this manner especially in PvP. I saw nothing of this kind of functionality in LOTRO, however as I have said, I only played in beta and only for a short while. I never did any PvP in LOTRO. As you say, I'm unconvinced.
But the point of the LoTRO to WoW comparision was to show a very small degree of difference. There is a difference, enough for me to say that, if I had to pick one as "harder" that LoTRO would be my pick. To someone else the difference is so small that it does not matter to that person. Just looks like I fall into the former while you fall in to the latter.
Again, I agree with everything you are saying here. If pressed I could put my opinion of the MMOs I have played in a list from easier to harder . It wouldn't really mean much since they all pretty much play exactly alike that none of them would be hard to understand in comparison to just about any other fantasy MMO.
Much of this threads scope has been about easymode this or that as if one fantasy MMO is so complex people might have trouble playing it compared to another one. I would love to see one, but the people making such claims haven't really backed up those statements with anything other than some insults to a user base and misconceptions about lengthening time sinks adding complexity.
Honestly I am ready for the next generation of MMOs that all these companies keep promising and not delivering. I still enjoy MMOs for what they are, but outside of a few select things it has been a very long time since I've seen anything that really put me to task over what I have already done in another game.
Here it is again "AOE only heal spells". Found that in the Conan forums. Taliasin, you care to comment? What I'm hearing from other folks is that Conan has no direct heals, but only AoE heals. I've now heard this from 2 different sources and one of them was a buddy of mine that has played a ton of MMO's and specifically pointed it out to me as being different from WoW.
Here it is again "AOE only heal spells". Found that in the Conan forums. Taliasin, you care to comment? What I'm hearing from other folks is that Conan has no direct heals, but only AoE heals. I've now heard this from 2 different sources and one of them was a buddy of mine that has played a ton of MMO's and specifically pointed it out to me as being different from WoW. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2045950#2045950
AoC is a bad game too, have you not lurked their forums enough to figure that out?
People who have never played another mmo may think WoW is difficult, and that is fine they don't know any better, but everyone who has been in the MMo play field since UO knows that WoW is easy. How is this still being discussed? WoW is a very easy MMo, end of story. That is why so many people flock to it. If it was difficult it wouldn't have the subs it has. They made it easy, and gave it an easy learning curve to get the masses involved.
Here it is again "AOE only heal spells". Found that in the Conan forums. Taliasin, you care to comment? What I'm hearing from other folks is that Conan has no direct heals, but only AoE heals. I've now heard this from 2 different sources and one of them was a buddy of mine that has played a ton of MMO's and specifically pointed it out to me as being different from WoW. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2045950#2045950
AoC is a bad game too, have you not lurked their forums enough to figure that out?
I'm starting now. I don't put much stock in what is posted when a game is in development because things can change and all that. So I wait till it's released and then I start to pay attention to what people are saying about it. I've even tried to get a trial key, but no such luck so far. In fact I read that the trial keys are not working anyway.
By the way, it's even worse than I thought about healing. Now I'm reading that all heals are heals over time as well. So there's really not even a healing class is there? I don't like that. I prefer the way WoW does it.
People who have never played another mmo may think WoW is difficult, and that is fine they don't know any better, but everyone who has been in the MMo play field since UO knows that WoW is easy. How is this still being discussed? WoW is a very easy MMo, end of story. That is why so many people flock to it. If it was difficult it wouldn't have the subs it has. They made it easy, and gave it an easy learning curve to get the masses involved.
WoW is an easy game to learn, I'll agree with you there. I think there are some tougher aspects, for instance I think PvP is very tough to be good at. What I disagree with most on is whether or not WoW is easier than most MMO's. It's not any easier than any other MMO I have played and it's tougher than a few I have played. For me CoX is an extremely easy MMO to play. My 4 and 5 year old grand kids play it. They are not very good, but they can play it. They absolutely cannot play WoW. Not even close. The only other MMO that I have extensive knowledge of is E&B and WoW and E&B were on par difficulty wise. EvE might be a bit tougher to understand the concepts of play initially, but once you understand the actual gameplay itself is not tougher in my opinion and there can be nothing simpler than increasing your skills in that game. Simply click a button and walk away. That's stupid easy and I hate that about that game. All other MMO's that I have tried, and it's been a bunch, were not difficult to understand, I just didn't like them all that much.
Here it is again "AOE only heal spells". Found that in the Conan forums. Taliasin, you care to comment? What I'm hearing from other folks is that Conan has no direct heals, but only AoE heals. I've now heard this from 2 different sources and one of them was a buddy of mine that has played a ton of MMO's and specifically pointed it out to me as being different from WoW. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2045950#2045950
AoC is a bad game too, have you not lurked their forums enough to figure that out?
People who have never played another mmo may think WoW is difficult, and that is fine they don't know any better, but everyone who has been in the MMo play field since UO knows that WoW is easy. How is this still being discussed? WoW is a very easy MMo, end of story. That is why so many people flock to it. If it was difficult it wouldn't have the subs it has. They made it easy, and gave it an easy learning curve to get the masses involved.
I think you have many of your facts very mixed up. WoW made gameplay much more entertaining for many people and made accessing the game [IE fun] much easier. The game "didn't start" once you reach max level.
There are so many people I know who tried to join EQ/UO after the bulk of the playerbase already reached max levels and they simply gave up. It wasn't because they couldn't understand EQ or that the gameplay was so difficult that they couldn't play the game. It was simply boring, tedious and not enjoyable. Grinding bunnies and bears in UO trying to catch up to your friends already playing deep in dungeons was too boring for most people and not exactly difficult in the slightest. The same is true for EQ, but ten fold worse with its forced grouping mechanics. Honestly was sitting against the wall of karnors castle grinding mobs with a few strangers for hours on end really some epic challenge? How many expansions was it before EQ deviated from the cut/paste boss tactics of stack appropriate spell resist, healers use line of site to avoid boss area effect attack and everyone else tank-n-spank the boss while it is blair witched into a corner? EQ was a hard game, but not due to the complexity of the game itself.
The masses didn't flock to those games because they are designed with the old school mentality that the only way to entertain people is to punish them with long grinds and harsh time sinks. The strength of WoW that continues to draw new people in is that the game offers entertainment from the first minute you log in even if your friends are 70 levels higher than you, you can follow stories and quests while you catch up. Grinding mobs in WoW is better xp/hour than questing, but people primarily quest... why do you think that is?
Games are simply put, more accessible now. There are more ways to play them other than forced group mob grinding in some random unremarkable location. Objective times aren't hyper inflated to simulate a difficult task.
I have just started looking at Conan, so I can not make any over all comparision at this point. However, staying with the Conan example for the moment (the "real time" phrase comes from adverts for the game), both games become easier than when you started. Conan requires you to watch the screen for your targets attacks and defenses, WoW you are just watching for attacks. The "real time" phrase actually refers to the lack of auto attack/auto defense ( I understand that there may be an "auto" mode in setting somewhere, which could change things ). There are some AoE(group) heals and some individual heals, as there are in WoW. Not sure of what the person might have been referencing. But I have played some games where facing did not matter, and it was easier then when facing mattered. And not as much fun for me.
Just in case anyone is interested, I'd like to clear up a few things. The phrase that Age of Conan is using is "Real Combat" not "Real Time". The reason they call it this is because you don't target your enemy, you simply walk to within striking distance of your enemy and you attack in 1 of 3 directions. I believe this increases to 5 directions later in the game. That had me a bit confused, now it makes more sense what they were referring to.
Also, it appears that Taliasin was incorrect about the heals. All appear to be AoE heals and in fact they all appear to be heals over time. There are no direct heals of another player, at least that's what others have posted on the forums and they don't seem to be contradicted by anyone. I'm assuming this means that there are no healing classes because it would seem to be pretty pointless to be a healer in my opinion. Apparently all the classes have some sort of healing skills.
My 4 and 5 year old grand kids play it. They are not very good, but they can play it. They absolutely cannot play WoW. Not even close.
My 2 cousins 5 and 8 love WoW and actually have made it to lvl 70 on 1 character each. The 8 year old uses thottbot, and the 5 year old thinks killing anything in site is fun although gets help from his brother when to go to new areas.
Maybe they arn't the best, but they do play it with a fair amount of ease. There really isn't much to do, and since grinding entertains them both so much they are pretty much near full epics from the different factions. One reason I call WoW easy. Maybe I didn't specify enough in my other post.
They think the little pets are cute so my uncle buys them all the pets that exist so they can have them follow em around. It is a very simple game in that respect. Maybe I just have genius cousins shrug.
My 4 and 5 year old grand kids play it. They are not very good, but they can play it. They absolutely cannot play WoW. Not even close.
My 2 cousins 5 and 8 love WoW and actually have made it to lvl 70 on 1 character each. The 8 year old uses thottbot, and the 5 year old thinks killing anything in site is fun although gets help from his brother when to go to new areas.
Maybe they arn't the best, but they do play it with a fair amount of ease. There really isn't much to do, and since grinding entertains them both so much they are pretty much near full epics from the different factions. One reason I call WoW easy. Maybe I didn't specify enough in my other post.
They think the little pets are cute so my uncle buys them all the pets that exist so they can have them follow em around. It is a very simple game in that respect. Maybe I just have genius cousins shrug.
This could happen in any game. Your cousins are not exactly looking for challenge. I would be willing to bet they haven't even set foot in a level-appropriate dungeon.
That's the whole sticking point here, and why people keep confusing this issue.
WoW can be one of the easiest games on the market. No one is disputing that. No one will ever say that it takes anything but patience to reach level 70. And yes, that is one of the reasons it is so popular.
But if you want a challenge and take the trouble to go looking for one, it is there.
My 4 and 5 year old grand kids play it. They are not very good, but they can play it. They absolutely cannot play WoW. Not even close.
My 2 cousins 5 and 8 love WoW and actually have made it to lvl 70 on 1 character each. The 8 year old uses thottbot, and the 5 year old thinks killing anything in site is fun although gets help from his brother when to go to new areas.
Maybe they arn't the best, but they do play it with a fair amount of ease. There really isn't much to do, and since grinding entertains them both so much they are pretty much near full epics from the different factions. One reason I call WoW easy. Maybe I didn't specify enough in my other post.
They think the little pets are cute so my uncle buys them all the pets that exist so they can have them follow em around. It is a very simple game in that respect. Maybe I just have genius cousins shrug.
This could happen in any game. Your cousins are not exactly looking for challenge. I would be willing to bet they haven't even set foot in a level-appropriate dungeon.
That's the whole sticking point here, and why people keep confusing this issue.
WoW can be one of the easiest games on the market. No one is disputing that. No one will ever say that it takes anything but patience to reach level 70. And yes, that is one of the reasons it is so popular.
But if you want a challenge and take the trouble to go looking for one, it is there.
Any MMO can be easy if you make it easy. So people don't understand what is easy and what isn't easy. That's the problem with mmos. Your playstyle makes a game difficult or easy. Not the game design, which is the case with single player games.
You can't say that civilization don't advance, however, for in every war they kill you in a new way. -Will Rogers
My 4 and 5 year old grand kids play it. They are not very good, but they can play it. They absolutely cannot play WoW. Not even close.
My 2 cousins 5 and 8 love WoW and actually have made it to lvl 70 on 1 character each. The 8 year old uses thottbot, and the 5 year old thinks killing anything in site is fun although gets help from his brother when to go to new areas.
Maybe they arn't the best, but they do play it with a fair amount of ease. There really isn't much to do, and since grinding entertains them both so much they are pretty much near full epics from the different factions. One reason I call WoW easy. Maybe I didn't specify enough in my other post.
They think the little pets are cute so my uncle buys them all the pets that exist so they can have them follow em around. It is a very simple game in that respect. Maybe I just have genius cousins shrug.
There's a HUGE difference between an 8 year old and 5 year old. I'll bet the 5 year old needs quite a bit of help playing WoW. My 4 year old grandson needs no help in playing CoX except for me to put in my userid and password. He even creates his own characters. He needs a bit of help naming them, but that's all.
Besides this isn't about the differences between my grandkids and your cousins. This is about the differences between WoW and CoX. My Grandkids CANNOT play one, they CAN play the other. That was my point. Maybe your cousins are just that good.
Have your cousins played any other MMO and found it impossible?
Any MMO can be easy if you make it easy. So people don't understand what is easy and what isn't easy. That's the problem with mmos. Your playstyle makes a game difficult or easy. Not the game design, which is the case with single player games.
Naw, FFXI is not an easy game. Nor was UO. A lot of games are not easy, and do not allow for children of extremely young ages to even play them.
Instances became repeats in TBC and lost all challenge. Yeah WoW was semi-difficult before its expansion after it though it has lost all originality in its raid scripts. Difficulty out there in WoW? naw it doesn't exist anymore.
Any MMO can be easy if you make it easy. So people don't understand what is easy and what isn't easy. That's the problem with mmos. Your playstyle makes a game difficult or easy. Not the game design, which is the case with single player games.
Naw, FFXI is not an easy game. Nor was UO. A lot of games are not easy, and do not allow for children of extremely young ages to even play them.
Instances became repeats in TBC and lost all challenge. Yeah WoW was semi-difficult before its expansion after it though it has lost all originality in its raid scripts. Difficulty out there in WoW? naw it doesn't exist anymore.
I have not played FFXI nor have I played UO. Please explain to someone who has never played either of these games what made them tough. In other words don't mention Instance X or Quest Y because I have never done them and have nothing to base it on. Just put it into your own words.
I have not played FFXI nor have I played UO. Please explain to someone who has never played either of these games what made them tough. In other words don't mention Instance X or Quest Y because I have never done them and have nothing to base it on. Just put it into your own words.
FFXI mainly due to the constant required group. The class break down prior to the last expansion was very straight forward. DPS did a lot of dmg but was very frail. Tanks could take a beating, but were not dps at all, same for healers as they could heal very well but nothing else (Could not absorb damage or dish it out). The strategy for each fight was a bit tedious, and I don't really consider that a difficult part, but I do consider the constant watch over your group factor the difficult part. There is a lot of ways to die, and set back your entire group hours, along with deleveling with the loss of xp. It is a much more rigid game that requires more attention payed towards it, and it rewarding in its own right for it. The job and sub job system is very interesting, which if I got into it alone it would be an entire reply but it makes the person playing pay attention to how they are going to play off eachother. A White mage would want a blue mage sub job due to the extra mana and buff abilities as a ninja may want a thief for their ability to backstab. It is complicated in its own right, and can be similarly compared to that of the skill tree WoW has if you do it right your golden, but if you don't you won't have the synergies. The game has in depth story lines and quests similar to WoW, but has lock outs if you fail as opposed to WoW which does not.
The over all penalties I believe are what make a game difficult along with the challenge they present. Don't get me wrong Killing Kel'Thuzad was probly my most rewarding experience of any MMo I have played to date, but the challenge went away with TBC with the re-used raid fights.
Ultima Online is a beast of its own. The full loot, kill anyone you want anywhere you want alone made it a very difficult game. Want to kill someone in a town? You could, just make sure you could beat out someone calling guards on you. Want to kill someone after they just downed one of the most difficult monsters in the game? Sure go ahead and kill em, and take their rewards. (Note this was prior to the addition of a different facet which prevented this style of play. It became a very easy game when the risk of being killed anywhere and losing everything went away). The skill system was also very unique in that you had to work skills not levels. Everyone had a max of 225 stats, and 700 skills distributed among as many skills they wanted. Normally people stuck with being a 7x 100 skill template and some mixed combination of str, dex, and intelligence. All spells required reagents to cast, and if you ran out you were done till you restocked. The absence of any over powering items in the game that threw it out of balance for those who played longer or more than others did not exist. It was truly a game of skill the player had.
Again, I am not saying anything negative about WoW as I did enjoy it a lot until I believe they ruined it with TBC, but that isn't important. The important thing is that risk vs reward systems are the games that I see more difficult than time = reward.
Comments
However, one games come to mind quickly that had a similar crafting system that you describe and another just behind that one. While on paper they appear to be more difficult and challenging, they turned out very different in implementation. They turned out to be grindfests of repeating the same clicks over and over and over. Each was designed by devs to cater to the crowd that thinks difficulty is measured by the amount of time spent doing something, regardless of the difficulty of the tasks being repeated.
Some people love time sinks and grind fests and consider them a measurement of achievement and more power to them for being happy. However, time spent does not equate to degree of difficulty, except for testings someones level of patience.
Could you be a bit more specific? When you talk in generalities it's very hard to discuss facts.
You mentioned Conan and it's "real time" combat. Why exactly did you choose the term "real time"? You suggesting that WoW's combat is not "real time"? "real time" to me means that it's happening in real time, as opposed to say "turn based" combat. Well WoW certainly isn't "turn based". There's very little difference in Conan's combat system then WoW's except for the added "left right middle" indicator. How does that make it "real time"?
But let's forget the term "real time" and focus just on difficulty shall we? Is Conan's combat system more difficult? What is really required of the person more than in WoW? That they look at the on-screen information, determine which option of the three has the best chance of landing and choosing that one? Is that more difficult? I would have to say, yes, it is, but only by a small margin. Once you get the idea, it becomes second nature and really requires no extra thought whatsoever.
And let's not jump to any conclusions either. Is that the ONLY change? I'm not all that familiar with Conan's combat system, but I suspect there are a few other differences between it and WoW as well. Is it possible that although Conan is slightly more difficult in this regard, could it be slightly less difficult in some other regard which would balance it out? For example it's my understanding that healing in Conan effects everyone around you. You don't target the person to be healed, you simply cast the heal spell and it heals everyone. I'm not 100% sure of this, but it's what I have been told. Wouldn't you consider that slightly less difficult than in WoW where you must first target the right person to heal? I can't really answer that question because I'm not that familiar with Conan, but you can see how tough it becomes to determine difficulty can't you?
So while some insist that other games are harder, I don't think they really dig down deep into the facts and try to seperate fact from opinion and see the overall picture. They tend to focus on a very small set of circumstances and claim this one circumstance shows the game is more difficult and ignore all the circumstances that might tend to counter that opinion.
That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Could you be a bit more specific? When you talk in generalities it's very hard to discuss facts.
You mentioned Conan and it's "real time" combat. Why exactly did you choose the term "real time"? You suggesting that WoW's combat is not "real time"? "real time" to me means that it's happening in real time, as opposed to say "turn based" combat. Well WoW certainly isn't "turn based". There's very little difference in Conan's combat system then WoW's except for the added "left right middle" indicator. How does that make it "real time"?
But let's forget the term "real time" and focus just on difficulty shall we? Is Conan's combat system more difficult? What is really required of the person more than in WoW? That they look at the on-screen information, determine which option of the three has the best chance of landing and choosing that one? Is that more difficult? I would have to say, yes, it is, but only by a small margin. Once you get the idea, it becomes second nature and really requires no extra thought whatsoever.
And let's not jump to any conclusions either. Is that the ONLY change? I'm not all that familiar with Conan's combat system, but I suspect there are a few other differences between it and WoW as well. Is it possible that although Conan is slightly more difficult in this regard, could it be slightly less difficult in some other regard which would balance it out? For example it's my understanding that healing in Conan effects everyone around you. You don't target the person to be healed, you simply cast the heal spell and it heals everyone. I'm not 100% sure of this, but it's what I have been told. Wouldn't you consider that slightly less difficult than in WoW where you must first target the right person to heal? I can't really answer that question because I'm not that familiar with Conan, but you can see how tough it becomes to determine difficulty can't you?
So while some insist that other games are harder, I don't think they really dig down deep into the facts and try to seperate fact from opinion and see the overall picture. They tend to focus on a very small set of circumstances and claim this one circumstance shows the game is more difficult and ignore all the circumstances that might tend to counter that opinion.
That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
I respect what you are saying Taliasin and it is nice to see someone talking about the whys of gameplay instead of the how long. To a degree I even agree with what you say in many aspects.
Personally I haven't found a degree of challenge in any MMO in years to say that one game is harder than the next overall. There are some games I have found some aspects easier, such as combat in CoH was almost auto pilot easy and not much harder in SWG. Just about every crafting system has been the same click to combine mechanic with some window dressing here and there. The only real differences being the number of clicks and extra time spent staring at progress bars required to make something. Some games quests tell a direction to travel and some games actually put waypoints all over your map negating any sense of discovery or exploration (SWG/Vanguard). There are a number of games that have some standout examples of challenge in certain aspects over other games, but not overall enough to say the entire game is harder. SWG crafting comes to mind here.
All that said though, I haven't really seen anything that would make me say one game overall is spoonfed easy mode compared to the rest of the market. They all basically play the same after you learn your first MMO.
If someone leveled to max in WoW I would expect they could do the same exact thing in any other solo content game without any more difficulty. If someone is a mouth breathing dolt in one game, odds are they won't miraculously become a stand out player in the next game.
Could you be a bit more specific? When you talk in generalities it's very hard to discuss facts.
You mentioned Conan and it's "real time" combat. Why exactly did you choose the term "real time"? You suggesting that WoW's combat is not "real time"? "real time" to me means that it's happening in real time, as opposed to say "turn based" combat. Well WoW certainly isn't "turn based". There's very little difference in Conan's combat system then WoW's except for the added "left right middle" indicator. How does that make it "real time"?
But let's forget the term "real time" and focus just on difficulty shall we? Is Conan's combat system more difficult? What is really required of the person more than in WoW? That they look at the on-screen information, determine which option of the three has the best chance of landing and choosing that one? Is that more difficult? I would have to say, yes, it is, but only by a small margin. Once you get the idea, it becomes second nature and really requires no extra thought whatsoever.
And let's not jump to any conclusions either. Is that the ONLY change? I'm not all that familiar with Conan's combat system, but I suspect there are a few other differences between it and WoW as well. Is it possible that although Conan is slightly more difficult in this regard, could it be slightly less difficult in some other regard which would balance it out? For example it's my understanding that healing in Conan effects everyone around you. You don't target the person to be healed, you simply cast the heal spell and it heals everyone. I'm not 100% sure of this, but it's what I have been told. Wouldn't you consider that slightly less difficult than in WoW where you must first target the right person to heal? I can't really answer that question because I'm not that familiar with Conan, but you can see how tough it becomes to determine difficulty can't you?
So while some insist that other games are harder, I don't think they really dig down deep into the facts and try to seperate fact from opinion and see the overall picture. They tend to focus on a very small set of circumstances and claim this one circumstance shows the game is more difficult and ignore all the circumstances that might tend to counter that opinion.
That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
The problem that I have with Conan claiming they have "real time" combat because they don't have "auto" attacks is that very few skills in WoW actually have this feature either. Most of the skills must be initiatied by the player. Only very basic skills like swinging your weapon, firing your bow or using your wand are automated and only then if you are within range for that skill. For the most part it is the non "auto" attack skills that make or break you in combat. No one gets by simply by initiating combat and walking away from the keyboard. That's a myth perpetuated by the uninformed.
As far as "auto" defense is concerned, I'm curious how this works in Conan. If you have a shield, do you have to "block" with it? And if so, if you don't you get absolutely no value from it whatsoever or just a lower block rate? And does everyone have a shield? I'm not aware of how this works.
As far as the healing goes, perhaps his character only had group heals and no specific heals. This was just a conversation I had with the guy the other day and he'd only had the game a short while and he was explaining some differences between it and WoW and that one specifically struck me as odd.
Another thing I found interesting was that ranged attacks didn't use the features that melee attacks did. In other words casters were pretty much how it is in WoW.
But we are getting off track now, so I'll wrap this up.
I'm not insisting that WoW isn't an easy game to play, I think for the most part it is an easy game. However it's still very similar to most of the other MMO's on the market and those claiming to be "harder" are very subjective and open to interpretation. What 1 person sees as "hard" another person sees as "tedious" and theres a fine line between the two. Also, not everyone is looking for a challenge, some are just looking to be entertained and WoW does a pretty good job of that.
WoW has features like this as well though. Some skills can only be cast at certain times or only have benefit when cast at certain times.
For instance the counterspell skill. If cast when the opponent is casting a skill, then it cancels the skill and prevents skills in that "school" to be silenced for a short period of time. If cast when the opponent is not casting a skill, it does absolutely nothing, but the skill is still used and cannot be used again until the cooldown for the skill expires. This is only one example, there are many others.
There are also a good many skills that can be combined with drastic effects. For instance there's power of the mind which makes the next skill cast to be an instant cast. This is extremely effective when used with a skill that has a long cast time like Pyro-blast which is fairly obvious, but there's also many other uses that are not quite so obvious. For instance if you are chasing someone on a mount, if you stop to cast polymorph on that person, it will take too long to cast and the person will get out of range before the cast can complete, however if you combine it with power of the mind, you have an instant cast polymorph and will dismount the rider. It's uses like that which show the real power of the WoW combat system.
Still other skills can only be cast when certain circumstances have been achieved, like the warriors excute skill which can only be used when the opponents health is below a certain amount. There's skills that only can be used after struck with a critical or only activate after getting a critical hit. Unless you pay particular attention to these types of indicators, you won't be playing your class to it's full potential.
So I have to disagree that LOTRO offers really anything as far as combat goes that WoW doesn't offer. I only played it a short while and only in beta, but nothing struck me as game changing. The combo's added a slight twist on the mechanics, but nothing more.
WoW has features like this as well though. Some skills can only be cast at certain times or only have benefit when cast at certain times.
For instance the counterspell skill. If cast when the opponent is casting a skill, then it cancels the skill and prevents skills in that "school" to be silenced for a short period of time. If cast when the opponent is not casting a skill, it does absolutely nothing, but the skill is still used and cannot be used again until the cooldown for the skill expires. This is only one example, there are many others.
There are also a good many skills that can be combined with drastic effects. For instance there's power of the mind which makes the next skill cast to be an instant cast. This is extremely effective when used with a skill that has a long cast time like Pyro-blast which is fairly obvious, but there's also many other uses that are not quite so obvious. For instance if you are chasing someone on a mount, if you stop to cast polymorph on that person, it will take too long to cast and the person will get out of range before the cast can complete, however if you combine it with power of the mind, you have an instant cast polymorph and will dismount the rider. It's uses like that which show the real power of the WoW combat system.
Still other skills can only be cast when certain circumstances have been achieved, like the warriors excute skill which can only be used when the opponents health is below a certain amount. There's skills that only can be used after struck with a critical or only activate after getting a critical hit. Unless you pay particular attention to these types of indicators, you won't be playing your class to it's full potential.
So I have to disagree that LOTRO offers really anything as far as combat goes that WoW doesn't offer. I only played it a short while and only in beta, but nothing struck me as game changing. The combo's added a slight twist on the mechanics, but nothing more.
Much of this threads scope has been about easymode this or that as if one fantasy MMO is so complex people might have trouble playing it compared to another one. I would love to see one, but the people making such claims haven't really backed up those statements with anything other than some insults to a user base and misconceptions about lengthening time sinks adding complexity.
Honestly I am ready for the next generation of MMOs that all these companies keep promising and not delivering. I still enjoy MMOs for what they are, but outside of a few select things it has been a very long time since I've seen anything that really put me to task over what I have already done in another game.
Here it is again "AOE only heal spells". Found that in the Conan forums. Taliasin, you care to comment? What I'm hearing from other folks is that Conan has no direct heals, but only AoE heals. I've now heard this from 2 different sources and one of them was a buddy of mine that has played a ton of MMO's and specifically pointed it out to me as being different from WoW.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2045950#2045950
AoC is a bad game too, have you not lurked their forums enough to figure that out?
People who have never played another mmo may think WoW is difficult, and that is fine they don't know any better, but everyone who has been in the MMo play field since UO knows that WoW is easy. How is this still being discussed? WoW is a very easy MMo, end of story. That is why so many people flock to it. If it was difficult it wouldn't have the subs it has. They made it easy, and gave it an easy learning curve to get the masses involved.
AoC is a bad game too, have you not lurked their forums enough to figure that out?
I'm starting now. I don't put much stock in what is posted when a game is in development because things can change and all that. So I wait till it's released and then I start to pay attention to what people are saying about it. I've even tried to get a trial key, but no such luck so far. In fact I read that the trial keys are not working anyway.
By the way, it's even worse than I thought about healing. Now I'm reading that all heals are heals over time as well. So there's really not even a healing class is there? I don't like that. I prefer the way WoW does it.
People who have never played another mmo may think WoW is difficult, and that is fine they don't know any better, but everyone who has been in the MMo play field since UO knows that WoW is easy. How is this still being discussed? WoW is a very easy MMo, end of story. That is why so many people flock to it. If it was difficult it wouldn't have the subs it has. They made it easy, and gave it an easy learning curve to get the masses involved.
WoW is an easy game to learn, I'll agree with you there. I think there are some tougher aspects, for instance I think PvP is very tough to be good at. What I disagree with most on is whether or not WoW is easier than most MMO's. It's not any easier than any other MMO I have played and it's tougher than a few I have played. For me CoX is an extremely easy MMO to play. My 4 and 5 year old grand kids play it. They are not very good, but they can play it. They absolutely cannot play WoW. Not even close. The only other MMO that I have extensive knowledge of is E&B and WoW and E&B were on par difficulty wise. EvE might be a bit tougher to understand the concepts of play initially, but once you understand the actual gameplay itself is not tougher in my opinion and there can be nothing simpler than increasing your skills in that game. Simply click a button and walk away. That's stupid easy and I hate that about that game. All other MMO's that I have tried, and it's been a bunch, were not difficult to understand, I just didn't like them all that much.
AoC is a bad game too, have you not lurked their forums enough to figure that out?
People who have never played another mmo may think WoW is difficult, and that is fine they don't know any better, but everyone who has been in the MMo play field since UO knows that WoW is easy. How is this still being discussed? WoW is a very easy MMo, end of story. That is why so many people flock to it. If it was difficult it wouldn't have the subs it has. They made it easy, and gave it an easy learning curve to get the masses involved.
I think you have many of your facts very mixed up. WoW made gameplay much more entertaining for many people and made accessing the game [IE fun] much easier. The game "didn't start" once you reach max level.There are so many people I know who tried to join EQ/UO after the bulk of the playerbase already reached max levels and they simply gave up. It wasn't because they couldn't understand EQ or that the gameplay was so difficult that they couldn't play the game. It was simply boring, tedious and not enjoyable. Grinding bunnies and bears in UO trying to catch up to your friends already playing deep in dungeons was too boring for most people and not exactly difficult in the slightest. The same is true for EQ, but ten fold worse with its forced grouping mechanics. Honestly was sitting against the wall of karnors castle grinding mobs with a few strangers for hours on end really some epic challenge? How many expansions was it before EQ deviated from the cut/paste boss tactics of stack appropriate spell resist, healers use line of site to avoid boss area effect attack and everyone else tank-n-spank the boss while it is blair witched into a corner? EQ was a hard game, but not due to the complexity of the game itself.
The masses didn't flock to those games because they are designed with the old school mentality that the only way to entertain people is to punish them with long grinds and harsh time sinks. The strength of WoW that continues to draw new people in is that the game offers entertainment from the first minute you log in even if your friends are 70 levels higher than you, you can follow stories and quests while you catch up. Grinding mobs in WoW is better xp/hour than questing, but people primarily quest... why do you think that is?
Games are simply put, more accessible now. There are more ways to play them other than forced group mob grinding in some random unremarkable location. Objective times aren't hyper inflated to simulate a difficult task.
Also, it appears that Taliasin was incorrect about the heals. All appear to be AoE heals and in fact they all appear to be heals over time. There are no direct heals of another player, at least that's what others have posted on the forums and they don't seem to be contradicted by anyone. I'm assuming this means that there are no healing classes because it would seem to be pretty pointless to be a healer in my opinion. Apparently all the classes have some sort of healing skills.
My 2 cousins 5 and 8 love WoW and actually have made it to lvl 70 on 1 character each. The 8 year old uses thottbot, and the 5 year old thinks killing anything in site is fun although gets help from his brother when to go to new areas.
Maybe they arn't the best, but they do play it with a fair amount of ease. There really isn't much to do, and since grinding entertains them both so much they are pretty much near full epics from the different factions. One reason I call WoW easy. Maybe I didn't specify enough in my other post.
They think the little pets are cute so my uncle buys them all the pets that exist so they can have them follow em around. It is a very simple game in that respect. Maybe I just have genius cousins shrug.
My 2 cousins 5 and 8 love WoW and actually have made it to lvl 70 on 1 character each. The 8 year old uses thottbot, and the 5 year old thinks killing anything in site is fun although gets help from his brother when to go to new areas.
Maybe they arn't the best, but they do play it with a fair amount of ease. There really isn't much to do, and since grinding entertains them both so much they are pretty much near full epics from the different factions. One reason I call WoW easy. Maybe I didn't specify enough in my other post.
They think the little pets are cute so my uncle buys them all the pets that exist so they can have them follow em around. It is a very simple game in that respect. Maybe I just have genius cousins shrug.
This could happen in any game. Your cousins are not exactly looking for challenge. I would be willing to bet they haven't even set foot in a level-appropriate dungeon.
That's the whole sticking point here, and why people keep confusing this issue.
WoW can be one of the easiest games on the market. No one is disputing that. No one will ever say that it takes anything but patience to reach level 70. And yes, that is one of the reasons it is so popular.
But if you want a challenge and take the trouble to go looking for one, it is there.
My 2 cousins 5 and 8 love WoW and actually have made it to lvl 70 on 1 character each. The 8 year old uses thottbot, and the 5 year old thinks killing anything in site is fun although gets help from his brother when to go to new areas.
Maybe they arn't the best, but they do play it with a fair amount of ease. There really isn't much to do, and since grinding entertains them both so much they are pretty much near full epics from the different factions. One reason I call WoW easy. Maybe I didn't specify enough in my other post.
They think the little pets are cute so my uncle buys them all the pets that exist so they can have them follow em around. It is a very simple game in that respect. Maybe I just have genius cousins shrug.
This could happen in any game. Your cousins are not exactly looking for challenge. I would be willing to bet they haven't even set foot in a level-appropriate dungeon.
That's the whole sticking point here, and why people keep confusing this issue.
WoW can be one of the easiest games on the market. No one is disputing that. No one will ever say that it takes anything but patience to reach level 70. And yes, that is one of the reasons it is so popular.
But if you want a challenge and take the trouble to go looking for one, it is there.
You can't say that civilization don't advance, however, for in every war they kill you in a new way.
-Will Rogers
My 2 cousins 5 and 8 love WoW and actually have made it to lvl 70 on 1 character each. The 8 year old uses thottbot, and the 5 year old thinks killing anything in site is fun although gets help from his brother when to go to new areas.
Maybe they arn't the best, but they do play it with a fair amount of ease. There really isn't much to do, and since grinding entertains them both so much they are pretty much near full epics from the different factions. One reason I call WoW easy. Maybe I didn't specify enough in my other post.
They think the little pets are cute so my uncle buys them all the pets that exist so they can have them follow em around. It is a very simple game in that respect. Maybe I just have genius cousins shrug.
There's a HUGE difference between an 8 year old and 5 year old. I'll bet the 5 year old needs quite a bit of help playing WoW. My 4 year old grandson needs no help in playing CoX except for me to put in my userid and password. He even creates his own characters. He needs a bit of help naming them, but that's all.
Besides this isn't about the differences between my grandkids and your cousins. This is about the differences between WoW and CoX. My Grandkids CANNOT play one, they CAN play the other. That was my point. Maybe your cousins are just that good.
Have your cousins played any other MMO and found it impossible?
After lvl 20, it gets easier.. Plus, they did away with some of the Elites.
Even before this.. to me, it was a easier learning curve than some of the other MMO's I have played over the years.
IMHO anyway
"Huntress"
Naw, FFXI is not an easy game. Nor was UO. A lot of games are not easy, and do not allow for children of extremely young ages to even play them.
Instances became repeats in TBC and lost all challenge. Yeah WoW was semi-difficult before its expansion after it though it has lost all originality in its raid scripts. Difficulty out there in WoW? naw it doesn't exist anymore.
Naw, FFXI is not an easy game. Nor was UO. A lot of games are not easy, and do not allow for children of extremely young ages to even play them.
Instances became repeats in TBC and lost all challenge. Yeah WoW was semi-difficult before its expansion after it though it has lost all originality in its raid scripts. Difficulty out there in WoW? naw it doesn't exist anymore.
I have not played FFXI nor have I played UO. Please explain to someone who has never played either of these games what made them tough. In other words don't mention Instance X or Quest Y because I have never done them and have nothing to base it on. Just put it into your own words.
FFXI mainly due to the constant required group. The class break down prior to the last expansion was very straight forward. DPS did a lot of dmg but was very frail. Tanks could take a beating, but were not dps at all, same for healers as they could heal very well but nothing else (Could not absorb damage or dish it out). The strategy for each fight was a bit tedious, and I don't really consider that a difficult part, but I do consider the constant watch over your group factor the difficult part. There is a lot of ways to die, and set back your entire group hours, along with deleveling with the loss of xp. It is a much more rigid game that requires more attention payed towards it, and it rewarding in its own right for it. The job and sub job system is very interesting, which if I got into it alone it would be an entire reply but it makes the person playing pay attention to how they are going to play off eachother. A White mage would want a blue mage sub job due to the extra mana and buff abilities as a ninja may want a thief for their ability to backstab. It is complicated in its own right, and can be similarly compared to that of the skill tree WoW has if you do it right your golden, but if you don't you won't have the synergies. The game has in depth story lines and quests similar to WoW, but has lock outs if you fail as opposed to WoW which does not.
The over all penalties I believe are what make a game difficult along with the challenge they present. Don't get me wrong Killing Kel'Thuzad was probly my most rewarding experience of any MMo I have played to date, but the challenge went away with TBC with the re-used raid fights.
Ultima Online is a beast of its own. The full loot, kill anyone you want anywhere you want alone made it a very difficult game. Want to kill someone in a town? You could, just make sure you could beat out someone calling guards on you. Want to kill someone after they just downed one of the most difficult monsters in the game? Sure go ahead and kill em, and take their rewards. (Note this was prior to the addition of a different facet which prevented this style of play. It became a very easy game when the risk of being killed anywhere and losing everything went away). The skill system was also very unique in that you had to work skills not levels. Everyone had a max of 225 stats, and 700 skills distributed among as many skills they wanted. Normally people stuck with being a 7x 100 skill template and some mixed combination of str, dex, and intelligence. All spells required reagents to cast, and if you ran out you were done till you restocked. The absence of any over powering items in the game that threw it out of balance for those who played longer or more than others did not exist. It was truly a game of skill the player had.
Again, I am not saying anything negative about WoW as I did enjoy it a lot until I believe they ruined it with TBC, but that isn't important. The important thing is that risk vs reward systems are the games that I see more difficult than time = reward.